A single person should not be allowed to disband the group

jommerryrth

Was just in fg1 and one person took the shortcut and 3 of us didn't. that person who took the shortcut soloed the last boss and disbanded the group while the 3 of us were still fighting the other bosses. Not having seen the group was disbanded i hit my B button on my controller (PC EU in gamepad mode) and found myself outside the dungeon.

! person should not get to decide that for the rest of the group.

MidniteOwl1913

I think only the leader can disband the group... But yes it's really rude to disband, it often won't leave time for questers to finish even if the group is all there at the final boss.

I don't even know why disband exists. If the first leader leaves, the lead passes until there are only 2 left. It seems kinda of pointless as an option and opens the opportunity for the rude behavior you mentioned.

BTW I have so much trouble with the jump from the river to the final boss I often just solo the in-between boss in FG1 because it's just easier.

tsaescishoeshiner

Disband should definitely exist, but not for random dungeon queue. It's convenient in other places, but causes problems in the queue.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

For groups formed through the dungeon finder I think disband should be a majority vote only. If three out of four agree there is not reason to try to continue the dungeon. Being leader should not allow someone to essentially quit the group without the quit group penalty if the others wish to go on.

Grizzbeorn

That wouldn't happen when running with a pre-made.
Choose to group with John J. Rando, you get what you get.

But I get it, you don't get transmutes running with pre-mades.
Choices, choices...

NoSoup

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

That wouldn't happen when running with a pre-made.
Choose to group with John J. Rando, you get what you get.

But I get it, you don't get transmutes running with pre-mades.
Choices, choices...

You still get transmutes running with premades, you just have to queue for the random dungon.

NoticeMeArkay

This perfectly express the utterly selfish approach a far to large portion of the playerbase presents when joining group content, baring the exact mark of an infamous lack of empathy and consideration me and many others are met with nowadays when joining the random dungeon queue. In no relation to our characterlevel or expertise.

Let's blame the people who are open to playing with others, those who don't bother anyone and ask to do exactly what this game feature claims to offer. Not those that mistreat the queue as a "Serve-Yourself-Only" kinda thing and behave irrationally agressive when being called out. Making their best attempt to exploit the queue to quickly enter a dungeon and drop 3 more people who patiently waited for their turn as soon as the loading screen ends.

Oh boy, I simply can't wait for Zenimax to do something about it. I'm incredibly tired of this.

ForzaRammer

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

This perfectly express the utterly selfish approach a far to large portion of the playerbase presents when joining group content, baring the exact mark of an infamous lack of empathy and consideration me and many others are met with nowadays when joining the random dungeon queue. In no relation to our characterlevel or expertise.

Let's blame the people who are open to playing with others, those who don't bother anyone and ask to do exactly what this game feature claims to offer. Not those that mistreat the queue as a "Serve-Yourself-Only" kinda thing and behave irrationally agressive when being called out. Making their best attempt to exploit the queue to quickly enter a dungeon and drop 3 more people who patiently waited for their turn as soon as the loading screen ends.

Oh boy, I simply can't wait for Zenimax to do something about it. I'm incredibly tired of this.

When you have people keep pushing “pug means 0 expectations” message, nothing will change, and you also have the hypocrites with “expectations for supports but not dd” nonsense

NoticeMeArkay

ForzaRammer wrote: »

When you have people keep pushing “pug means 0 expectations” message, nothing will change, and you also have the hypocrites with “expectations for supports but not dd” nonsense

At this point I'm willing to believe that those aren't expectations anymore, but mere excuses used to their own ego. In an awful attempt to keep a good looking profile while being an utterly [Not Forum Appropriate Term] in queue.

F.e. I actually am happy that players aren't able to teleport outside a dungeon during an active run anymore. Why?
Because in late august last year me and my friends stopped using the random queue entirely as every single day, at the exact same time at which we'd do our runs, we'd befall victim to the same player over and over again.

He, who refuses to run anything else but Fungal Grotto but doesn't want to be bothered with the penalty timer when leaving. Also conveniently playing the Tank, so he simply teleports outside and holds everybody hostage until one gives in and kicks him from the group. Remaining for another hour or longer in queue in hopes of finding a new tank.

Only to end up with the same exact [Not Forum Appropriate Term] as before. I hope that guy stubs his toe every morning on the way to his computer. He literally bullied two of my friends out of the dungeon queue forever by keeping this up for 5 months straight. No sign of zos, no matter how many tickets regarding him exploiting the queue mechanic we had send.

CrashTest

No way because that would punish premades and all grouping everywhere in the entire game across every content in PvE and PvP.

Make your own group to go at your own pace if you don't like random pugs.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about dungeon groups.

Thank you for your understanding

jommerryrth

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about dungeon groups.

Thank you for your understanding

I think it's more about please zos stop doing this to us and allowing others do this to us but you know 'toe may to, toe mah to"

Tyrant_Tim

Definitely should be a majority vote, agreed.

Daoin

its right this, disbanding among lot of things to do with group finder should be changed. but the latest encounter with disbanding i had was a guy throwing insults then when could not get the kick vote he wanted just disbanded the group.

code65536

Disband does not work with Group Finder groups... until after the dungeon has been completed (final boss defeated).

Once the dungeon has been completed, it's no longer a GF group and regular grouping rules apply. FG1 is a bit of an exceptional cases; in most dungeons, you can't skip bosses, or if you do, joining encounter in progress will pull the rest of the group to the final boss. FG1 is a bit of a rare exception where you can skip to the last boss and there's no joining encounter.

For the vast majority of dungeons, this would be a non-issue.

Ultimately, the problem isn't the disband, it's that they ran ahead and killed the final boss. You should've followed them instead of staying behind to fight the side bosses, because they just killed the last boss without you being there for the kill, so you lose out on the loot from the final boss kill. So even if they weren't allowed to disband, you just lost the arguably most important final boss loot.

Blood_again

For LFG-tool group - yes please. Leader of such group has limited permissions - can't kick members by will. So why allowed to disband?
We can see that limitation feature exists here. Just limit one more action.

For manually created group this option should stay. Well, actually 50/50.
It is not must have, but it is convenient to regroup. Well, skilled leaders reset instances with normal/vet toggle.
There are some exceptions like Craglorn group dungeons, but I see no use to rerun them with big groups. It is often duo.
So actually disband button may leave totally.

code65536

Blood_again wrote: »

For LFG-tool group - yes please. Leader of such group has limited permissions - can't kick members by will. So why allowed to disband?
We can see that limitation feature exists here. Just limit one more action.

The limitation already exists. The key here is that the final boss died, which meant that the activity had completed, so that it's no longer an Activity Finder group. At this point, they can disband, kick, invite a 5th player, etc., at will.

Daoin

code65536 wrote: »

Disband does not work with Group Finder groups... until after the dungeon has been completed (final boss defeated).

Once the dungeon has been completed, it's no longer a GF group and regular grouping rules apply. FG1 is a bit of an exceptional cases; in most dungeons, you can't skip bosses, or if you do, joining encounter in progress will pull the rest of the group to the final boss. FG1 is a bit of a rare exception where you can skip to the last boss and there's no joining encounter.

For the vast majority of dungeons, this would be a non-issue.

BTW, the problem isn't the disband, it's that they ran ahead and killed the final boss. You should've followed thm instead of staying behind to fight the side bosses, because they just killed the last boss without you being there for the kill, so you lose out on the loot from the final boss kill. So even if they weren't allowed to disband, you just lost the arguably most important final boss loot.

it was CoA 1 we were at last boss he did disband the group we are not allowed to name and shame but i have screenshots of his rants, just like i take screenshots (used to) regularly of rants in randon group findner so when friends complained i had had proof that the attitudes in regular group finder is a daily thing not just a freak and unfortunate encounter, i say used to to because i just have not been able to force myself to do do any random groups for weeks now. his exact words were 'hey morons, boss is dead' as he was obviously moving ahead of us, but as we approached last boss although the other 2 were dead last was still there, then the disband

jommerryrth

code65536 wrote: »

Disband does not work with Group Finder groups... until after the dungeon has been completed (final boss defeated).

You should've followed them instead of staying behind to fight the side bosses.

No. no we shpuldn't. And one person should not be allowed to force the other three who don't want to skip to be required to skip.

code65536

Thy_Game_Is_Over wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Disband does not work with Group Finder groups... until after the dungeon has been completed (final boss defeated).

You should've followed them instead of staying behind to fight the side bosses.

No. no we shpuldn't. And one person should not be allowed to force the other three who don't want to skip to be required to skip.

But the fact of the matter is that in a dungeon like FG1, they can, and that's not ever going to change unless the dungeon itself gets a major redesign. In most dungeons, you can't skip ahead like this, but for a few very old dungeons like FG1, you can. And as long as that's a thing, then if you want the final boss loot, you have only two options: Vote-kick them. Or follow them.

Again, this has nothing to do with disbanding. Disbanding the group is salt on the wound and makes the problem worse, but the main problem is that they ran ahead and killed the final boss without you. Next time, vote-kick (that's what it's there for). Or follow along.

Braffin

Agreed, there is no real need for such a function, as it's sufficient to leave group regularily.

Dagoth_Rac

Many early dungeons have optional bosses. Fungal Grotto, Wayrest Sewers, Darkshade Caverns, Elden Hollow. Probably a few more I am forgetting. And many DLC dungeons have optional bosses. Graven Deep, Black Drake Villa, Unhallowed Grave. Lots more. I have never seen anyone do an optional boss in a pug run without being explicit from the start that they wanted to do the optional bosses. And I have never heard a complaint about it in any dungeon except Fungal Grotto.

I think ZOS got too cute with the Super Mario Bros style jumping games in FG. They should add some rope bridges or something to make those optional bosses in FG1 (and they are quite clearly designed as optional, based on the pledge quests, which only ever need required bosses) easier to bypass. Let people skip them in the same way they skip the rat guy in Wayrest or the alit in Elden Hollow or the dwemer sphere in Darkshade, or any of the million optional bosses in DLC dungeons. It is not as intuitive in FG1 which bosses are required and which are optional, compared to other dungeons.

Basically, I don't think it is reasonable to get mad at people for skipping optional content. Expecting a pug group to only do the required parts of the activity should be the standard. If you want to do extra, optional content, ask at beginning of dungeon. However, ZOS should make it easier to bypass the optional content and more obvious what is required versus optional, especially in FG1.

jommerryrth

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Many early dungeons have optional bosses. Fungal Grotto, Wayrest Sewers, Darkshade Caverns, Elden Hollow. Probably a few more I am forgetting. And many DLC dungeons have optional bosses. Graven Deep, Black Drake Villa, Unhallowed Grave. Lots more. I have never seen anyone do an optional boss in a pug run without being explicit from the start that they wanted to do the optional bosses. And I have never heard a complaint about it in any dungeon except Fungal Grotto.

I think ZOS got too cute with the Super Mario Bros style jumping games in FG. They should add some rope bridges or something to make those optional bosses in FG1 (and they are quite clearly designed as optional, based on the pledge quests, which only ever need required bosses) easier to bypass. Let people skip them in the same way they skip the rat guy in Wayrest or the alit in Elden Hollow or the dwemer sphere in Darkshade, or any of the million optional bosses in DLC dungeons. It is not as intuitive in FG1 which bosses are required and which are optional, compared to other dungeons.

Basically, I don't think it is reasonable to get mad at people for skipping optional content. Expecting a pug group to only do the required parts of the activity should be the standard. If you want to do extra, optional content, ask at beginning of dungeon. However, ZOS should make it easier to bypass the optional content and more obvious what is required versus optional, especially in FG1.

well in this case 3 of the 4 people in the group clearly wanted the full dungeon

code65536

Thy_Game_Is_Over wrote: »

well in this case 3 of the 4 people in the group clearly wanted the full dungeon

Then a vote-kick was clearly the solution.

jommerryrth

code65536 wrote: »

Thy_Game_Is_Over wrote: »

well in this case 3 of the 4 people in the group clearly wanted the full dungeon

Then a vote-kick was clearly the solution.

the vote kick is not the solution. the solution is to not allow 1 person to decide to disband the group. That's the op message and i stand by it.

ForzaRammer

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

When you have people keep pushing “pug means 0 expectations” message, nothing will change, and you also have the hypocrites with “expectations for supports but not dd” nonsense

At this point I'm willing to believe that those aren't expectations anymore, but mere excuses used to their own ego. In an awful attempt to keep a good looking profile while being an utterly [Not Forum Appropriate Term] in queue.

F.e. I actually am happy that players aren't able to teleport outside a dungeon during an active run anymore. Why?
Because in late august last year me and my friends stopped using the random queue entirely as every single day, at the exact same time at which we'd do our runs, we'd befall victim to the same player over and over again.

He, who refuses to run anything else but Fungal Grotto but doesn't want to be bothered with the penalty timer when leaving. Also conveniently playing the Tank, so he simply teleports outside and holds everybody hostage until one gives in and kicks him from the group. Remaining for another hour or longer in queue in hopes of finding a new tank.

Only to end up with the same exact [Not Forum Appropriate Term] as before. I hope that guy stubs his toe every morning on the way to his computer. He literally bullied two of my friends out of the dungeon queue forever by keeping this up for 5 months straight. No sign of zos, no matter how many tickets regarding him exploiting the queue mechanic we had send.

And are you doing legit dps? Because if you can’t fill expectations you should not expect others to do so.

If your dps is fine, you can just tell him “finishing current dungeon is faster”, and most people would not self sabotage.

code65536

Thy_Game_Is_Over wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Thy_Game_Is_Over wrote: »

well in this case 3 of the 4 people in the group clearly wanted the full dungeon

Then a vote-kick was clearly the solution.

the vote kick is not the solution. the solution is to not allow 1 person to decide to disband the group. That's the op message and i stand by it.

I don't know why you're hung up about the disband. By the time the disband happened, you had already been screwed out of the final boss kill. And the disband was possible only because the final boss had been killed. Again, the problem isn't that he disbanded the group. The problem is that he killed the final boss and completed the dungeon without you. Disbanding is a red herring.

MidniteOwl1913

code65536 wrote: »

Thy_Game_Is_Over wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Thy_Game_Is_Over wrote: »

well in this case 3 of the 4 people in the group clearly wanted the full dungeon

Then a vote-kick was clearly the solution.

the vote kick is not the solution. the solution is to not allow 1 person to decide to disband the group. That's the op message and i stand by it.

I don't know why you're hung up about the disband. By the time the disband happened, you had already been screwed out of the final boss kill. And the disband was possible only because the final boss had been killed. Again, the problem isn't that he disbanded the group. The problem is that he killed the final boss and completed the dungeon without you. Disbanding is a red herring.

My problem with vote to kick is it's time-consuming. FG1 is a short dungeon, the runner might be done killing the boss and disbanding the group before everyone votes, and some people will never vote to kick for some reason not matter with the offending player has done.

peacenote

code65536 wrote: »

Disband does not work with Group Finder groups... until after the dungeon has been completed (final boss defeated).

Once the dungeon has been completed, it's no longer a GF group and regular grouping rules apply.

This is important (bolded emphasis mine). There are scenarios where people start as a regular group, use GF queuing, and then go back to what they were doing as a regular group before the queue. There are other scenarios where people use the GF queue, enjoy their time together, and then continue to play other content grouped. This can occur either with all four players or a subset of them.

Disband has many uses in regular groups. It would be illogical, confusing, and feel like a bug if the disband option remained missing as grouped people reverted from a GF group to a regular group in the scenarios I described above. Whispers and yelling can be used for griefing too -- should we remove those features from the game?

The solution is to report a player if they are being toxic (insulting team members), block them, and/or accept that in rare instances one person can end up disbanding a group prematurely for three others. It doesn't make sense to remove functionality for a small anomaly when everything is working as intended a large percentage of the time, and its removal would also cause issues in alternate scenarios where it is being used effectively. In my opinion, the disband functionality doesn't need to change.

Since we've established that the ability to disband is already disallowed until a dungeon is complete, one could argue that what we're really talking about here is if "dungeon complete" is the correct flag to signal that a GF group goes back to being a regular group. I am not sure there is a better one. The community as a whole would greatly dislike a tracker for "all bosses complete" instead of "dungeon complete" since many people do all agree to skip the optional bosses. Usually it is the majority, not the minority. Putting the flag on the players instead of the dungeon (for example, group reverts to a non-GF-group when all players have left the dungeon) means the game would have to track four triggers instead of one, and could result in different scenarios where the group couldn't be disbanded properly, like someone in the group logs out while they are still in the dungeon.

Personally, I think what we have today is the best configuration.

jommerryrth

There's no justification for disbanding a group. people can choose to leave the instance or the group at any time. The issue is one person deciding for everyone else what they must do. One person should not get that right to decide for the others, esp when the others have clearly decided to play together. There's nothing illogical or confusing or buggy about people deciding for themselves how to play the game that they paid for.

IndyMike26

I’m in the camp there shouldn’t even be a disband option. What’s the point? You don’t want to be in the group anymore, then leave. All the others can do the same thing — I don’t need someone to disband it