This is why nobody dies in PvP

OBJnoob

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

They already did this for the no proc campaign, and its completely dead most days. People liked the novelty but that novelty quickly wore off.

Doesn't help that ZOS doesn't support the no-proc campaign at all; there isn't a single up to date list on what sets work there. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't work there do. It was a failed experiment.

Yeah totally this. On my platform Ravenwatch has pretty much always been dead. I can't remember what it was called before Sotha Sil but guess what... It was dead then.

So I'm not as sure as some others that the no-proc thing was what scared everyone away. But they really did a poor job with it. Some procs work... Some sets that don't quite seem to be procs don't work, and there's no list. Someone should be fired over that TBH. It's been years.

@Iriidius I agree with your comment to my idea. I proposed a couple things... And I would only want whatever is best. But I stand by one thing I said-- it needs to be a tool already available, because us console players just don't have many buttons left for functionality.

JerBearESO

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

PhoenixGrey

JerBearESO wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

You love AFK sets ?

But I get it, proc sets are like an AI bot which can play the game for you in eso while you can concentrate IRL.

CameraBeardThePirate

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

You love AFK sets ?

But I get it, proc sets are like an AI bot which can play the game for you in eso while you can concentrate IRL.

Saying all procs are AFK sets is a generalization. There are absolutely brain-dead proc sets, but calling for all proc sets to get removed from PvP isn't a good solution - that much is extremely obvious from the horrible state of no-proc Cyrodiil.

PhoenixGrey

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

You love AFK sets ?

But I get it, proc sets are like an AI bot which can play the game for you in eso while you can concentrate IRL.

Saying all procs are AFK sets is a generalization. There are absolutely brain-dead proc sets, but calling for all proc sets to get removed from PvP isn't a good solution - that much is extremely obvious from the horrible state of no-proc Cyrodiil.

Maybe enable cp in the campaign ?

I mean ppl want to take advantage of fully leveled toons or see some kind of progression

Kind of a no brainer I think

CameraBeardThePirate

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

You love AFK sets ?

But I get it, proc sets are like an AI bot which can play the game for you in eso while you can concentrate IRL.

Saying all procs are AFK sets is a generalization. There are absolutely brain-dead proc sets, but calling for all proc sets to get removed from PvP isn't a good solution - that much is extremely obvious from the horrible state of no-proc Cyrodiil.

Maybe enable cp in the campaign ?

That would help nothing, and wouldn't change the fact that ZOS doesn't support the campaign in any way with any information or notifications about which sets work and which don't. No-proc has low damage, and CP would only exacerbate the issue by making everyone tankier. It also doesn't change the fact that there just aren't enough no proc sets to have any semblance of build diversity or theory crafting.

Besides, I think most people would MUCH rather have a no-cp, proc enabled campaign back.

olsborg

StaticWave wrote: »

The combination of Undeath passive, CP mitigation, block mitigation, and burst heal potency is why nobody seems to die. Undeath needs to be nerfed in PvP along with a rework to block healing if we wish to see the tank meta disappears.

Hell yes, so much. I strongly agree with nerfing undeath passive and blockhealing (in pvp), it just makes the game boring and too easy.

JerBearESO

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

You love AFK sets ?

But I get it, proc sets are like an AI bot which can play the game for you in eso while you can concentrate IRL.

No, not those. Like way of fire is just throwing on extra damage you don't have to think about. I get that's annoying.

An example of a good proc could be Winterborn where your only frost damage is from force pulse, thus turning that ability into an occasional burst ability rather than just a spamable. I do this on my mage style stam sorc, and also on my arcanist with its dot having the delayed frost damage morph.

When procs offer ability controlled playstyle enhancement, they are a good thing

PhoenixGrey

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

You love AFK sets ?

But I get it, proc sets are like an AI bot which can play the game for you in eso while you can concentrate IRL.

Saying all procs are AFK sets is a generalization. There are absolutely brain-dead proc sets, but calling for all proc sets to get removed from PvP isn't a good solution - that much is extremely obvious from the horrible state of no-proc Cyrodiil.

Maybe enable cp in the campaign ?

That would help nothing, and wouldn't change the fact that ZOS doesn't support the campaign in any way with any information or notifications about which sets work and which don't. No-proc has low damage, and CP would only exacerbate the issue by making everyone tankier. It also doesn't change the fact that there just aren't enough no proc sets to have any semblance of build diversity or theory crafting.

Besides, I think most people would MUCH rather have a no-cp, proc enabled campaign back.

Not sure how much sense does a no cp campaign make where everyone wears exactly the same combination of proc sets

That is the biggest problem in bgs right now and player skill has completely been taken out of the equation where you apply 3 dots and go afk.

xHotguy6pack

No proc CP Cyrodiil was very full when it happened patches ago. It also showed what classes and skill were underperforming. It also showed the actual skill difference in each player. There were countless players who were so-called "good" who who die almost instantly cause they couldn't crutch on proc sets to play for them. Removing proc sets from Cyrodiil is 100% the answer to every single balancing issue this game has. Proc Sets have no business being in PvP and anybody who defends proc sets arent good at the game and relies way too much on sets to do the work for them. There's a reason PvP is a dying mode. There's a reason most top PvPers have left. Now all you have is casuals running around with 2 or three proc sets thinking they are good at the game.

PhoenixGrey

JerBearESO wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

Really sick of people trying to gut out over half the games equip sets for made up reasons.... Why so many procists? I looooove proc sets. Yes, the overperforming ones need to be nerfed, for sure. I hate when certain procs becomes waaay OP. But to cry for full removal of procs altogether is just wrong. Procs make for build creativity! I can't tell you how many awesome builds I've made over the years that centered around a proc effect thematically.

Procs are GOOD! Overpowered procs failing to receive nerfs are bad. No different than a stat set that would give 1200 wep/spell damage. That would be baaaad, overpowered, but would not justify people demanding stats be disabled.

You love AFK sets ?

But I get it, proc sets are like an AI bot which can play the game for you in eso while you can concentrate IRL.

No, not those. Like way of fire is just throwing on extra damage you don't have to think about. I get that's annoying.

An example of a good proc could be Winterborn where your only frost damage is from force pulse, thus turning that ability into an occasional burst ability rather than just a spamable. I do this on my mage style stam sorc, and also on my arcanist with its dot having the delayed frost damage morph.

When procs offer ability controlled playstyle enhancement, they are a good thing

I get what you are saying but we can’t even consider most sets as no one uses them right now.

The meta right now is all about 3 afk proc sets which are busted af.
I have been in bgs where everyone is wearing exactly the same sets

OBJnoob

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

No proc CP Cyrodiil was very full when it happened patches ago. It also showed what classes and skill were underperforming. It also showed the actual skill difference in each player. There were countless players who were so-called "good" who who die almost instantly cause they couldn't crutch on proc sets to play for them. Removing proc sets from Cyrodiil is 100% the answer to every single balancing issue this game has. Proc Sets have no business being in PvP and anybody who defends proc sets arent good at the game and relies way too much on sets to do the work for them. There's a reason PvP is a dying mode. There's a reason most top PvPers have left. Now all you have is casuals running around with 2 or three proc sets thinking they are good at the game.

I think you're exaggerating a little but I do mostly agree.

The thing is my mind takes it even further. I don't talk about it much (ever until now,) but it isn't just the shooting fireballs and cleanses that are procs. Everybody complains about the things with visual effects but nobody seems to mind stat procs. They don't hate on pariah... Don't hate on clever alchemist... Don't hate on briarheart or ravager.

I don't see the difference personally. I'd much rather if every pvp set were just constant value stats. I don't see why shadow of the red mountain, for random example, is considered "AFK damage" and therefore skill-less but popping a potion for 600 extra damage is super skillful and "lining up burst combos." You can either do 5000 extra damage instantly or you can have 500 damage added to everything you do for the next 20 seconds. What's the difference?

Everybody picks procs that "synergize with their build," which is just another way of saying "happens from crap you do anyway." Critically healing yourself while on backbar? Doing direct critical damage? Debuffing an enemy? All things that just organically happen during a rotation anyway. Pretending this takes more skill than something like defilers or way of fire is just that-- pretending.

It isn't really about what does or doesn't take skill to me. It's all pretty easy... And to do it well takes a bit of skill -shrug- But what bugs me about it is it just contributes to the overall problem of people tanking up and only going on offense during burst windows every 15 seconds. And if it doesn't work then you turtle some more. Laaame.

Seems to me like fights used to be more continuous, two-sided, and simultaneous. Or maybe that's just nostalgia... But I miss it.

Turtle_Bot

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

No proc CP Cyrodiil was very full when it happened patches ago. It also showed what classes and skill were underperforming. It also showed the actual skill difference in each player. There were countless players who were so-called "good" who who die almost instantly cause they couldn't crutch on proc sets to play for them. Removing proc sets from Cyrodiil is 100% the answer to every single balancing issue this game has. Proc Sets have no business being in PvP and anybody who defends proc sets arent good at the game and relies way too much on sets to do the work for them. There's a reason PvP is a dying mode. There's a reason most top PvPers have left. Now all you have is casuals running around with 2 or three proc sets thinking they are good at the game.

At this point, I'd actually like to see this happen. We might finally see a proper rework for sorcerers as a class if they actually do this, since the class won't have its proc sets to carry it/mask its issues anymore and people would finally see the class for what it has become instead of the current "weapon skill, proc, streak, repeat" class that it has sadly been forced into over the past 5+ years.

I played my sorc in no CP for a while back before the U35 gutting of the class and the class was ok back then. It could hold its own against the top classes at the time (plar and DK), but was still behind them for raw power and suvivability, but that was because most players didn't know how to fight against the class (or just fight in general). This is because the class (and broader game in general) has been nothing but procs for years now so players don't know what to look out for when fighting a sorc to read its (very obvious) tells.

Urzigurumash

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

No proc CP Cyrodiil was very full when it happened patches ago. It also showed what classes and skill were underperforming. It also showed the actual skill difference in each player. There were countless players who were so-called "good" who who die almost instantly cause they couldn't crutch on proc sets to play for them. Removing proc sets from Cyrodiil is 100% the answer to every single balancing issue this game has. Proc Sets have no business being in PvP and anybody who defends proc sets arent good at the game and relies way too much on sets to do the work for them. There's a reason PvP is a dying mode. There's a reason most top PvPers have left. Now all you have is casuals running around with 2 or three proc sets thinking they are good at the game.

At this point, I'd actually like to see this happen. We might finally see a proper rework for sorcerers as a class if they actually do this, since the class won't have its proc sets to carry it/mask its issues anymore and people would finally see the class for what it has become instead of the current "weapon skill, proc, streak, repeat" class that it has sadly been forced into over the past 5+ years.

I played my sorc in no CP for a while back before the U35 gutting of the class and the class was ok back then. It could hold its own against the top classes at the time (plar and DK), but was still behind them for raw power and suvivability, but that was because most players didn't know how to fight against the class (or just fight in general). This is because the class (and broader game in general) has been nothing but procs for years now so players don't know what to look out for when fighting a sorc to read its (very obvious) tells.

Yeah mSorc was really hurting when the major league camp was No Proc, that's why everybody talked about how much Plar and DK needed buffs.

Nerfmire and the later bugfix to pet health brought the class back to Nirn but it was still the strongest class in flat stat sets until those buffs to Plar and DK in 2021, easily. I was bambroiled on this forum for my joke "Ancient Grace is OP" thread made at the announcement of No Procrodiil but I was right, mSorc ruled Solo OW that patch. (On Xbox NA that is, whether cuz we're scrubs or nobody has any "incoming projectile" add-ons I dunno but either way this is our forum too)

Turtle_Bot

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

No proc CP Cyrodiil was very full when it happened patches ago. It also showed what classes and skill were underperforming. It also showed the actual skill difference in each player. There were countless players who were so-called "good" who who die almost instantly cause they couldn't crutch on proc sets to play for them. Removing proc sets from Cyrodiil is 100% the answer to every single balancing issue this game has. Proc Sets have no business being in PvP and anybody who defends proc sets arent good at the game and relies way too much on sets to do the work for them. There's a reason PvP is a dying mode. There's a reason most top PvPers have left. Now all you have is casuals running around with 2 or three proc sets thinking they are good at the game.

At this point, I'd actually like to see this happen. We might finally see a proper rework for sorcerers as a class if they actually do this, since the class won't have its proc sets to carry it/mask its issues anymore and people would finally see the class for what it has become instead of the current "weapon skill, proc, streak, repeat" class that it has sadly been forced into over the past 5+ years.

I played my sorc in no CP for a while back before the U35 gutting of the class and the class was ok back then. It could hold its own against the top classes at the time (plar and DK), but was still behind them for raw power and suvivability, but that was because most players didn't know how to fight against the class (or just fight in general). This is because the class (and broader game in general) has been nothing but procs for years now so players don't know what to look out for when fighting a sorc to read its (very obvious) tells.

Yeah mSorc was really hurting when the major league camp was No Proc, that's why everybody talked about how much Plar and DK needed buffs.

Nerfmire and the later bugfix to pet health brought the class back to Nirn but it was still the strongest class in flat stat sets until those buffs to Plar and DK in 2021, easily. I was bambroiled on this forum for my joke "Ancient Grace is OP" thread made at the announcement of No Procrodiil but I was right, mSorc ruled Solo OW that patch. (On Xbox NA that is, whether cuz we're scrubs or nobody has any "incoming projectile" add-ons I dunno but either way this is our forum too)

Yeah, I remember that patch well with their "tests".

I made a stat based tanksorc build for that patch since it was all I could do with the class. It was fun and I had more than my fair share of zergs trying to chase me down and failing hard at it (got more than a few rage whispers and accusations of cheating from that one too)

The devs need to really look hard into sorc as a class and fix it properly (not just go "it's got proc sets to carry it, its fine").

The loss of overload 3rd bar, pet attributes being severely outdated and not able to proc secondary effects like crit surge heal or proc sets, constant mechanical changes, nerfs and reworks to wards, the increase of easy (basically free) mobility to all the other classes, the damage formula rework hard nerfing max attribute builds and buffing raw damage builds, the buff to block casting and healing making it better defensively than evasion and mitigation among many other game mechanic changes that have severely hurt sorc over the years with minimal things to help it outside of overtuned proc sets that any class can choose to run if they wish to.

Edit: Difference for sorc (from my experience) is probably the platform, I'm on PCEU so sorc was having a harder time there (especially outside of group play), not that it was unplayable by any means, but yeah, the nerfs over the past few years have not been kind to the class at all.

Urzigurumash

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

No proc CP Cyrodiil was very full when it happened patches ago. It also showed what classes and skill were underperforming. It also showed the actual skill difference in each player. There were countless players who were so-called "good" who who die almost instantly cause they couldn't crutch on proc sets to play for them. Removing proc sets from Cyrodiil is 100% the answer to every single balancing issue this game has. Proc Sets have no business being in PvP and anybody who defends proc sets arent good at the game and relies way too much on sets to do the work for them. There's a reason PvP is a dying mode. There's a reason most top PvPers have left. Now all you have is casuals running around with 2 or three proc sets thinking they are good at the game.

At this point, I'd actually like to see this happen. We might finally see a proper rework for sorcerers as a class if they actually do this, since the class won't have its proc sets to carry it/mask its issues anymore and people would finally see the class for what it has become instead of the current "weapon skill, proc, streak, repeat" class that it has sadly been forced into over the past 5+ years.

I played my sorc in no CP for a while back before the U35 gutting of the class and the class was ok back then. It could hold its own against the top classes at the time (plar and DK), but was still behind them for raw power and suvivability, but that was because most players didn't know how to fight against the class (or just fight in general). This is because the class (and broader game in general) has been nothing but procs for years now so players don't know what to look out for when fighting a sorc to read its (very obvious) tells.

Yeah mSorc was really hurting when the major league camp was No Proc, that's why everybody talked about how much Plar and DK needed buffs.

Nerfmire and the later bugfix to pet health brought the class back to Nirn but it was still the strongest class in flat stat sets until those buffs to Plar and DK in 2021, easily. I was bambroiled on this forum for my joke "Ancient Grace is OP" thread made at the announcement of No Procrodiil but I was right, mSorc ruled Solo OW that patch. (On Xbox NA that is, whether cuz we're scrubs or nobody has any "incoming projectile" add-ons I dunno but either way this is our forum too)

Yeah, I remember that patch well with their "tests".

I made a stat based tanksorc build for that patch since it was all I could do with the class. It was fun and I had more than my fair share of zergs trying to chase me down and failing hard at it (got more than a few rage whispers and accusations of cheating from that one too)

The devs need to really look hard into sorc as a class and fix it properly (not just go "it's got proc sets to carry it, its fine").

The loss of overload 3rd bar, pet attributes being severely outdated and not able to proc secondary effects like crit surge heal or proc sets, constant mechanical changes, nerfs and reworks to wards, the increase of easy (basically free) mobility to all the other classes, the damage formula rework hard nerfing max attribute builds and buffing raw damage builds, the buff to block casting and healing making it better defensively than evasion and mitigation among many other game mechanic changes that have severely hurt sorc over the years with minimal things to help it outside of overtuned proc sets that any class can choose to run if they wish to.

Edit: Difference for sorc (from my experience) is probably the platform, I'm on PCEU so sorc was having a harder time there (especially outside of group play), not that it was unplayable by any means, but yeah, the nerfs over the past few years have not been kind to the class at all.

Well that patch was mSorc's last hurrah on Xbox NA, outside of Fury spamming in BGs.

I very much agree the excess non-class mobility is a huge culprit in mSorc's demise, along with the easy sustain these days in affording endless blocking, dodging, and healing. Also Stam DK, Cro, Plar, and NB all getting access to a huge instant burst heal they didn't have before hybridization. (Green Dragonblood was strong but only when casted once at very low health, nothing like Coag today)

I still think if sustain were hit in Battlespirit we'd see many issues clear up, but I could be wrong.

SilverPaws

Hybridization of the game is what made PvP worst it has ever been.

Urzigurumash

SilverPaws wrote: »

Hybridization of the game is what made PvP worst it has ever been.

There's no going back on that, so can you think of any quick, easily coded, global fixes?

Two have been floating around this forum and I think either or both could work in Battlespirit:

1. Cost penalty to everything
2. Increase penalties to damage/healing

StaticWave

I don't want hybridization reverted. Melee stamsorc only has 2 decent options for a stamina spammable and that's Rending Slash or Dizzying Swing. Rending Slash forces you to slot mDW which limits build options and Dizzying Swing forces you to slot Execute which makes the class super squishy and not stat dense.

If we revert hybridization, stamina classes need to get better stam morphs. The vast majority of PvP builds are magicka dominant post hybridization and that speaks a lot of volume about the power disparity between stam and mag morphs.

TechMaybeHic

StaticWave wrote: »

I don't want hybridization reverted. Melee stamsorc only has 2 decent options for a stamina spammable and that's Rending Slash or Dizzying Swing. Rending Slash forces you to slot mDW which limits build options and Dizzying Swing forces you to slot Execute which makes the class super squishy and not stat dense.

If we revert hybridization, stamina classes need to get better stam morphs. The vast majority of PvP builds are magicka dominant post hybridization and that speaks a lot of volume about the power disparity between stam and mag morphs.

Yeah I have to agree. For my Templar; I favored stam and let's not act like hybridization makes "stamplar" godly. Any heal/defense/support for it comes from Magicka.

Even hitting sustain with a broad stroke ignores individual classes strengths and weaknesses. DK, as an example; has 2 mechanics that sustains both pools, and one of those also becomes a good size heal as well. Other classes still have to chose a morph based on stat pool they need recovery

Urzigurumash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don't want hybridization reverted. Melee stamsorc only has 2 decent options for a stamina spammable and that's Rending Slash or Dizzying Swing. Rending Slash forces you to slot mDW which limits build options and Dizzying Swing forces you to slot Execute which makes the class super squishy and not stat dense.

If we revert hybridization, stamina classes need to get better stam morphs. The vast majority of PvP builds are magicka dominant post hybridization and that speaks a lot of volume about the power disparity between stam and mag morphs.

Yeah I have to agree. For my Templar; I favored stam and let's not act like hybridization makes "stamplar" godly. Any heal/defense/support for it comes from Magicka.

Even hitting sustain with a broad stroke ignores individual classes strengths and weaknesses. DK, as an example; has 2 mechanics that sustains both pools, and one of those also becomes a good size heal as well. Other classes still have to chose a morph based on stat pool they need recovery

Hitting sustain is a start though no? And a much needed one? DK can never be sorted out with Vamp's Flame Penalty IF everybody is a Vampire - with a sustain penalty perhaps not everybody would be?

DKs sustain is not tremendously stronger than it was in 2020, as I said then our sustain was always comparatively quite good - if you "taped down the block button" as we have always been inclined to do, being the tank class and all. Numerous global changes have helped to elevate DK (the easy sustain + HP Regen nerf = Everybody has a flame penalty being a massive one imho)

LittlePinkDot

I can't get behind any nerfing of sustain. It's anti fun. And break free also needs sustain.
Nerf block itself, not sustain.

I mostly notice that a battle only lasts 60 seconds before somebody dies. And frequently it's running out of resources that ends up causing death if you're having to break free frequently.

If somebody is so tanky they can't die, they don't do good damage either.
There was this troll tank the other day that had like 7 people attacking him but he didn't do any damage. I noticed in the distance that the keep door was broken open. That guy was just a distraction preventing as many people as he could from raiding the keep.

I've honestly never been killed by only proc sets according to death recaps.
I'm convinced that PlayStation NA is the best platform/server.
I see all kinds of off meta builds in BGs in particular.
Almost never see rending slashes on death recap.

PC people just must like not having fun or something.

Turtle_Bot

Unfortunately there's a lot of sweats on PCEU that have a "win at all cost" mentality and they try hard anyone and everyone who doesn't adapt to the meta of the day and a lot of the tinkerers and theorycrafters are leaving/have left the game, so there's no-one trying out different builds to see if anything can compete with the meta.

It sucks because you just see less and less build diversity as everyone shifts to the most meta build possible to keep up. Pretty sure others are experiencing this on other servers too, but its been very noticeable on PCEU over the past few years especially.

Udrath

Wish more players would run all in on damage with like balrogh, stuhn, clever. 5 medium or 5 light. It’s the tried and true way of killing tanky brawlers. 8k+ spell/weapon damage and 16k-20k+ penetration. Highest magicka or stamina you can play with as well for higher tooltips on both healing and damage. Kinda similar to alcast pvp builds.

Most people do not run builds like that because they’re harder to manage, and don’t take the time to learn. You have to play them super offensively. It’s much easier to pvp by building defensively and use a bunch of DOTs/status effects/proc sets with 5k damage/lower pen.

StaticWave

Udrath wrote: »

Wish more players would run all in on damage with like balrogh, stuhn, clever. 5 medium or 5 light. It’s the tried and true way of killing tanky brawlers. 8k+ spell/weapon damage and 16k-20k+ penetration. Highest magicka or stamina you can play with as well for higher tooltips on both healing and damage. Kinda similar to alcast pvp builds.

Most people do not run builds like that because they’re harder to manage, and don’t take the time to learn. You have to play them super offensively. It’s much easier to pvp by building defensively and use a bunch of DOTs/status effects/proc sets with 5k damage/lower pen.

Those builds require players to already be decent at PvP. It's the end goal for most top tier builds as players who are mechanically good can afford to drop tankiness and/or sustain to get more damage.

However it's just not efficient in the current meta because you can still achieve a competitive DPS while being a lot tankier than a full dmg build.

I’m currently running almost full damage (my max resistances are 22k fully buffed and I use 4 dmg CPs), yet I still need to stack 38k HP and use Rallying Cry cause damage is too much out there. It’s sadly not possible to run full damage like the old days.

NeuroticPixels

This thread isn’t about this… and I don’t want to derail the conversation, but use it as an opportunity to say…
It’s even more infuriating that vampire is so popular for PvP because I can hardly freaking stand the way it makes our characters look. It’s awful!! If we don’t want vampirism to be part of our roleplay (or our “look” in general), we shouldn’t be stuck with the appearance it gives us.
It’s 2023... I know Devs could fix this or implement a decent compromise.

boi_anachronism_

I support nerfing undeath. Frankly its reallying annoying that you have to play a vamp to be competitive in pvp. Also vamps arent used really in pve so it really has no effect on that which is ideal.

IncultaWolf

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I can't get behind any nerfing of sustain. It's anti fun. And break free also needs sustain.
Nerf block itself, not sustain.

I mostly notice that a battle only lasts 60 seconds before somebody dies. And frequently it's running out of resources that ends up causing death if you're having to break free frequently.

If somebody is so tanky they can't die, they don't do good damage either.
There was this troll tank the other day that had like 7 people attacking him but he didn't do any damage. I noticed in the distance that the keep door was broken open. That guy was just a distraction preventing as many people as he could from raiding the keep.

I've honestly never been killed by only proc sets according to death recaps.
I'm convinced that PlayStation NA is the best platform/server.
I see all kinds of off meta builds in BGs in particular.
Almost never see rending slashes on death recap.

PC people just must like not having fun or something.

You must play in low mmr battlegrounds then

LittlePinkDot

IncultaWolf wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I can't get behind any nerfing of sustain. It's anti fun. And break free also needs sustain.
Nerf block itself, not sustain.

I mostly notice that a battle only lasts 60 seconds before somebody dies. And frequently it's running out of resources that ends up causing death if you're having to break free frequently.

If somebody is so tanky they can't die, they don't do good damage either.
There was this troll tank the other day that had like 7 people attacking him but he didn't do any damage. I noticed in the distance that the keep door was broken open. That guy was just a distraction preventing as many people as he could from raiding the keep.

I've honestly never been killed by only proc sets according to death recaps.
I'm convinced that PlayStation NA is the best platform/server.
I see all kinds of off meta builds in BGs in particular.
Almost never see rending slashes on death recap.

PC people just must like not having fun or something.

You must play in low mmr battlegrounds then

It's random. I only solo queue.
I doubt the matchmaking is that sophisticated.

StaticWave

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I can't get behind any nerfing of sustain. It's anti fun. And break free also needs sustain.
Nerf block itself, not sustain.

I mostly notice that a battle only lasts 60 seconds before somebody dies. And frequently it's running out of resources that ends up causing death if you're having to break free frequently.

If somebody is so tanky they can't die, they don't do good damage either.
There was this troll tank the other day that had like 7 people attacking him but he didn't do any damage. I noticed in the distance that the keep door was broken open. That guy was just a distraction preventing as many people as he could from raiding the keep.

I've honestly never been killed by only proc sets according to death recaps.
I'm convinced that PlayStation NA is the best platform/server.
I see all kinds of off meta builds in BGs in particular.
Almost never see rending slashes on death recap.

PC people just must like not having fun or something.

Lol if none of those meta builds exist on PS NA server then congrats, you are playing in a bubble (and I'm not saying that to be negative. I too wish PC NA was like that).

However the moment someone decides to slot a meta proc build he will roll over pretty much everyone there. Procs have dominated the meta on PC NA/EU for years now and anytime someone tries to compete with a stat build they get obliterated by a gazillion procs.

Off meta builds only work when the skill difference is massive enough. I can't bring my full damage stat build into a game full of proc users who are as good or better than me and expect to do well. It's just not going to happen unfortunately.