This is why nobody dies in PvP

OBJnoob

So. The topic kinda got diverted to being mostly about Undeath. Understandable. Blocking is kinda tried and true and just is what it is-- been that way forever. Undeath is the new kid on the block and, inside the paradigm we're all accustomed to, more problematic.

But I think there are enough topics about Undeath. And I don't mean to say people shouldn't keep complaining-- it's worth complaining about so go ahead-- but I think the message has been received. No idea when they'll get to it or how they'll address it but I think it's just a waiting game at this point.

So I want to propose one more idea to help block-healing. Maybe we're looking at it wrong. Maybe blocking is fine. Maybe heals should do 25% less while blocking? That would be interesting, right?

StaticWave

2 changes regarding block healing for PvP without affecting PvE:

1) Execute damage ignores a % of blocking

Making execute damage ignore 20-30% of block mitigation can increase the value of slotting an execute and allow players to actually finish off low health opponents. It won’t completely solve block healing, but it can apply enough pressure to stam/mag check players.

2) Burst heals reduce in value if casted repeatedly while blocking

This only applies to players who don’t drop block while casting burst heals. The first cast is at 100% value, then each subsequent cast reduces by 10-15%. This penalty resets after 2s like dodge roll ramping cost. This won’t completely solve the issue, but will force players to drop their block.

CameraBeardThePirate

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

CameraBeardThePirate

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I was talking about hardened armor, the DK skill. It is 2700k magicka the base cost.

Ok, I'll bite. Please explain the reasoning of bringing up DK hardened armor in a discussion about the interaction of the Undeath passive and damage shields. Geez man I've seen you post reasonable thoughts/arguments in the past and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

Because hardened armor has a shield that is buffed by undeath? I mean you literally explained the reasoning in your comment. It is a damage shield. Undeath adds mitigation to damage shields. Seems perfectly reasonable to bring it up.

Bashev

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I was talking about hardened armor, the DK skill. It is 2700k magicka the base cost.

Ok, I'll bite. Please explain the reasoning of bringing up DK hardened armor in a discussion about the interaction of the Undeath passive and damage shields. Geez man I've seen you post reasonable thoughts/arguments in the past and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

You said that the arcanist shield is very good. I am still leveling my arcanist and did not PvP with him, so i was wondering which shield is good and that is why I asked. I thought that maybe I miss something from the arcanist mechanic.

But the shield that you said that is good is similar to the DK shield which actually is cheaper. That is why I said that if noone complains for the DK shield I doubt that the arcanist shield is the problem.

My first question was really just for my info. I hope it is clear now.

StaticWave

Bashev wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I was talking about hardened armor, the DK skill. It is 2700k magicka the base cost.

Ok, I'll bite. Please explain the reasoning of bringing up DK hardened armor in a discussion about the interaction of the Undeath passive and damage shields. Geez man I've seen you post reasonable thoughts/arguments in the past and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

You said that the arcanist shield is very good. I am still leveling my arcanist and did not PvP with him, so i was wondering which shield is good and that is why I asked. I thought that maybe I miss something from the arcanist mechanic.

But the shield that you said that is good is similar to the DK shield which actually is cheaper. That is why I said that if noone complains for the DK shield I doubt that the arcanist shield is the problem.

My first question was really just for my info. I hope it is clear now.

Arcanist shield is in fact very good and better than DK shield and Sorc shield.

Here's my Hardened Ward tooltip at 38k HP without Bastion:



Here's DK's Hardened Armor at the same HP:



Here's Arcanist's shield also at the same HP:




Arcanist shield is literally better in every way and makes the class really tanky. It's basically Hardened Ward + Healing Ward + Bone Surge combined.

Even if you drop your HP to 29k, the tooltip of this shield during the first second is still higher than Hardened Ward:



Yes, the extra shield value only lasts 1s, but in most situations your shield will be stripped off within 2 seconds, making this drawback negligible. What's important though is this class can do what Sorc can't, and that's not being forced into building max mag or max HP to have a decent shield size. They can access much better sets and have better stats. Arcanist is a better Sorc in simple terms lol.

WreckfulAbandon

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Because hardened armor has a shield that is buffed by undeath? I mean you literally explained the reasoning in your comment. It is a damage shield. Undeath adds mitigation to damage shields. Seems perfectly reasonable to bring it up.

Yes, I 100% made a mistake here and jumped the gun. Am responding more reasonably to Bashev below.

Bashev wrote: »

You said that the arcanist shield is very good. I am still leveling my arcanist and did not PvP with him, so i was wondering which shield is good and that is why I asked. I thought that maybe I miss something from the arcanist mechanic.

But the shield that you said that is good is similar to the DK shield which actually is cheaper. That is why I said that if noone complains for the DK shield I doubt that the arcanist shield is the problem.

My first question was really just for my info. I hope it is clear now.

I see that I made a mistake, sorry to be abrasive. I assumed most DKs were using Volatile Armor so completely forgot about the other morph. Will need to check out the scaling of that shield in the build editor, but I highly doubt that it scales as well as the Arcanist shield. And even if it does, I view it as more of an issue with Undeath than the damage shield itself.

Impervious Runeward is the morph I was referring to previously. With Undeath kicking in it's incredibly strong. I don't often watch streamers but can recommend Sagetoad if you want to see it in action. Arcanist is a new class so it's still settling into the environment of PvP, but I expect more nerf calls if/when we see these types of builds proliferate.

IncultaWolf

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

I fought a good Arcanist in BG who used Mist Form to chase me down, and recorded the encounter just in case. Arcanist does not have bad mobility if you invest a bit in it.

I won't use vampire. It ruins the way my characters look.

You're nerfing yourself for theme in a way only you can notice. I respect the RP but it's beyond reason.

I made this poll nearly 2 years ago and even then it was long overdo for adjustment: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586418/undeath-is-op-does-it-matter

I agree, I hated how vampire made my characters look, but I caved in and finally started to run stage 3 for the passive on most of my pvp characters, and it feels like it's basically required in pvp at this point, an insane difference in survivability honestly, I hope undeath gets gutted.

Bashev

Ok so the better morph is the one that give 1s big shield and then the normal 30% shield. I also plan to use this morph. I think it is ok and it is not what sorcs had back in the days. This morph is more reactive mitigation and what sorcs had before was proactive. Pop up shields and go into burst combo.

I still did not test it, maybe I can change my mind after I pop up back in PvP.

WreckfulAbandon

Bashev wrote: »

Ok so the better morph is the one that give 1s big shield and then the normal 30% shield. I also plan to use this morph. I think it is ok and it is not what sorcs had back in the days. This morph is more reactive mitigation and what sorcs had before was proactive. Pop up shields and go into burst combo.

I still did not test it, maybe I can change my mind after I pop up back in PvP.

Hey Bashev, make sure you read my explanation/apology above and again, I'm sorry I responded to you that way 🙏

You should absolutely test it. If there is a better brawler class/build out there right now I would need to see it to believe it. A good Arcanist build is capable of sustained pressure, decent burst, and extremely high durability. No need to touch on the high mobility and sustain as every decent build has those these days. Best brawl build in the game right now, hands down, by a sizeable extent. Honestly OP as hell.

edward_frigidhands

StaticWave wrote: »

Apart from builds with high resistances and max HP, this clip below shows exactly why tank meta exists in PvP despite damage being so high:

https://youtu.be/rjTU-YiMyBg

The combination of Undeath passive, CP mitigation, block mitigation, and burst heal potency is why nobody seems to die. Undeath needs to be nerfed in PvP along with a rework to block healing if we wish to see the tank meta disappears.

P/S: Yes, I maybe could have dealt more damage with an execute, but the opportunity cost for slotting one is too great. Most classes can't afford to slot an execute anyway. NB is the only class that can afford to do so with their efficient bar space. I also could have reapplied Major Breach, but that's irrelevant to the point of this discussion.

People die in PvP.

1v1, 2v2 and 3v3 are not accurate representations of actual Cyrodiil PvP where it's large scale groups fighting each other.

Healers are not using block to heal up in any situation other than 1v1 or 2v2, where it doesn't really matter. Large scale PvP, healers are taking advantage of high resistances (yes I will give you that) and undeath to elude death.

It's not perfect but its not as big an issue in large scale Cyrodiil PvP as is being presented. Everyone is given the choice between building a capable healer, a potent damage dealer or a sturdy tank. We are also given the option to choose a mix of the 3 that does a bit of everything but not as well.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a healer building tanky because everyone else has the option to build a counter to that.

There are some changes however that would not be a bad idea for the meta.

One of those might be having Undeath scale with defensive statistics only to make it so high damage or healing builds are unable to utilize the maximum value of 30%.

Additionally, it might be time to lock players who choose to be vampires or werewolves out of the Fighter's Guild skill line and making the skill line be a source of effective anti vampire/werewolf/daedra setups.

A key feature of the game is making effective choices that affect gameplay and getting to use Fighter's Guild abilities just fine while having access to the Vampire or Werewolf skill line does not really make sense.

CameraBeardThePirate

I don't think the Arc shields would be nearly as big of an issue if Undeath wasn't so prevalent - at least in my guilds, everyone running an arcanist is a stage 3 Vamp for undeath. Since undeath applies to shields (which is stupid), it's a no-brainer for arcanists. Without Undeath, the shields would still be strong, but wouldn't feel nearly as bad to fight against.

TechMaybeHic

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I don't think the Arc shields would be nearly as big of an issue if Undeath wasn't so prevalent - at least in my guilds, everyone running an arcanist is a stage 3 Vamp for undeath. Since undeath applies to shields (which is stupid), it's a no-brainer for arcanists. Without Undeath, the shields would still be strong, but wouldn't feel nearly as bad to fight against.

The undeath and other mitigation applies to shields because of the way they nerfed shield values and effectiveness really. Kind of funny to me that we just now are thinking about it because shields are often compared to being almost an alternative to healing, as more preemptive. Imagine if healing increased by 30% when you got to low health... Oh wait. Thats coagulating blood and it gets up to 50%. Templar meanwhile gets 12% max

Im being a bit tongue in cheek, but we are really talking about why people get to low health and don't die with all this stuff stacked on each other

LittlePinkDot

For the one vampire character I do have (magblade) I would love it if they just removed undeath from the game entirely if they would also just completely remove all the resource cost penalties too.
Anything that makes skills cost more is just Anti-fun. Ive never heard anyone say being able to use less skills is some how more fun. It's a character I barely want to play.

I won't use NMA set for the same reason.

Vampire is barely playable at stage 3.
I rather die 10x more than to put up with that anti fun garbage.

There isn't even any consequences for death in battlegrounds, you're back in the action in a few seconds anyway.

And as for cyrodiil, if your transitus is cut off and you need to get to the other side of the map, the fastest way to get there is to jump off a cliff or into slaughter fish so you can respawn where you like. 🤣

PhoenixGrey

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

Then why does sorc have the worst defense in the game.

It means its streak isn’t as strong ?

No burst heal, bad shields and streak still doesn’t make up for it, does it ?

The only thing which makes sorc playable in pvp is undeath

TechMaybeHic

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

Then why does sorc have the worst defense in the game.

It means its streak isn’t as strong ?

No burst heal, bad shields and streak still doesn’t make up for it, does it ?

The only thing which makes sorc playable in pvp is undeath

Sorcs are not top by class kit, by any means; but I think there is a reason the vate frost staff/master DW/other proc is most prevalent on them despite all the deficiencies you listed, and I'd hazard to guess streak is no small part of that.

PhoenixGrey

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

Then why does sorc have the worst defense in the game.

It means its streak isn’t as strong ?

No burst heal, bad shields and streak still doesn’t make up for it, does it ?

The only thing which makes sorc playable in pvp is undeath

Sorcs are not top by class kit, by any means; but I think there is a reason the vate frost staff/master DW/other proc is most prevalent on them despite all the deficiencies you listed, and I'd hazard to guess streak is no small part of that.

Are you saying classes which have dot and status effect passives cannot use the same build and do better ?

TechMaybeHic

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

Then why does sorc have the worst defense in the game.

It means its streak isn’t as strong ?

No burst heal, bad shields and streak still doesn’t make up for it, does it ?

The only thing which makes sorc playable in pvp is undeath

Sorcs are not top by class kit, by any means; but I think there is a reason the vate frost staff/master DW/other proc is most prevalent on them despite all the deficiencies you listed, and I'd hazard to guess streak is no small part of that.

Are you saying classes which have dot and status effect passives cannot use the same build and do better ?

I'm asking what the reason is that you see it most prevalent on sorcs.

PhoenixGrey

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

Then why does sorc have the worst defense in the game.

It means its streak isn’t as strong ?

No burst heal, bad shields and streak still doesn’t make up for it, does it ?

The only thing which makes sorc playable in pvp is undeath

Sorcs are not top by class kit, by any means; but I think there is a reason the vate frost staff/master DW/other proc is most prevalent on them despite all the deficiencies you listed, and I'd hazard to guess streak is no small part of that.

Are you saying classes which have dot and status effect passives cannot use the same build and do better ?

I'm asking what the reason is that you see it most prevalent on sorcs.

Because there is no better build ?

If you class skills are completely garbage you rely on a bunch of procs for damage and crit surge will carry your heals

You can build more dd on other builds but how will you proc crit surge ? You need to heal right ?

DUTCH_REAPER

Maybe someone here can explain this. At time 8, 15 and 17 health is zero. Zero as in zero health points. Yet he does not die. Ping is in lower left corner. No lag. No bug. Multiple clips of this at different times and different days. How is this possible. I want to recreate it. Please anybody explain how.

https://youtu.be/YQcJGnnQ1-o

LittlePinkDot

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

Then why does sorc have the worst defense in the game.

It means its streak isn’t as strong ?

No burst heal, bad shields and streak still doesn’t make up for it, does it ?

The only thing which makes sorc playable in pvp is undeath

Sorcs are not top by class kit, by any means; but I think there is a reason the vate frost staff/master DW/other proc is most prevalent on them despite all the deficiencies you listed, and I'd hazard to guess streak is no small part of that.

Are you saying classes which have dot and status effect passives cannot use the same build and do better ?

I'm asking what the reason is that you see it most prevalent on sorcs.

Because there is no better build ?

If you class skills are completely garbage you rely on a bunch of procs for damage and crit surge will carry your heals

You can build more dd on other builds but how will you proc crit surge ? You need to heal right ?

Hmmm well on my stam sorc I just use a restoration staff back bar.

Urzigurumash

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

Streak is still by far the best mobility skill in the game and implying anything otherwise is flat out wrong.

Then why does sorc have the worst defense in the game.

It means its streak isn’t as strong ?

No burst heal, bad shields and streak still doesn’t make up for it, does it ?

The only thing which makes sorc playable in pvp is undeath

Sorcs are not top by class kit, by any means; but I think there is a reason the vate frost staff/master DW/other proc is most prevalent on them despite all the deficiencies you listed, and I'd hazard to guess streak is no small part of that.

Are you saying classes which have dot and status effect passives cannot use the same build and do better ?

I'm asking what the reason is that you see it most prevalent on sorcs.

Because there is no better build ?

If you class skills are completely garbage you rely on a bunch of procs for damage and crit surge will carry your heals

You can build more dd on other builds but how will you proc crit surge ? You need to heal right ?

StamSorc has always been a premier Proc Conveyor for the same reason it's always been a premier Werewolf, excellent generic passives not tied to slotting class skills. Not having anything better to do with the class is a part of it for sure but people do pick StamSorc deliberately for this reason.

JerBearESO

StaticWave wrote: »

2 changes regarding block healing for PvP without affecting PvE:

1) Execute damage ignores a % of blocking

Making execute damage ignore 20-30% of block mitigation can increase the value of slotting an execute and allow players to actually finish off low health opponents. It won’t completely solve block healing, but it can apply enough pressure to stam/mag check players.

2) Burst heals reduce in value if casted repeatedly while blocking

This only applies to players who don’t drop block while casting burst heals. The first cast is at 100% value, then each subsequent cast reduces by 10-15%. This penalty resets after 2s like dodge roll ramping cost. This won’t completely solve the issue, but will force players to drop their block.

I think these ideas have good direction.

Point 1 may be good but I don't like being pushed into slotting an execute. I know it's pretty standard but doesn't always fit into a creative build. I suggest moving more towards penetration applying vs block mitigation in addition to it's current function.

For point 2 I see this working best with a debuff applied while blocking and for a second after releasing block. Otherwise it's pretty easy to release cast and hit block again. Also has no effect vs non burst healing. Could maybe have block bebuff healing done with a stacking system that lingers for the 2 seconds. This should be ok for PvE since tanks need healing taken not done

Iriidius

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do


Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do


Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

I like this idea. I wonder if you can expand on that idea for me? Is it going to be like a mechanic, or like an ability?

I think I'd rather it be a mechanic. If it were an ability it'd need to be like a guild skills or something cuz it'd be kinda lame if only one class had access to it.

Maybe if you bash a blocking target they drop block and can't block again for 2 or 3 seconds, almost like an interrupt? Or maybe if you light attack them two or three times in a row? Or honestly maybe crits could drop block-- that seems thematic in a way.

Whatever the decision, I think it needs to be tied to a mechanic already available. Us console players are limited on buttons.

If you could just bash a blocking player to break block, blocking would be useless. Block breakers would be used not just against permablocking but also against reactive blocking and preemptitive to prevent players from blocking your burst combos.
Mechanical Acuity DK is a good example for an unblockable burst combo and shows what happens if you allow players to break block. Even if you know that the acuity dk is going to burst you cant defend against it, you can neither block nor dodge fossilze, you can try to kite the dk but they have snares and can catch you, you could mistform before change but now mistform doesnt give cc immunity and dmg reduction and is only to kite them, only reliable defense is using immovable (pot) before blocking. Templars, Sorcerer and NB (mass hysteria) can/could also do unblockable undodgeable burst combos. Imagine how much worse it would become if you can break block of cc immune people. It is not fun if you get killed because your defense gets crushed and you cant do anything against it. Players should be able to defend themselfe.

Bash is already the most common interrupt in meele range because its available for all. Interrupts are the main reason why cast time skills like dark deal, hard cast crystal fragment, twilight matriarch, volatile familiar, dark flare and many other are so unreliable and bad in PvP. Block would be useless if you can just interrupt it with bash whenever you want.

Udrath wrote: »

My executes are hitting for like 300-500 versus blocking vamps with less than 5k hp left and that’s with full balrogh/stuhn 25k+ penetration and nearly 9k spell damage in CP. Dawnbreaker DOT ticking for nothing. Only thing to do currently is run cost increase poisons or hope to kill them before they can block. CP passive that adds another 20% to block mitigation is a bit busted too. Should be like 8%. Block healing isn’t nowhere as strong in no-cp battlegrounds.

8% block mitigation for a cp slottable that also reduces your movement speed by 16% is a joke. Even with 20% most players dont use it. When I had accidently slottet it, I died more often than without because I still couldnt sustain permablock and couldnt outrun unblinkyng eye, Zaan, Vateshraan destro and enemy players anymore.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

The thing I think a lot of folks forget is that it’s not just vamps with Undeath. It’s Dark Elf vamps with Undeath. They get extra Flame Resistance that basically cancels out the increase in Flame damage taken by vamps, on top of an increase in max Stamina, max Magicka, and Weapon/Spell damage.

Time to kill in this game is so damn out of wack. Either you and six buddies spend half an hour wailing on one tank, or some NB deletes everyone in 0.00045 seconds. There’s almost no middle ground to make for entertaining fights unless you duel specific people.

Dark Elf is only 1 of 10 playable and 6 decent races and neither the strongest nor most used one, they are a minority and not the majority of players. Corrosive mag dk and siege are the majority of flame dmg and both ignore magdk resistance.

StaticWave wrote: »

2 changes regarding block healing for PvP without affecting PvE:

1) Execute damage ignores a % of blocking

Making execute damage ignore 20-30% of block mitigation can increase the value of slotting an execute and allow players to actually finish off low health opponents. It won’t completely solve block healing, but it can apply enough pressure to stam/mag check players.

2) Burst heals reduce in value if casted repeatedly while blocking

This only applies to players who don’t drop block while casting burst heals. The first cast is at 100% value, then each subsequent cast reduces by 10-15%. This penalty resets after 2s like dodge roll ramping cost. This won’t completely solve the issue, but will force players to drop their block.

The first change would hurt reactive blocking more than permablocking, because permablock tanks usually dont get in execute range except they are out of ressoursses and cant block anymore or cant outheal the dmg. But if you get hit by a burst combo and drop to execute range faster than you can react(because of desync maybe) and then you block but still get killed because execute dmg would ignore block mitigation it sucks and you dont get rewarded for your . Players should rewarded for reacting to burst combos before they die even if it is close, otherwise the remaining health helps mainly ballgroups and zergs that can heal up fast or zerg down the bomber/1vXer before he finishes his attack.

StaticWave

Iriidius wrote: »

The first change would hurt reactive blocking more than permablocking, because permablock tanks usually dont get in execute range except they are out of ressoursses and cant block anymore or cant outheal the dmg. But if you get hit by a burst combo and drop to execute range faster than you can react(because of desync maybe) and then you block but still get killed because execute dmg would ignore block mitigation it sucks and you dont get rewarded for your . Players should rewarded for reacting to burst combos before they die even if it is close, otherwise the remaining health helps mainly ballgroups and zergs that can heal up fast or zerg down the bomber/1vXer before he finishes his attack.

If you actually preemptively block, you wouldn’t get into execute range in the first place. An example of would be blocking a Dawnbreaker, thereby not getting stunned and taking 50-60% less dmg.

Most people right now don’t preemptively block. They rely on reactive blocking AFTER taking the full combo with barely enough HP left to hold block and take advantage of Undeath + block mitigation to heal back to full.

LittlePinkDot

Iriidius wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do


Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do


Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

I like this idea. I wonder if you can expand on that idea for me? Is it going to be like a mechanic, or like an ability?

I think I'd rather it be a mechanic. If it were an ability it'd need to be like a guild skills or something cuz it'd be kinda lame if only one class had access to it.

Maybe if you bash a blocking target they drop block and can't block again for 2 or 3 seconds, almost like an interrupt? Or maybe if you light attack them two or three times in a row? Or honestly maybe crits could drop block-- that seems thematic in a way.

Whatever the decision, I think it needs to be tied to a mechanic already available. Us console players are limited on buttons.

If you could just bash a blocking player to break block, blocking would be useless. Block breakers would be used not just against permablocking but also against reactive blocking and preemptitive to prevent players from blocking your burst combos.
Mechanical Acuity DK is a good example for an unblockable burst combo and shows what happens if you allow players to break block. Even if you know that the acuity dk is going to burst you cant defend against it, you can neither block nor dodge fossilze, you can try to kite the dk but they have snares and can catch you, you could mistform before change but now mistform doesnt give cc immunity and dmg reduction and is only to kite them, only reliable defense is using immovable (pot) before blocking. Templars, Sorcerer and NB (mass hysteria) can/could also do unblockable undodgeable burst combos. Imagine how much worse it would become if you can break block of cc immune people. It is not fun if you get killed because your defense gets crushed and you cant do anything against it. Players should be able to defend themselfe.

Bash is already the most common interrupt in meele range because its available for all. Interrupts are the main reason why cast time skills like dark deal, hard cast crystal fragment, twilight matriarch, volatile familiar, dark flare and many other are so unreliable and bad in PvP. Block would be useless if you can just interrupt it with bash whenever you want.

Udrath wrote: »

My executes are hitting for like 300-500 versus blocking vamps with less than 5k hp left and that’s with full balrogh/stuhn 25k+ penetration and nearly 9k spell damage in CP. Dawnbreaker DOT ticking for nothing. Only thing to do currently is run cost increase poisons or hope to kill them before they can block. CP passive that adds another 20% to block mitigation is a bit busted too. Should be like 8%. Block healing isn’t nowhere as strong in no-cp battlegrounds.

8% block mitigation for a cp slottable that also reduces your movement speed by 16% is a joke. Even with 20% most players dont use it. When I had accidently slottet it, I died more often than without because I still couldnt sustain permablock and couldnt outrun unblinkyng eye, Zaan, Vateshraan destro and enemy players anymore.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

The thing I think a lot of folks forget is that it’s not just vamps with Undeath. It’s Dark Elf vamps with Undeath. They get extra Flame Resistance that basically cancels out the increase in Flame damage taken by vamps, on top of an increase in max Stamina, max Magicka, and Weapon/Spell damage.

Time to kill in this game is so damn out of wack. Either you and six buddies spend half an hour wailing on one tank, or some NB deletes everyone in 0.00045 seconds. There’s almost no middle ground to make for entertaining fights unless you duel specific people.

Dark Elf is only 1 of 10 playable and 6 decent races and neither the strongest nor most used one, they are a minority and not the majority of players. Corrosive mag dk and siege are the majority of flame dmg and both ignore magdk resistance.

StaticWave wrote: »

2 changes regarding block healing for PvP without affecting PvE:

1) Execute damage ignores a % of blocking

Making execute damage ignore 20-30% of block mitigation can increase the value of slotting an execute and allow players to actually finish off low health opponents. It won’t completely solve block healing, but it can apply enough pressure to stam/mag check players.

2) Burst heals reduce in value if casted repeatedly while blocking

This only applies to players who don’t drop block while casting burst heals. The first cast is at 100% value, then each subsequent cast reduces by 10-15%. This penalty resets after 2s like dodge roll ramping cost. This won’t completely solve the issue, but will force players to drop their block.

The first change would hurt reactive blocking more than permablocking, because permablock tanks usually dont get in execute range except they are out of ressoursses and cant block anymore or cant outheal the dmg. But if you get hit by a burst combo and drop to execute range faster than you can react(because of desync maybe) and then you block but still get killed because execute dmg would ignore block mitigation it sucks and you dont get rewarded for your . Players should rewarded for reacting to burst combos before they die even if it is close, otherwise the remaining health helps mainly ballgroups and zergs that can heal up fast or zerg down the bomber/1vXer before he finishes his attack.

Hmmm something you just said gave me an idea.

Do poisons that drain your stamina/Magicka eventually cause tanks to run out of resources?

CameraBeardThePirate

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do


Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do


Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

I like this idea. I wonder if you can expand on that idea for me? Is it going to be like a mechanic, or like an ability?

I think I'd rather it be a mechanic. If it were an ability it'd need to be like a guild skills or something cuz it'd be kinda lame if only one class had access to it.

Maybe if you bash a blocking target they drop block and can't block again for 2 or 3 seconds, almost like an interrupt? Or maybe if you light attack them two or three times in a row? Or honestly maybe crits could drop block-- that seems thematic in a way.

Whatever the decision, I think it needs to be tied to a mechanic already available. Us console players are limited on buttons.

If you could just bash a blocking player to break block, blocking would be useless. Block breakers would be used not just against permablocking but also against reactive blocking and preemptitive to prevent players from blocking your burst combos.
Mechanical Acuity DK is a good example for an unblockable burst combo and shows what happens if you allow players to break block. Even if you know that the acuity dk is going to burst you cant defend against it, you can neither block nor dodge fossilze, you can try to kite the dk but they have snares and can catch you, you could mistform before change but now mistform doesnt give cc immunity and dmg reduction and is only to kite them, only reliable defense is using immovable (pot) before blocking. Templars, Sorcerer and NB (mass hysteria) can/could also do unblockable undodgeable burst combos. Imagine how much worse it would become if you can break block of cc immune people. It is not fun if you get killed because your defense gets crushed and you cant do anything against it. Players should be able to defend themselfe.

Bash is already the most common interrupt in meele range because its available for all. Interrupts are the main reason why cast time skills like dark deal, hard cast crystal fragment, twilight matriarch, volatile familiar, dark flare and many other are so unreliable and bad in PvP. Block would be useless if you can just interrupt it with bash whenever you want.

Udrath wrote: »

My executes are hitting for like 300-500 versus blocking vamps with less than 5k hp left and that’s with full balrogh/stuhn 25k+ penetration and nearly 9k spell damage in CP. Dawnbreaker DOT ticking for nothing. Only thing to do currently is run cost increase poisons or hope to kill them before they can block. CP passive that adds another 20% to block mitigation is a bit busted too. Should be like 8%. Block healing isn’t nowhere as strong in no-cp battlegrounds.

8% block mitigation for a cp slottable that also reduces your movement speed by 16% is a joke. Even with 20% most players dont use it. When I had accidently slottet it, I died more often than without because I still couldnt sustain permablock and couldnt outrun unblinkyng eye, Zaan, Vateshraan destro and enemy players anymore.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

The thing I think a lot of folks forget is that it’s not just vamps with Undeath. It’s Dark Elf vamps with Undeath. They get extra Flame Resistance that basically cancels out the increase in Flame damage taken by vamps, on top of an increase in max Stamina, max Magicka, and Weapon/Spell damage.

Time to kill in this game is so damn out of wack. Either you and six buddies spend half an hour wailing on one tank, or some NB deletes everyone in 0.00045 seconds. There’s almost no middle ground to make for entertaining fights unless you duel specific people.

Dark Elf is only 1 of 10 playable and 6 decent races and neither the strongest nor most used one, they are a minority and not the majority of players. Corrosive mag dk and siege are the majority of flame dmg and both ignore magdk resistance.

StaticWave wrote: »

2 changes regarding block healing for PvP without affecting PvE:

1) Execute damage ignores a % of blocking

Making execute damage ignore 20-30% of block mitigation can increase the value of slotting an execute and allow players to actually finish off low health opponents. It won’t completely solve block healing, but it can apply enough pressure to stam/mag check players.

2) Burst heals reduce in value if casted repeatedly while blocking

This only applies to players who don’t drop block while casting burst heals. The first cast is at 100% value, then each subsequent cast reduces by 10-15%. This penalty resets after 2s like dodge roll ramping cost. This won’t completely solve the issue, but will force players to drop their block.

The first change would hurt reactive blocking more than permablocking, because permablock tanks usually dont get in execute range except they are out of ressoursses and cant block anymore or cant outheal the dmg. But if you get hit by a burst combo and drop to execute range faster than you can react(because of desync maybe) and then you block but still get killed because execute dmg would ignore block mitigation it sucks and you dont get rewarded for your . Players should rewarded for reacting to burst combos before they die even if it is close, otherwise the remaining health helps mainly ballgroups and zergs that can heal up fast or zerg down the bomber/1vXer before he finishes his attack.

Hmmm something you just said gave me an idea.

Do poisons that drain your stamina/Magicka eventually cause tanks to run out of resources?

No. Sustain is far too easy for those poisons to matter if the tank is properly setup.

Udrath

@LittlePinkDot

Stamina cost increase + root poisons work good in battlegrounds and no-cp.

In CP I have mixed results with stamina cost increase, but find 10 second magicka cost increase poisons to work better than stamina. Most people have 20k or so magicka and their abilities can be expensive. But if they’re running the CP perk that makes all their abilities cost 75% less after popping a potion, both are useless.

xHotguy6pack

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

CameraBeardThePirate

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Here's a super crazy ide, you ready? Disable proc sets entirely in Cyrodiil. Man the game was 100x better when there were none. It really showed what needed balancing. Nowadays the game basically plays for you. Then gradually add ones in such as Pariah or BSW. You know, ones that aren't completely absurd? The Greymoor patch really ruined ESO PvP and the constant needs to things that didn't need it. PvP needs to go back to the hulking Drauger/Bright throat meta.

They already did this for the no proc campaign, and its completely dead most days. People liked the novelty but that novelty quickly wore off.

Doesn't help that ZOS doesn't support the no-proc campaign at all; there isn't a single up to date list on what sets work there. Sets that should work there don't, and sets that shouldn't work there do. It was a failed experiment.