This is why nobody dies in PvP

StaticWave · August 5

Apart from builds with high resistances and max HP, this clip below shows exactly why tank meta exists in PvP despite damage being so high:

https://youtu.be/rjTU-YiMyBg

The combination of Undeath passive, CP mitigation, block mitigation, and burst heal potency is why nobody seems to die. Undeath needs to be nerfed in PvP along with a rework to block healing if we wish to see the tank meta disappears.

P/S: Yes, I maybe could have dealt more damage with an execute, but the opportunity cost for slotting one is too great. Most classes can't afford to slot an execute anyway. NB is the only class that can afford to do so with their efficient bar space. I also could have reapplied Major Breach, but that's irrelevant to the point of this discussion.

Udrath · August 5

My executes are hitting for like 300-500 versus blocking vamps with less than 5k hp left and that’s with full balrogh/stuhn 25k+ penetration and nearly 9k spell damage in CP. Dawnbreaker DOT ticking for nothing. Only thing to do currently is run cost increase poisons or hope to kill them before they can block. CP passive that adds another 20% to block mitigation is a bit busted too. Should be like 8%. Block healing isn’t nowhere as strong in no-cp battlegrounds.

OBJnoob · August 5

Hmm. Well. I don't disagree. I do think block-healing is an important part of the game though. I think I'd be satisfied if it just cost more stamina or something. It doesn't annoy me that people do it-- just that they seem to be able to do it so many times in a row and still maintain their stam somehow.

Ankael07 · August 5

Blocking needs to get the dodge treatment in pvp. The more you hold block the more it costs but cheap for first few seconds to allow for strategical blocking.

TechMaybeHic · August 5

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do

Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

Fkey · August 5

World of Vamps

Up to 30% across the board damage reduction from Undeath.
All types, all ticks, bursts, all of it.
Flame damage increase is ignorable, and also gets reduced.
Fighter ability damage increase is only 20%, is also subject to the Undeath reduction, and requires slotting specific skills.
Silver shards - okayish. Traps - next to useless. Dawnbreaker - good if it lands.
So 2 abilities that are okayish.
All to fight what is arguably more of a crutch than any gear set whether nerfed or pre-nerf.
If you don't take Undeath you are nerfing yourself.
Can you fight as a mortal - yes, as long as you are willing to accept the fact
--you will lose more than if you took Undeath--

Not everyone wants to be forced to be a cannibal monstrosity.
They could just buff mortal damage versus vampire players to the point that this choice of crutch is no longer necessary, and dies out as such an appealing choice.

There is also the problem that they are nerfing/buffing based on the assumption that everyone (pvp) takes Undeath.
Undeath is/was a big hole that got dug, and I doubt they will change it.

OBJnoob · August 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do

Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

I like this idea. I wonder if you can expand on that idea for me? Is it going to be like a mechanic, or like an ability?

I think I'd rather it be a mechanic. If it were an ability it'd need to be like a guild skills or something cuz it'd be kinda lame if only one class had access to it.

Maybe if you bash a blocking target they drop block and can't block again for 2 or 3 seconds, almost like an interrupt? Or maybe if you light attack them two or three times in a row? Or honestly maybe crits could drop block-- that seems thematic in a way.

Whatever the decision, I think it needs to be tied to a mechanic already available. Us console players are limited on buttons.

TechMaybeHic · August 5

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There needs to be an available block breaker not tied to CC so you are not locked out of it for CC immunity. That way it gives PvP a fix with no impact to PvE nor do they have to use battle spirit which they seem to not want to do

Also. I see a ton of absorbs on damage at really high values way to often

I like this idea. I wonder if you can expand on that idea for me? Is it going to be like a mechanic, or like an ability?

I think I'd rather it be a mechanic. If it were an ability it'd need to be like a guild skills or something cuz it'd be kinda lame if only one class had access to it.

Maybe if you bash a blocking target they drop block and can't block again for 2 or 3 seconds, almost like an interrupt? Or maybe if you light attack them two or three times in a row? Or honestly maybe crits could drop block-- that seems thematic in a way.

Whatever the decision, I think it needs to be tied to a mechanic already available. Us console players are limited on buttons.

I generally think it's a waste of time to get to detailed as I think ZOS intentionally tries to make it their own. I do like the idea of bash braking it as it's as available as block, and has a cost with similar ways to reduce cost and sustain it.

Recently, I just would spam javelin at blockers even though I'm still a jabs holdout; but I haven't even been slotting javelin lately as I don't want to just give CC immunity without purpose for burst

birdik · August 5

Wow I created about 3 themes about this for 3-4 years..

Oblivion_Protocol · August 5

The thing I think a lot of folks forget is that it’s not just vamps with Undeath. It’s Dark Elf vamps with Undeath. They get extra Flame Resistance that basically cancels out the increase in Flame damage taken by vamps, on top of an increase in max Stamina, max Magicka, and Weapon/Spell damage.

Time to kill in this game is so damn out of wack. Either you and six buddies spend half an hour wailing on one tank, or some NB deletes everyone in 0.00045 seconds. There’s almost no middle ground to make for entertaining fights unless you duel specific people.

WreckfulAbandon · August 5

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

LittlePinkDot · August 5

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

WreckfulAbandon · August 5

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

The shield is a lil busted but there are other more busted things to focus on. With no undeath it's not really a problem.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 5

Undeath shouldn't stack with everything like it does. It stacks with all types of mitigation, including block mitigation, and works with shields (which specifically do not work with block because of how OP that would be). It's a ridiculous passive, and always has been, but has gotten particularly potent as power creep has happened.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 5

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

The thing I think a lot of folks forget is that it’s not just vamps with Undeath. It’s Dark Elf vamps with Undeath. They get extra Flame Resistance that basically cancels out the increase in Flame damage taken by vamps, on top of an increase in max Stamina, max Magicka, and Weapon/Spell damage.

Time to kill in this game is so damn out of wack. Either you and six buddies spend half an hour wailing on one tank, or some NB deletes everyone in 0.00045 seconds. There’s almost no middle ground to make for entertaining fights unless you duel specific people.

The extra flame damage (and fighters guild damage) from being a vamp is already entirely mitigated by Undeath though - that's how good the passive is.

StaticWave · August 6

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

I fought a good Arcanist in BG who used Mist Form to chase me down, and recorded the encounter just in case. Arcanist does not have bad mobility if you invest a bit in it.

LittlePinkDot · August 6

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

I fought a good Arcanist in BG who used Mist Form to chase me down, and recorded the encounter just in case. Arcanist does not have bad mobility if you invest a bit in it.

I won't use vampire. It ruins the way my characters look.

Urzigurumash · August 6

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

I fought a good Arcanist in BG who used Mist Form to chase me down, and recorded the encounter just in case. Arcanist does not have bad mobility if you invest a bit in it.

I won't use vampire. It ruins the way my characters look.

You're nerfing yourself for theme in a way only you can notice. I respect the RP but it's beyond reason.

I made this poll nearly 2 years ago and even then it was long overdo for adjustment: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586418/undeath-is-op-does-it-matter

SkaraMinoc · August 6

Not enough penalty for using Undeath.

LittlePinkDot · August 6

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

I fought a good Arcanist in BG who used Mist Form to chase me down, and recorded the encounter just in case. Arcanist does not have bad mobility if you invest a bit in it.

I won't use vampire. It ruins the way my characters look.

You're nerfing yourself for theme in a way only you can notice. I respect the RP but it's beyond reason.

I made this poll nearly 2 years ago and even then it was long overdo for adjustment: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586418/undeath-is-op-does-it-matter

I have a character for each race too. I don't care.

The undeath isn't even worth the extra cost to resources in my opinion. The higher resource cost is really the only thing I notice. I do casual PvE with my PVP characters and the 1 vampire I do have always runs out of Magicka, the point where I cant play her like my other characters. Only thing she's good for is ganking in Imperial City.

I don't even really notice undeath on other people. They die all the same in battlegrounds.
A good chunk of people on PS5 barely know how to block. They'll let me hit them in face regardless of if they're vampire or not.

And as for cyrodiil, the zergs are so big it's hard to know who or what killed who. But they still don't block very well.

JerBearESO · August 6

Block is pretty busted. Block troll builds are simply annoying.... Maybe battle spirit should reduce block mitigation so players can't run 80+% mitigation from block? I wonder how it would feel cutting block mitigation in half

Bashev · August 6

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

For witch shield are you talking about? The one that scales with health?

Bluestin · August 6

It would likely be more prudent to reduce the CP slot passive block mitigation overall for the health of the game in all content (making tanks even in pve have maybe slightly more gameplay engagement) perhaps reducing it from 20% down to 10%.

Barring that, adding a block mitigation cap for pvp could work. Undeath from Vampirism is one of the prime culprits in a lot of high TTK encounters in pvp and is long overdue for an adjustment.

A scaling cost to blocking doesn't sound wise as there are non-tanks that don't rely on ceaseless blocking, but do block, and when they are pressured they either have to stop blocking or run out of stamina as per normal. An example would be a magicka focused build that still uses stamina to block.

A scaling cost would make blocking in those situations completely untenable, they'd only be able to handle maybe two or three attacks at best before then having no stamina to break out of a stun or immobilization.

WreckfulAbandon · August 6

Bashev wrote: »

For witch shield are you talking about? The one that scales with health?

Yes, the one that is able to be spammed, although the ultimate shield is insanely large tbh.

"But it only heals if you have cruxes."
-Doesn't matter, Hardened Ward during the glory days never healed and look at how tanky it could make people.

"But you have to stack a good bit of health to make it good."
-Not really and everyone is stacking health anyways these days as anyone with under 30k health will usually die to the first combo to hit them. Bastion CP and around 37k health is enough to make it a 14-15k shield and that's hardly a sacrifice. Add in the easy sustain these days and you have something that's much better than an spammable 15k heal with or without Undeath.

Sorry if you weren't going to raise those questions, that's more for a general explanation of my reasoning here. Also my main focus is still on Undeath, as this is what makes that shield, and a lot of other things, really become crazy.

Bashev · August 6

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

For witch shield are you talking about? The one that scales with health?

Yes, the one that is able to be spammed, although the ultimate shield is insanely large tbh.

"But it only heals if you have cruxes."
-Doesn't matter, Hardened Ward during the glory days never healed and look at how tanky it could make people.

"But you have to stack a good bit of health to make it good."
-Not really and everyone is stacking health anyways these days as anyone with under 30k health will usually die to the first combo to hit them. Bastion CP and around 37k health is enough to make it a 14-15k shield and that's hardly a sacrifice. Add in the easy sustain these days and you have something that's much better than an spammable 15k heal with or without Undeath.

Sorry if you weren't going to raise those questions, that's more for a general explanation of my reasoning here. Also my main focus is still on Undeath, as this is what makes that shield, and a lot of other things, really become crazy.

But hardened armor is stronger and way cheaper and i ve never seen ppl complaining about it. Or you talk about the other morph that has 1 second extra shield which is bigger?

PhoenixGrey · August 6

Nerf everything that scales with health and cap health in pvp will be a good start

PhoenixGrey · August 6

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

WreckfulAbandon · August 6

Bashev wrote: »

But hardened armor is stronger and way cheaper and i ve never seen ppl complaining about it. Or you talk about the other morph that has 1 second extra shield which is bigger?

Except it's not way cheaper? Around base 4.5k cost vs Hardened Ward base 4k cost. Also the primary scaling resource is something that everyone is required to stack anyway, and it's not capped by a second resource like Hardened Ward.

Bashev · August 6

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

But hardened armor is stronger and way cheaper and i ve never seen ppl complaining about it. Or you talk about the other morph that has 1 second extra shield which is bigger?

Except it's not way cheaper? Around base 4.5k cost vs Hardened Ward base 4k cost. Also the primary scaling resource is something that everyone is required to stack anyway, and it's not capped by a second resource like Hardened Ward.

I was talking about hardened armor, the DK skill. It is 2700k magicka the base cost.

WreckfulAbandon · August 6

Bashev wrote: »

I was talking about hardened armor, the DK skill. It is 2700k magicka the base cost.

Ok, I'll bite. Please explain the reasoning of bringing up DK hardened armor in a discussion about the interaction of the Undeath passive and damage shields. Geez man I've seen you post reasonable thoughts/arguments in the past and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

LittlePinkDot · August 6

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for a long time and now the ridiculous arcanist shield is propelling it to new heights. Sorc having good shields was a bad thing according to ZOS but looks like they just had to pave the way for a new shield class.

My Arcanist isn't a vampire. Nerf undeath if you want. But leave my 27.k health bow Arcanists shield alone.

Fyi sorc has streak. Arcanist has crap mobility.

Imagine thinking sorc still has better mobility in 2023

It's still miles better than Arcanists mobility.