Sun Shield rework… when?

Tyrant_Tim

Now… I understand that you have to sell new content, and that making the Arcanist awesome does just that, but after seeing that class receive a functional version of Blazing Shield, it confounds me why we have yet to see any changes.


While Radiant Ward receives some niche use in PvE, it is a very rare occurrence to see someone using Blazing Shield in any form of content, the sacrifices necessary to make any build that has high enough health to get damage from it, make the build completely unplayable, as you don’t have enough resources, or actual damage, to function.

It’s a massive wasted opportunity.

An ability named Sun Shield should be an iconic Templar ability, either amazing defensively or offensively, it provides nothing to that effect.

Right now the class is one of two that lack a fun mechanic, this could be solved by playing off of Sun Shield, similar to how Bound Armaments on Sorcerer, or Molten Whip received engaging mechanics, it would be nice if the last of the four original classes, Templar, could receive that same level of engagement.

So here is my challenge, if you had to completely rework Sun Shield and its morphs, and envision them around their ability names, what would you consider for them?…

• Sun Shield
• Radiant Ward
• Blazing Shield

My answer to this would be…

Sun Shield could be an ability that while slotted on either bar builds up stacks by blocking direct damage, to increase the size of the ward when activated. Radiant Ward could add block mitigation for each stack, with Blazing Shield building up Bash Damage with each stack.

Or if all else fails and this ability is doomed to mediocrity, having a parallel buff to Major Cowardice found on Mass Hysteria, could be Sun Shield receiving Major Courage as an AoE buff to your group with the same radius as Healing Ritual. This would at the very least, give Templar a place as a competitive support, whereas right now, there are significantly better options.

Reverb

Not gonna happen. Someone at Zeni will read this and translate it to the devs as “more Templar nerfs”.

Tyrant_Tim

Reverb wrote: »

Not gonna happen. Someone at Zeni will read this and translate it to the devs as “more Templar nerfs”.

You’re probably right, this would have to be the 1,000th time anyone has asked for Sun Shield to have a purpose in this game.

Tyrant_Tim

I brought this up earlier, and hate to hammer on the same points, but this ability is useless.

If this ability is supposed to function as a tool for tanking, why does it not get mitigated by block?


Sun Shield needs a complete redesign.

mmtaniac

I would love too see finally some class defense that is not healing. Healing is ok but not perfect form of defense i love Warden Crystallized Shield ability it's nice and unique. New Arcanist shield is perfect too ,something templar Sun shield could be but it won't. I like major protection but putting it on Toppling charge is waste for me. I would like too see it on Sun Shield and change how shield stack (offensive stat) at least at one morph and not from x enemy it's bad mechanic ,the more enemy is nearby the stronger the shield it's bad and useless mechanic. The better would be crux similiar mechanic , sun shield get 1 stack per cast of ability, and after 3 stacks you get something extra. Still better than current edition. I jab 3x and cast strong shield for defense not have it non stop.

ssewallb14_ESO

Yeah, I would really like to see Blazing Shield go back to the magicka scaling version from the early game. It was only ever "OP" because of the bug that made the damage scaling stack multiple times. It made for a unique playstyle that punished players for getting too thirsty during execute phase, which was more or less deleted from the game when 1.6 came out.

Or at least make it do something useful. It's been a useless morph for years at this point.

Tonturri

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I brought this up earlier, and hate to hammer on the same points, but this ability is useless.

If this ability is supposed to function as a tool for tanking, why does it not get mitigated by block?


Sun Shield needs a complete redesign.

Wait is this all damage shields? I thought they changed this some years back...maybe that was making armor/res work with shields and I'm mis remembering.

Also, on another note, it's odd that the blazing shield morph doesn't seem all that much better than the alternative morph on a pve tank build consdering how much health you would expect a tank to have (40k or thereabouts, probably a little more). it has a 12.8k tooltip with ~43k health (turning tide, torug, engine guardian just for a quick setup), which is 3.8k damage, compared to 3.4k damage on activation for the other morph. It's just bad.

Tyrant_Tim

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, I would really like to see Blazing Shield go back to the magicka scaling version from the early game. It was only ever "OP" because of the bug that made the damage scaling stack multiple times. It made for a unique playstyle that punished players for getting too thirsty during execute phase, which was more or less deleted from the game when 1.6 came out.

Or at least make it do something useful. It's been a useless morph for years at this point.

Right, ever since battle spirit halved the ward, and the damage, it’s been completely useless, you do around 1/4th of the damage you should be doing when it goes off.

Necrotech_Master

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I brought this up earlier, and hate to hammer on the same points, but this ability is useless.

If this ability is supposed to function as a tool for tanking, why does it not get mitigated by block?


Sun Shield needs a complete redesign.

because of pvp

thats exactly what troll tanks did back in the early days, perma block with a shield, they almost wouldnt even need any healing at that point, just recasting their shields

Tyrant_Tim

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I brought this up earlier, and hate to hammer on the same points, but this ability is useless.

If this ability is supposed to function as a tool for tanking, why does it not get mitigated by block?


Sun Shield needs a complete redesign.

because of pvp

thats exactly what troll tanks did back in the early days, perma block with a shield, they almost wouldnt even need any healing at that point, just recasting their shields

Okay, so let’s bounce around ideas on how to improve this ability. I like the idea I proposed, but what else could be done to make this functional?

Necrotech_Master

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I brought this up earlier, and hate to hammer on the same points, but this ability is useless.

If this ability is supposed to function as a tool for tanking, why does it not get mitigated by block?


Sun Shield needs a complete redesign.

because of pvp

thats exactly what troll tanks did back in the early days, perma block with a shield, they almost wouldnt even need any healing at that point, just recasting their shields

Okay, so let’s bounce around ideas on how to improve this ability. I like the idea I proposed, but what else could be done to make this functional?

my first idea to make it better would be to not scale the shield based on how many enemies you hit with it

in 1v1 pvp, or lone boss encounters, the shield value i agree is way too small to be useful, its only moderately OK when dealing with larger trash mobs

blazing shield could give a fixed shield amount, then when it exploded from dmg, it could give some other kind of benefit (something like the deep breath DK ability type thing, which is very similar to how this was functioning)

Tyrant_Tim

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I brought this up earlier, and hate to hammer on the same points, but this ability is useless.

If this ability is supposed to function as a tool for tanking, why does it not get mitigated by block?


Sun Shield needs a complete redesign.

because of pvp

thats exactly what troll tanks did back in the early days, perma block with a shield, they almost wouldnt even need any healing at that point, just recasting their shields

Okay, so let’s bounce around ideas on how to improve this ability. I like the idea I proposed, but what else could be done to make this functional?

my first idea to make it better would be to not scale the shield based on how many enemies you hit with it

in 1v1 pvp, or lone boss encounters, the shield value i agree is way too small to be useful, its only moderately OK when dealing with larger trash mobs

blazing shield could give a fixed shield amount, then when it exploded from dmg, it could give some other kind of benefit (something like the deep breath DK ability type thing, which is very similar to how this was functioning)

Agreed that the enemy scaling on the shield should at most, be a morph option, not the entire identity of the ability. And if that is what is insisted, then both morphs need the same enemy scaling as Radiant, and a much larger base value to begin with to compensate for battle spirit double dipping, and for PvE’s lack of block mitigation while warded.

For Blazing Shield, I wouldn’t be opposed to flat values of damage on Shield expiration that scale with weapon or spell damage, rather than having the damage attached to the shield value, which is like mentioned earlier, already halved.

Necrotech_Master

i think the templars shield ability could in some way be similar to the DK ability inhale

base inhale ability: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies. (the scaling factor is healing for dmg, which more enemies = more healing, but the dmg is scaled based on your offense stats)

deep breath morph: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 2 seconds. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 2249 Flame Damage to nearby enemies. (basically the same as base ability, but will interrupt casting enemies and has a stronger delayed dmg burst)

draw essence: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 150% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and restoring 10% of the ability's cost for each enemy hit as Magicka. (heals for more, and additional scaling factor of restoring more mag based on number of enemies hit to refund some of the cost)

so along that vein, right now the scaling factor for the sun shield ability is the increased shield size, but as noted this is problematic

so my proposed solution:

base skill: grants shield scaled on max hp + some other scaling effect (since templar maybe healing received or healing done, or resources)

radiant ward: grants shield based on max hp, and this morph being a ward maybe could have some kind of scaling dmg reduction (though dmg reduction might be bad for pvp, but could still give some kind of buff to make you "tankier", maybe stronger values of the base morph) (the current bonus from this morph is stronger shield scaling, +20% per enemy instead of +4% per enemy)

blazing shield: for this morph, i would make it give the shield + explode when it expires or ends and deals some base dmg, that could scale up for the number of enemies (more enemies = more dmg) (the current morph has the dmg based on how much the shield absorbed before it expires, only 30% of the dmg, which is useless in pvp with the low shield value)

this might make more sense, so it would still have the shield in all cases and theme to that, but it has other effects depending on the morph (one morph focusing on being more "tanky" and one morph being more "offensive")

Tyrant_Tim

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think the templars shield ability could in some way be similar to the DK ability inhale

base inhale ability: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies. (the scaling factor is healing for dmg, which more enemies = more healing, but the dmg is scaled based on your offense stats)

deep breath morph: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 2 seconds. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 2249 Flame Damage to nearby enemies. (basically the same as base ability, but will interrupt casting enemies and has a stronger delayed dmg burst)

draw essence: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 150% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and restoring 10% of the ability's cost for each enemy hit as Magicka. (heals for more, and additional scaling factor of restoring more mag based on number of enemies hit to refund some of the cost)

so along that vein, right now the scaling factor for the sun shield ability is the increased shield size, but as noted this is problematic

so my proposed solution:

base skill: grants shield scaled on max hp + some other scaling effect (since templar maybe healing received or healing done, or resources)

radiant ward: grants shield based on max hp, and this morph being a ward maybe could have some kind of scaling dmg reduction (though dmg reduction might be bad for pvp, but could still give some kind of buff to make you "tankier", maybe stronger values of the base morph) (the current bonus from this morph is stronger shield scaling, +20% per enemy instead of +4% per enemy)

blazing shield: for this morph, i would make it give the shield + explode when it expires or ends and deals some base dmg, that could scale up for the number of enemies (more enemies = more dmg) (the current morph has the dmg based on how much the shield absorbed before it expires, only 30% of the dmg, which is useless in pvp with the low shield value)

this might make more sense, so it would still have the shield in all cases and theme to that, but it has other effects depending on the morph (one morph focusing on being more "tanky" and one morph being more "offensive")

That might work, I genuinely don’t see this ability working as an AoE enemy scaling one in the current state of the game though, it’s way too niche and even with those provided changes, it would continue to remain very niche instead of an ability widely considered when build making.

After Templar lost Blinding Flashes, Sun Shield was the only thing Templar had left for defense, and it’s just been languishing away seeing minimal use, and when it is used, it’s generally for trash packs in dungeons that propose zero threat whatsoever to begin with.

We just can’t have a shield that small with such a massive cost, and such low scaling with health, having a dependency on multiple nearby enemies, or a damage type dependent on both that shields size, and the amount of damage dealt to it while both wards and damage is halved in PvP. There are way too many variables attached to the ability.

There isn’t a drawing board anywhere in the world where this ability is acceptable with Battle Spirit, let alone competitive without.

Necrotech_Master

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think the templars shield ability could in some way be similar to the DK ability inhale

base inhale ability: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies. (the scaling factor is healing for dmg, which more enemies = more healing, but the dmg is scaled based on your offense stats)

deep breath morph: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 2 seconds. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 2249 Flame Damage to nearby enemies. (basically the same as base ability, but will interrupt casting enemies and has a stronger delayed dmg burst)

draw essence: Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 150% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and restoring 10% of the ability's cost for each enemy hit as Magicka. (heals for more, and additional scaling factor of restoring more mag based on number of enemies hit to refund some of the cost)

so along that vein, right now the scaling factor for the sun shield ability is the increased shield size, but as noted this is problematic

so my proposed solution:

base skill: grants shield scaled on max hp + some other scaling effect (since templar maybe healing received or healing done, or resources)

radiant ward: grants shield based on max hp, and this morph being a ward maybe could have some kind of scaling dmg reduction (though dmg reduction might be bad for pvp, but could still give some kind of buff to make you "tankier", maybe stronger values of the base morph) (the current bonus from this morph is stronger shield scaling, +20% per enemy instead of +4% per enemy)

blazing shield: for this morph, i would make it give the shield + explode when it expires or ends and deals some base dmg, that could scale up for the number of enemies (more enemies = more dmg) (the current morph has the dmg based on how much the shield absorbed before it expires, only 30% of the dmg, which is useless in pvp with the low shield value)

this might make more sense, so it would still have the shield in all cases and theme to that, but it has other effects depending on the morph (one morph focusing on being more "tanky" and one morph being more "offensive")

That might work, I genuinely don’t see this ability working as an AoE enemy scaling one in the current state of the game though, it’s way too niche and even with those provided changes, it would remain very niche instead of an ability people have to consider when build making.

After Templar lost Blinding Flashes, Sun Shield was the only thing Templar had left for defense, and it’s just been languishing away seeing minimal use, and when it is used, it’s generally for trash packs in dungeons that propose zero threat whatsoever to begin with.

We just can’t have a shield that small, with such weak scaling with health, or a damage type dependent on both that shields size, and the amount of damage dealt to it while both wards and damage is halved in PvP.

There isn’t a drawing board anywhere in the world where this ability is acceptable with Battle Spirit.

thats why i was trying to decouple the scaling element from the shield and making it provide some other bonus

healing received or resource restore would be useful for tanks, and blazing shield could have a dmg amount not tied to the shield, which would make it more useful for a dps build

im not sure what you could do to make it really effective in pvp, because almost all dmg shield abilities are not great in pvp right now regardless of which one your looking at

Tyrant_Tim

@Necrotech_Master, if you had to completely rework Sun Shield and its morphs, and envision them around their ability names, what would you consider for them?…

• Sun Shield
• Radiant Ward
• Blazing Shield

That’s an open invite to anyone reading this, let’s get creative here. I want to hear opinions on this.

Necrotech_Master

i had some rough designs in an earlier post

sun shield (being the base skill) should be the shield, and maybe some kind of other buff which could scale based on enemies in range

radiant ward (sounds like a tank morph) should maybe give some small dmg reduction (or just minor protection or something along the same scale) while the shield holds, and stronger scaled buffs from the base morph

blazing shield (sounds like a dps morph) should give the shield and then explode for some amount of dmg after the shield ends (either expires or depleted), possibly scaling on number of enemies (similar to the plaguebreak explosion), the balance factor here would be if you wanted the most of the explosion, you would need to focus on dmg, but the shield value would be smaller (still scaled on health), if you wanted a tank with more dmg, you could get a stronger shield, but the explosion would be a little weaker

Tyrant_Tim

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i had some rough designs in an earlier post

sun shield (being the base skill) should be the shield, and maybe some kind of other buff which could scale based on enemies in range

radiant ward (sounds like a tank morph) should maybe give some small dmg reduction (or just minor protection or something along the same scale) while the shield holds, and stronger scaled buffs from the base morph

blazing shield (sounds like a dps morph) should give the shield and then explode for some amount of dmg after the shield ends (either expires or depleted), possibly scaling on number of enemies (similar to the plaguebreak explosion), the balance factor here would be if you wanted the most of the explosion, you would need to focus on dmg, but the shield value would be smaller (still scaled on health), if you wanted a tank with more dmg, you could get a stronger shield, but the explosion would be a little weaker

If I could alter Sun Shield in another fashion than the original concept I had, it would be to give your weapon and shield an aura that gives you increased effectiveness when blocking, as if you have the power of the Sun on your Shield.

I like your idea for Radiant Ward and would love to see Major Courage applied in an AoE on activation.

For the damage from your Blazing Shield to do anything, with the scaling on multiple enemies, it would need to be early Proxy Det values. Maybe instead, if they were to add light-to-medium damage to enemies that hit your shield, similar to Spiked Armor?

Tyrant_Tim

@ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_GinaBruno, every time this ability gets brought up, it gets radio silent.

This could mean one of two things, people don’t believe the ability is worth consideration, or that they all universally believe it isn’t working.

I know there has been a statement in the past, maybe update 37, about Sun Shield… given Arcanist has came out and had a patch to enjoy a functioning version of our skill, can Templar have it back, or something different instead?

Due to block not mitigating wards, among the list of other problems mentioned, Sun Shield and Radiant Ward fail to fit into it’s role as a tool for a tanks, and Blazing Shield fails to fulfill any role.

Billium813

As a Templar Tank, the Radiant Ward morph is legitimately good in PvE, but the Blazing Shield morph is very under utilized in all content. Comparatively, Radiant Ward does similar damage, but produces a vastly larger shield!

Radiant Ward

• 42.6k Health -> 27.4k shield w/ ~12 enemies nearby
• Deals 3771 damage to each enemy
• Costs 3800 Magicka

Blazing Shield

• 42.6k Health -> 15.8k shield w/ ~12 enemies nearby
• Deals 3718 damage to each enemy after shield is fully hit down by enemies
• Costs 4060 Magicka

Does the development team see strong usage of the Blazing Shield morph? Similar to how Empowering Chains for DK was seen as under utilized. I would love to see Blazing Shield reworked a bit to improve its PvP usefulness.

---

My thoughts

1. Blazing Shield costs way too much for what it does. 4100 Magicka is too expensive for a crappy shield that also does crappy damage. You put the shield on, it immediately pops, and does like 1.5k damage in PvP... such a terrible investment.
2. It's hit by Battle Spirit twice. The shield is reduced by Battle Spirit, limiting the potential damage output, but then the damage itself is reduced by the opponents Battle Spirit reduction. This is a big PvP issue with any skill that stores up damage, then bursts damage out later. PoTL has a similar issue and ZOS didn't know how to fix it, so they just reduced the damage cap.
3. Living Dark is just better. For Living Dark, you get the WHOLE 12 second duration AND it costs 400 less Magicka. You end up getting WAY MORE value from Living Dark. Granted it doesn't do damage, but the damage from Blazing Shield is so pitiful that the movement speed debuff is more useful.
4. Compared to Radiant Ward, it isn't as satisfying to use. Radiant Ward shows the number of enemies that boosting the shield. With Blazing Shield, its really hard to tell if the opponent was in the range to count, or even if they took the damage. The animation is just weak IMO.
5. The shield scales too low for PvP. Increasing the shield by 4% per enemy really isn't that good! PvP is too fast paced and spread out. You would be lucky to catch 3-4 players in the AOE, given a paltry 12%-16% shield increase... we're talking something like a +500-800 damage shield increase on a 5k shield when you apparently have 3-4 opponents within 8 meters of you... IN PVP. That's just not worth the effort.

Keep in mind that Radiant Ward actually seems to deal MORE DAMAGE, on activation, AND GIVES A BIGGER SHIELD, even in PvP with Battle Spirit, thanks to the +20% scaling per opponent hit. AND, Radiant Ward costs less... smh

---

ALTERNATIVE!

It seems to me like Blazing Shield should scale the damage shield in a different way from Radiant Ward. Both are trying to scale the shield based on opponents nearby. The Radiant Ward morph seems more applicable to large groups and Blazing Shield could be more applicable to large, boss enemies. Perhaps the damage shield's increased strength could be based on the Max Health of the largest enemy nearby.

New Blazing Shield

Create a tether of solar rays to a nearby enemy with the highest Max Health and gain a damage shield that absorbs up to 4800 damage for 6 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your Max Health. The shield's strength is increased by 20% of the Max Health of the tethered enemy, up to a maximum of 100k Health.

While tethered, the enemy takes 30% of the damage the shield takes. The tether is broken if the enemy moves 8 meters away from you, or if the shield ends.

Tonturri

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master, if you had to completely rework Sun Shield and its morphs, and envision them around their ability names, what would you consider for them?…

• Sun Shield
• Radiant Ward
• Blazing Shield

That’s an open invite to anyone reading this, let’s get creative here. I want to hear opinions on this.

Disclaimer: Not a templar main, just a bit bored and with internet access and enjoys brainstorming, buuuut...

I think a scaling factor based on how much of the templar 'house' they are standing in would be cool, in addition to whatever else. Standing in the rune, +something. Standing in the purify whatsit, +even more. Make it just 'for every one of your own ground effects you're standing in, gain XYZ'. I think trying to fight a templar standing in its fully built house should be ridiculously scary.

This would give them cleansing ritual, rune focus, and spear shards, plus maybe nova? Maybe it would need to be capped.

Also, the benefit should scale with targets, but in a 50%, 33%, 17% fashion - in that hit one target and you get 50% of the total benefit (to maintain usefulness in single target fights), 33% more with two targets, and the last 17% with the third target. Divvy it up and adjust for balance. Mind I'm not saying buff the skill by 50% for hitting one target, then 83% for two targets, etc - just that its scaling across multiple targets should be smoothed out some, as currently it seems feast or famine when used against multiple targets vs one target.

Base skill: The usual boring health based shield, deals damage on press, minor shield strength gain per target damaged. Damage doubled at max targets (so 1.5% with one target, 1.83% with two targets, 2.0x with 3).

Radiant Ward: Personally I just think this sounds more like a tank name, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Damage gain exchanged for shield gain per target and per your own beneficial class AoE you're standing in and deal plink damage to enemies when struck in melee range. While the shield holds, blocking damage reduces damage the shield takes like blocking should and dealing damage while blocking applies major maim (or something, idk, something strong but short lived) to a target. Additionally increases maximum block interval (how many times you can lose stam from blocking in, I think it's 0.25 sec base?) to...something higher than it currently is. Scales on health. Ideally, this should be somewhere in the range of a 18k-20k shield at start (so 13k base plus 6.5k for one enemy), ~24k (rounded) at two enemies, and 26k at 3 enemies.

Blazing Shield: DPS morph. No longer scales on health, but on offensive stats (to a cap). Generates...Iunno, 4k absorb? every 2 seconds (or higher interval? Lower interval? Not sure what exact value would be valuable in pvp, either). Absorb shield stacks if the previous absorb isn't fully consumed, up to a max of 10-12k(?). Damage dealt to the shield is reflected back to the attacker with no requirement for melee range. Every 2 seconds, if the shield holds (or 3? Who knows), gain a charge of <Templar Themed Buff Name> that makes offensive skills more beefy and using one consumes a charge. Deal x% more damage to targets that have recently taken damage from the absorb shield reflect for 2-3 seconds, where x% is however much damage templar needs to make up for in however parses are stacking up right now. Maybe this one could have the shield strength scaling partially from health, while the damage returned from the absorb - a percentage of the shield strength - scales from damage stats. Just to help preserve that tanky-reflects-damage class fantasy a bit.

Also, templar should get a class mechanic that gives them Generic Combo Point Name charges at an interval for standing in their own stuff - one charge every 6 seconds, or every 3 standing in one of their fields, or every 1 standing in two fields and consumed on skill use, up to a cap of three (or two?) so they can be banked but not excessively.

Anyway, this all probably ridiculously overpowered as written and will never happen and all current templar players would probs hate it, but I wish for some sort of class mechanic based around templar's 'house' with some added unique interactions for the last skill in each of templar's skill lines (something similar to the blazing shield interaction). Also jesus beam should have a morph that turns it into a 4 second executioner skill where you use it when an enemy is below 25% health, then 4 sec later they take a frickton of damage high enough to compensate for that it's a delayed execute, and Healing Ritual should be the final skill in Restoring Light and have one morph be the big honkin AoE heal while the other should be a massive single target HoT + oodles of buffs and whatnot.

Tyrant_Tim

Billium813 wrote: »

As a Templar Tank, the Radiant Ward morph is legitimately good in PvE, but the Blazing Shield morph is very under utilized in all content. Comparatively, Radiant Ward does similar damage, but produces a vastly larger shield!

Radiant Ward

• 42.6k Health -> 27.4k shield w/ ~12 enemies nearby
• Deals 3771 damage to each enemy
• Costs 3800 Magicka

Blazing Shield

• 42.6k Health -> 15.8k shield w/ ~12 enemies nearby
• Deals 3718 damage to each enemy after shield is fully hit down by enemies
• Costs 4060 Magicka

Thank you for this, it’s painful to see how blatantly bad Blazing Shield is.

It doesn’t fit anywhere, on any build.

As far as Radiant Ward, I would have to disagree about the effectiveness of it. The ability provides zero utility to the group, in a game where group utility defines your class as a support…

You would be better off running Bone Shield because at least that provides a synergy.

Tyrant_Tim

Tonturri wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master, if you had to completely rework Sun Shield and its morphs, and envision them around their ability names, what would you consider for them?…

• Sun Shield
• Radiant Ward
• Blazing Shield

That’s an open invite to anyone reading this, let’s get creative here. I want to hear opinions on this.

Disclaimer: Not a templar main, just a bit bored and with internet access and enjoys brainstorming, buuuut...

I think a scaling factor based on how much of the templar 'house' they are standing in would be cool, in addition to whatever else. Standing in the rune, +something. Standing in the purify whatsit, +even more. Make it just 'for every one of your own ground effects you're standing in, gain XYZ'. I think trying to fight a templar standing in its fully built house should be ridiculously scary.

This would give them cleansing ritual, rune focus, and spear shards, plus maybe nova? Maybe it would need to be capped.

Also, the benefit should scale with targets, but in a 50%, 33%, 17% fashion - in that hit one target and you get 50% of the total benefit (to maintain usefulness in single target fights), 33% more with two targets, and the last 17% with the third target. Divvy it up and adjust for balance. Mind I'm not saying buff the skill by 50% for hitting one target, then 83% for two targets, etc - just that its scaling across multiple targets should be smoothed out some, as currently it seems feast or famine when used against multiple targets vs one target.

Base skill: The usual boring health based shield, deals damage on press, minor shield strength gain per target damaged. Damage doubled at max targets (so 1.5% with one target, 1.83% with two targets, 2.0x with 3).

Radiant Ward: Personally I just think this sounds more like a tank name, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Damage gain exchanged for shield gain per target and per your own beneficial class AoE you're standing in and deal plink damage to enemies when struck in melee range. While the shield holds, blocking damage reduces damage the shield takes like blocking should and dealing damage while blocking applies major maim (or something, idk, something strong but short lived) to a target. Additionally increases maximum block interval (how many times you can lose stam from blocking in, I think it's 0.25 sec base?) to...something higher than it currently is. Scales on health. Ideally, this should be somewhere in the range of a 18k-20k shield at start (so 13k base plus 6.5k for one enemy), ~24k (rounded) at two enemies, and 26k at 3 enemies.

Blazing Shield: DPS morph. No longer scales on health, but on offensive stats (to a cap). Generates...Iunno, 4k absorb? every 2 seconds (or higher interval? Lower interval? Not sure what exact value would be valuable in pvp, either). Absorb shield stacks if the previous absorb isn't fully consumed, up to a max of 10-12k(?). Damage dealt to the shield is reflected back to the attacker with no requirement for melee range. Every 2 seconds, if the shield holds (or 3? Who knows), gain a charge of <Templar Themed Buff Name> that makes offensive skills more beefy and using one consumes a charge. Deal x% more damage to targets that have recently taken damage from the absorb shield reflect for 2-3 seconds, where x% is however much damage templar needs to make up for in however parses are stacking up right now. Maybe this one could have the shield strength scaling partially from health, while the damage returned from the absorb - a percentage of the shield strength - scales from damage stats. Just to help preserve that tanky-reflects-damage class fantasy a bit.

Also, templar should get a class mechanic that gives them Generic Combo Point Name charges at an interval for standing in their own stuff - one charge every 6 seconds, or every 3 standing in one of their fields, or every 1 standing in two fields and consumed on skill use, up to a cap of three (or two?) so they can be banked but not excessively.

Anyway, this all probably ridiculously overpowered as written and will never happen and all current templar players would probs hate it, but I wish for some sort of class mechanic based around templar's 'house' with some added unique interactions for the last skill in each of templar's skill lines (something similar to the blazing shield interaction). Also jesus beam should have a morph that turns it into a 4 second executioner skill where you use it when an enemy is below 25% health, then 4 sec later they take a frickton of damage high enough to compensate for that it's a delayed execute, and Healing Ritual should be the final skill in Restoring Light and have one morph be the big honkin AoE heal while the other should be a massive single target HoT + oodles of buffs and whatnot.

Absolutely love where your thought process is with these changes, if the numbers and percentages were reigned in, it would make the ability go from forgotten to iconic.

Not to mention, the housePlar suggestions are great too. It’s kind of strange when other classes can play house better than Templar.

Tyrant_Tim

After seeing multiple possible ways to revitalize this ability, it’s clear that it can be done, as none of the ideas have broken the game.

Faulgor

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master, if you had to completely rework Sun Shield and its morphs, and envision them around their ability names, what would you consider for them?…

• Sun Shield
• Radiant Ward
• Blazing Shield

That’s an open invite to anyone reading this, let’s get creative here. I want to hear opinions on this.

Honestly I'd probably design it like Bound Armaments and Grim Focus, where you collect stacks and can activate the active component when you feel like - except you collect stacks defensively, either when blocking or taking direct damage.

Sun Shield:
When slotted on either bar, gain a stack of Radiance when taking direct damage, up to x max. Each stack increases your block mitigation by y%. When used, gain a damage shield that absorbs z damage. The shield scales with Radiance stacks and your max health.

Radiant Ward:
When used, you and your allies within z meters heal x health over y seconds.

Blazing Shield:
When used, deal x Flame damage over y seconds to enemies within z meters.

Tyrant_Tim

Faulgor wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master, if you had to completely rework Sun Shield and its morphs, and envision them around their ability names, what would you consider for them?…

• Sun Shield
• Radiant Ward
• Blazing Shield

That’s an open invite to anyone reading this, let’s get creative here. I want to hear opinions on this.

Honestly I'd probably design it like Bound Armaments and Grim Focus, where you collect stacks and can activate the active component when you feel like - except you collect stacks defensively, either when blocking or taking direct damage.

Sun Shield:
When slotted on either bar, gain a stack of Radiance when taking direct damage, up to x max. Each stack increases your block mitigation by y%. When used, gain a damage shield that absorbs z damage. The shield scales with Radiance stacks and your max health.

Radiant Ward:
When used, you and your allies within z meters heal x health over y seconds.

Blazing Shield:
When used, deal x Flame damage over y seconds to enemies within z meters.

Great ideas! What kind of numbers would we be looking at for those heals and flame damage?

Necrotech_Master

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i had some rough designs in an earlier post

sun shield (being the base skill) should be the shield, and maybe some kind of other buff which could scale based on enemies in range

radiant ward (sounds like a tank morph) should maybe give some small dmg reduction (or just minor protection or something along the same scale) while the shield holds, and stronger scaled buffs from the base morph

blazing shield (sounds like a dps morph) should give the shield and then explode for some amount of dmg after the shield ends (either expires or depleted), possibly scaling on number of enemies (similar to the plaguebreak explosion), the balance factor here would be if you wanted the most of the explosion, you would need to focus on dmg, but the shield value would be smaller (still scaled on health), if you wanted a tank with more dmg, you could get a stronger shield, but the explosion would be a little weaker

If I could alter Sun Shield in another fashion than the original concept I had, it would be to give your weapon and shield an aura that gives you increased effectiveness when blocking, as if you have the power of the Sun on your Shield.

I like your idea for Radiant Ward and would love to see Major Courage applied in an AoE on activation.

For the damage from your Blazing Shield to do anything, with the scaling on multiple enemies, it would need to be early Proxy Det values. Maybe instead, if they were to add light-to-medium damage to enemies that hit your shield, similar to Spiked Armor?

ive never really noticed the return dmg on spiked bone shield to be honest, firstly it only works on enemies in melee range, and secondly it only works on direct dmg (i actually get better return dmg from the DK armor skill because it gives you the return dmg for 20 sec instead of 6/while the shield holds)

im also not sure on major courage, no player ability gives major courage right now (only very few sets do)

thats kind of what i was aiming for on blazing shield, kind of like proxy det except it could also scale up based on dmg/number of hits taken in addition to the number of enemies around you, right now the skill doesnt make a big enough shield, and 30% of a small shield is not a lot of return dmg (as noted in the visuals below)

from a pvp perspective i dont think this would be too OP, the user would have to be skilled enough to stack it with proxy det to get a double explosion, and because the dmg is scaling it wouldnt be able to crit either like proxy det, but it would certainly be better than the existing skill

Billium813

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

As a Templar Tank, the Radiant Ward morph is legitimately good in PvE, but the Blazing Shield morph is very under utilized in all content. Comparatively, Radiant Ward does similar damage, but produces a vastly larger shield!

Radiant Ward

• 42.6k Health -> 27.4k shield w/ ~12 enemies nearby
• Deals 3771 damage to each enemy
• Costs 3800 Magicka

Blazing Shield

• 42.6k Health -> 15.8k shield w/ ~12 enemies nearby
• Deals 3718 damage to each enemy after shield is fully hit down by enemies
• Costs 4060 Magicka

As far as Radiant Ward, I would have to disagree about the effectiveness of it. The ability provides zero utility to the group, in a game where group utility defines your class as a support…

You would be better off running Bone Shield because at least that provides a synergy.

Synergies aren't everything. Bone Shield costs Stamina, and an awful lot to boot. Not really something you want as a Tank, and, being stamina, it doesn't work well with Spell Symmetry. The synergy to allies is not that impressive too. You really only see Tanks run Bone Shield and Altar in PUGs that want to run no Healer support. That isn't really something to plan for and, as Tank, healing your allies isn't really your job. Better to be good at what you are supposed to be doing, then mediocre at lots of other roles.

Then, there is the shield sizes. Bone Shield is about the same size, BUT Radiant Ward goes up REALLY quick with +20% per enemy! Combine that with Vateshran Void Bash and you're gonna have a 20k+ shield consistently. Even with Spell Symmetry debuff of -50%, the shield will be about the same size! It's a good shield, and being Mag, it's spammable in tight situations without sacrificing Stam!

There's also passives. The Aedric Spear passives are better than the Undaunted ones, of which there are none! Spear Wall is worth it.

Bone Shield is fine for a generic shield that everyone has access to, but Radiant Ward is very good at being a big shield, which is what you want as a Tank!

Tyrant_Tim

@Billium813, Templar tanks are ranked at the bottom for choice of tanks in trials, and it’s for a very specific reason. They provide no group utility while survivability is not an issue for tanks of any class in this game.

For the longest time I played a Templar tank and ran Sun Shield, not because the ability is good, but because you have literally nothing else in your kit… and let’s be honest; I just liked the visual and uniqueness of having an ability no one else was using, in a spec that got no love or respect, clearing hard content.

After making a tank on every class, and climbing the proverbial mountain of content on them, I can 100% agree with the statement that Templar tanks are the worst, and it makes me sad, knowing my first ever character, a Nord Templar, is just not it.

Templars used to be necessary for execute and boss pushing, remember when Nova provided 30% damage mitigation?

Remember when Radiant Aura used to have an extremely unique Minor Endurance and Intellect, and Repentance gave the whole group stamina?

Were you there for when Templar had Blinding Flashes, an ability that caused nearby enemies to miss 20% of the time?

Templar hasn’t had anything to compensate all of the identity loss it’s suffered… they don’t have additional block mitigation past the 10% of the passive, they don’t have a health based heal (RIP Living Dark), have no AoE root, have no in-class pull ability, and provide nothing unique, other than a Purify synergy that is near useless in PvE, or Minor Expedition, and Minor Sorcery is useless when you’re guaranteed to have a Dragonknight in your group.

Playing a Templar tank in ESO at the moment is an effort to ride against the current.

Now, you mentioned using the Vateshran pull for add fights, and the efficiency of Sun Shield with that synergy…

Every other class can use the same arena weapon and not require Sun Shield to survive those add pulls on a tank, they are add pulls. Then while casually surviving due to Block Mitigation’s magic, those same other classes using their own class abilities… can root those enemies in place or stun them all to keep them stationary, while giving a whole arsenal of Major and Minor Buffs to the group.

Boss fights are where tanks truly shine, and the efficiency of Sun Shield in both morphs is outshined by Bone Shield, (An ability that anybody can access) as the vast overwhelming majority of boss fights in ESO consist of one boss, with no adds, or when they are present, tend to be ranged.

Also, if Sun Shield were to be reworked within it’s identity as a tank skill, you would still have that Spear Wall passive.

Tldr; Both morphs of Sun Shield are not fine, and are extremely niche, and almost any replacement would be a better iteration than what we have currently.

Faulgor

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master, if you had to completely rework Sun Shield and its morphs, and envision them around their ability names, what would you consider for them?…

• Sun Shield
• Radiant Ward
• Blazing Shield

That’s an open invite to anyone reading this, let’s get creative here. I want to hear opinions on this.

Honestly I'd probably design it like Bound Armaments and Grim Focus, where you collect stacks and can activate the active component when you feel like - except you collect stacks defensively, either when blocking or taking direct damage.

Sun Shield:
When slotted on either bar, gain a stack of Radiance when taking direct damage, up to x max. Each stack increases your block mitigation by y%. When used, gain a damage shield that absorbs z damage. The shield scales with Radiance stacks and your max health.

Radiant Ward:
When used, you and your allies within z meters heal x health over y seconds.

Blazing Shield:
When used, deal x Flame damage over y seconds to enemies within z meters.

Great ideas! What kind of numbers would we be looking at for those heals and flame damage?

Oh I am sure ZOS just has to check their spreadsheet to figure out the appropriate "power budget".

I'm not sure Templar would actually benefit that much from another HoT, but the effect is kind of similar to Echoing Vigor, so that seems like a good place to start. 6-10 seconds duration.
Alternatively, Radiant Ward could also apply buffs, debuffs, cleanse, or CC, but I'm unsure what would help Templars in this regard without making them too strong. Personally I would like a better self-cleanse option than ER.

For the flame damage I thought Damage over Time would be a better fit for the elemental type, and to discourage some kind of new bomb Templar in PvP (Gods know that would not go over well). But I still think it should be more on the bursty side as far as DoTs go, so a shorter duration (6-10 seconds) and higher damage per hit than say Solar Barrage would be appropriate imo, while DPS could be roughly the same.

I also didn't specificy, but the heal and damage of either morph could also scale with the Radiance stacks. That would change the equation further.

Billium813

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Billium813, Templar tanks are ranked at the bottom for choice of tanks in trials, and it’s for a very specific reason. They provide no group utility while survivability is not an issue for tanks of any class in this game.

For the longest time I played a Templar tank and ran Sun Shield, not because the ability is good, but because you have literally nothing else in your kit… and let’s be honest; I just liked the visual and uniqueness of having an ability no one else was using, in a spec that got no love or respect, clearing hard content.

After making a tank on every class, and climbing the proverbial mountain of content on them, I can 100% agree with the statement that Templar tanks are the worst, and it makes me sad, knowing my first ever character, a Nord Templar, is just not it.

Templars used to be necessary for execute and boss pushing, remember when Nova provided 30% damage mitigation?

Remember when Radiant Aura used to have an extremely unique Minor Endurance and Intellect, and Repentance gave the whole group stamina?

Were you there for when Templar had Blinding Flashes, an ability that caused nearby enemies to miss 20% of the time?

Templar hasn’t had anything to compensate all of the identity loss it’s suffered… they don’t have additional block mitigation past the 10% of the passive, they don’t have a health based heal (RIP Living Dark), have no AoE root, have no in-class pull ability, and provide nothing unique, other than a Purify synergy that is near useless in PvE, or Minor Expedition, and Minor Sorcery is useless when you’re guaranteed to have a Dragonknight in your group.

Playing a Templar tank in ESO at the moment is an effort to ride against the current.

Now, you mentioned using the Vateshran pull for add fights, and the efficiency of Sun Shield with that synergy…

Every other class can use the same arena weapon and not require Sun Shield to survive those add pulls on a tank, they are add pulls. Then while casually surviving due to Block Mitigation’s magic, those same other classes using their own class abilities… can root those enemies in place or stun them all to keep them stationary, while giving a whole arsenal of Major and Minor Buffs to the group.

Boss fights are where tanks truly shine, and the efficiency of Sun Shield in both morphs is outshined by Bone Shield, (An ability that anybody can access) as the vast overwhelming majority of boss fights in ESO consist of one boss, with no adds, or when they are present, tend to be ranged.

Also, if Sun Shield were to be reworked within it’s identity as a tank skill, you would still have that Spear Wall passive.

Tldr; Both morphs of Sun Shield are not fine, and are extremely niche, and almost any replacement would be a better iteration than what we have currently.

Don't confuse Templar's history of being totally shot on by nerfs and reworks to mean that Radiant Ward is therefore bad. I think it's good at what it does, and I haven't noticed any issues with it personally. I have been able to Templar Tank all Vet HM Dungeons with relative ease. Templar Tanking certainly has its pain points (Cleansing Ritual costs too much IMO and we have no CC, just off the top of my head), but just because they aren't BiS for Trials, doesn't mean they are bad. They can certainly be improved on by ZOS to make them more competitive, but they aren't a bad option.

Yes, Templar has lost tons of class identity over the years... it's sad and tragic and every class just gets to do what Templar provides anyway; it totally sucks. The Blinding Light skill did feel unique and very thematic for Templar, but honestly, RNG skills like that aren't really my cup of tea. They should have just reworked it to keep the thematic "blinding light" Tank element, but instead they just changed it to a DPS skill in "Radiant Destruction". No ZOS, Radiant Glory is not a good replacement for the utility of damage mitigation; a Tank isn't gonna use that as a heal.

Sad, but I digress.

---

I thought we were just talking about Sun Shield and it's morphs. There are plenty of other areas that Templar can be improved on for group synergy that Sun Shield doesn't have to be it. It seems like suggestions are just trying to cram group synergies into Sun Shield for the sake of Templar. Believe me, I get it, but don't forget that there are plenty of "support" skills that should be improved first. Unstable Core, Dark Flare & the Defile debuff in general, Restoring Aura, and Spear Shards over Orbs, just to name a few starting places. Not every skill needs to immediately give the group resources or shields or heals just because the CLASS is in a bad place. That doesn't make a good design, it just makes a bad shield.