Undeath Passive for Vampire needs removed/changed

Zastrix

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

If it's just for roleplay, why do so many people seem to be against any mechanical changes for "PvE reasons"? It must be good for something

It ain't good for anything at all but it's barely functional for RP reasons. If they nerf it even more they will make it more... I can't use profanities due to the ToS but you can quess what I'd say.

Tyrant_Tim

Jazraena wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Why would one bother with undeath in PvE? It seems like it would be completely wasted in 99% of encounters, and actively work against you when it comes to sustain unless you're using vampire abilities.

You don’t in PvE endgame, it’s useless because at 33k resistance, you don’t have survivability problems on any tank, with any class.

That being said, if people enjoy it for their roleplay, that’s something different entirely.

“If it's just for roleplay…”

That’s just it, ESO has role-play in its genre so it’s incredibly difficult to write off role-play as a variable that goes into any changes of the game.

That passive is part of their undying vampire fantasy, so until ZOS gives a better more unique alternative to fulfill it, you’re going to see the same players defend Undeath.

I love my thematically fitting RP concepts, but if you can't balance a concept properly I'd suggest it probably shouldn't be in a game that requires balance.

No argument from me. Something like “undying” tends to destroy others’ idea of role-play.

emilyhyoyeon

I have a character who stays at stage 1 (is argonian) for rp reasons and feels effectively the same as my non-vampires. I guess it becomes noticeable at the higher stages.

DrNukenstein

If you they have 6k health left (15-20%), and your execute would hit for 8k without vamp 3 or ~2k if blocked (also without vamp 3) is the problem really vamp 3? Would vamp 3 make them more more likely to have the stam to hold block and heal at low health?

MashmalloMan

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

The good news is that nerfing both undeath and DK is a popular idea at the moment. I could be convinced to back down from this position if ZOS gives sorcerer implosion passive back 💪

Had to Necro this. God bless you, I still cry at night reading the uninspiring Amplitude changes. 😂

Twohothardware

With the number of people calling for a nerf to Undeath I can't believe we're going to go another PTS cycle with no changes to Vampire.

J18696

Pvp isn't in a all time high damage meta it's in a tank/healing meta for the few posts I've seen suggest otherwise and undeath just encourages stacking high health because the more health you have the more effective undeath will be not to mention it essentially fully mitigates the extra fire dmg taken in some scenarios

Panderbander

J18696 wrote: »

Pvp isn't in a all time high damage meta it's in a tank/healing meta for the few posts I've seen suggest otherwise and undeath just encourages stacking high health because the more health you have the more effective undeath will be not to mention it essentially fully mitigates the extra fire dmg taken in some scenarios

Undeath plus health-based heals plus some classes being able to 100 to 0 you regardless of resists if you're below a certain health threshold require stacking high health and make it miserable to play as anything that doesn't dip into at least two of those things.

Twohothardware

Vampire is part of every single PvP build now and it's stronger than ever because everyone is running high health which maximizes the benefit it provides.

If every single player in Cyrodiil was playing as a Werewolf ZOS would nerf the crap out of Werewolf.

Zabagad

Don't be so impatient - they only need more data to bake

Overamera

Nerf undeath please

Amottica

Twohothardware wrote: »

Begun27 wrote: »

Literally you are going to *** every PVE build because of PVP, and if you move to stage 4 it won't matter people will still use it.
Making it a slot ability you are just gonna make it useless also, no one will give up a skill for it, neither tanks on PVE nor people in PVP.

If Vampire is necessary for tanking in PvE then that's even more reason it needs to be looked at. Vampirism should be more of a roleplay skill line instead of a necessity just for one passive.

It is not a necessity for anything in PvE. It is very beneficial and those who want to perform at their best will use everything that is very beneficial. That is why a small number of sets and class builds are ideal.

So it is not another reason to change anything. Especially for something that is not an issue to start.

huskandhunger

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Change the passive to minor protection above 50% health to major protection below 50% health.

Stay safe

Yeah a named buff solution sounds perfect

Zabagad

huskandhunger wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Change the passive to minor protection above 50% health to major protection below 50% health.

Stay safe

Yeah a named buff solution sounds perfect

Add another "If you have a vampire ability slottet" and it's perfect

Vaqual

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Change the passive to minor protection above 50% health to major protection below 50% health.

Stay safe

I feel this would devalue other minor protection sources a bit. The direction isn't bad, but doesn't sound ideal to me.

gariondavey

Why not major protection below 30 or 40 percent hp?

Panderbander

Vaqual wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Change the passive to minor protection above 50% health to major protection below 50% health.

Stay safe

I feel this would devalue other minor protection sources a bit. The direction isn't bad, but doesn't sound ideal to me.

It makes it a more meaningful choice though. Gain a bar space at the cost of sustain or keep the sustain but lose a space for the protection.

Erickson9610

Twohothardware wrote: »

Vampire is part of every single PvP build now and it's stronger than ever because everyone is running high health which maximizes the benefit it provides.

If every single player in Cyrodiil was playing as a Werewolf ZOS would nerf the crap out of Werewolf.

This may be attributed to the use of active abilities. When the use of the old Vampire Mist Form was rampant in PvE, ZOS nerfed it.

Besides, it's hard to visually tell who is a Vampire, but it's easy to tell who is a Werewolf. Vampires typically use a skin to cover the pale skin that communicates their stage, or they may wear armor or a polymorph that covers it. Werewolves, once transformed, are not subtle in the slightest.

Undeath is passively benefitted from without the need for Vampire active abilities, while Werewolves don't have any passives that can be benefitted from without using Werewolf active abilities. The use of Vampire abilities is a dead giveaway that someone is a Vampire, but they typically aren't overused in most PvP builds because non-Vampire abilities are much more powerful.

If the use (or overuse) of passives was taken into account the way that the use of active abilities was taken into account, and if Vampires were as easy to spot as Werewolves are, then I bet ZOS would pay more attention.

Zastrix

I'm okay for removing undeath if it were to be replaced with mag regen. Helps in PvP and in PvE you could actually run vampire on a DD. Keep the increased skill cost though and 0 health regen, it gives a negative thing so that it doesn't become meta.

Aranax1914

Not - everything - is - pvp.

Correct me if im wrong but isnt vampire like just straight up bad in pve anyway? Not a single pve player i know willingly goes vamp.

francesinhalover

honestly wish the whole vampire was reworked for something that is good for pve and role players and not pvp.

Zastrix

Aranax1914 wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but isnt vampire like just straight up bad in pve anyway? Not a single pve player i know willingly goes vamp.

Yes vampire is bad for PvE most of the time, only exception is skipping ads with stage 4 vampirism. I do personally use vampire in PvE but that's because I love mist form and the idea of vampires, not the *buffs* (lel) they provide. I'm 100% on board with removing undeath if something else is given which can work well in PvE, like extra mag regen.

Also that quote was taken out of context. I responded to utterly bad comments which were nerfs for PvE and PvP. I did say at the bottom of the taken quote that I didn't respond to comments which were okay. Here is another quote from the same commend:

What do you mean no effect in PvE?

The comments I responded to said:
* Remove Vampirism altogether, only make it a skin
* Change the 10% flame damage taken to 10% damage in general taken (which affects PvE)
* Increase non-player fire damage sources (i.e. PvE sources)
* Remove all outside sources of healing meaning you can't do any form of PvE content which isn't a normal dungeon

Edit/Rand: (not to you, to ESO/ZOS) and which game/world have you every heard of vampires having *less* vitality, usually it's sure they get increased flame/holy damage but they can very much so regenerate way faster. I'm not saying get free health regen but the skills which disable healing altogether are such a bad design idea especially after the nerfs you got. Like, GG, only templars in normal dungeons can run it now.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

if you remove Undeath change it to grant the vampire passive major protection and immunity to Poison and Disease status effects.

OBJnoob

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

if you remove Undeath change it to grant the vampire passive major protection and immunity to Poison and Disease status effects.

I had to think about it a bit... But I think I'd be on board with changing Undeath to just being major protection at all times. It'd really be about the same amount of mitigation I think, on average, but at least you couldn't have major protection as well.

All in all a very small nerf. I like small nerfs.

You lost me on making them immune to poison and disease status effects though. Thematically, I suppose I can see how that fits. But as far as balancing goes-- well now that little nerf just became a buff. And that's not what is needed.

Araneae6537

My vampire necro tank needs either to keep Undeath or removal of the penalty to health recovery.

EDIT: Actually, Undeath is useless in PVE. I would really like pre-Greymoor vampire abilities back. There’s really no advantage as is (although the stealth and speed are fun for solo play); it would be fun to make it work. I feel like the set Crimson Twilight far more fits the theme and abilities vampires should have than most of the skill line abilities.

Bushido2513

Araneae6537 wrote: »

My vampire necro tank needs either to keep Undeath or removal of the penalty to health recovery.

Keeping the health recovery wouldn't make sense for the theme of undead


As said above, just changing it to major protection is probably the easiest fix so that it wouldn't stack.

I can get behind the idea of an undead creature being harder to kill because it's already dead.

Also making it major protection would make fire damage mean more especially at higher stages so again that fits with the theme.

30 percent unnamed is just too much for just any old level 3 vamp to be walking around with. If anything I could see 30 only lasting for a short period like say if it has a cooldown ounce triggered.

This would allow for the undead creature to resist death but only you a point.


Just some thoughts but I think it's clear that most agree that there are other ideas worth looking into.

Twohothardware

Remove the player damage mitigation from the Undeath passive and Cyrodiil will be better with the smallest change ZOS could ever do.

Turtle_Bot

I wouldn't just straight up remove it or have player damage completely ignore it as that would make being a vampire nothing but detrimental in PvP while simultaneously buffing DK in PvP unless the additional flame damage taken is also removed and fighters guild skills unless their additional damage to undead/WW was also removed (destroying their theme).

I would make it into major protection all the times when vamp stage 3 or higher, and increase that to major + minor protection when below 30-40% health. This I feel would be a good compromise.

It brings the mitigation values more inline with other percentage mitigation values and ensures that it doesn't stack with the existing protection buffs while keeping with its current design theme where the closer to death the vampire is, the less damage it will take (but not to an absurd level).

This change would also mean that the vampire penalties (flame damage and FG 20% bonus damage) wouldn't just be a flat buff to DK and fighters guild skills while not being a buff to any other class or skill line.

Muizer

IMHO vampires should be turned into a separate faction. Werewolves as well probably. It does not make sense to have hordes of vampires fighting each other on behalf of kings and queens of mortal realms.

Twohothardware

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I wouldn't just straight up remove it or have player damage completely ignore it as that would make being a vampire nothing but detrimental in PvP while simultaneously buffing DK in PvP unless the additional flame damage taken is also removed and fighters guild skills unless their additional damage to undead/WW was also removed (destroying their theme).

I would make it into major protection all the times when vamp stage 3 or higher, and increase that to major + minor protection when below 30-40% health. This I feel would be a good compromise.

It brings the mitigation values more inline with other percentage mitigation values and ensures that it doesn't stack with the existing protection buffs while keeping with its current design theme where the closer to death the vampire is, the less damage it will take (but not to an absurd level).

This change would also mean that the vampire penalties (flame damage and FG 20% bonus damage) wouldn't just be a flat buff to DK and fighters guild skills while not being a buff to any other class or skill line.

Vampire shouldn't be a free source of damage mitigation in PvP because it forces everyone to be a vampire to be competitive. Any damage mitigation should be tied to running Vampire skills.