Undeath Passive for Vampire needs removed/changed

Twohothardware

The Undeath Passive from Vampire is part of literally every single PvP build now because of how strong it is for survivability. Major Protection was nerfed down to only 10% damage reduction, but the Undeath Passive still provides up to 30% damage reduction.

I'm usually against nerfs, but I don't like being forced to get vampire on every character to be competitive, and the current PvP meta has become far too tanky, thanks in part to every single player having this passive active. The increased fire damage taken and the increased skill cost are not enough to balance out the large damage mitigation.

Undeath needs to be changed to do something else or the damage mitigation should be based on the number of vampire skills slotted.

IncultaWolf

Yeah at this point you pretty much have to run undeath on almost any pvp build if you want to be successful. Bad balance. I think it should just require a vampire ability slotted for it to be active. Most people are using it passively and the sustain loss isn't very noticeable on some classes.

Tyrant_Tim

An overwhelming number of players you run into in PvP are Vampires and it’s because the benefit of being one outweighs any associated negatives.

Being a Vampire should be unique, not just a passive buff or access to the best escape tool outside of Sorc, Arcanist, and Nightblade…

Choosing that path for your character should result in playing a Vampire, not just being one.

Estin

How would moving it to stage 4 affect anything? From what I understand, health recovery is pretty useless in PvP, and health recovery is already low enough at stage 3 for it to be insignificant. All I see this doing is adding an extra 7% damage for DKs due to the flame damage debuff, and allowing for an easier escape for players since they can just take advantage of unnatural movement.

Twohothardware

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

How would moving it to stage 4 affect anything? From what I understand, health recovery is pretty useless in PvP, and health recovery is already low enough at stage 3 for it to be insignificant. All I see this doing is adding an extra 7% damage for DKs due to the flame damage debuff, and allowing for an easier escape for players since they can just take advantage of unnatural movement.

Stage 4 would cause you to take an extra 7% flame damage and have another 4% increase cost in skills. But that may not be enough to balance Undeath as a passive. Right now it's just not balanced at all being that everyone takes it.

Estin

Twohothardware wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

How would moving it to stage 4 affect anything? From what I understand, health recovery is pretty useless in PvP, and health recovery is already low enough at stage 3 for it to be insignificant. All I see this doing is adding an extra 7% damage for DKs due to the flame damage debuff, and allowing for an easier escape for players since they can just take advantage of unnatural movement.

Stage 4 would cause you to take an extra 7% flame damage and have another 4% increase cost in skills. But that may not be enough to balance Undeath as a passive. Right now it's just not balanced at all being that everyone takes it.

Yeah, and that 7% extra flame damage is going to buff DKs even further while putting every other class who uses vampire at a disadvantage. It will exacerbate the problem DKs already cause in PvP. The 4% increase cost would be insignificant.

I don't think undeath is the problem here. It's a good passive for survivability with the only draw back being you're forced to use it if you want to survive. Even having it on doesn't make you unkillable. I can still get instagibbed in seconds with it on. DKs and their magma armour morphs plus heal stacking is something that should actually be looked at.

Panderbander

Vampire stage cost increases and flame damage taken in no way balance the sheer amount of survivability offered by Undeath. It is incredibly frustrating to get a target down to 5-10% HP, spam executes, and they don't die. Usually, a few moments later they're reset and the fight just drags on.

I personally like the idea of tying the damage mitigation to the number of vampire abilities on your bar... Could do up to 5% mitigation per vampire ability meaning if you really want that 30% reduction you have to slot ALL vampire abilities.

WreckfulAbandon

The good news is that nerfing both undeath and DK is a popular idea at the moment. I could be convinced to back down from this position if ZOS gives sorcerer implosion passive back 💪

J18696

Honestly it needs tobe flat out nerfed not just moved its pretty much a requirement for pvp currently no matter the build health regen even without vamp is laughably bad so that's not even a downside anymore the % mitigation you get from the passive will more or less make the extra flame damage you take irrelevant

Tyrant_Tim

An easy enough bandaid solution to Undeath could be to only have it apply to bars where you have a Vampire ability slotted.

There’s only one Vampire ability that fits most builds and it’s the new Mist Form, which would usually be on a back bar, so it would be easy enough to deal with Undeath when your opponent over-extends.

Hotdog_23

Change the passive to minor protection above 50% health to major protection below 50% health.

Stay safe

Weckless

Move it to stage 2 and make it 15%

Lumenn

Panderbander wrote: »

Vampire stage cost increases and flame damage taken in no way balance the sheer amount of survivability offered by Undeath. It is incredibly frustrating to get a target down to 5-10% HP, spam executes, and they don't die. Usually, a few moments later they're reset and the fight just drags on.

I personally like the idea of tying the damage mitigation to the number of vampire abilities on your bar... Could do up to 5% mitigation per vampire ability meaning if you really want that 30% reduction you have to slot ALL vampire abilities.

Oooooh, great idea! Seconded!

NuarBlack

The truth no one wants to hear is it is straight broken for the current state of the game as it was invented during the troll king meta when it was a real tradeoff. Now it literally doesn't have a downside other than DK is meta because sustain is a joke now and health recovery is worthless.

Also vamp is literally the only non-class skill line you benefit from passives without actually having to use/slotting a skill. Being a Vamp should be more than a passive.

emilyhyoyeon

Completely agree with everyone that vampirism needs to be more than just a passive thing. IMO it shouldn't ever be meta. It was the same way back in the day pre-rework when it gave lots of regen; all my trial groups wanted people to take vampirism.

I'm liking the suggestions relating to having to slot/use vamp skills to benefit from passives like Undeath.

the1andonlyskwex

Just change Vampire's extra flame damage taken into extra damage taken of all types. It would help balance both Undeath and DKs at the same time.

Zastrix

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Just change Vampire's extra flame damage taken into extra damage taken of all types. It would help balance both Undeath and DKs at the same time.

Erm no, this is really a bad take. Have only 1 skill which can be used and a passive and then just flat out give a damage % taken from all sources? No.

ebix_

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

Zastrix

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

I'm okay if they reduce undeath if they make vampires more than just dash and undeath. Change the passive of other skills, it's be cool if we could get the stacking w/s damage without loosing possible healing etc.

Twohothardware

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

This would not change everyone needing to run Vampire to be competitive. Undeath either needs a bigger penalty to balance it out or they need to do as some others suggested with tie the damage reduction to you having vampire skills slotted.

With werewolf you use all werewolf skills. Vampire needs to be more along those lines.

Panderbander

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

It's also entirely possible that a lot of the DK overperformance in PVP is tied to Undeath as well, particularly considering that their burst heal is tied to missing health, and Undeath provides a buffer allowing them to sit at lower HP more consistently.

propertyOfUndefined

Once upon a time, the big trade-off was health recovery. Nowadays, health recovery is pretty pointless in pvp, so undeath is almost a no-brainer.

Agree that it should be addressed...

ebix_

Twohothardware wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

This would not change everyone needing to run Vampire to be competitive. Undeath either needs a bigger penalty to balance it out or they need to do as some others suggested with tie the damage reduction to you having vampire skills slotted.

With werewolf you use all werewolf skills. Vampire needs to be more along those lines.

PvP needs undeath right now because damage is at its all time high. But I agree undeath is offering too much mitigation.
However I suggest you to give it a try without undeath and you will see how fast you get nuked.

Werewolves have no other way but to use their skills but vamps are not desined that way. two different things with their own unique playstyle and you cant push them in the same balance filter. if so then I can say why should you be able to use Sword and shield and get the block mitigation passive without snb Skills, but this is how the game is desined.

Vamp has cost penalty and health recovery penalty that affect everyone but the fire damage one is a huge bonus that dk benefits the most. All I'm saying is 13% free damage is too much and its one of the reasons dk can go more defense and still be fine. also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

let me explain it in a simple way now:
if against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +13%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery
its a huge difference, its a major berserk and a half minor berserk difference.

what I'm suggesting is:
if against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +3%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery

instead of increasing overall penalty=> we can reduce a penalty that benefits one class the most and reduce the reward of undeath.

the1andonlyskwex

ebix_ wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

This would not change everyone needing to run Vampire to be competitive. Undeath either needs a bigger penalty to balance it out or they need to do as some others suggested with tie the damage reduction to you having vampire skills slotted.

With werewolf you use all werewolf skills. Vampire needs to be more along those lines.

PvP needs undeath right now because damage is at its all time high. But I agree undeath is offering too much mitigation.
However I suggest you to give it a try without undeath and you will see how fast you get nuked.

Werewolves have no other way but to use their skills but vamps are not desined that way. two different things with their own unique playstyle and you cant push them in the same balance filter. if so then I can say why should you be able to use Sword and shield and get the block mitigation passive without snb Skills, but this is how the game is desined.

Vamp has cost penalty and health recovery penalty that affect everyone but the fire damage one is a huge bonus that dk benefits the most. All I'm saying is 13% free damage is too much and its one of the reasons dk can go more defense and still be fine. also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

let me explain it in a simple way now:
if against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +13%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery
its a huge difference, its a major berserk and a half minor berserk difference.

what I'm suggesting is:
if against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +3%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery

instead of increasing overall penalty=> we can reduce a penalty that benefits one class the most and reduce the reward of undeath.

The problem with just reducing both Undeath and the flame damage taken by the same amount is that Vampire would still be essentially mandatory. After your proposed change, a Vampire still takes 17% less flame damage than a mortal at low health, and they would only take 3% more flame damage than a mortal at moderate-to-high health. At least on live the penalty has some bite against DKs, while your change would basically make Vampire have even less downside than it currently does.

Replacing extra flame damage taken with extra damage taken of all types would create a situation where Vampires would require much closer to the same amount of damage to kill as mortals, without favoring the flame damage class. There would still be a benefit to being a Vampire because Undeath would help protect against executes, but at least then the penalty would be enough to make being mortal viable in comparison. Basically, it would just make other classes as effective against Vampires as DKs already are, nothing more.

ebix_

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

This would not change everyone needing to run Vampire to be competitive. Undeath either needs a bigger penalty to balance it out or they need to do as some others suggested with tie the damage reduction to you having vampire skills slotted.

With werewolf you use all werewolf skills. Vampire needs to be more along those lines.

PvP needs undeath right now because damage is at its all time high. But I agree undeath is offering too much mitigation.
However I suggest you to give it a try without undeath and you will see how fast you get nuked.

Werewolves have no other way but to use their skills but vamps are not desined that way. two different things with their own unique playstyle and you cant push them in the same balance filter. if so then I can say why should you be able to use Sword and shield and get the block mitigation passive without snb Skills, but this is how the game is desined.

Vamp has cost penalty and health recovery penalty that affect everyone but the fire damage one is a huge bonus that dk benefits the most. All I'm saying is 13% free damage is too much and its one of the reasons dk can go more defense and still be fine. also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

let me explain it in a simple way now:
if against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +13%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery
its a huge difference, its a major berserk and a half minor berserk difference.

what I'm suggesting is:
if against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +3%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery

instead of increasing overall penalty=> we can reduce a penalty that benefits one class the most and reduce the reward of undeath.

The problem with just reducing both Undeath and the flame damage taken by the same amount is that Vampire would still be essentially mandatory. After your proposed change, a Vampire still takes 17% less flame damage than a mortal at low health, and they would only take 3% more flame damage than a mortal at moderate-to-high health. At least on live the penalty has some bite against DKs, while your change would basically make Vampire have even less downside than it currently does.

Replacing extra flame damage taken with extra damage taken of all types would create a situation where Vampires would require much closer to the same amount of damage to kill as mortals, without favoring the flame damage class. There would still be a benefit to being a Vampire because Undeath would help protect against executes, but at least then the penalty would be enough to make being mortal viable in comparison. Basically, it would just make other classes as effective against Vampires as DKs already are, nothing more.

problem with what you are saying is, for example if you have 13% damage taken instead of flame damage taken then burst classes like NB will just burst you with 2 attacks before you even reach the range of benefiting from undeath.

emilyhyoyeon

I'd rather not see vampirism lose the fire damage debuff without getting something lore-wise to make up for it. Fire/sun damage is a big part of them.

Maybe extra fire damage taken only counts from fire damage caused by non-players, and then rebalance the other numbers around that.

Zastrix

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd rather not see vampirism lose the fire damage debuff without getting something lore-wise to make up for it. Fire/sun damage is a big part of them.

Maybe extra fire damage taken only counts from fire damage caused by non-players, and then rebalance the other numbers around that.

Give back magicka regen as vampires are master of the arcane mostly.

Panderbander

ebix_ wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

This would not change everyone needing to run Vampire to be competitive. Undeath either needs a bigger penalty to balance it out or they need to do as some others suggested with tie the damage reduction to you having vampire skills slotted.

With werewolf you use all werewolf skills. Vampire needs to be more along those lines.

PvP needs undeath right now because damage is at its all time high. But I agree undeath is offering too much mitigation.
However I suggest you to give it a try without undeath and you will see how fast you get nuked.

Werewolves have no other way but to use their skills but vamps are not desined that way. two different things with their own unique playstyle and you cant push them in the same balance filter. if so then I can say why should you be able to use Sword and shield and get the block mitigation passive without snb Skills, but this is how the game is desined.

Vamp has cost penalty and health recovery penalty that affect everyone but the fire damage one is a huge bonus that dk benefits the most. All I'm saying is 13% free damage is too much and its one of the reasons dk can go more defense and still be fine. also the reason that sets like Red Mountain and Way of the Fire are getting popular.

let me explain it in a simple way now:
if against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +13%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 30% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery
its a huge difference, its a major berserk and a half minor berserk difference.

what I'm suggesting is:
if against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +3%damage taken,+8%cost,-60%Health recovery
if not against fire damage=> 20% mitigation= +8%cost,-60%Health recovery

instead of increasing overall penalty=> we can reduce a penalty that benefits one class the most and reduce the reward of undeath.

To your points:

PvP is doable without Undeath. Every werewolf out there does it while taking 25% more damage from poison with the only damage mitigation coming from one morph of the transformation, and only 10% at that. Even outside of that as a human it's still doable; I dropped Undeath a long while back on my human builds and still PvP just fine. It's just forced me to quit playing sloppy because I no longer had a crutch to save me.

One Hand and Shield skill line still requires you to be using a One Hand and Shield to benefit from its passives. Swap bars away from it and those passives go away. That isn't a fair comparison.

Finally, the argument being made here is that Undeath gives far too much benefit compared the cost of the benefit given. Reducing the cost and benefit to similar degrees will only serve to perpetuate the same problem. Further, balancing against a single class is a poor way to balance. Nerfing Undeath isn't a DK buff. DK isn't the only class capable of fire damage.

Having a passive completely negate one of the downsides of the skill line that it came from is frankly asinine.

propertyOfUndefined

I would give undeath the pale order treatment instead of what it is today. Remove all outside sources of healing, but grant a heal based on damage done. I think something like this works thematically and promotes more of a lone wolf play style for vampires, at the cost of benefitting from cross heals in group pvp.

Urzigurumash

Panderbander wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

Oh my, is dk overperforming in pvp and also undeath mitigation is too much?
Could we maybe.. reduce undeath mitigation to 20% and reduce flame damage taken to 3%. its so simple guys dont make it look so complicated.

It's also entirely possible that a lot of the DK overperformance in PVP is tied to Undeath as well, particularly considering that their burst heal is tied to missing health, and Undeath provides a buffer allowing them to sit at lower HP more consistently.

Yes to an extent, more so the unique advantage for DK is letting yourself be run down on resources as you get close to having your Ult ready. Look back at posts from DK mains before the nerf to HP regen and the buffs to DK. Many of us said the reason we kept playing DK was Battle Roar, that it gave DK a unique playstyle that was difficult to replicate on other classes. You can get somewhat there with Witchmans and Vamp Ult but then you're putting tons of your power budget into a weak imitation of DK's strongest quality. You may recall just how vital Last Stand was to DK (now being expendable on account of more sources of Major Heroism and DK's increased power in general).

As outlined in this post by @React, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621381/pvp-balance-in-u37-in-depth-balance-suggestions/p1 the simplest solution is simply to revert the scaling change to Undeath. Allow me to quote myself from this thread here:

"The old Undeath, which didn't kick in until low Health, was directly contrasted with HP Regen which helped keep you out of low Health - especially with Troll King, especially with Orgnum's.

Altogether, you lost more of your Power Budget when you combined Heavy Armor and Vampirism than you do now that HP Regen is subject to Battlespirit. I said it then and I'll say it now - HP Regen was never balanced in this game against Healing, it was balanced against Mag and Stam Regen, clearly, just look at the array of delicious Orcish foods. Not to necessarily say anything regarding Regens and Battlespirit should be changed now, but it's a point to consider when we talk about Mitigation vs Sustain in regards to Undeath.

As others have said - what would happen if HP Regen were unnerfed? We'd enjoy more HP Regen at Stage 3. Undeath would have to be changed back to low Health only to balance the two out.

Of course, better to move forwards than backwards with most things that have otherwise improved balance - but perhaps not with the Undeath scaling.

That old contrast with HP Regen is similar to really anything else that keeps you closer to Max HP - armor, blocking, healing, other percentile mitigations. There are still diminishing returns yes but all of those things were less useful when Undeath didn't kick in until Low Health, because they're investments in means specifically to not be at Low Health. I.e., you got absolutely nothing out of it most of the time, rather than a little all of the time as now. Also note Last Stand long being the only source of Major Heroism and how it combines with DK's Battle Roar to help get out of Low Health quickly - no Streak or Cloak on a DK to spend Mag on at Low Health, that goes to Dragon Blood / Frag Shield."

emilyhyoyeon

Zastrix wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'd rather not see vampirism lose the fire damage debuff without getting something lore-wise to make up for it. Fire/sun damage is a big part of them.

Maybe extra fire damage taken only counts from fire damage caused by non-players, and then rebalance the other numbers around that.

Give back magicka regen as vampires are master of the arcane mostly.

You mean give it to them in general or as a replacement for changing one of their current buffs/debuffs?

The only thing that worries me about something like magicka regen is that I don't think vampirism should be something tempting to have unless you want your character to actually play as a vampire. Something like regen is desirable, especially in PVP, not so much PVE anymore afaik.

Before the Greymoor rework, vampirism gave magicka and stamina regen and being a vampire was required (in terms of meta), especially for tanks. That was so meh.

I feel like this issue can be avoided if they tie the passives to how many skills slotted, like Mages and Fighters Guild. Like 2% mag and stam regen per skill slotted. If Undeath stays, X% damage reduction under whatever missing HP per skill slotted. Etc etc. Might cause balancing issues somewhere else though, idk.
But this way, you get vampire benefits when playing as a vampire. This should probably apply to the debuffs as well, with only flat tiny percentage debuffs at stage 1 with no skills slotted. ex. 2% fire damage taken at stage 1 with no skills slotted


I have one character who's a vampire and she stays at stage 1 for rp reasons. I want her to have some effects of being one. It was sad enough when they reversed feeding with the rework.