Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I'm curious as to which patch your NB content was from that you are referring back to for this information.

Because unless its from the past 9-15 months, it should be taken with a large grain of salt due to how much cloak and NB has changed over that time frame.

When I was not as good (years ago) I used to frequently run my NB (stamblade in particular) in cyro over the years when I wanted a break from my sorc, or DK (or they were in a bad spot) and I can tell you from experience, that thanks to the completely overtuned buffs ZOS gave NBs over the past 15 months, cloak is currently much more of a balance issue than it has ever been in the past outside of specifically when it used to negate ALL damage taken when cast.

The other issue with it on top of the class itself being really strong, is thanks to the free sustain in the game currently with food like orzorga's, CP's, popular mundus, and the free damage thanks to changes enabling the additional free sustain without losing damage or healing, it is far easier to spam cloak near indefinitely now than it ever has been in the past without giving up anything to do so.

To give an example, I did a test last patch between cloak and mist form on my magblade.
- Cloak was able to be spammed (and I mean spammed every GCD) and I was able to get between 8 and 11 casts of it in combat before I couldn't cast it anymore (not completely tapped out, but not enough mag to recast it)
- Mist form (which is nearly 25% cheaper at base) I was able to cast it 5 times (6 if I timed it perfectly by giving a couple seconds between each cast to regen a small bit of mag) before I was completely tapped (and I mean literally 0% mag with that 6th cast being a perfectly timed split second between casting it with the ramped cost and that ramping cost dropping for that cast).
If I let cloaks duration run for between 3-4 seconds instead of spamming it every GCD, I was able to sustain it nearly infinitely (practically speaking it was infinitely sustainable).
Even out of combat, mist form was only slightly more reliable for that 6th cast while cloak was sustainable indefinitely.

This is why if NB as a whole isn't going to be toned down in PvP (and by a significant amount) cloak needs a ramping cost. You need to remember, when you are cloaked going up to someone to gank/bomb them, you are extremely likely to not be in combat yet unless you have attempted to gank them already or just completely messed everything up, so you have the additional out of combat bonus recovery that is double or triple your in combat recovery values (typically sits around 4k+ recovery out of combat). Stealth is also essentially invisibility when people don't know there's a NB around since they won't have detect pots/skills up yet, so unless a NB is overstaying their welcome (this is a skill/l2p issue, especially with positional desync heavily favoring NB and stealth in general), you don't need to spam invis to get around.
FYI, in IC, you don't need to spam it either and thanks to invis you won't be in combat from NPCs so you still have the additional out of combat recoveries, even with all the NPCs around unless you mess up and run into the bosses that have the reveal radius. The NPCs are also typically spread out enough to give you breathing room when stealthed to let invis run out for a second or 2 and still not be detected, which is more than enough to remove the ramping cost to make it a non-issue even in IC.
I know this because I have done this countless times on my multiple NBs already to get around IC to do quests, grab skyshards, fish etc, even my stamblade that had an incomplete build had no trouble remaining cloaked or stealthed the entire time and if I was ever revealed, kiting through buildings was more than enough to give time for invis to be ready again (or even abuse shade for that teleport between vertical levels and through walls that is essentially a free port out without going through all the menus).

A ramping cost on cloak is not going to make a difference to those playstyles unless the players using those playstyles deliberately go out of their way to make it an issue. Especially considering the free sustain available currently and that NB has the tools now that it doesn't need to crutch on cloak for defense.

Okay so a couple of things. There's a lot here but I'm also doing a few things so I'll just drop a bit of a quicker reply. So me playing nb, been more than 15 months. I did however go look at the first gameplay footage I could find from one guy that happened to play both a stamblad and a bomber and had videos. You can see in the videos that the number of times casing cloak changes between his stamblade and bomber gameplay.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AcUb7OyEOM

That being said and I can't stress this enough, a lot of your post is just about telling me how I should play to get the same result as you. What if I don't want to run the same food choice as you in order to go for less regen and more damage? Of course this limits the number of cloaks I can do but that's my build and my choice.

I get that you're saying hey this works for me and this is how I would run it. That's all fine and good but not everyone builds the way you do or plays the way you do. It doesn't mean I respect your choices any less than my own but that we both have scenarios in which this change would be more or less favorable.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

I'm a nightblade main. I can say that 2 things need fixed for sure. That's the tooltip on Merciless, and a fix to cloak. The ramping cost would definetely work.

Ok so what type of build / playstyle do you main?

If you must know, I main the typical meta blade. Except remove night mothers gaze and put on Order's Wrath.

With the recent changes to cloak I slot cloak over Camo hunter. Yeah, its a problem in cyrodil when I average 20k bows. But, as soon as I equip a staff or bow, (for personal dopamine) Them 20k bows turn to maybe a lucky 9k crit. I have video evidence, lol.

The fact that I slotted cloak for my crit chance, is also an issue. Cause now my *Brawler* can technically gank now too. For one, I can hold Merciless from literally light attacking wolves in cyrodil. Which a potion and light attacking a wolf also gives me Incapacitating Strike. So if I'm headhunting someone. Ill DELIBERITLY go out of my way to build a stun incap and bow, and gank someone I don't like from stealth. Which most of the time THEY DO NOT LIVE.

I never played my brawler blade like this until stealth was more useful than camo hunter. Why wouldn't I use a class skill that benefits me more than camo hunter. gives me that fat crit chance on back bar so I can hit 15k Healthy Offerings too.

In my opinion, there should be ramping cost of cloak since most builds are going to slot it now do to the free crit chance. They can't get free damage/free sustain/(Technically Major resolve)/and 100% Evasion to any ability in the game. That ability alone gives way to many buffs and advantages over any other class.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

I'm a nightblade main. I can say that 2 things need fixed for sure. That's the tooltip on Merciless, and a fix to cloak. The ramping cost would definetely work.

Ok so what type of build / playstyle do you main?

If you must know, I main the typical meta blade. Except remove night mothers gaze and put on Order's Wrath.

With the recent changes to cloak I slot cloak over Camo hunter. Yeah, its a problem in cyrodil when I average 20k bows. But, as soon as I equip a staff or bow, (for personal dopamine) Them 20k bows turn to maybe a lucky 9k crit. I have video evidence, lol.

The fact that I slotted cloak for my crit chance, is also an issue. Cause now my *Brawler* can technically gank now too. For one, I can hold Merciless from literally light attacking wolves in cyrodil. Which a potion and light attacking a wolf also gives me Incapacitating Strike. So if I'm headhunting someone. Ill DELIBERITLY go out of my way to build a stun incap and bow, and gank someone I don't like from stealth. Which most of the time THEY DO NOT LIVE.

I never played my brawler blade like this until stealth was more useful than camo hunter. Why wouldn't I use a class skill that benefits me more than camo hunter. gives me that fat crit chance on back bar so I can hit 15k Healthy Offerings too.

In my opinion, there should be ramping cost of cloak since most builds are going to slot it now do to the free crit chance. They can't get free damage/free sustain/(Technically Major resolve)/and 100% Evasion to any ability in the game. That ability alone gives way to many buffs and advantages over any other class.

And that's what I was kind of getting at. Again I'm not saying nb isn't strong or cloak isn't strong, just that there are different types of nb that use cloak differently and that this should be factored into the adjustments for cloak which again really just seems like we need adjustments for nb more so than cloak.

Turtle_Bot

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Snipped to reduce reply size

Okay so a couple of things. There's a lot here but I'm also doing a few things so I'll just drop a bit of a quicker reply. So me playing nb, been more than 15 months. I did however go look at the first gameplay footage I could find from one guy that happened to play both a stamblad and a bomber and had videos. You can see in the videos that the number of times casing cloak changes between his stamblade and bomber gameplay.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AcUb7OyEOM

That being said and I can't stress this enough, a lot of your post is just about telling me how I should play to get the same result as you. What if I don't want to run the same food choice as you in order to go for less regen and more damage? Of course this limits the number of cloaks I can do but that's my build and my choice.

I get that you're saying hey this works for me and this is how I would run it. That's all fine and good but not everyone builds the way you do or plays the way you do. It doesn't mean I respect your choices any less than my own but that we both have scenarios in which this change would be more or less favorable.

Sorry if my post felt that way to you, but it was meant to show that there are easy ways to have the sustain for practically indefinite cloak without giving up damage (something that is complained about a lot by NB mains who are against adjustments to cloak).

Like we both have said though, it is the NB players choice to completely forgo their sustain for that extra little bit of damage (lets face it, max stats over sustain is not a huge damage increase with damage scaling mostly from raw damage ever since they reworked the damage formula). This is purely a choice of the player running that build to hinder themselves in that way. Just because some players choose to play that way, doesn't mean that such a strong skill/mechanic should be left unchecked especially if the devs are as intent on buffing the rest of the class kit as much overall as they have done.

The whole class needs to be taken into account when discussing balance and with how strong the rest of the NB kit has gotten (with no nerfs currently in sight), an adjustment to cloak and invisibility as a mechanic is worth talking about and bringing up ideas for. (which I have yet to hear from NB mains what they would do to bring NB back into line with the rest of the classes for PvP).

To give an example of why cloak needs talking about with the current buff only decisions surrounding NB:

What's the first thing brought up when talking about potentially buffing sorc? It's streak.

This is despite the new mist form, the freely available movement speed that is much less of a sacrifice to include in a build than it used to be and gap closers getting stronger all the time. Streak is still to this day used as a scapegoat to derail any potential discussion on reworking/fixing/buffing sorcerer to play it as a class instead of as a proc carrier.

If streak is such an issue, that it prevents a mediocre class from having buff discussions for sorcs, then cloak needs to at least be discussed before (well too late for this now, but it still requires discussing) buffing NB since invisibility (especially spammable invisibility) is as strong (if not significantly stronger depending on the circumstance) as blinks (short teleports) for PvP.

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sorry if my post felt that way to you, but it was meant to show that there are easy ways to have the sustain for practically indefinite cloak without giving up damage (something that is complained about a lot by NB mains who are against adjustments to cloak).

Like we both have said though, it is the NB players choice to completely forgo their sustain for that extra little bit of damage (lets face it, max stats over sustain is not a huge damage increase with damage scaling mostly from raw damage ever since they reworked the damage formula). This is purely a choice of the player running that build to hinder themselves in that way. Just because some players choose to play that way, doesn't mean that such a strong skill/mechanic should be left unchecked especially if the devs are as intent on buffing the rest of the class kit as much overall as they have done.

The whole class needs to be taken into account when discussing balance and with how strong the rest of the NB kit has gotten (with no nerfs currently in sight), an adjustment to cloak and invisibility as a mechanic is worth talking about and bringing up ideas for. (which I have yet to hear from NB mains what they would do to bring NB back into line with the rest of the classes for PvP).

To give an example of why cloak needs talking about with the current buff only decisions surrounding NB:

What's the first thing brought up when talking about potentially buffing sorc? It's streak.

This is despite the new mist form, the freely available movement speed that is much less of a sacrifice to include in a build than it used to be and gap closers getting stronger all the time. Streak is still to this day used as a scapegoat to derail any potential discussion on reworking/fixing/buffing sorcerer to play it as a class instead of as a proc carrier.

If streak is such an issue, that it prevents a mediocre class from having buff discussions for sorcs, then cloak needs to at least be discussed before (well too late for this now, but it still requires discussing) buffing NB since invisibility (especially spammable invisibility) is as strong (if not significantly stronger depending on the circumstance) as blinks (short teleports) for PvP.

No problem at all, I don't feel any kind of way about it but its just a fact that the current iteration of cloak allows the level of build choice that I was speaking of. Let's not get into if it is or isn't the most optimal way or even if people do it as often because that's a back and forth debate that nobody can prove. The simple fact is that a ramp cost would change people's ability to build in this way.

Now you're touching upon what I feel is the real problem that needs to be addressed, the kit as a whole. A ramp cost change to cloak is basically taking a hammer into surgery vs a scalpel. Yes you will see results but are they what's best for the game overall?

In my opinion the whole kit of nb needs to be addressed vs just making this one sided change in hopes that it will bring things in line. It's like watching people just point at the low hanging fruit rather than just saying hey this is a complicated thing that needs a complex and well thought out solution.

Like honestly right now if I presented someone who is interested in a balanced game with the following two choices

1. We look at the NB kit as a whole and carefully try to retain what makes it fun to play while getting the overall power to a more reasonable level


2. Let's just apply a cost mechanic to cloak and leave the rest for who knows when.


I think some that are looking at option 2 are either impatient, thinking ZOS wont do 1 so willing to accept 2, just really dislike cloak, asking for this change but going to ask for more changes if this one gets done, etc

I don't have anything against anyone that likes option 2 better, I just don't see it as the most well thought out approach to the issue.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I know it must be irritating to fight Templars that know when the opportune moment to purge is, but equating a 5k magicka ability that purges 5 negative effects, ones like Chilled, Burning, and Vulnerability, to an ability that denies any single target damage for the duration of the skill, in a game with the majority of skills being single target, is reaching, to say the least.

Cloak does not deny any damage type. You always take damage. If you have a DOT on you - you will take that damage. Sure, you will be invisible, but the DOT will be ticking on you. If you will stand on AOE then you gonna receive damage too. The only potential "damage negation" is that when you are invisible you can not be targeted by additional single target abilities (if the server is not laggy that is). Also, any direct damage received cancels cloak (removes it), so very often you don't even need dedicated detection stuff as AOE direct damage abilities will pull players out of invisibility.

I have also mentioned that "additional" things can not target you if you are invisible - but attacks made against you "before" you were invisible are very likely to land and if those attacks are Direct Damage - those attacks gonna pull NBs out of cloak. Even something as simple as bow LA pew-pew spam or even LA done on melee range. That is why NBs initially "spam" cloak. To force the laggy server to register their invisibility is active.

You know what I meant, don’t play willfully ignorant. You can’t target a cloaked player with any single target skill, there are only two classes with spammables that have cleave.

No point in arguing with them.

It's just people denying that the single best defensive skill in the game is fine so they don't lose their crutch.

They will never agree with what you say, cause it makes the game harder for them.

I'm a nightblade main. I can say that 2 things need fixed for sure. That's the tooltip on Merciless, and a fix to cloak. The ramping cost would definetely work.

Ok so what type of build / playstyle do you main?

If you must know, I main the typical meta blade. Except remove night mothers gaze and put on Order's Wrath.

With the recent changes to cloak I slot cloak over Camo hunter. Yeah, its a problem in cyrodil when I average 20k bows. But, as soon as I equip a staff or bow, (for personal dopamine) Them 20k bows turn to maybe a lucky 9k crit. I have video evidence, lol.

The fact that I slotted cloak for my crit chance, is also an issue. Cause now my *Brawler* can technically gank now too. For one, I can hold Merciless from literally light attacking wolves in cyrodil. Which a potion and light attacking a wolf also gives me Incapacitating Strike. So if I'm headhunting someone. Ill DELIBERITLY go out of my way to build a stun incap and bow, and gank someone I don't like from stealth. Which most of the time THEY DO NOT LIVE.

I never played my brawler blade like this until stealth was more useful than camo hunter. Why wouldn't I use a class skill that benefits me more than camo hunter. gives me that fat crit chance on back bar so I can hit 15k Healthy Offerings too.

In my opinion, there should be ramping cost of cloak since most builds are going to slot it now do to the free crit chance. They can't get free damage/free sustain/(Technically Major resolve)/and 100% Evasion to any ability in the game. That ability alone gives way to many buffs and advantages over any other class.

And that's what I was kind of getting at. Again I'm not saying nb isn't strong or cloak isn't strong, just that there are different types of nb that use cloak differently and that this should be factored into the adjustments for cloak which again really just seems like we need adjustments for nb more so than cloak.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sorry if my post felt that way to you, but it was meant to show that there are easy ways to have the sustain for practically indefinite cloak without giving up damage (something that is complained about a lot by NB mains who are against adjustments to cloak).

Like we both have said though, it is the NB players choice to completely forgo their sustain for that extra little bit of damage (lets face it, max stats over sustain is not a huge damage increase with damage scaling mostly from raw damage ever since they reworked the damage formula). This is purely a choice of the player running that build to hinder themselves in that way. Just because some players choose to play that way, doesn't mean that such a strong skill/mechanic should be left unchecked especially if the devs are as intent on buffing the rest of the class kit as much overall as they have done.

The whole class needs to be taken into account when discussing balance and with how strong the rest of the NB kit has gotten (with no nerfs currently in sight), an adjustment to cloak and invisibility as a mechanic is worth talking about and bringing up ideas for. (which I have yet to hear from NB mains what they would do to bring NB back into line with the rest of the classes for PvP).

To give an example of why cloak needs talking about with the current buff only decisions surrounding NB:

What's the first thing brought up when talking about potentially buffing sorc? It's streak.

This is despite the new mist form, the freely available movement speed that is much less of a sacrifice to include in a build than it used to be and gap closers getting stronger all the time. Streak is still to this day used as a scapegoat to derail any potential discussion on reworking/fixing/buffing sorcerer to play it as a class instead of as a proc carrier.

If streak is such an issue, that it prevents a mediocre class from having buff discussions for sorcs, then cloak needs to at least be discussed before (well too late for this now, but it still requires discussing) buffing NB since invisibility (especially spammable invisibility) is as strong (if not significantly stronger depending on the circumstance) as blinks (short teleports) for PvP.

No problem at all, I don't feel any kind of way about it but its just a fact that the current iteration of cloak allows the level of build choice that I was speaking of. Let's not get into if it is or isn't the most optimal way or even if people do it as often because that's a back and forth debate that nobody can prove. The simple fact is that a ramp cost would change people's ability to build in this way.

Now you're touching upon what I feel is the real problem that needs to be addressed, the kit as a whole. A ramp cost change to cloak is basically taking a hammer into surgery vs a scalpel. Yes you will see results but are they what's best for the game overall?

In my opinion the whole kit of nb needs to be addressed vs just making this one sided change in hopes that it will bring things in line. It's like watching people just point at the low hanging fruit rather than just saying hey this is a complicated thing that needs a complex and well thought out solution.

Like honestly right now if I presented someone who is interested in a balanced game with the following two choices

1. We look at the NB kit as a whole and carefully try to retain what makes it fun to play while getting the overall power to a more reasonable level


2. Let's just apply a cost mechanic to cloak and leave the rest for who knows when.


I think some that are looking at option 2 are either impatient, thinking ZOS wont do 1 so willing to accept 2, just really dislike cloak, asking for this change but going to ask for more changes if this one gets done, etc

I don't have anything against anyone that likes option 2 better, I just don't see it as the most well thought out approach to the issue.

A ramping cost increase is a minor change, as in changing a whole toolkit because "They are too strong" or whatever your opinion on nightblade is a major change with a little bit of Biased opinion. What ever your opinion may be, you should make a seperate Thread about it, explaining your thoughts.

As for this thread, people are exclusively talking about a ramping cost increase to cloak. That means, people are coming together for 1 specific change. Even nightblade mains, hate seeing cloak spamming nightblades. Its not fair that Nightblade can evade all damage with one skill and spam it with no penalty. When all other evasive skills in the game get a ramping cost increase.

Really you can't even compare stealth to the other Evasive tools like (roll dodge, streak, mist form, and others im forgetting to mention.) Stealth is objectively stronger than all of the above. You can benefit from out of combat passive effects with stealth. You can avoid ALL DAMAGE. You can reset almost any fight against even the best players in the game. Yeah, there is minor counterplay via detection pots and skills, but they only go so far.

Yes, I do agree that some parts of the Nightblade toolkit should be addressed, fixed, or changed. But I have other post concerning what my opinions are. I advise you to do the same if you have an issue that you want addressed.

But for this thread, lets stay on topic which is," Ramping cost increase to cloak." Thats it.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

A ramping cost increase is a minor change, as in changing a whole toolkit because "They are too strong" or whatever your opinion on nightblade is a major change with a little bit of Biased opinion. What ever your opinion may be, you should make a seperate Thread about it, explaining your thoughts.
.

You are welcome to think I'm not on topic but that's your opinion. Agree to disagree. Also threads don't exactly work like that. If I think what I'm saying is related then that's my opinion and you can have yours but I'm not going to post somewhere else because you disagree on the merit of my input on the subject. How about this. I'm free to post about the subject as I pleas and you're free to not read it or even block me if you like and I won't hold it against you.

FoJul wrote: »

As for this thread, people are exclusively talking about a ramping cost increase to cloak. That means, people are coming together for 1 specific change. Even nightblade mains, hate seeing cloak spamming nightblades. Its not fair that Nightblade can evade all damage with one skill and spam it with no penalty. When all other evasive skills in the game get a ramping cost increase.

Yeah you don't speak for every single person in this thread and what they are talking about. I'm clear proof of that.

FoJul wrote: »

Really you can't even compare stealth to the other Evasive tools like (roll dodge, streak, mist form, and others im forgetting to mention.) Stealth is objectively stronger than all of the above. You can benefit from out of combat passive effects with stealth. You can avoid ALL DAMAGE. You can reset almost any fight against even the best players in the game. Yeah, there is minor counterplay via detection pots and skills, but they only go so far.

Yes, I do agree that some parts of the Nightblade toolkit should be addressed, fixed, or changed. But I have other post concerning what my opinions are. I advise you to do the same if you have an issue that you want addressed.

But for this thread, lets stay on topic which is," Ramping cost increase to cloak." Thats it.

I'll stay on topic in my way and you stay on topic in yours I suppose. And of course if a ZOS admin agrees with you then I will accept if they choose to remove my post or tell me that I should do as you've advised. Till then this is their forum so I'll let them decide what's appropriate if that's ok with you.

You say minor counterplay but there isn't a skill or potion that says your roll dodge, mist form, etc is now broken either. I mean that to me is pretty strong counter play/denial. You call it minor but I'd ask what you'd rather have it do, deal damage to them when they are revealed, cc them as well when you pop a potion, reduce their movement speed by 70 percent?

I'm curious to you what would make them a fair and more than minor counterplay?

FoJul

I'm curious to you what would make them a fair and more than minor counterplay?



[/quote]


Just put a ramping increase cost on cloak. That's the counter play. Keeps them from solely relying on cloak to avoid damage. A crutch skill if you will.

A detect potion or blinding flare is *Minor Counterplay*, reason being, you just wasted a sustain pot just to get a nightblade out of stealth..after what 5 seconds of the nightblade roll dodge spamming he goes back into cloak spamming and poof, gone.

Blinding flare reveals them for 4 seconds and stuns them, so in 4 seconds they are going back to cloak spam. Now unless they are fighting another nightblade, there is not a class that can upfront burst in 4 seconds to kill a nightblade. THAT IS NOT FAIR.

This is just one skill we are talking about. One skill gets like 5 buffs/mechanics that can't be countered.

Yeah, you can have your opinion and voice it in here, but its not as effective as making your own thread about your specific topic about nightblade. Someone took time out of their day to post their own thread involving CLOAK. The title doesn't say *Concerns Involving Nightblade*.

You can either agree or disagree.You can give points stating why you chose what you do, but we are not leading this thread to something that it is not. At this point I think the OP arguments is very well said. I don't think I saw many people oppose the idea.

P.S. we want a ramping increase cost to Shadowy Disguise.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Just put a ramping increase cost on cloak. That's the counter play. Keeps them from solely relying on cloak to avoid damage. A crutch skill if you will.

So you'd be ok if we take all the other counters out and just have a ramping cost? Because it sounds like you want ramping cost AND counters lol. So cloak gets broken then when I use it again after a period because it got broken then I have to pay more for it?

Again just going to say it. Cloak isn't killing people but more so the more than average damage level of nb which is still an issue even without cloak but ok.

FoJul wrote: »

A detect potion or blinding flare is *Minor Counterplay*, reason being, you just wasted a sustain pot just to get a nightblade out of stealth..after what 5 seconds of the nightblade roll dodge spamming he goes back into cloak spamming and poof, gone.

Blinding flare reveals them for 4 seconds and stuns them, so in 4 seconds they are going back to cloak spam. Now unless they are fighting another nightblade, there is not a class that can upfront burst in 4 seconds to kill a nightblade. THAT IS NOT FAIR.

So I won't speak for your gameplay because I can't and can only speak for my own or videos I've found. It too me like 10 seconds to find this video of a person killing nightblades including using reveals and just plain damage which is what I myself do. Personally I usually just try to use damage first then go for a well timed reveal if they are a bit more crafty. Point is that it's not really all that much trouble to kill a nb with or without reveals if you were just a a better player than that nb in the first place and they aren't flat out trying to escape or say a tank.

Tell you what, I'll provide video evidence of the counters working and you or anyone else here provide video evidence of the counters not working so that we can all understand, sound fair?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6kwJ8wo28Y

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

A detect potion or blinding flare is *Minor Counterplay*, reason being, you just wasted a sustain pot just to get a nightblade out of stealth..after what 5 seconds of the nightblade roll dodge spamming he goes back into cloak spamming and poof, gone.

Blinding flare reveals them for 4 seconds and stuns them, so in 4 seconds they are going back to cloak spam. Now unless they are fighting another nightblade, there is not a class that can upfront burst in 4 seconds to kill a nightblade. THAT IS NOT FAIR.

@FoJul @Turtle_Bot

Yet I want to point out this video by the same person I posted previously where they break down their whole process hunting nightblades using current counters and demonstrate how well things work out when using said counters. I mean I really wouldn't take the time to post it accept that it's glaring evidence of the counters working and not just one two or three times but several times. As the person in the video states they have it down to a science at this point.

Now I'm not the best player by far but one of the reasons I've been saying what I've been saying is because for me this is a lot closer to how my own interactions with nightblades go and why I feel like current counters and cost on cloak are fair and ok.

I don't speak for anyone but myself but I mean this video looks pretty straight forward. Also I would point out that the person is in vamp stage 4 so they take it hit on regen but still manage to keep the counters up as needed.

I understand that some don't want to run these skills and I respect that but I've had just as much luck using a pot and prefer it because I can just equip as needed. Point being that all of these things seem to work rather well if employed correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpHQqsQHQ-k

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

A detect potion or blinding flare is *Minor Counterplay*, reason being, you just wasted a sustain pot just to get a nightblade out of stealth..after what 5 seconds of the nightblade roll dodge spamming he goes back into cloak spamming and poof, gone.

Blinding flare reveals them for 4 seconds and stuns them, so in 4 seconds they are going back to cloak spam. Now unless they are fighting another nightblade, there is not a class that can upfront burst in 4 seconds to kill a nightblade. THAT IS NOT FAIR.

@FoJul @Turtle_Bot

Yet I want to point out this video by the same person I posted previously where they break down their whole process hunting nightblades using current counters and demonstrate how well things work out when using said counters. I mean I really wouldn't take the time to post it accept that it's glaring evidence of the counters working and not just one two or three times but several times. As the person in the video states they have it down to a science at this point.

Now I'm not the best player by far but one of the reasons I've been saying what I've been saying is because for me this is a lot closer to how my own interactions with nightblades go and why I feel like current counters and cost on cloak are fair and ok.

I don't speak for anyone but myself but I mean this video looks pretty straight forward. Also I would point out that the person is in vamp stage 4 so they take it hit on regen but still manage to keep the counters up as needed.

I understand that some don't want to run these skills and I respect that but I've had just as much luck using a pot and prefer it because I can just equip as needed. Point being that all of these things seem to work rather well if employed correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpHQqsQHQ-k

So waste all my mag just to counter one playstyle? I’m not a nightblade hunter lol.

These players aren’t even good. No offense to them. One of his examples is spamming gap close. Another example literally sprinted all his stamina rather then using cloak…that guy had distance he could’ve escaped easier…

If I didn’t uninstall the game, I could get on see if you can counter me in a duel ”using my cloak build” . Not many people can counter even using detect pots/spamming flare/ spamming mageligh. 99% of the time when the duel ends they will say something along the lines of “All you do is spam cloak”

I already showcased the ability to stay in stealth against detection strategies when I was teaching another nightblade. If used correctly, you can be a monster.

With the help of a secret damage proc set. 9/10 I’m winning the fight unless you’re just hyper aware like @Dekrypted . —-> And even against the player I die to the most , he struggles fighting me in cloak. If I want, I not only can just reset the fight, but I can use cloak as a defense mechanic and get away from all of his delayed burst.

This is the same with zaan builds, vateshran destro builds, jbeam builds, any necro LOL, pretty much any single target burst combos …just pop a cloak block that meteor burst heal and back into the fight. It’s almost too easy…Cloak has carried stamblade for 7 years, with hybridization blades it’s even worse than ever.

Stamblade/hybrid blade has been by far the easiest classes to pvp/1vX in . Look at any tier list from any patch or dlc…cloakblades always at the top.

A ramping cost won’t delete any play styles. It won’t make any play-style to weak. What it will do is give a penalty for people who spam cloak as a crutch. Believe people are still going to spam it, but at what cost?

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

So waste all my mag just to counter one playstyle? I’m not a nightblade hunter lol.

Well you didn't say you had issue with the cost of the skills but that they had minor effect. The video shows that they basically worked every time when casted in range. So if you make sure you're in range you don't have to keep recasting, that is to say as they showed you can also just block, pre cast it once and begin your counter offensive. They was overly using it because of the purpose of hunting.

Again this isn't about should I play it, how you play it, etc. The point is the counter worked did it not?

FoJul wrote: »

These players aren’t even good. No offense to them. One of his examples is spamming gap close. Another example literally sprinted all his stamina rather then using cloak…that guy had distance he could’ve escaped easier…

This is normal in a 1vx situation as the enemy players have to be worse than you or it you're not winning. That's just how that works so sure they were worse than this person but you can extrapolate that similar can happen if you raise the skill level of the player and the opponents. Granted if you do that then it might not be as straight of a fight as it was and the player would have to account for their ability to be trickier with cloak and other skills but the point is that the counters still work.

An even easier way to say it is that the math is this. The counter will work, do you have enough burst to kill them in the seconds you get from each reveal. Honestly if I reveal and you run away that doesn't really bother me because I'll probably just leave.

Not everyone is someone you can kill in this game.

That goes for any class by the way. Even if a nightblade decides to pester me and keep resetting the fight I usually can turn that into an opportunity to run them around, build ult, prep a pot, get into a favorable position and work into a burst. Not saying it works every time but saying that a nightblade resetting the fight isn't the worst thing in the world just changes how I work the fight.

FoJul wrote: »

Not many people can counter even using detect pots/spamming flare/ spamming mageligh. 99% of the time when the duel ends they will say something along the lines of “All you do is spam cloak”

I already showcased the ability to stay in stealth against detection strategies when I was teaching another nightblade. If used correctly, you can be a monster.

With the help of a secret damage proc set. 9/10 I’m winning the fight unless you’re just hyper aware like @Dekrypted . —-> And even against the player I die to the most , he struggles fighting me in cloak. If I want, I not only can just reset the fight, but I can use cloak as a defense mechanic and get away from all of his delayed burst.

This is the same with zaan builds, vateshran destro builds, jbeam builds, any necro LOL, pretty much any single target burst combos …just pop a cloak block that meteor burst heal and back into the fight. It’s almost too easy…Cloak has carried stamblade for 7 years, with hybridization blades it’s even worse than ever.

I mean it's all well and good to talk about your experiences though as I said a video would be nice so that we can all understand what you're saying a little bit better. I mean you've had your fights, I've had mine and we can all say well it went this way and that way, etc. Or if the problem is as bad as you say it is I'm sure there's a clip you can find that shows someone struggling to fight a nightblade with counters as you've indicated?

FoJul wrote: »

Stamblade/hybrid blade has been by far the easiest classes to pvp/1vX in . Look at any tier list from any patch or dlc…cloakblades always at the top.

So I just watched the following 1vx stamblade clip at random and I've watched a few others lately as research and a common theme I find is that stamblades are doing the most work when people rarely use reveals or use them correctly. I even have a video of me going off in a bg and basically it was because nobody really used reveals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2G0qI9bAXM

@FoJul

I'm totally interested in seeing what you're talking about so do you have a video or can you find a video where people properly use counters, are at a similar skill level to the nb, and still get killed due to cloak abuse?

If I could see that I could somewhat backup your claim that the skill is too strong even when counters are used correctly.

I mean I think if it's as bad a problem as is being implied here and it warrants dev time and a nerf that examples of the issue should be easy to find right?

Alchimiste1

So . . . where are all the people that said giving cloak major crit buffs wouldn't do anything for nb ?

StaticWave

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

So . . . where are all the people that said giving cloak major crit buffs wouldn't do anything for nb ?

Lmaoooo I completely forgot about this thread.

I took a month and a half break from ESO since patch dropped. Came back and fought several brawlerblades with Cloak front bar who would Cloak away when they're low. Who would have thought this was going to happen.. Oh wait, both of us did, and we got bashed for saying the truth lmfao

Turtle_Bot

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

So . . . where are all the people that said giving cloak major crit buffs wouldn't do anything for nb ?

They're all too busy abusing playing their class now that it's far too simple to play.

And people wonder why I call for strong buffs/reworks for sorc. When you see nonsense like this done for NB without any care taken for balance at all, then that same logic should be applied to all classes, make all classes OP, at least that way all players would get to have fun with their class (similar to how original oakensoul made all classes significantly stronger and all classes could actually play, even if DK was able to abuse it the most).

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

So . . . where are all the people that said giving cloak major crit buffs wouldn't do anything for nb ?

Lmaoooo I completely forgot about this thread.

Who would have thought this was going to happen.. Oh wait, both of us did*, and we got bashed for saying the truth lmfao

Same here.

*The 3 of us (and the many others on this thread)

Bushido2513

I mean it's fairly well known that nb and dk are op at the moment. Nerfs or buffs of other classes are needed but I still don't think a ramping cost on cloak is the answer.

SandandStars

Honestly it’s conspicuously odd how out of balance pvp classes are at the moment, given the stature of eso in the gaming industry.

It’s mystifying to me.

Either this is how the dev team intends it to be, and that vision has never been explicitly communicated,

Or….?

Vaqual

You guys spend a lot of energy on regurgitating the same talking points. Tbh I don't really care whether cloak lives or dies.

Pro nerf:
-disproportionally powerful def/disengage tool, less penalized than "weaker" disengage tools
-recently received additional passive value
-counterplay has opportunity cost and can be unreliable
-synergizes with shade, drastically increases success rate of cloaking
-"no-cooldown-non-dot-breakable stealth on demand" is a unique tool that only one class has access to
-can guarantee crit on heavy hitters

Contra nerf:
-often unreliable, recasting can be forced due to lag based or unexplicable breaking, which drastically decreases value/cost ratio
-if it is successfully countered it is a severe loss (GCD/Mag) for the user, almost without redeeming value (e.g. a caught up streak still has the potential to stun and do damage, while the value of the guaranteed crit on cloak is very situational and easily wasted)
-NBs also have to play against cloak, so everyone is in the same boat in terms of opportunity cost
-passive Savagery is build dependent and potions are not flexible enough to always capitalize on it
-already kind of trashy outside small scale PvP (dueling, ganking and 1vX)
-vamp and pot cloak are not the same but often get the job done
-costs a bar slot, resources and a GCD, the same as counterplay abilities (not pots)

Bonus pro nerf:
-Sorc stuff


Summary: Still don't care about this ability

DrNukenstein

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

NB performs exceptionally well in OW and very well in dueling though.

IZZEFlameLash

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

NB performs exceptionally well in OW and very well in dueling though.

Dare I say, NB is the only class that can insta-delete tanky troll builds like no other. Saw Arcanist and Warden troll tanks, only time they died was when a NB showed up with Incap and Merciless Resolved them.

Mayrael

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

NB performs exceptionally well in OW and very well in dueling though.

Dare I say, NB is the only class that can insta-delete tanky troll builds like no other. Saw Arcanist and Warden troll tanks, only time they died was when a NB showed up with Incap and Merciless Resolved them.

NB can take out one tanky target but DK with Corrosive and Whip+Deep Breath can take down whole groups of tanky players.

StaticWave

Mayrael wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

NB performs exceptionally well in OW and very well in dueling though.

Dare I say, NB is the only class that can insta-delete tanky troll builds like no other. Saw Arcanist and Warden troll tanks, only time they died was when a NB showed up with Incap and Merciless Resolved them.

NB can take out one tanky target but DK with Corrosive and Whip+Deep Breath can take down whole groups of tanky players.

It doesn't mean NB isn't busted though. It just means DK is better than NB for bombing. Both of them are busted and need adjustments.

GooGa592

NB's need either their massive burst heal nerfed, or their massive burst damage from stealth nerfed. They also shouldn't be able to initiate a fight then cloak and continue to fight while invisible. This is so out of balance it's very attractive to players who'd like to "fight" while invisible, which is just bad game design and unfair to the rest of the player base.

Bushido2513

GooGa592 wrote: »

NB's need either their massive burst heal nerfed, or their massive burst damage from stealth nerfed. They also shouldn't be able to initiate a fight then cloak and continue to fight while invisible. This is so out of balance it's very attractive to players who'd like to "fight" while invisible, which is just bad game design and unfair to the rest of the player base.

I don't think it's an issue to fight while invisible. It's just that you probably shouldn't be able to hit like a truck, burst heal with the best of them, and turn invisible.

Usually I would think that someone that strikes from the shadows does so for the advantage and because they need to as a form of defense. In the case of NB is like having the Terminator strike from the shadows complete with an endoskeleton that can both punch through you and deflect bullets.

IZZEFlameLash

Mayrael wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

NB performs exceptionally well in OW and very well in dueling though.

Dare I say, NB is the only class that can insta-delete tanky troll builds like no other. Saw Arcanist and Warden troll tanks, only time they died was when a NB showed up with Incap and Merciless Resolved them.

NB can take out one tanky target but DK with Corrosive and Whip+Deep Breath can take down whole groups of tanky players.

Corrossive and Whip + Deep Breath isn't the group blowup setup though lol. Master's 2H makes any class being able to bomb. DK is just better at it because of AoE kit they have. But then, if we wanna say 'but DK more busted because bomb', NB is even more busted because guaranteed crit out of invisibility, vamp damage boost from it also. No wonder a lot of bombers are NBs. So... NB busted, yeah? If not, please explain the large amount of bombers playing NB when it is clearly 'suboptimal' class.

Mayrael

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

NB performs exceptionally well in OW and very well in dueling though.

Dare I say, NB is the only class that can insta-delete tanky troll builds like no other. Saw Arcanist and Warden troll tanks, only time they died was when a NB showed up with Incap and Merciless Resolved them.

NB can take out one tanky target but DK with Corrosive and Whip+Deep Breath can take down whole groups of tanky players.

Corrossive and Whip + Deep Breath isn't the group blowup setup though lol. Master's 2H makes any class being able to bomb. DK is just better at it because of AoE kit they have. But then, if we wanna say 'but DK more busted because bomb', NB is even more busted because guaranteed crit out of invisibility, vamp damage boost from it also. No wonder a lot of bombers are NBs. So... NB busted, yeah? If not, please explain the large amount of bombers playing NB when it is clearly 'suboptimal' class.

Exactly whip + deep breath isn't group blowup setup but can easily mow group of players, it's just regular setup, that allows you to play open world, 1v1s and so on while being able to kill multiple players when you wish. NB bomber is limited just to bombing, to do something else it needs to change a build.

NB bombers are also extremly squishy, while mentioned DK build isn't. You can counter NB bomber, you can't counter DK, you have to run for your life.

As you can see there are some slight diferences between builds... No wonder there is such huge amount of DK's in PvP these days.

Galeriano

Ramping cost on cloak wouldn't make sense and would be too much of a nerf. Way better solution would be to limit nightblade cloaking after he decides to attack enemy with for example debuff on cloak that disables invisibility part of the ability for X seconds after dealing direct dmg but also grants the user some defensive buff like major protection for the duration of the debuff.

Nightblades option to use invisibility on demand even if they screwed something really badly combined with repeatable burst dmg that class have is just too much considering that class recived mobility, healing , sustain, evasiveness and other means of defense comparable or even better than other classes have.

Zos claims that they don't want to give too much major/minor buffs and debuffs to sorc because of highly unique features that class have like streak but at the same time packed class with similarly unique features like cloak or shadow image with the highest amount of major/minor buffs and debuffs in the game. And they even added ability similar to streak to use for everyone yet nightblade's cloak have nothing that could come even close. The level of unfair favouritism that nb gets is just mind boggling.

Galeriano

Mayrael wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

NB performs exceptionally well in OW and very well in dueling though.

Dare I say, NB is the only class that can insta-delete tanky troll builds like no other. Saw Arcanist and Warden troll tanks, only time they died was when a NB showed up with Incap and Merciless Resolved them.

NB can take out one tanky target but DK with Corrosive and Whip+Deep Breath can take down whole groups of tanky players.

Corrossive and Whip + Deep Breath isn't the group blowup setup though lol. Master's 2H makes any class being able to bomb. DK is just better at it because of AoE kit they have. But then, if we wanna say 'but DK more busted because bomb', NB is even more busted because guaranteed crit out of invisibility, vamp damage boost from it also. No wonder a lot of bombers are NBs. So... NB busted, yeah? If not, please explain the large amount of bombers playing NB when it is clearly 'suboptimal' class.

Exactly whip + deep breath isn't group blowup setup but can easily mow group of players, it's just regular setup, that allows you to play open world, 1v1s and so on while being able to kill multiple players when you wish. NB bomber is limited just to bombing, to do something else it needs to change a build.

NB bombers are also extremly squishy, while mentioned DK build isn't. You can counter NB bomber, you can't counter DK, you have to run for your life.

As you can see there are some slight diferences between builds... No wonder there is such huge amount of DK's in PvP these days.

What does whip have to do with group bombing? Also fact that You have deep breath slotted doesn't mean You have a group bombing setup. Lots of acuity DKs that are far from being a group bombing setups runs with deep breath. There is no setup for a DK that allows You to effectively play in open world, 1v1 and be a group bomber at the same time. You can fight against groups but not as a straight bomber. Straight bomber DK that is capable to wipe whole enemy teams in short period of time is actually pretty squishy when not supported by healers.

Alchimiste1

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I haven't seen a single cloak brawler have an outlier performance in a solo BG.

Not like the dot sorcs, procanists, and corrosive DKs that have been outliers since this meta took shape.

stop the cap