RIP HA builds?

CameraBeardThePirate

EramTheLiar wrote: »

I feel like some of you are reading a completely different set of patch notes than I am, because I still don't see this nerf to HA:

Lightning Staff damage bonus "only" occurs on channeled and dot attacks. That doesn't mean it WON'T apply to AOE! It just means the AOE has to be channeled or dot. So it won't apply to Impulse, but Impulse isn't usually part of an HA build.

Tri Focus "only" works on fully charged heavy attacks. Well what ELSE do you do with lightning staves? (Staffs? Staves. Pretty sure it's staves. Whatever.)

So if you're using a fully charged heavy attack with a lightning staff, you get tri focus and a 12% damage bonus. Because it's a channel.

So what am I missing here? I'm willing to believe I'm missing something, but I don't see it. HA builds are getting the same thing they were always getting, they're just getting it... differently.

The DoT portion of the HA will no longer be AoE, only the last tick will be AoE.

What this means is that HA builds will be buffed in single target damage but will have less cleave/AoE.

Lalothen

EramTheLiar wrote: »

I feel like some of you are reading a completely different set of patch notes than I am, because I still don't see this nerf to HA:

Lightning Staff damage bonus "only" occurs on channeled and dot attacks. That doesn't mean it WON'T apply to AOE! It just means the AOE has to be channeled or dot. So it won't apply to Impulse, but Impulse isn't usually part of an HA build.

There's a lot of nuance associated with this change, that cannot simply be passed off as "well you'll get to the same DPS numbers, just differently". Let's just look at a few examples, including skills I typically use in my one- and two-bar HA builds:

(These are all hypotheticals based on my knowledge of how the skills work, so there may need to be some correction as people gather data)

Dragonknight:
Will lose 10% on FoO
Will lose 10% on the AoE DD portion of Eruption, and gain an effective 2% on the DoT.
Will lose 10% on the AoE DD portion of Fiery Breath & morphs, and gain 12% on the ST DoT applied to everyone hit by the conal.
Will gain 12% on the ST DoT applied by Searing Strike & morphs
Will lose 10% on the AoE DD of Dark Talons & morphs, whilst the ST DoT portion of Burning Talons will gain 12%
Will lose 10% on the AoE DD portion of Leap & morphs
Will gain effective 2% DoT on Standard & morphs

Necro:
Will lose 10% on Blastbones
Will lose 10% on Avid Graveyard's self-synergy, but gain effective 2% on the DoT
Will lose 10% on Detonating Siphon's AoE explosion, but gain effective 2% on the DoT portion of both morphs
Will lose 10% on Colossus (though this is being buffed in U39 so this point is moot)
Will lose 10% on Scythe

Warden
Will lose 10% on Shalks
Will gain 12% on Cutting Dive's bleed
Will gain 12% on Fetcher Infection's ST DoT (not sure how this will impact Growing Swarm's AoE DoT; probably 2% effective buff)
Will gain 2% effective on Winter's Revenge
Will gain 2% effective on Arctic Blast
Will gain 2% effective on Northern Storm

Expand this to all classes and Guild + World skill lines, and a simple passive change actually becomes rather more complex in its impact on gameplay across the board.

Then there's just the disjointed nature of the change. Lightning staff is effectively set up as the AoE DD king - especially now the Trifocus passive will only work with the final hit of the fully-charged HA, which is classified as Direct Damage - yet will buff DoTs & channels... That's 10% sliced off that AoE DD pop of the fully-charged HA in addition to all of the AoE damage being removed from the other 2 tics of the channel, by the way. THEN we get into Impulse (and morphs) & Destructive Clench, which both convert to AoE DD skills when using a lightning staff, but now will no longer receive a 10% damage buff from Lightning Trifocus, making them even weaker as AoE DD skills than they were before.... That really doesn't make much sense, does it.

I like the idea of a destruction staff passive buffing DoTs & channels, but thinking about it I would say lightning staff is the wrong choice for it, and flame staff is the logical option - especially given how burning is the DoT status effect, Fire Storm has amped up DoT, Fire Pulsar/Ring slaps Afterburn on enemies, and Fire HAs now put a DoT on an enemy.

EramTheLiar

I don't disagree with your extrapolations but to be clear in my post I was _specifically_ talking about Heavy Attacks with a Lightning Staff. For example, I did mention that Impulse would lose the AOE bonus and that extends to any other AOE that isn't a channel or a dot.

But the OP was talking about HA builds specifically, so I was responding to that specifically.

The poster before you speculated that the Trifocus bonus would only occur on the last dot because it requires a fully charged heavy attack to kick in, which I think is probably more directly relevant.

i11ionward

Braffin wrote: »

Edit: On a sidenote: The changes to merciless charge are probably a significant buff to 2H HA builds if you build for it, although some testing is necessary. That's something a lot of players (especially more casual ones) were asking for: Don't being forced to utilize lightning staves for playing a HA build.

There is a big difference between shock staff HA and 2H HA. The animation of SS HA lasts for 2.2 seconds, but you can press any skill and interrupt it for 2.0 seconds, but the damage will still be dealt maximum, in fact, the interruption does not make sense and you can just casually press LMB LMB LMB and have decent DPS. 2H has a value of 2.1 seconds for full animation, and 1,1 second for maximum damage, you can't casually press LMB LMB LMB and get DPS comparable to SS HA, with HA weawing it's possible, but it's no longer casual gameplay.
Information taken from this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

katorga

JerBearESO wrote: »

This change is sadly needed for pvp situations where the passive is being abused on live to nuke players. With the cleave being restricted to the final tick, players can dodge it. I don't love seeing a solution that hurts the PvE side of things, but as has been pointed out it may be ok in the long run? I hope it works out for y'all!

Notably, running relequen on a lightning HA build got a 12% buff so maybe consider if that in place of noble or whatever will help? Idk, someone crunch the numbers, haha

.
I've been playing since release. You have to be prepared to completely abandon builds, classes, and playstyles. It is just the way ZOS does things. Heck, I've had entire years where my main was excluded from endgame content.

When they said they were going to make a balance pass over something, be prepared for something to be completely wrecked. It is a crude way to keep constant churn in the game which generates crown store $$$ from a percentage of the player population.

Braffin

i11ionward wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Edit: On a sidenote: The changes to merciless charge are probably a significant buff to 2H HA builds if you build for it, although some testing is necessary. That's something a lot of players (especially more casual ones) were asking for: Don't being forced to utilize lightning staves for playing a HA build.

There is a big difference between shock staff HA and 2H HA. The animation of SS HA lasts for 2.2 seconds, but you can press any skill and interrupt it for 2.0 seconds, but the damage will still be dealt maximum, in fact, the interruption does not make sense and you can just casually press LMB LMB LMB and have decent DPS. 2H has a value of 2.1 seconds for full animation, and 1,1 second for maximum damage, you can't casually press LMB LMB LMB and get DPS comparable to SS HA, with HA weawing it's possible, but it's no longer casual gameplay.
Information taken from this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

Your definition of "casual gameplay" is interesting to say the least.

Besides that, we would have to define what's "decent dps" and what content we are aiming for. If this discussion is revolving about vet hm trials or even trifectas, it's not a casual discussion anymore and the requirement of a more advanced rotation is absolutely legitimate. Playing easy mode in hardmode is a contradiction in itself and shouldn't had happened in the first place. At least zos seems to be willing to correct this mistake.

Furthermore, as lightning HA is the easiest out of all HA playstyles it should of course do the least dps, compared to other variants. We aren't there yet, primarily because of the channeled nature of lightning HA and the system how buffs are applied to attacks by sets and empower. But I'm optimistic we get there eventually, as zos already showed willingness to move into this direction with U38 and U39.

Poss

Gendizer wrote: »

If this nerf is due to PvP, why should PvE players suffer from it? Let them separate PvP and PvE, as it has already been done with HA sets.

Have you seen the Vateshran and Maelstrom leaderboards recently? All sorcs.

I use a HA sorc as my main for general overland/random dungeons/WBs etc so I’m a little saddened about this change but you cannot deny that they are grotesquely overpowered. Yes, perhaps the change they’ve decided on is arguably the wrong decision, but this is definitely NOT a change because of PvP

PrincessOfThieves

Braffin wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Edit: On a sidenote: The changes to merciless charge are probably a significant buff to 2H HA builds if you build for it, although some testing is necessary. That's something a lot of players (especially more casual ones) were asking for: Don't being forced to utilize lightning staves for playing a HA build.

There is a big difference between shock staff HA and 2H HA. The animation of SS HA lasts for 2.2 seconds, but you can press any skill and interrupt it for 2.0 seconds, but the damage will still be dealt maximum, in fact, the interruption does not make sense and you can just casually press LMB LMB LMB and have decent DPS. 2H has a value of 2.1 seconds for full animation, and 1,1 second for maximum damage, you can't casually press LMB LMB LMB and get DPS comparable to SS HA, with HA weawing it's possible, but it's no longer casual gameplay.
Information taken from this thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

Your definition of "casual gameplay" is interesting to say the least.

Besides that, we would have to define what's "decent dps" and what content we are aiming for. If this discussion is revolving about vet hm trials or even trifectas, it's not a casual discussion anymore and the requirement of a more advanced rotation is absolutely legitimate. Playing easy mode in hardmode is a contradiction in itself and shouldn't had happened in the first place. At least zos seems to be willing to correct this mistake.

Furthermore, as lightning HA is the easiest out of all HA playstyles it should of course do the least dps, compared to other variants. We aren't there yet, primarily because of the channeled nature of lightning HA and the system how buffs are applied to attacks by sets and empower. But I'm optimistic we get there eventually, as zos already showed willingness to move into this direction with U38 and U39.

Exactly this.
HA builds will still be good for casual players, people with instable connection and health problems - you know, the players who actually need accessibility.
Cheesing hardmodes and trifectas has nothing to do with accessibility and I'm glad that ZOS is moving away from that.

Poss

I completely agree with that^ going into a trial with 1 tank and 11 pet oakensorcs just isn’t the way trials are supposed to be done

FrancisCrawford

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Gendizer wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

HA builds got buffed. This is not a nerf.

Have you ever played a HA build? This is the worst nerf in HA history.

I doubt that. This isn’t the first time HA was viable. The original HA builds got demolished… think they’ve gone through worse nerfs still considering this iteration of HA is still playable.

I think in a group and single target setting, this feels like a buff. Especially for sorcs if the pet active skills get buffed by the lightning staff Dot buff.

For solo, in single target, still a buff. Cleave is a huge nerf though. Something like 20K-30K (10K per tick with Tri-Focus + crit chances) damage loss through the course of the channel to enemies around your target if you are built right. Over the course of a fight, that adds up to a lot of missed AOE damage.

Basic pet attacks haven't counted as DoTs.

The scamp's special ability does.

jaws343

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Gendizer wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

HA builds got buffed. This is not a nerf.

Have you ever played a HA build? This is the worst nerf in HA history.

I doubt that. This isn’t the first time HA was viable. The original HA builds got demolished… think they’ve gone through worse nerfs still considering this iteration of HA is still playable.

I think in a group and single target setting, this feels like a buff. Especially for sorcs if the pet active skills get buffed by the lightning staff Dot buff.

For solo, in single target, still a buff. Cleave is a huge nerf though. Something like 20K-30K (10K per tick with Tri-Focus + crit chances) damage loss through the course of the channel to enemies around your target if you are built right. Over the course of a fight, that adds up to a lot of missed AOE damage.

Basic pet attacks haven't counted as DoTs.

The scamp's special ability does.

Yeah, the special ability was what I was thinking about. Should add a bit of damage there at least, and that was an ability that wasn't being buffed by lightning stave passives before.

Wolf_Eye

Lalothen wrote: »

THEN we get into Impulse (and morphs) & Destructive Clench, which both convert to AoE DD skills when using a lightning staff, but now will no longer receive a 10% damage buff from Lightning Trifocus, making them even weaker as AoE DD skills than they were before.... That really doesn't make much sense, does it.

I like the idea of a destruction staff passive buffing DoTs & channels, but thinking about it I would say lightning staff is the wrong choice for it, and flame staff is the logical option - especially given how burning is the DoT status effect, Fire Storm has amped up DoT, Fire Pulsar/Ring slaps Afterburn on enemies, and Fire HAs now put a DoT on an enemy.

Yeah I agree so much; I'm still confused by why they did Lightning=DoT and Fire=status. I'm equally confused by why they didn't change/re-organized Impulse and Clench, which seemed to be connected to the very passive they changed.

It just doesn't make sense. I wish and hope they will look into this.

Lalothen

Braffin wrote: »

Furthermore, as lightning HA is the easiest out of all HA playstyles it should of course do the least dps, compared to other variants. We aren't there yet, primarily because of the channeled nature of lightning HA and the system how buffs are applied to attacks by sets and empower. But I'm optimistic we get there eventually, as zos already showed willingness to move into this direction with U38 and U39.

I think there's case for having other HA builds be mildly more powerful than lightning HA as it would stand if U39 went through with the Trifocus AND Ancient Knowledge changes completely intact (I really hope they rethink the Ancient Knowledge change based on feedback). Heck, I'd love not to be pigeonholed into using a lightning staff all the time in PvE because HA builds are my only viable play option due to my hands.

ZOS could actually structure the 5-piece flat bonuses so they react differently to different weapons.

e.g.

Lightning & Resto get the base amount because they're both 3-hit channels.
DW would get 1.5x the base amount because it has a 2-hit HA.
Everything else would get 3x the base amount because they all have a 1-hit HA.

OR they could restructure certain sets to have a base damage bonus tied to a specific weapon type.

e.g.

Spider Cultist set 5-piece bonus is changed to add 3000 base damage to Flame Staff HAs against monsters.
Sword Singer set 5-piece bonus is changed to add 3000 base damage to 2H HAs against monsters.
etc.

Braffin

Lalothen wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Furthermore, as lightning HA is the easiest out of all HA playstyles it should of course do the least dps, compared to other variants. We aren't there yet, primarily because of the channeled nature of lightning HA and the system how buffs are applied to attacks by sets and empower. But I'm optimistic we get there eventually, as zos already showed willingness to move into this direction with U38 and U39.

I think there's case for having other HA builds be mildly more powerful than lightning HA as it would stand if U39 went through with the Trifocus AND Ancient Knowledge changes completely intact (I really hope they rethink the Ancient Knowledge change based on feedback). Heck, I'd love not to be pigeonholed into using a lightning staff all the time in PvE because HA builds are my only viable play option due to my hands.

ZOS could actually structure the 5-piece flat bonuses so they react differently to different weapons.

e.g.

Lightning & Resto get the base amount because they're both 3-hit channels.
DW would get 1.5x the base amount because it has a 2-hit HA.
Everything else would get 3x the base amount because they all have a 1-hit HA.

OR they could restructure certain sets to have a base damage bonus tied to a specific weapon type.

e.g.

Spider Cultist set 5-piece bonus is changed to add 3000 base damage to Flame Staff HAs against monsters.
Sword Singer set 5-piece bonus is changed to add 3000 base damage to 2H HAs against monsters.
etc.

Yeah, they somehow have to deal with the channeled attack before they can reliably balance HA on different weapon styles. Your solution, although it definitely has some charm, is a bit to reliant on sets tho, which can open a can of worms in the future.

I think it would be better to standardize how buffs (especially empower) are applied to HA, by only affecting the last tick regardless of weapon. Once this is done, zos could easily adjust dmg by altering empower to the desired value, while more set choices would become viable.

katorga

Poss wrote: »

Gendizer wrote: »

If this nerf is due to PvP, why should PvE players suffer from it? Let them separate PvP and PvE, as it has already been done with HA sets.

Have you seen the Vateshran and Maelstrom leaderboards recently? All sorcs.

I use a HA sorc as my main for general overland/random dungeons/WBs etc so I’m a little saddened about this change but you cannot deny that they are grotesquely overpowered. Yes, perhaps the change they’ve decided on is arguably the wrong decision, but this is definitely NOT a change because of PvP

No one wants to farm these repetitive PVE arenas more than they have to. And they don't want to go back once the stickerbook is filled. HA builds were the most efficient method for doing so and cost effective to gear out.

Heavy attack DK (back in the day with the 50% HA buff), sorc, and necro have been my goto farming classes for arenas, questlines and new overland content. I actually prefered necro for HA because of the on-demand aoe off balance and heal from scythe.

Ironically the players who preferred HA builds due to disabilities now get saddled with being forced to purchase Necrom for a 1 button Arcanist build and suffer through motion sickness and possible seizures from the animations.

thepandalore

In my testing it's a massive ~50% nerf to tri focus splash damage and a roughly 30% nerf to HA Lightning Staff AOE damage overall. It's been gimped.

PTS:

Live:

If this is the love lightning staff heavy attack users are supposed to be getting this patch, it's not needed. The Deadly Aim and Thaumaturge CPs suffice in buffing the lightning staff heavy attack's single target damage and could reasonably be buffed another 2% each if the goal is to improve the single target effectiveness of lightning staves. The advantage, and a significant use-case, of the lightning staff heavy attack build is for its use of tri focus as a source of AOE splash damage. Hamstringing that functionality diminishes the utility of every kind of lightning staff heavy attack build.

Poss

katorga wrote: »

No one wants to farm these repetitive PVE arenas more than they have to. And they don't want to go back once the stickerbook is filled. HA builds were the most efficient method for doing so and cost effective to gear out.

I’m not disagreeing with you, I also use Oakensorc for the arenas but from ZoS’ point of view, arena leaderboards are predominantly sorcs, people are using them to cheese trifectas and HMs so they were always going to nerf them eventually. I just wish they went about it differently rather than practically making lightning staves completely redundant

usmcjdking

The first step in reigning in Lightning Staff. Still not enough.

Now if they could just completely gut Storm Master and Sergeant's Mail we might actually be able to universally buff heavies into something respectable.

DropDeadGorgeous

katorga wrote: »

Ironically the players who preferred HA builds due to disabilities now get saddled with being forced to purchase Necrom for a 1 button Arcanist build and suffer through motion sickness and possible seizures from the animations.

so true

katorga

usmcjdking wrote: »

The first step in reigning in Lightning Staff. Still not enough.

Now if they could just completely gut Storm Master and Sergeant's Mail we might actually be able to universally buff heavies into something respectable.

Umm ZOS intentionally capped LA and HA damage and then spent the next patches nerfing heavy attack builds down to zero. Why on earth backtrack and start buffing them again?

I think they should remove LA and HA entirely since they cause so much toxicity around HA builds, animation cancelling and weaving.

Yajnho

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

katorga

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

Interesting point because today's HA builds don't hold a candle to what they used to be able to do. Years ago:

HA damage scaled with stats
Empower as like 80%
Off Balance had a shorter cooldown
DK's had a class buff that boosted HA by 50%

The only thing different is Oakensoul which allows the build to be 1Bar. The old builds had one HA set front, one HA set back. Undaunted Infiltrator and Unweaver iirc. Sergeants Mail did not work on Lightning heavies back then. I leveled a DK specifically to farm Maelstrom, and was getting final hits with lightning over 100K. 38K hits in Cyro with flame staff, 100% armor pen, you get the picture. That started the HA nerf train rolling.

PVE'ers today don't seem to like the fact that you don't need a 125K parse to complete content. A 90K HA build is good enough. On top of that the HA builds are less prone to user error, making them way more efficient for pve content a 2s weave, vs a split second LA weave. It makes the "elite" players superfluous.

CameraBeardThePirate

katorga wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

Interesting point because today's HA builds don't hold a candle to what they used to be able to do. Years ago:

HA damage scaled with stats
Empower as like 80%
Off Balance had a shorter cooldown
DK's had a class buff that boosted HA by 50%
They worked in PVP against players - way back when there were DK HA Gank builds on ytube

The only thing different is Oakensould which allows the build to be 1Bar. The old builds had one HA set front, one HA set back. Undaunted Infiltrator and Unweaver iirc. Sergeants Mail did not work on Lightning heavies back then.

First, HA's still scale with stats - they're just capped to a maximum effectiveness.

Empower was never above 40% when heavy attacks were uncapped. Heavy attacks were locked to a max when the Empower change happened.

80% Empower also never existed alongside DK's unique 50% buff - that buff was changed to Empower when Empower was increased to 80%.

Besides the DK inferno ganks (really PvP in general) HA builds are much stronger today than "way back when".

Also, "way back when" was literally a year ago lol. Even more recent in the case of 80% Empower (literally last patch)

Braffin

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

katorga

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

Interesting point because today's HA builds don't hold a candle to what they used to be able to do. Years ago:

HA damage scaled with stats
Empower as like 80%
Off Balance had a shorter cooldown
DK's had a class buff that boosted HA by 50%
They worked in PVP against players - way back when there were DK HA Gank builds on ytube

The only thing different is Oakensould which allows the build to be 1Bar. The old builds had one HA set front, one HA set back. Undaunted Infiltrator and Unweaver iirc. Sergeants Mail did not work on Lightning heavies back then.

First, HA's still scale with stats - they're just capped to a maximum effectiveness.

Empower was never above 40% when heavy attacks were uncapped. Heavy attacks were locked to a max when the Empower change happened.

80% Empower also never existed alongside DK's unique 50% buff - that buff was changed to Empower when Empower was increased to 80%.

Besides the DK inferno ganks (really PvP in general) HA builds are much stronger today than "way back when".

Also, "way back when" was literally a year ago lol. Even more recent in the case of 80% Empower (literally last patch)

Now I'm going to have comb through old natch potes and forum to get it right. Thanks,

You are right back then empower was 40% and off balance was 50% and Molten Armaments was 50%. Off balance had a much higher uptime. Off balance is now 70% with a 22s cooldown. iirc, Off balanced was nerfed because you could keep it up 100% of the time in raids for the exploiter perk.

Sergeants Mail did not work on Lightning heavies except for the last tick but was used on Fire heavies and dual wield heavies (where it was doubled, and since nerfed). It think at the time lightning staff ticks counted as 2 light and 1 heavy so sets that added flat damage to light AND heavy worked on all three ticks.

Maelstron staff added flat damage to light and heavy attacks, and carried over from back bar.

CP had multiple things buffing heavy attacks:

Staff Expert: 35%
Thaumaturge (DOT): 25%
Master at Arms (Direct): 25%
Elemental Expert (Shock/Fire): 15%
Exploiter: 10% against off balance
Butcher: 5% LA/HAdamage on targets under 25% health

Dark Elf has 7% increased fire damage
High Elf had 4% increased lightning or fire damage

Way back means 2016. After reading the thread, it is almost unrecognizable because so much has changed in the game.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/239403/heavy-attack-destro-staff-op/p1

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

Absolute agree. I'm disgusted by the gatekeeping attitudes I see in the eso community far too often.

FrancisCrawford

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

Braffin

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

Yeah, a lightning channel consists of 3 channeled ticks (Dot) + the last tick (direct damage).

I can't comprehend your other argument tho. You're playing content designed for 4 people with a buddy in a group of two and expect developers to build the game around that? That's no argument, but wishful thinking.

On a side note: If "sergeants mail and so on" includes the set storm master and you haven't done anything else to reach penetration cap, I'd suggest to swap this out for something like noble's duelist or even infallible aether. Otherwise you're struggling due to lack of pen.

Soarora

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

I want to jump in here and say no, Braffin is entirely correct. People are cheesing trifectas and hardmodes using oakenHA builds. These people are mostly those who can use other builds but insist they "have" to use oakenHA because it makes the content easier or support mains trying to play DPS. I have seen many groups from trials to dungeons, from vets to trifectas, in discussions, in lfgs, in clears. Just because your personal experience is that oakenHA isn't overpowered (especially because I am guessing that you don't have a tank to be doing tank mechanics), doesn't mean that it is healthy for the endgame.

That said, I think a strong nerf to the tankiness of the build would have solved the aforementioned problem. Didn't need to remove the AoE capabilities, except for dealing with imperial city player 1-shots I guess.

FrancisCrawford

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

I want to jump in here and say no, Braffin is entirely correct. People are cheesing trifectas and hardmodes using oakenHA builds. These people are mostly those who can use other builds but insist they "have" to use oakenHA because it makes the content easier or support mains trying to play DPS. I have seen many groups from trials to dungeons, from vets to trifectas, in discussions, in lfgs, in clears. Just because your personal experience is that oakenHA isn't overpowered (especially because I am guessing that you don't have a tank to be doing tank mechanics), doesn't mean that it is healthy for the endgame.

That said, I think a strong nerf to the tankiness of the build would have solved the aforementioned problem. Didn't need to remove the AoE capabilities, except for dealing with imperial city player 1-shots I guess.

He said the ONLY use for these builds was more or less as you describe, and that's nonsense.