Heavy attack resources and damage scaling a 100 millisecond breakdown all weapons

f047ys3v3n
f047ys3v3n
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After hearing ZOS cryptically mention that there would be heavy attack changes in the dragon bones ESO live of Jan 4 I decided to do some testing of the current scaling in anticipation of changes I hoped were coming. I have been rather vocal about how I think that the current damage and resource scaling as well as animation timing are basically broken. I had done some testing of just flame staff back in the morrowind days that had been in this thread of which this one is something of a continuation. Of course, the dragon bones PTS has dropped now and with no meaningful heavy attack changes. So, instead of talking about the changes that didn't happen I decided to just post on how each weapon currently scales since most folks have no idea and would certainly never guess correctly.

For this testing I tested all weapons and found only flame and frost staff work basically the same. I did all the testing on the same toon. The variety of weapons used and such meant that some weapons did a lot of damage and other did not. Ignore the absolute values. This is about scaling. some of these tests were with magic gear and level one stam weapons. Others were with my high level magic weapons that went with the gear. The testing is about how a particular weapon scales not how it compares in damage to another. The one exception to this is resource return. This does not scale with weapon / spell power or with resource pool. So far as I can tell it is only effected by champ points. Since this was all done on one toon those relative values should actually be comparable. You will note that the stam return value in the table is multiplied by 10 for the stam weapons as the charts did not work otherwise due to the low damage of level 1 stam weapons. For each weapon I'll show you the data and some comment before wrapping it all up.

Flame / Frost staff:

Flame and frost were the only two weapons to look very similar so I will just put up the flame chart here. Both weapons show a similar drop at 2.3 seconds charge time indicating the buffing of light attacks +15% with the 3.0 (Morrowind) update as well as the nerfing of heavy attacks - 15%. This was detailed in patch notes as below.

· Increased the damage of Light Attacks by 15%.
· Decreased the damage of Heavy Attacks by 15%.
· Increased the resources restored by fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 30%.

Reduced the cast time of fully-charged Flame and Frost Heavy Attacks by 12.5%.
· To compensate for this increased attack speed, the damage for Flame and Frost Heavy Attacks has been reduced by an additional 12.5% for a total of 27.5%, and resources restored has been reduced by 12.5% for a total increase of 17.5%.
There are two goals with all the changes listed above. First, we want the damage difference between Light Attack weaving and Heavy Attack weaving to be more prominent. Light Attacks should be the clear winner when you are trying to maximize damage per second, while Heavy Attacks should deal less damage per second in exchange for restoring resources.

Second, we want to speed up some of the slowest Heavy Attacks while also increasing the amount of resources all Heavy Attacks restore. This should improve the combat feel of winding up some of the slower Heavy Attacks, while also allowing all builds to restore their resources faster and with less Heavy Attacks needed.

2018116flameheavy.jpg

Of course, what can be seen plainly from the numbers is that it appears only partially charged heavy attacks were given a damage nerf and they do not return any resources in exchange for that. In contrast to that, fully charged heavies yield both resources and a great deal more damage/second than their partially charged step siblings. This does not even get into the set bonuses they also often proc.

The clear message is that every attack must either be a light or a full heavy to have any value. Any part charged heavy resulting from a fat fingering of the mouse or a block or dodge roll cancel necessary for combat reasons is basically a failed attack yielding no resources and poor damage. It should also be noted that the full charge time for a heavy attack is 1.7 seconds but the animation is 2.2. This is a result of multiple changes in attack timings and durations dating back to 1.6. Ironically, at that time, ZOS was interested in making the game feel snappier (not sure why they changed there mind,) but then as now the actual animation was not changed resulting in an ability whose actual duration is simply wildly divergent from the duration it appears to have. I had thought this was a bad state when I first brought it to light in 3.0 but it is actually much worse than I thought. I just hadn't seen the worst weapons.

Shock staff:

2018116shockheavy.jpg

I have never really liked the shock staff. This is basically because any error related to the click duration and the damn thing doesn't go off, at all. I am not sure why anyone would ever program an attack to work the way the shock staffs does but it has a gap between .23 and .5 seconds of charge time where it just doesn't do any damage at all. In the case of this literally failed attack, an animation will play showing you channeling an attack on an enemy, the enemy will appear to move in response, the enchant will proc, your ulti-charge timer will mercifully run, but no heavy or light attack damage will be done. You can chain these failed attacks back to back as long as you like if would like to appear that you are in combat without actually doing anything.

The underlying mechanics seem to be that the shock staff full heavy actually is 4 seperate attacks 3 of which count as DOT's and the last which seems to be something else all together. Since attacks of .23-.5 seconds are not light attacks they don't count as that and since they are less than .5 seconds they don't appear to be eligible for the first DOT pulse. There is no intermediate scaling at all between any pulses. It is very strange but suffice it to say, you mustn't go over .2 seconds or be less than a full heavy or you get hosed.

On the bright side, full heavy resource return seems to scale with the duration of the type of attack being used an a full heavy shock attack, at 2.1 seconds, is very close in duration to it's animation (2.2 seconds) so if your going to hold down that left key, and you need to be using a destro staff, you get the most resources back with a shock attack and it's animation is very close to the correct duration. I'm sure all the sorcs are happy?


Resto staff:

2018116restoheavy.jpg

Resto staff has some similarities to the shock staff in that it plays an animation but does no damage between .23 and .5 seconds and also that each tick of DOT is discrete. It differs in that it gets it's last tick of damage as well as it's "full heavy" resource credit at 1.9 seconds of a 2.3 second animation. Because of resto staff passives it also gives more resources. A massive 4.6k return.

Dual Wield:

2018116dualwieldheav.jpg

I might as well start the stam weapons with what everybody is actually using. It should be pretty obvious from the data one of the big reasons for that. The full heavy damage as well as the 2k resource return occur at .9 seconds of charge time on dual wield. This is particularly significant as the cooldown for abilities is 1.1 seconds and therefore, with dual wield, you can come quite close to no wasted between ability casts even with all fiddly bits of ability animations and what not considered.

Of course, you cannot do this if you are paying attention to the actual animation time of the dual wield attack as it is a massive 1.6 seconds, double the actual charge time. The stam weapons, in general, had charge times that departed even more strikingly from their animation times than the magica weapons. They also had a less dramatic spike in damage from medium to heavy than their magical brethren.


2 Handed:

20181162handedheavy.jpg

The first thing you notice on 2 handed is the massive > 40% drop in damage from light to heavy attacks. Who knows what is going on there all of this really defies logic (I mean resto and shock don't do any damage at that point) so why would there be any reason for that. Beyond that, 2 handed scales very similar to dual wield with a fully charged heavy happening fairly quickly at 1.1 seconds but the animation lingering out to almost double that at 2.1 seconds. Should 2 handed ever be inexplicably buffed to the point it has better DOTs than bow or dual wield it is fully capable of being a drop in replacement from a resource return standpoint.

Bow:

2018116bowheavy.jpg

Bow continues the general stam weapon trend of long animations for short attacks with a charge time of 1.5 seconds but an animation time of 2.4 seconds. In the case of bow this may have been intentional with the PVP advantage that being able to hold that full charge heavy used to have but that is gone now despite all the crying about it from every bow user who has not figured out that ZOS hates them and does not want them to kill anybody in PVP.

Summary:

Given the Wrobels decision that all non-cheat engine (there are a few left, though, probably only a few) users must use full heavies as their only real resource management method having these things scale in this bizarre and irrational way is a problem for the combat mechanics of the game. This is especially true for magic users who, due to mechanics, must frequently bail on their protracted duration full heavies part way through to block or doge roll. This leaves them SOL desperately trying to squeeze a full heavy in somewhere else and loosing damage from both the week half heavy attack and the missed ability casts for the next try.

The following changes should be implemented:

1) All medium attacks should return resources in proportion to how long they are with some consideration for the fact that you loose a massive amount of attack damage when going from light to medium. Perhaps the shortest medium flame attack might yield something like 500 magic return and the longest the current 3.2k.

2) You should probably actually apply the 15% heavy nerf to the actual full heavies that are returning resources as well as rescale the damage number so that it is back on the heavy line. Right now you gave it a massive, roughly 30% buff on magic weapons and 15% on stam, when you intended to nerf it.

3) Heavy attack animation should be the duration of the actual skill cast. This should be obvious. People should not have to macro their bloody heavy attacks to make them efficient. They do this though and I don't blame them one bit.

4) The shock and resto staffs not doing any damage at all from .23-.5 seconds but playing an attack animation is crazy stupid and broken. Is this to offset the resource return they are also not getting? Why don't you just forget about the whole stupid 3 or 4 pulse thing and scale these just like the frost and flame staff. They are a mess right now.

I hope this data helps some of the players who are having difficulties figuring out what is actually happening. I also hope for changes come. I continue to find the combat experience terrible as it is. I should also not that having played the clockwork city quests and tried out the new outfitter system with preview I continue to be amazed at the disparity in quality between some teams at ZOS and others. I do not see how you can make such cool worlds to explore and not have your basic heavy attacks the underlay all combat work at all. I also don't see how you can tolerate the level of 3rd party cheat engine software use you clearly have.
Edited by f047ys3v3n on January 16, 2018 9:35PM
Yes I am deeply embarrassed to still be playing this game. I know better.
  • DHale
    DHale
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    I read your post 8 times. I have no idea what you recommended. That said, never once has the devs taken any advise from the players or the forum.
    Sorcerna, proud beta sorc.
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    Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew.
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    #SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.
  • SodanTok
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    Insightful post, but makes no sense to me.
    If both 2H and bow heavy attacks are essentially same in full duration and how soon they are considered full, why when charging heavy attack continuously while queuing next skill to each one of them (so the backswing is cancelled), all skills using this way are casted 2.1 - 2.2s apart on 2H yet 2.4 - 2.5s apart on bow.

    Hard to do any proper test without any tools, but since you cant in any way cancel bow heavy attack sooner (while getting resources from it) than any skill queued during it would, I would assume such skills cancel the backswing animation that takes the space between fully charged at 1.6 and fully animated at 2.4.
    In that case, what makes heavy attacking with bow on average ~350ms slower than on 2H?
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  • Didaco
    Didaco
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    1-2) I think it would be too much, and right what the devs don't want for the game to be: Being able to apply high damage AND indirectly lower the cost for skill is against the philosophy Zos adopted some patches ago... You either go full berserk mode on the enemy or decide to take the risk and place a HA to get resources back.

    3) Agreed. On a side note, did anyone notice that it takes far more time to charge a bow HA from idle than it is from continuos HAs cast back to back? Just WHY.

    4) I don't know... Seems ok to me, it's up to you to interrupt a DoT at the right time in order to get the damage tick.
    That said, I like how heavy resto and shock are working from a gameplay perspective (they are undodgeable dot): they set the practical difference between a "theoretical spreadsheet analysis" from the actual gameplay utility, and making them work the same way as fire/frost destro would take away their unique feature.
    Edited by Didaco on January 16, 2018 2:50PM
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    DHale wrote: »
    I read your post 8 times. I have no idea what you recommended. That said, never once has the devs taken any advise from the players or the forum.

    While I think probably everybody would agree that the devs do not engage in enough community contact and look at their internal metrics (which reflect mainly what players who have no idea what they are doing do) way too much, they do, occasionally, take advice. In the case of the pre-live nerf of the new AS destro-staff, they even listened once before content went live.
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Insightful post, but makes no sense to me.
    If both 2H and bow heavy attacks are essentially same in full duration and how soon they are considered full, why when charging heavy attack continuously while queuing next skill to each one of them (so the backswing is cancelled), all skills using this way are casted 2.1 - 2.2s apart on 2H yet 2.4 - 2.5s apart on bow.

    Hard to do any proper test without any tools, but since you cant in any way cancel bow heavy attack sooner (while getting resources from it) than any skill queued during it would, I would assume such skills cancel the backswing animation that takes the space between fully charged at 1.6 and fully animated at 2.4.
    In that case, what makes heavy attacking with bow on average ~350ms slower than on 2H?

    Good catch. Somehow I put a mislabeled bow chart up under 2 handed. I have replaced this with the correct data and chart. It should look right now. Obviously I did use "some tools" to set the duration of attacks with precision such that I could collect data. As for the space between "fully charged" and the actual animation duration, On 2 handed and dual wield this looks to be mostly, though not entirely swing follow through. On some of the other weapons, bow and flame staff, it is almost all an animation that makes it look like things are still charging. I wouldn't say there is a pattern to why animation time is much longer than actual charge time. It is just broken and the reason for this is probably a lot of attack charge duration changes with no animation changes. I expect that in 1.1 these things may have actually been timed correctly.


    Didaco wrote: »
    1-2) I think it would be too much, and right what the devs don't want for the game to be: Being able to apply high damage AND indirectly lower the cost for skill is against the philosophy Zos adopted some patches ago... You either go full berserk mode on the enemy or decide to take the risk and place a HA to get resources back.

    Precisely which, damage or resources are current medium attacks, which represent virtually the entire range of possible charge times of an attack, supposed to be yielding? They do not yield either. As for full heavies, if they are supposed to yeild resources in exchange for damage why do they do 30% more damage (on flame staff) then the nearest medium? ZOS philosophy is cogent, it the actual behavior of the attacks is just different than they state that it is in such a way as to have precisely the opposite effect in all cases except that a light attack does actually do more damage and yield no resources.
    Didaco wrote: »
    3) Agreed. On a side note, did anyone notice that it takes far more time to charge a bow HA from idle than it is from continuos HAs cast back to back? Just WHY.

    I have not noticed this (I do not actually do any bow heavies on any toon that I run since I do my heavies on dual wield on the only stam I run and rarely even need those since stam + VO gear = 33% cheaper skills than magica.) For the testing the full Bow animation duration was calculated chaining casts back to back and dividing overall time by number of casts. I'm not sure how else to calculate this. So, I guess what you are saying is that in actual practice, the bow heavy attack animation would be even slower than in my test since, presumably, you are not chaining nothing but heavies for several min. As for why bow would behave this way, why are heavy attacks scaling in a broken way to start with? Why do heavy attack animations not last the correct cast duration? ZOS apparently does not think these things important.
    Didaco wrote: »
    4) I don't know... Seems ok to me, it's up to you to interrupt a DoT at the right time in order to get the damage tick.
    That said, I like how heavy resto and shock are working from a gameplay perspective (they are undodgeable dot): they set the practical difference between a "theoretical spreadsheet analysis" from the actual gameplay utility, and making them work the same way as fire/frost destro would take away their unique feature.

    I had not thought about the PVP undogeable aspect of the channeled shock and resto staves. perhaps simply giving them a damage pulse at 2.3 seconds to replace the light attack one they no longer get would be a better solution. Lets not forget though that the bigger issue with PVP and dodging is how many guys are running CE and giving themselves a dodge chance of 80% all the time. Given the high and escalating (multiple casts cost increasingly more) cost of dodge I don't think dodging would really be that much of an issue if we hadn't gotten to the point where 15 / 100 players in campaign at any given time wern't running CE.
    Yes I am deeply embarrassed to still be playing this game. I know better.
  • boombazookajd
    boombazookajd
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    can we get a tl;dr version por favor?
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  • rosendoichinoveb17_ESO
    rosendoichinoveb17_ESO
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    This thread is super informative. I also feel this is a good HA macro thread, but even though macros are prohibited by ZOS most people with even the slightest latency issues will be forced to use them to compete with other players.

    All of the suggestions that the OP gave for adjustments are perfect. This will also in my opinion hugely reduce the gap in DPS between good and hardcore DDs. I mean I have seen some of my idols doing over 55k DPS self buffed on target dummy because they have perfect abilities and HA animation canceling. Most decent DDs that do perfect skill rotations but don't have ideal animation canceling do around 40k which in my opinion is a massive gap.

    In addition to adjusting how HA work I think ZOS should also look into making sure that all insta-cast abilities animation time is adjusted to equal the ability global comedowns which should also close the gap between the best DDs and the decent ones.

    P.S it would be nice if we received feedback on this by someone form ZOS development staff.
    Edited by rosendoichinoveb17_ESO on January 16, 2018 11:07PM
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    TL;DR Version

    Flame, ice, resto staves and dual wield attack animations are around 0.5 seconds longer than the actual attack and resource return. For two-handed weapons there is a 1 second different between resource return and animation length.

    Shock staves have an animation that just about matches the actual attack and resource return.

    What this means is if you want to do good DPS you need to get a good feel for how long you need to hold down the attack button before you animation cancel into a skill.
  • SodanTok
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    Runefang wrote: »
    TL;DR Version

    Flame, ice, resto staves and dual wield attack animations are around 0.5 seconds longer than the actual attack and resource return. For two-handed weapons there is a 1 second different between resource return and animation length.

    Shock staves have an animation that just about matches the actual attack and resource return.

    What this means is if you want to do good DPS you need to get a good feel for how long you need to hold down the attack button before you animation cancel into a skill.

    I disagree with that notion. If you chain skills after heavy attack (press skill during holding heavy attack) it will perform the heavy attack up to the part where it is considered full and throw out the rest of animation. You dont need to get any 'good feel' about it, only in some rare situation in PVP where you want to heavy for resources but not to use another skill.

    All these longer than needed animations are just backswing where weapon is flying or returning to basic position. If all you do is holding heavy attack, this animation will always play. If you properly 'weave' skills between holding heavy attack, it will never play.

    The only true problem is how medium attack are bad an inconsistent.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 17, 2018 10:43AM
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  • antimawkish
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    Wow. Good work. Seeing the bit about animation vs completions graphed and explained is particularly helpful. I have noticed it is a bit wonky in practice (particularly when weaving vs just HA), but seeing how huge the difference is for 2h in particular is alarming.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    You get an insightful.

    I wanted to dig a little deeper on the lightning staff. I know you are not a fan, but unfortunately, most magic classes use one. It seems that you are describing in this post what we typically refer to as the "lighting heavy" bug or the "stuck in heavy" bug. IMO it is one of the most if not the most frustrating bug in the game. I was even watching an @Alcast video the other day, cant remember which one, where he was talking about a bug as being really annoying and then under his breath made a comment about the lighting heavy bug, totally off topic.

    So it seems based on your post that their are two things I am unaware of. First, for this to trigger, something is happening (lag or whatever) in the .23-.5 second range, and that when it does bug, that attack does no damage? Is that right? Man that is broke AF. Not only can the bug get you killed in a raid (as your movement speed is impaired), you arent even doing damage. I usually just let the thing run, but now I am going to try to cancel it.

    Edit: Also, it seems that a "medium weave" is just a bad idea all around at this point. Correct?
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 17, 2018 5:56PM
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  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    Edit: Also, it seems that a "medium weave" is just a bad idea all around at this point. Correct?

    Yes, either light or full heavy...everything else is either a waste of dmg or a waste of ressources (bc you don't get them)

    great post OP....
    not playing TESO anymore....
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    You get an insightful.

    I wanted to dig a little deeper on the lightning staff. I know you are not a fan, but unfortunately, most magic classes use one. It seems that you are describing in this post what we typically refer to as the "lighting heavy" bug or the "stuck in heavy" bug. IMO it is one of the most if not the most frustrating bug in the game. I was even watching an @Alcast video the other day, cant remember which one, where he was talking about a bug as being really annoying and then under his breath made a comment about the lighting heavy bug, totally off topic.

    So it seems based on your post that their are two things I am unaware of. First, for this to trigger, something is happening (lag or whatever) in the .23-.5 second range, and that when it does bug, that attack does no damage? Is that right? Man that is broke AF. Not only can the bug get you killed in a raid (as your movement speed is impaired), you arent even doing damage. I usually just let the thing run, but now I am going to try to cancel it.

    Edit: Also, it seems that a "medium weave" is just a bad idea all around at this point. Correct?

    Thanks,

    I think I know what you are referring to with the "stuck in heavy bug". Your doing a weapon attack and you either
    1) hold your light too long (very easy to do) or,
    2) have to bail on a heavy for whatever reason and so try to cancel it short.
    The result when you do cancel with a skill and, for lag, because you lost target on the skill that was to cancel it, or whatever reason, is that the attack dosen't actually cancel and the cast that was supposed to cancel it doesn't go off. You are instead stuck in a channeling animation appearing to sort of be tethered to whatever enemy you were attacking (ie. your camera pans around and tracks the enemy when you are trying to face somewhere else). Of course, you are also only moving at 50% speed at this point because the game still registers you as charging a heavy though you are not.

    I do think that this situation seems to be more common with shock and resto staff though it does occur occasionally for me on flame. Regarding if the eventual attack actually does damage, I don't actually know. Presumably server side thinks the attack should happen but client side does not so they are going to be in disagreement. I don't really know how this gets resolved. Often in this case I am trying desperately to cast a shield or something as the stuck animation has put me in deep ***. I often roll dodge and this seems to end it but if I am out of stamina that is a bad impulse. I have had several vMA deaths that went down just like that. I do not think that the "stuck in heavy" is related to the fact that shock and resto heavies simply do no damage from .23-.5 seconds. I do think that this stuck in heavy bug can happen at any point during the heavy though and not just in that window of no damage. I also think that shock and resto staffs were actually programed to do no damage between .23 and .5 seconds though this certainly appears as a bug to anybody with much sense. I think they guy who put them together just didn't think to clearly about the consequences of making a channeled DOT type mechanic on casts of intermittent duration and how silly it would look in particular if that intermittency landed where there would be no damage at all.

    As for a "medium weave" or any inadvertent, or forced due to mechanics, heavy attack of not "fully-charged" duration. These attacks are a huge loss of damage as they do much less than either a full-charged heavy (which did not receive the 15% damage nerf) or a light (which got a 15% buff.) All of these intermediate duration attacks are a terrible idea and some, on the shock and resto, have no damage or resource value at all (though they do still slow your movement lol.)
    Yes I am deeply embarrassed to still be playing this game. I know better.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    f047ys3v3n wrote: »
    You get an insightful.

    I wanted to dig a little deeper on the lightning staff. I know you are not a fan, but unfortunately, most magic classes use one. It seems that you are describing in this post what we typically refer to as the "lighting heavy" bug or the "stuck in heavy" bug. IMO it is one of the most if not the most frustrating bug in the game. I was even watching an @Alcast video the other day, cant remember which one, where he was talking about a bug as being really annoying and then under his breath made a comment about the lighting heavy bug, totally off topic.

    So it seems based on your post that their are two things I am unaware of. First, for this to trigger, something is happening (lag or whatever) in the .23-.5 second range, and that when it does bug, that attack does no damage? Is that right? Man that is broke AF. Not only can the bug get you killed in a raid (as your movement speed is impaired), you arent even doing damage. I usually just let the thing run, but now I am going to try to cancel it.

    Edit: Also, it seems that a "medium weave" is just a bad idea all around at this point. Correct?

    Thanks,

    I think I know what you are referring to with the "stuck in heavy bug". Your doing a weapon attack and you either
    1) hold your light too long (very easy to do) or,
    2) have to bail on a heavy for whatever reason and so try to cancel it short.
    The result when you do cancel with a skill and, for lag, because you lost target on the skill that was to cancel it, or whatever reason, is that the attack dosen't actually cancel and the cast that was supposed to cancel it doesn't go off. You are instead stuck in a channeling animation appearing to sort of be tethered to whatever enemy you were attacking (ie. your camera pans around and tracks the enemy when you are trying to face somewhere else). Of course, you are also only moving at 50% speed at this point because the game still registers you as charging a heavy though you are not.

    I do think that this situation seems to be more common with shock and resto staff though it does occur occasionally for me on flame. Regarding if the eventual attack actually does damage, I don't actually know. Presumably server side thinks the attack should happen but client side does not so they are going to be in disagreement. I don't really know how this gets resolved. Often in this case I am trying desperately to cast a shield or something as the stuck animation has put me in deep ***. I often roll dodge and this seems to end it but if I am out of stamina that is a bad impulse. I have had several vMA deaths that went down just like that. I do not think that the "stuck in heavy" is related to the fact that shock and resto heavies simply do no damage from .23-.5 seconds. I do think that this stuck in heavy bug can happen at any point during the heavy though and not just in that window of no damage. I also think that shock and resto staffs were actually programed to do no damage between .23 and .5 seconds though this certainly appears as a bug to anybody with much sense. I think they guy who put them together just didn't think to clearly about the consequences of making a channeled DOT type mechanic on casts of intermittent duration and how silly it would look in particular if that intermittency landed where there would be no damage at all.

    As for a "medium weave" or any inadvertent, or forced due to mechanics, heavy attack of not "fully-charged" duration. These attacks are a huge loss of damage as they do much less than either a full-charged heavy (which did not receive the 15% damage nerf) or a light (which got a 15% buff.) All of these intermediate duration attacks are a terrible idea and some, on the shock and resto, have no damage or resource value at all (though they do still slow your movement lol.)

    Thanks for taking the time to answer that. I guess it seems they arent related. As prevalent as that bug is, I am shocked that it still exists. I thought you might have identified the cause, but I guess I was mistaken. Really wish they would fix it. It is basically a death sentence in VAS+2 if it happens during kite phase.
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,100ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Redguard, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR37- Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Altmer (AD)
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Breton, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Redguard, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer

    vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    SodanTok wrote: »

    I disagree with that notion. If you chain skills after heavy attack (press skill during holding heavy attack) it will perform the heavy attack up to the part where it is considered full and throw out the rest of animation. You dont need to get any 'good feel' about it, only in some rare situation in PVP where you want to heavy for resources but not to use another skill.

    All these longer than needed animations are just backswing where weapon is flying or returning to basic position. If all you do is holding heavy attack, this animation will always play. If you properly 'weave' skills between holding heavy attack, it will never play.

    The only true problem is how medium attack are bad an inconsistent.

    So, I decided to test this since it is a different method than I have used for animation canceling in the past. It did, indeed result in a full heavy and an ability being utilized. In fact, by just holding left interminably any number of abilities could be strung together and always with full resource return credit.

    However, when I timed out the duration on each, the flame staff read 2.4 seconds per heavy + ability and dual wield read 1.6 seconds. These are by no means fast. In fact, it is basically the same amount of time as just holding the button down without casting any skills.

    My next thought was what happens if I do a fully charged heavy of exactly correct duration followed in short order by an ability instead of another full heavy attack in order to see just how close I can get them together. Interestingly, this resulted in only the first heavy counting as fully charged and returning resources. Consecutive attacks counted as medium. This makes me think there is some sort of cooldown on how quickly you can qualify for a full heavy after you got the last one that is longer than the time it actually takes to charge one.

    I am going to mess around with longer looped combinations too see how quick you can, for instance, do a full heavy weave and then a light weave.

    Suffice it to say that the hold the left button down and cast an ability while down is certainly more efficient than waiting for the animation to play but does not actually appear to be a maximizing strategy. I will try to look more into what a maximizing strategy would look like.
    Yes I am deeply embarrassed to still be playing this game. I know better.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    f047ys3v3n wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »

    I disagree with that notion. If you chain skills after heavy attack (press skill during holding heavy attack) it will perform the heavy attack up to the part where it is considered full and throw out the rest of animation. You dont need to get any 'good feel' about it, only in some rare situation in PVP where you want to heavy for resources but not to use another skill.

    All these longer than needed animations are just backswing where weapon is flying or returning to basic position. If all you do is holding heavy attack, this animation will always play. If you properly 'weave' skills between holding heavy attack, it will never play.

    The only true problem is how medium attack are bad an inconsistent.

    So, I decided to test this since it is a different method than I have used for animation canceling in the past. It did, indeed result in a full heavy and an ability being utilized. In fact, by just holding left interminably any number of abilities could be strung together and always with full resource return credit.

    However, when I timed out the duration on each, the flame staff read 2.4 seconds per heavy + ability and dual wield read 1.6 seconds. These are by no means fast. In fact, it is basically the same amount of time as just holding the button down without casting any skills.

    My next thought was what happens if I do a fully charged heavy of exactly correct duration followed in short order by an ability instead of another full heavy attack in order to see just how close I can get them together. Interestingly, this resulted in only the first heavy counting as fully charged and returning resources. Consecutive attacks counted as medium. This makes me think there is some sort of cooldown on how quickly you can qualify for a full heavy after you got the last one that is longer than the time it actually takes to charge one.

    I am going to mess around with longer looped combinations too see how quick you can, for instance, do a full heavy weave and then a light weave.

    Suffice it to say that the hold the left button down and cast an ability while down is certainly more efficient than waiting for the animation to play but does not actually appear to be a maximizing strategy. I will try to look more into what a maximizing strategy would look like.

    There is cooldown and I think ZoS was interested in reducing it in november combat update. Thats why holding heavy attacks or anim canceling them results in the exact same number of them, except in the case of cancelling you can actually put something between them (where the discared animation or backswing is)

    They wanted to do 2 things back then and decided not to:

    Shorten the Heavy Attack cooldown to approximately 300ms from 700ms
    Shorten the global cast speed penalty of Heavy Attacks to 50% from 75%
    Edited by SodanTok on January 17, 2018 11:40PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    I have continued to do testing..... Man has it been a mess.

    What I do know is that the "heavy attack cool-down" is not actually a cool-down in that it can be refreshed by something other than a full heavy attack. You can, for instance, do a .9 second full-heavy DW attack (it will register full heavy and return resources) followed imediatly by a skill cast (man is that tight). If you loop this (endless .9 second DW followed by skill with a little buffer so that the skill to skill time is not less than the 1.1 second cooldown on this) you will actually only get credit for a full heavy on the very first one. All the others will count only partial. So, something other than a credited fully charged heavy is refreshing the full heavy cooldown.

    Similarly, loops with a full heavy and light attacks also do not continue to count as a full heavy.

    What I think might be going on is some weirdness relating to the shortening of the heavy / light attack cool-down that happened in 1.6. In 1.6 they wanted to make you able to do a bunch of light attacks quickly like a machine gun. Previously, you would do a light attack and you could pound the key a while before the next light attack would fire. There was a pretty long cooldown in there. My thought is that there might still be some kind of remnant of this under the surface. Say you fire your full heavy and immediately start another. It may be that it really dosen't start charging right away and therefore it will not look fully charged at .9 seconds. It may be that it dosen't start charging until, say, 1.6 seconds. This seems simple, you can only do 1 full heavy every 1.6 seconds and you should use the auto-que, keep on left key method. It is not that simple though because many builds do not do many full-heavies in a row. Many have mostly light weaves and these also have some sort of cooldown reset effect.

    In short, I'm really not sure exactly what is going on when it comes to chaining lots of these things in a row with both light and full heavy attacks and skills interspersed. The duration of a fully charged heavy seems some what variable depending on how it is embedded in a rotation. Of course, any medium you hit, and it seem to be quite easy to slip into them from both sides, is just plain po-po so you really don't want to do that. I can see why many have gravitated to the all auto que, never let the left key up, all DOT no spamables rotation meta using a mag sorc or stam DK.
    Edited by f047ys3v3n on January 19, 2018 10:18PM
    Yes I am deeply embarrassed to still be playing this game. I know better.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Quite an interesting read.
    Beta tester since February 2014, playing ESO-TU since October 2015
    vMA | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+0
    EU PC CP 1000+
    Member of:
    Pact Veteran Trade
    The Alchemist's Emporium
    Handelsgilde
    Lodge of Sorceresses


    Characters:
    Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 34 | Master Crafter: all traits, styles & recipes
    Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 18 |
    Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 18 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 18 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 5 |

    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 4 |
    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 3 |
    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 3 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 3 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 3 |
    Milariel | 50 Wolld Elf Warden | AD AR 3 |
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