RIP HA builds?

FrancisCrawford

Braffin wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

Yeah, a lightning channel consists of 3 channeled ticks (Dot) + the last tick (direct damage).

I can't comprehend your other argument tho. You're playing content designed for 4 people with a buddy in a group of two and expect developers to build the game around that? That's no argument, but wishful thinking.

On a side note: If "sergeants mail and so on" includes the set storm master and you haven't done anything else to reach penetration cap, I'd suggest to swap this out for something like noble's duelist or even infallible aether. Otherwise you're struggling due to lack of pen.

I've never used Storm Master.

FrancisCrawford

Braffin wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

Yeah, a lightning channel consists of 3 channeled ticks (Dot) + the last tick (direct damage).

I can't comprehend your other argument tho. You're playing content designed for 4 people with a buddy in a group of two and expect developers to build the game around that? That's no argument, but wishful thinking.

On a side note: If "sergeants mail and so on" includes the set storm master and you haven't done anything else to reach penetration cap, I'd suggest to swap this out for something like noble's duelist or even infallible aether. Otherwise you're struggling due to lack of pen.

And yes -- I think duoing a dungeon in normal mode is a reasonable aspiration for people who've been playing for the entire lifeof the game.

Braffin

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

I want to jump in here and say no, Braffin is entirely correct. People are cheesing trifectas and hardmodes using oakenHA builds. These people are mostly those who can use other builds but insist they "have" to use oakenHA because it makes the content easier or support mains trying to play DPS. I have seen many groups from trials to dungeons, from vets to trifectas, in discussions, in lfgs, in clears. Just because your personal experience is that oakenHA isn't overpowered (especially because I am guessing that you don't have a tank to be doing tank mechanics), doesn't mean that it is healthy for the endgame.

That said, I think a strong nerf to the tankiness of the build would have solved the aforementioned problem. Didn't need to remove the AoE capabilities, except for dealing with imperial city player 1-shots I guess.

He said the ONLY use for these builds was more or less as you describe, and that's nonsense.

"Primarily" was the term I used, that's something different than "only"

I also wasn't speaking about endgame solely, but "higher difficulty modes" which included vet dlc dungeons to some extent.

The discussion is mainly revolving about endgame tho, as one of the first questions in this thread was "Is it possible to do trial hm or trifecta post-nerf"?

Braffin

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

Yeah, a lightning channel consists of 3 channeled ticks (Dot) + the last tick (direct damage).

I can't comprehend your other argument tho. You're playing content designed for 4 people with a buddy in a group of two and expect developers to build the game around that? That's no argument, but wishful thinking.

On a side note: If "sergeants mail and so on" includes the set storm master and you haven't done anything else to reach penetration cap, I'd suggest to swap this out for something like noble's duelist or even infallible aether. Otherwise you're struggling due to lack of pen.

And yes -- I think duoing a dungeon in normal mode is a reasonable aspiration for people who've been playing for the entire lifeof the game.

Nothing wrong with that. But honestly, do you really believe your struggles with reaching that goal is caused by some tweaked numbers?

Don't get this wrong, but the primarily affected build would melt anything in normal mode within seconds, so there is enough space for you to improve your build to pass the upcoming changes unharmed.

And I'm sure a lot of people are willing to help with that.

adamsmith42

HackTh[s]eMinotaur wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I don't think so actually. This may be a buff. For single target at least.

Definitely an AOE nerf. But the actual heavy attack damage to single target should go up.

+12% damage to the attack from the Ancient Knowledge change. This will certainly hurt any AOE skills damage on the build but buff the heavy attack channel itself.

Losing the splash damage from Tri Focus during the channel is definitely a hit to aoe damage though. May be a hit to healing as well for Sorcs using crit surge. But, I think the single target lightning heavy attack damage is going to be better than it was pre-Necrom since Ancient Knowledge never applied to the actual heavy attack channel as far as I know.

[/s]
The problem is that, last I checked, the final tick of a lightning staff heavy does not count as channeled damage, it counts as AOE. They should really fix it so the entire channel is channeled damage. This would also make sets like Deadly Strike more useful on lightning heavy builds.

The final tick is single target direct damage

Yajnho

Braffin wrote: »

I think it would be better to standardize how buffs (especially empower) are applied to HA, by only affecting the last tick regardless of weapon. Once this is done, zos could easily adjust dmg by altering empower to the desired value, while more set choices would become viable.

This is a much more reasonable solution than completely changing the way each staff functions.

Yajnho

Trying to edit on a phone…

PrincessOfThieves

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

I want to jump in here and say no, Braffin is entirely correct. People are cheesing trifectas and hardmodes using oakenHA builds. These people are mostly those who can use other builds but insist they "have" to use oakenHA because it makes the content easier or support mains trying to play DPS. I have seen many groups from trials to dungeons, from vets to trifectas, in discussions, in lfgs, in clears. Just because your personal experience is that oakenHA isn't overpowered (especially because I am guessing that you don't have a tank to be doing tank mechanics), doesn't mean that it is healthy for the endgame.

That said, I think a strong nerf to the tankiness of the build would have solved the aforementioned problem. Didn't need to remove the AoE capabilities, except for dealing with imperial city player 1-shots I guess.

He said the ONLY use for these builds was more or less as you describe, and that's nonsense.

That's the area where the build is overperforming.
And these nerfs won't affect casual players ability to participate in casual content. Yes, with aoe nerf you will probably need some aoe skills and proper positioning for trash pulls in vet trials... Just like everyone else. Considering that many vet trial players have separate gear and skill setups for trash and bosses, swapping in and out some aoe skills isn't too much to ask.

Yajnho

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

I think you are grossly underestimating the number of players that will stop running normal trials and vet dungeons as a result of this change. Xynodes Easy Sorc build has been immensely popular for a long time and this is a serious blow to that build. And it’s not the only popular heavy attack build out there.

I also think skipping mechanics is far more about high single Target damage on a boss than cleave damage. It’s the bosses health bar that determines timing of mechanics in almost every scenario in the game. Not very long ago 90k was considered very high damage. A quick perusal of you tube shows a large number of parses well over 100k and they are not heavy attack lightning staff builds. The power creep of single Target dps has been very real. So it’s really the sweaty single target dps guys that are skipping the mechanics, not the heavy attack builds.

Ultimately the change is so heavy handed. If it’s really a huge problem just adjust proc sets to only work on fully charged heavies, Or adjust the splash damage of the lightning staff to 50%. Don’t change the entire function of a weapon that so many people have built around, and provides an accessible play style to those without amazing twitch skills.

jaws343

Yajnho wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

I think you are grossly underestimating the number of players that will stop running normal trials and vet dungeons as a result of this change. Xynodes Easy Sorc build has been immensely popular for a long time and this is a serious blow to that build. And it’s not the only popular heavy attack build out there.

I also think skipping mechanics is far more about high single Target damage on a boss than cleave damage. It’s the bosses health bar that determines timing of mechanics in almost every scenario in the game. Not very long ago 90k was considered very high damage. A quick perusal of you tube shows a large number of parses well over 100k and they are not heavy attack lightning staff builds. The power creep of single Target dps has been very real. So it’s really the sweaty single target dps guys that are skipping the mechanics, not the heavy attack builds.

Ultimately the change is so heavy handed. If it’s really a huge problem just adjust proc sets to only work on fully charged heavies, Or adjust the splash damage of the lightning staff to 50%. Don’t change the entire function of a weapon that so many people have built around, and provides an accessible play style to those without amazing twitch skills.

I mean, great news then, lightning attack single target damage, and overall single target damage for 1 bar heavy attack sorcs will actually increase with these changes.

jaws343

Yajnho wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

Ultimately the change is so heavy handed. If it’s really a huge problem just adjust proc sets to only work on fully charged heavies, Or adjust the splash damage of the lightning staff to 50%. Don’t change the entire function of a weapon that so many people have built around, and provides an accessible play style to those without amazing twitch skills.

Also, wanted to comment on this part directly. And also clarify, I do think the approach to Tri-Focus was heavy handed.

But, essentially, aren't they actually doing exactly what you recommended, reducing splash damage by a percentage. Probably pretty close to 50% since the last tick does around 3 times more damage than the channeled ticks. I generally see 10K ticks during the channel and around 30K for the last hit. And it is like two or three ticks during the channel, so like 50-60K damage for Tri-Focus, now being reduced to around 30K.

Braffin

Yajnho wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

I think you are grossly underestimating the number of players that will stop running normal trials and vet dungeons as a result of this change. Xynodes Easy Sorc build has been immensely popular for a long time and this is a serious blow to that build. And it’s not the only popular heavy attack build out there.

We will see about that, won't we? I run quite a lot of said content with various casual players (besides being a "sweaty guy" for myself) and very rarely see them using this builds. Most try to play something they find fun or incorporate skills with animations they like. You should also consider that for said content no proper LA weaving is necessary, so they have no need to use HA builds.

Yajnho wrote: »

I also think skipping mechanics is far more about high single Target damage on a boss than cleave damage. It’s the bosses health bar that determines timing of mechanics in almost every scenario in the game. Not very long ago 90k was considered very high damage. A quick perusal of you tube shows a large number of parses well over 100k and they are not heavy attack lightning staff builds. The power creep of single Target dps has been very real. So it’s really the sweaty single target dps guys that are skipping the mechanics, not the heavy attack builds.

Sure, high single target enables you to skip some mechanics, but for the tradeoff of being forced to achieve "combat mastery" (Zos invented this term, not me.), which needs quite some training. Additionally it's all but easy to achieve this high single target in actual combat: You have to play melee, maintain near to perfect uptimes on buffs and DoTs, hold formation while sustaining your build and following mechanics. If you make a mistake you're usually dead. Let's call it a high rsik/high reward playstyle. Master sergeant brokenbrrrrzzzz on the other side may ignore most mechanics due to resistances and HP, while dealing full AoE dmg over a range of 30m using a ressource-regenerating "spammable". That's not really compareable, isn't it? So it's absolutely justified to lower the dmg of this build.

Believe me or not: To skip mechanics with a 130k LA weaving build you have to know said mechanics very well, otherwise you're dead. That's not the case with lightning HA.

Yajnho wrote: »

Ultimately the change is so heavy handed. If it’s really a huge problem just adjust proc sets to only work on fully charged heavies, Or adjust the splash damage of the lightning staff to 50%. Don’t change the entire function of a weapon that so many people have built around, and provides an accessible play style to those without amazing twitch skills.

Now that's something I can agree with, as I personally also would've targeted the channeled nature of lightning staves, so only a FHA gets buffed. Would make the balancing of HA builds much easier. Especially the difference between lightning HA and all other variants of HA playstyles is still too high and can't be adressed as long as lightning staves are buffed 4 times, when other weapons are buffed once.

Yajnho

jaws343 wrote: »

But, essentially, aren't they actually doing exactly what you recommended, reducing splash damage by a percentage. Probably pretty close to 50% since the last tick does around 3 times more damage than the channeled ticks. I generally see 10K ticks during the channel and around 30K for the last hit. And it is like two or three ticks during the channel, so like 50-60K damage for Tri-Focus, now being reduced to around 30K.

Not really. If the add you are shooting dies because of your wall or more likely because you are shooting the same guy as some one else then the final tick never happens and you get exactly zero cleave.

Additionally the final tick is not channeled so is no longer buffed by the other destro staff passive.

Also there are 4 tics and the final tic is 50% larger, so it’s more like 67% damage loss if the heavy is completed, assuming no active buffs. Some sets buff only the fully charged attack and each tic has its own tick chance, which may account for the numbers you are quoting.

Between all these factors I would guess it’s going to be 80% loss of damage.

If instead they left the aoe on all the tics and just reduced the percentage the mechanics would remain the same, and the damage loss would be far more straightforward to understand and easy to adjust.

FrancisCrawford

Braffin wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

Yeah, a lightning channel consists of 3 channeled ticks (Dot) + the last tick (direct damage).

I can't comprehend your other argument tho. You're playing content designed for 4 people with a buddy in a group of two and expect developers to build the game around that? That's no argument, but wishful thinking.

On a side note: If "sergeants mail and so on" includes the set storm master and you haven't done anything else to reach penetration cap, I'd suggest to swap this out for something like noble's duelist or even infallible aether. Otherwise you're struggling due to lack of pen.

And yes -- I think duoing a dungeon in normal mode is a reasonable aspiration for people who've been playing for the entire lifeof the game.

Nothing wrong with that. But honestly, do you really believe your struggles with reaching that goal is caused by some tweaked numbers?

Don't get this wrong, but the primarily affected build would melt anything in normal mode within seconds, so there is enough space for you to improve your build to pass the upcoming changes unharmed.

And I'm sure a lot of people are willing to help with that.

No doubt.

Some of those people may even know how many ticks a lightning heavy attack currently has.

bachpain

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

I'm just so tired of this cycle of dreading every patch. It's like every time there's a fun way to play the game, out comes the nerf hammer.

Instead of examining *why* so many people are using heavy attack builds (like hey... maybe there's an overall issue with the combat system in this game that's turning off a significant portion of players and potential players), they just have to over-nerf whatever is currently popular and make an assortment of weird random changes to go along with it.

Many of us average players are simply doomed to live out a perpetual struggle of trying to adjust and then getting nerfed again by the time we figure something else out.

I've been in this game a long time and I'm pretty good at it, not amazing... and I can probably adjust if I want to. But whether I want to adjust or take a break (I mean there's no new content anyway) is a very open question right now.

That said, many newer or less sweaty players I know have seen this change and are already talking about taking a break... reducing playtime... moving on to another game until the next actual content release... some of them will probably find another game they prefer and will not come back. They just got these heavy attack builds not long ago, and are finally starting to get beyond casual content... and bam, slapped back to the drawing board. Feels like we've been here before.

Taking away and giving little or nothing back every patch takes a toll. Many setups / gear / classes are in a not wonderful place right now and the focus always seems to be on reigning in what people are enjoying, rather than giving them more options. I hope ZoS can swallow their pride and consider that the game seems to be losing players and failing to retain new players - and this is a complex issue with multiple causes, yes, but the constant, poorly thought-out over-nerfing of popular playstyles is a big part of it.

Well, anyway that's my opinion on it.

*EDIT to add a constructive suggestion so I'm not just complaining: How about *reducing* the AoE damage from lightning heavies in a more reasoned way. Just for example, tri-focus could apply 25% aoe to the first tick, 50% to the second tick, full aoe damage to the final tick. Smaller changes. See how that goes. Revisit it in the next patch if there's still an issue.

Plaguebreak could have also been handled this way, capping the bonus damage to a reasonable level... but instead that became an example of the wrong way to balance, the set was just deleted.

Make more measured changes. This all-or nothing approach is not the way.

Do what many have done, walk away and play a new game. Zos isn't going to change.

Bl4ckR3alm93

Gendizer wrote: »

(It is about "Tri Focus" nerf). Have you just nerfed HA builds and are doing it again? You made the Arcanist with a HUGE AoE and single-target damage, but you're depriving us of the only advantage that gave us a chance to overcome difficult content. Where is the logic? Why are you ruining the game again?

Tri Focus is a buff and we dont need 12% heavy attack on Flame Staff. The new DoT damage in exchange is way better and is a buff.

The issue is Ancient Knowledge passive because that 10% to single target was changed to the new status effect which is a nerf depending on the build.

Braffin

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Why should heavy attack builds be “reigned in”?

The number one killer of any mmo is declining population. Heavy attack builds allow more people to enjoy more content. More people in the game equals a better game.

How someone else being able to complete content on an “easier” build affect you? Other than filling up your PUG dungeons and trials way faster IT DOES NOT. If you are chasing super high dps then there are meta builds out there, get on with your bad self. Meanwhile more people get to play and keep the game alive when content is more accessible.

Creating additional ways to play without destroying the more complex builds is a good thing for everyone whether you are super elite or super casual. Changing mechanics that eliminate either end of that spectrum is bad for the game.

First of all: The poster you're referring to didn't appreciate the reigning in of HA builds, but of lightning staves, which is a significant difference.

Lightning staves are far ahead every other choice dps-wise regarding HA builds, due to the channeled nature of their heavy attack. Take the set sergeants mail for example: While fire staves and frost staves are buffed once per attack, lightning is buffed 4 times. That imbalance makes it next to impossible to make other HA builds viable for more content and restricts HA users into using lightning HA. So it has to be reigned in of course.

Now a few words to your considerations regarding difficulty: First of all there is a difference between content and difficulty options. While you pretend that HA builds allow more people to enjoy more content, that's far away from truth. The builds utilizing lightning HA are primarily used to participate in higher difficulty modes of the very same content, as can already be done in normal mode by almost every seasoned player. It's, as was said before, an easy-mode-option for hardmode, which is nothing but ludicrous per definition.

But why is this bad now? Well, the answer to that is quite easy. While it's of course enjoyable to burn through every content provided by the game with unequaled ease for a time, this behaviour leads to various issues medium term. Most players get bored by content done in this way rather quick and stop playing it after they recieved their desired rewards, finally leaving dead content behind them. Additionally the average time, players are occupied reaching their goals in said content, is declining due to the comparatively easy possibilities of completion. If a group of players is working several month to reach a set goal, they spend more time with the game as they do if they reach said goal in 2 weeks (or 2 days, if we look at the latest trial for example). That's obvious, isn't it?

So no, allowing players to skip every meaningful mechanic by simply nuke said encounters due to obscene cleave damage isn't healthy for any game, but leads exactly to the declining population you're afraid of. Most casual players understand this mechanics very well and stick to other difficulty modes anyways, as they are not interested in hardmodes in the first place.

It's only a few one-button-sweatlords which are really affected by this changes, as they loose their way of cheesing through hardmode content.

4 ticks to a lightning heavy attack? Really?

Anyhow, your main point is simply false. Even with Oakensoul bullds, which at least in my case usually means Sergeant's Mail and so on, @DarcyMardin and I find it challenging to duo DLC dungeons. Before them, we didn't even try.

Yeah, a lightning channel consists of 3 channeled ticks (Dot) + the last tick (direct damage).

I can't comprehend your other argument tho. You're playing content designed for 4 people with a buddy in a group of two and expect developers to build the game around that? That's no argument, but wishful thinking.

On a side note: If "sergeants mail and so on" includes the set storm master and you haven't done anything else to reach penetration cap, I'd suggest to swap this out for something like noble's duelist or even infallible aether. Otherwise you're struggling due to lack of pen.

And yes -- I think duoing a dungeon in normal mode is a reasonable aspiration for people who've been playing for the entire lifeof the game.

Nothing wrong with that. But honestly, do you really believe your struggles with reaching that goal is caused by some tweaked numbers?

Don't get this wrong, but the primarily affected build would melt anything in normal mode within seconds, so there is enough space for you to improve your build to pass the upcoming changes unharmed.

And I'm sure a lot of people are willing to help with that.

No doubt.

Some of those people may even know how many ticks a lightning heavy attack currently has.

Don't worry, I'm well aware of the changes zos made to the channel of lightning HA with U35, even if the forgot to mention that in patch notes.

I'm surprised that you are tho, as you only see this by using cmx and testing it specifically. 🤔

You can rest assured then, as you definitely will find a way to beat some dungeon in normal mode.

The time of cheesing trial trifectas is over tho.

Foto1

Gendizer wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Gendizer wrote: »

dosco wrote: »

i have seen more raid leaders specifically asking people to bring HA sorcs than i've seen anyone in game saying to please don't bring that. Yet the forum is full of this weird fear of exclusion

Yes, but difficult achievements like a trifecta can never be completed with HA builds because they deal too little damage.

Now or before? Because I've seen plenty of HA-only trifectas.

Always. I mean trifectas in DLS trials, such as vSE, vRG, and vDSR.

rg trifecta was closed by heavy attackers

Malkosha

I don't understand why anything has to be changed at all. It hurts no one and allows people to have fun. "Oh noes! People are playing this game to have fun! This has to stop"!

What I'm reading here is some people had to walk to school uphill through blinding snowstorms with no shoes so everyone else has to do it too. Seems to me if you're so concerned with how someone else might be harmlessly playing the game, you have bigger problems than Lightning Staff AOE splash damage. When people complain about MMORPG communities, the excuses and justifications to support this change are great examples of trying to kill the fun of others for no reason except they can.

Leave the Lightning Staff AOE splash damage alone and buff the other staffs to compensate if they need it. Supporting a nerf to something that doesn't effect you at all is sad. Stop being sad.

Braffin

Malkosha wrote: »

I don't understand why anything has to be changed at all. It hurts no one and allows people to have fun. "Oh noes! People are playing this game to have fun! This has to stop"!

What I'm reading here is some people had to walk to school uphill through blinding snowstorms with no shoes so everyone else has to do it too. Seems to me if you're so concerned with how someone else might be harmlessly playing the game, you have bigger problems than Lightning Staff AOE splash damage. When people complain about MMORPG communities, the excuses and justifications to support this change are great examples of trying to kill the fun of others for no reason except they can.

Leave the Lightning Staff AOE splash damage alone and buff the other staffs to compensate if they need it. Supporting a nerf to something that doesn't effect you at all is sad. Stop being sad.

Well, why not make all enemies in the world one-shot-able by a simple LA then, so we all can have even more fun?

Exactly, too easy and the fun weren't persistent.

You know, what's sad? Destroying a good portion of a game (in this case higher difficulty modes) out of envy and farming mentality, while running around like a farmbot with duct tape applied to LMB. That's something really sad.

Malkosha

Braffin wrote: »

Well, why not make all enemies in the world one-shot-able by a simple LA then, so we all can have even more fun?

Exactly, too easy and the fun weren't persistent.

You know, what's sad? Destroying a good portion of a game (in this case higher difficulty modes) out of envy and farming mentality, while running around like a farmbot with duct tape applied to LMB. That's something really sad.

Over exaggerating much? In what way has HA builds, as they currently sit, hurt you? Have you been forced to play this way? Has it made the way you play the game change? How has this disadvantaged you? Or ... are you just another person who believes everyone should play the way you want them too and anything else is unacceptable? Putting up some false equivalency about one-shotting MOB's is disingenuous at best. No one is doing this. No one is asking for this. Not even close. So ... what are you really after here?

Braffin

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, why not make all enemies in the world one-shot-able by a simple LA then, so we all can have even more fun?

Exactly, too easy and the fun weren't persistent.

You know, what's sad? Destroying a good portion of a game (in this case higher difficulty modes) out of envy and farming mentality, while running around like a farmbot with duct tape applied to LMB. That's something really sad.

Over exaggerating much? In what way has HA builds, as they currently sit, hurt you? Have you been forced to play this way? Has it made the way you play the game change? How has this disadvantaged you? Or ... are you just another person who believes everyone should play the way you want them too and anything else is unacceptable? Putting up some false equivalency about one-shotting MOB's is disingenuous at best. No one is doing this. No one is asking for this. Not even close. So ... what are you really after here?

You may read about all that further above as well as in several other threads regarding the present as well as the last PTS cycle and your questions will be answered. But of course you won't, because devaluing other peoples concerns by accusing them of simply untrue positions is more comfortable for the brrrrrzzzzlords.

So you shouldn't be wondering that the reactions are similar meanwhile.

On a sidenote: If we take the arguments of lightning HA defenders seriously, this build already died twice within the last 9 months. That's what I call overexaggeration.

Zodiarkslayer

Soarora wrote: »

Gendizer wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

HA builds got buffed. This is not a nerf.

Have you ever played a HA build? This is the worst nerf in HA history.

I doubt that. This isn’t the first time HA was viable. The original HA builds got demolished… think they’ve gone through worse nerfs still considering this iteration of HA is still playable.

Exactly. Back before, in CP1.0, heavy attacks were viable, 2bar and commonly didn't use Empower.
CP2.0 and changes to the HA sets made them unplayable over night.

When they were working you could do base game vetDungeons SOLO. It was fun and easy.
And then the change hammer just obliterated everything. Seriously, for 3 months I didn't know what to do with my HA MagSorc.

@Gendizer That was the worst nerf in HA history! You are overreacting right now. It'll be just fine.

Malkosha

Braffin wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, why not make all enemies in the world one-shot-able by a simple LA then, so we all can have even more fun?

Exactly, too easy and the fun weren't persistent.

You know, what's sad? Destroying a good portion of a game (in this case higher difficulty modes) out of envy and farming mentality, while running around like a farmbot with duct tape applied to LMB. That's something really sad.

Over exaggerating much? In what way has HA builds, as they currently sit, hurt you? Have you been forced to play this way? Has it made the way you play the game change? How has this disadvantaged you? Or ... are you just another person who believes everyone should play the way you want them too and anything else is unacceptable? Putting up some false equivalency about one-shotting MOB's is disingenuous at best. No one is doing this. No one is asking for this. Not even close. So ... what are you really after here?

You may read about all that further above as well as in several other threads regarding the present as well as the last PTS cycle and your questions will be answered. But of course you won't, because devaluing other peoples concerns by accusing them of simply untrue positions is more comfortable for the brrrrrzzzzlords.

So you shouldn't be wondering that the reactions are similar meanwhile.

On a sidenote: If we take the arguments of lightning HA defenders seriously, this build already died twice within the last 9 months. That's what I call overexaggeration.

I have read them and as of yet, can't find one legitimate reason to do this. Not a single one. It doesn't affect anyone else in any way. The base reason seems to be "I don't like it because they arent playing the game the way I want them to play". It's the age old cry of the sweat-lords. Give me proof otherwise, numbers or theory, and I'll change my tune, but until then I see nothing except "we don't like people playing this way".

As for the last change, I agree. It was overblown ... but not by me. I went on the PTS and tested it back then and knew it was nothing. You can check my posts back then. I've also been on the PTS this cycle and this time, there is a major problem. I've posted on that as well. If you don't want your concerns devalued, then present some facts. If they hold true, I will change my stance.

Braffin

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, why not make all enemies in the world one-shot-able by a simple LA then, so we all can have even more fun?

Exactly, too easy and the fun weren't persistent.

You know, what's sad? Destroying a good portion of a game (in this case higher difficulty modes) out of envy and farming mentality, while running around like a farmbot with duct tape applied to LMB. That's something really sad.

Over exaggerating much? In what way has HA builds, as they currently sit, hurt you? Have you been forced to play this way? Has it made the way you play the game change? How has this disadvantaged you? Or ... are you just another person who believes everyone should play the way you want them too and anything else is unacceptable? Putting up some false equivalency about one-shotting MOB's is disingenuous at best. No one is doing this. No one is asking for this. Not even close. So ... what are you really after here?

You may read about all that further above as well as in several other threads regarding the present as well as the last PTS cycle and your questions will be answered. But of course you won't, because devaluing other peoples concerns by accusing them of simply untrue positions is more comfortable for the brrrrrzzzzlords.

So you shouldn't be wondering that the reactions are similar meanwhile.

On a sidenote: If we take the arguments of lightning HA defenders seriously, this build already died twice within the last 9 months. That's what I call overexaggeration.

I have read them and as of yet, can't find one legitimate reason to do this. Not a single one. It doesn't affect anyone else in any way. The base reason seems to be "I don't like it because they arent playing the game the way I want them to play". It's the age old cry of the sweat-lords. Give me proof otherwise, numbers or theory, and I'll change my tune, but until then I see nothing except "we don't like people playing this way".

As for the last change, I agree. It was overblown ... but not by me. I went on the PTS and tested it back then and knew it was nothing. You can check my posts back then. I've also been on the PTS this cycle and this time, there is a major problem. I've posted on that as well. If you don't want your concerns devalued, then present some facts. If they hold true, I will change my stance.

Look, I simply don't see your "major problem", as it will be quite easy to build around this changes by slotting some AoE skills for trash encounters and burn them as usual outside of endgame content. So maybe you start with presenting this allegedly "major problem" by showing some proof, so we others may comprehend it.

If we ARE indeed talking about endgame I would be interested in your argumentation how exactly are difficulty modes changing content regarding the fun you gain out of it. There are the same enemies, the same story, the same visuals. Nothing changes. So tell me, what's all this about?

On a sidenote: It seems there isn't much difference between sweatlords and brrrrrzzzzzlords regarding mindset. The latter faction may be defined by a lack of skill compared with the first mentioned, but the interests are definitely the same.

Malkosha

Braffin wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, why not make all enemies in the world one-shot-able by a simple LA then, so we all can have even more fun?

Exactly, too easy and the fun weren't persistent.

You know, what's sad? Destroying a good portion of a game (in this case higher difficulty modes) out of envy and farming mentality, while running around like a farmbot with duct tape applied to LMB. That's something really sad.

Over exaggerating much? In what way has HA builds, as they currently sit, hurt you? Have you been forced to play this way? Has it made the way you play the game change? How has this disadvantaged you? Or ... are you just another person who believes everyone should play the way you want them too and anything else is unacceptable? Putting up some false equivalency about one-shotting MOB's is disingenuous at best. No one is doing this. No one is asking for this. Not even close. So ... what are you really after here?

You may read about all that further above as well as in several other threads regarding the present as well as the last PTS cycle and your questions will be answered. But of course you won't, because devaluing other peoples concerns by accusing them of simply untrue positions is more comfortable for the brrrrrzzzzlords.

So you shouldn't be wondering that the reactions are similar meanwhile.

On a sidenote: If we take the arguments of lightning HA defenders seriously, this build already died twice within the last 9 months. That's what I call overexaggeration.

I have read them and as of yet, can't find one legitimate reason to do this. Not a single one. It doesn't affect anyone else in any way. The base reason seems to be "I don't like it because they arent playing the game the way I want them to play". It's the age old cry of the sweat-lords. Give me proof otherwise, numbers or theory, and I'll change my tune, but until then I see nothing except "we don't like people playing this way".

As for the last change, I agree. It was overblown ... but not by me. I went on the PTS and tested it back then and knew it was nothing. You can check my posts back then. I've also been on the PTS this cycle and this time, there is a major problem. I've posted on that as well. If you don't want your concerns devalued, then present some facts. If they hold true, I will change my stance.

Look, I simply don't see your "major problem", as it will be quite easy to build around this changes by slotting some AoE skills for trash encounters and burn them as usual outside of endgame content. So maybe you start with presenting this allegedly "major problem" by showing some proof, so we others may comprehend it.

If we ARE indeed talking about endgame I would be interested in your argumentation how exactly are difficulty modes changing content regarding the fun you gain out of it. There are the same enemies, the same story, the same visuals. Nothing changes. So tell me, what's all this about?

On a sidenote: It seems there isn't much difference between sweatlords and brrrrrzzzzzlords regarding mindset. The latter faction may be defined by a lack of skill compared with the first mentioned, but the interests are definitely the same.

My "major problem" is they are changing a base game playstyle that will affect many players across the spectrum. Yes, MMORPG's are designed around changes to a certain degree, but this particular base change will disrupt a large segment of the player base for absolutely no reason what-so-ever.

It's about the Dev's promoting a playstyle, having people buy into this, spending time, energy, in-game resources and money supporting it and then turning it on it's head. All the while the people who hate that others can do this are rallying behind this nerf like it's their Holy Grail. They don't care how this affects others. They only care they can nerf those who won't play like they want them too.

This cant be fixed by just putting an AOE on the bar. I've tried that and it doesn't work. Besides, most HA builds do have a Wall of Elements type of AOE already and it's used during the HA's. If there is a legitimate reason this nerf needs to happen, whether it's disrupting the game for others or making it so others can't play the way they want, then I can live with it. In this case there isn't a good reason, much less a great one. It's a bad bait and switch and it needs to be called out.

As for your side note? You're right!

Braffin

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, why not make all enemies in the world one-shot-able by a simple LA then, so we all can have even more fun?

Exactly, too easy and the fun weren't persistent.

You know, what's sad? Destroying a good portion of a game (in this case higher difficulty modes) out of envy and farming mentality, while running around like a farmbot with duct tape applied to LMB. That's something really sad.

Over exaggerating much? In what way has HA builds, as they currently sit, hurt you? Have you been forced to play this way? Has it made the way you play the game change? How has this disadvantaged you? Or ... are you just another person who believes everyone should play the way you want them too and anything else is unacceptable? Putting up some false equivalency about one-shotting MOB's is disingenuous at best. No one is doing this. No one is asking for this. Not even close. So ... what are you really after here?

You may read about all that further above as well as in several other threads regarding the present as well as the last PTS cycle and your questions will be answered. But of course you won't, because devaluing other peoples concerns by accusing them of simply untrue positions is more comfortable for the brrrrrzzzzlords.

So you shouldn't be wondering that the reactions are similar meanwhile.

On a sidenote: If we take the arguments of lightning HA defenders seriously, this build already died twice within the last 9 months. That's what I call overexaggeration.

I have read them and as of yet, can't find one legitimate reason to do this. Not a single one. It doesn't affect anyone else in any way. The base reason seems to be "I don't like it because they arent playing the game the way I want them to play". It's the age old cry of the sweat-lords. Give me proof otherwise, numbers or theory, and I'll change my tune, but until then I see nothing except "we don't like people playing this way".

As for the last change, I agree. It was overblown ... but not by me. I went on the PTS and tested it back then and knew it was nothing. You can check my posts back then. I've also been on the PTS this cycle and this time, there is a major problem. I've posted on that as well. If you don't want your concerns devalued, then present some facts. If they hold true, I will change my stance.

Look, I simply don't see your "major problem", as it will be quite easy to build around this changes by slotting some AoE skills for trash encounters and burn them as usual outside of endgame content. So maybe you start with presenting this allegedly "major problem" by showing some proof, so we others may comprehend it.

If we ARE indeed talking about endgame I would be interested in your argumentation how exactly are difficulty modes changing content regarding the fun you gain out of it. There are the same enemies, the same story, the same visuals. Nothing changes. So tell me, what's all this about?

On a sidenote: It seems there isn't much difference between sweatlords and brrrrrzzzzzlords regarding mindset. The latter faction may be defined by a lack of skill compared with the first mentioned, but the interests are definitely the same.

My "major problem" is they are changing a base game playstyle that will affect many players across the spectrum. Yes, MMORPG's are designed around changes to a certain degree, but this particular base change will disrupt a large segment of the player base for absolutely no reason what-so-ever.

It's about the Dev's promoting a playstyle, having people buy into this, spending time, energy, in-game resources and money supporting it and then turning it on it's head. All the while the people who hate that others can do this are rallying behind this nerf like it's their Holy Grail. They don't care how this affects others. They only care they can nerf those who won't play like they want them too.

This cant be fixed by just putting an AOE on the bar. I've tried that and it doesn't work. Besides, most HA builds do have a Wall of Elements type of AOE already and it's used during the HA's. If there is a legitimate reason this nerf needs to happen, whether it's disrupting the game for others or making it so others can't play the way they want, then I can live with it. In this case there isn't a good reason, much less a great one. It's a bad bait and switch and it needs to be called out.

As for your side note? You're right!

I agree, that it's a bad move to affect more casual players out of considerations regarding endgame. There are more precise instruments around to achieve the necessary tweaks without harming players not interested in said content. Two examples, which are commonly brought up:

• Change all buffs and sets to only affect a FHA. This would be nerf only by the numbers without changing the core mechanics of the game. Additionally more weapons could be made a viable choice for HA playstyles in future updates, which is a good thing to do.
• Change how oakensoul is working in groups by tieing traditional group-buffs (like minor slayer, minor aegis and minor mending) to their respective role in instanced group content. This would also help in counteracting the devaluation of support roles in dungeons.

Both of this changes would be more thoughtful imo and achieve the necessary adjustments in endgame content while leaving more casual players unaffected.

Personally I've no idea why zos decided to stop the cheesing through endgame content (which is unhealthy for any game) in a way that impactful to other playstyles, and I definitely won't defend that. But I share their opinion, that devaluing content by lowering the effort, which has to be made for completion, has to be stopped.

Honestly, I'd really like to see more viable builds even in vet hm trials, including HA builds. But not in the way it was done with master sergeant brokenbrrrrzzzz. Content should usually be played in the intended way, by doing the mechanics of the fight, not by breezing through it due to high damage (yes, that includes LA builds as well). Skipping mechanics should definitely be more difficult than doing them at the very least, which is still the case for most LA builds.

I'm also aware of the problem some people mention regarding group building, especially in pugs. Yes, it's not pleasant to be excluded due to slightly lower damage, especially not when the provided dps is more than sufficient to complete the content in question. But that is human error and not anything which can be solved by tweaking numbers.

BasP

After doing veteran Vateshran Hollows on the PTS with a Heavy Attack build to test the proposed changes, I wouldn't really say Heavy Attack builds are unusable. Maybe trash packs went down a bit slower, but it stil felt like I was doing the Arena on easy mode (while this morning I died a few times during vVH with a Stamina Nightblade build I was testing on the PTS).



Now I haven't played with a HA build on my Warden on the live servers in a while, but I believe I last got a comparable score. I was a wee bit slower this time around because I forgot to rebind my Dodge key and change some settings though.

That said, I definitely agree that it would be nice if the bonusses from gear sets as well as the weapon passives were reworked so that a viable HA build could be made with every weapon type, even if it meant that Lightning Staffs would be changed some more in the process.

Khrogo

BasP wrote: »

After doing veteran Vateshran Hollows on the PTS with a Heavy Attack build to test the proposed changes, I wouldn't really say Heavy Attack builds are unusable. Maybe trash packs went down a bit slower, but it stil felt like I was doing the Arena on easy mode (while this morning I died a few times during vVH with a Stamina Nightblade build I was testing on the PTS).



Now I haven't played with a HA build on my Warden on the live servers in a while, but I believe I last got a comparable score. I was a wee bit slower this time around because I forgot to rebind my Dodge key and change some settings though.

That said, I definitely agree that it would be nice if the bonusses from gear sets as well as the weapon passives were reworked so that a viable HA build could be made with every weapon type, even if it meant that Lightning Staffs would be changed some more in the process.

Do you mind me asking what your skill bar setup is for a score like that? I must be doing something wrong. Lol

BasP

Khrogo wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

After doing veteran Vateshran Hollows on the PTS with a Heavy Attack build to test the proposed changes, I wouldn't really say Heavy Attack builds are unusable. Maybe trash packs went down a bit slower, but it stil felt like I was doing the Arena on easy mode (while this morning I died a few times during vVH with a Stamina Nightblade build I was testing on the PTS).



Now I haven't played with a HA build on my Warden on the live servers in a while, but I believe I last got a comparable score. I was a wee bit slower this time around because I forgot to rebind my Dodge key and change some settings though.

That said, I definitely agree that it would be nice if the bonusses from gear sets as well as the weapon passives were reworked so that a viable HA build could be made with every weapon type, even if it meant that Lightning Staffs would be changed some more in the process.

Do you mind me asking what your skill bar setup is for a score like that? I must be doing something wrong. Lol

Sure! I used Unstable Wall of Elements, Deep Fissure, Arctic Blast, Growing Swarm, Winter's Revenge and Wild Guardian. The fifth skill is a flex spot for me. I switched Winter's Revenge to Elemental Susceptibility for the fight with the Minotaur in the Green Zone as it's a more mobile fight, and used Lotus Blossom during the last part of the Red Zone to get some passive healing in (though that wasn't really necessary in hindsight). In the past I've also used Deceptive Predator for the speed buff, Inner Beast for the 10% extra damage and Screaming Cliff Racer for the extra Weapon and Spell Damage.

To get a higher score you have to kill all the adds too, including the adds in the portals in the Blue Zone and that giant fire colossus (the Brimstone Caretaker) in the Red Zone. I've never had a 300K+ score though, so I don't know if I just have to be faster to get that or if there is something in the Green Zone I'm missing.