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Why are we forced to play dumb? (Dialogue options. Again.)

  • Aelorin
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    From a pure RPG aspect I can understand where this is coming from, but on the other hand it does not bother me;

    I do know about Hermaeus Mora, but I also do want to know everything about him, so I ll gladly listen to what a NCP has to say about this.

    The first time I do quests in a zone, I click on all dialogue, even if it is something I allready know, or repeat of past actions.

    Don't forget ESO is the only fully voiced over MMO!
    And so the Elder Scrolls foretold.You will be shy, and I will be bold.
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  • NotaDaedraWorshipper
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    A lot of y'all need to understand you're sharing this game with ppl not so familiar with weird fantasy as you or me. Meaning, they should have the chance to enjoy ESO without having to google stuff every 30 seconds. If anything, they should polish a lot of super vague dialogues that confuse the hell out of new players.

    That said, I'd like if they added several dialogue options and marked them so you clearly know tell apart the "I just bought the game and never picked up a fantasy book, please be gentle with me" option and the "I literally wrote a 600 page essay on Mysticism, give it all" one.

    A loto f the things we have issues with hasn't much to do with being familar with TES or fantasy, just being capable of common rare sense and the slighest logical thinking.
    [Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!
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  • ShalidorsHeir
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    Aelorin wrote: »
    From a pure RPG aspect I can understand where this is coming from, but on the other hand it does not bother me;

    I do know about Hermaeus Mora, but I also do want to know everything about him, so I ll gladly listen to what a NCP has to say about this.

    The first time I do quests in a zone, I click on all dialogue, even if it is something I allready know, or repeat of past actions.

    Don't forget ESO is the only fully voiced over MMO!

    i agree there but voiced or not - it has not be dumb as hell and redundant sometimes ...

    like you remember that akaviri city in northern elsweyr where the assassin introduces himself as an assassin to a stranger ... well well - and tries afterwards to hide the fact that is props going to kill someone - comon
    Eltrys Wolfszahn
    Julia Ansei at-Tava
    C H I M
    "Find a new hill, become a king"
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  • Roxxsmom
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    rpa wrote: »
    WoW had a lot of "interesting" tasks. For example several quests to shift trough dung. Like feeding a fell guard hound to recover keys from droppings. One particulary menial job I remember was to collect spider eggs from butts of infested bears. (The cutest pet in gaem, the Infested Bear Cub could be found nearby.) But I do not think that kind of silliness quite fits in mood of ESO.

    Oh gawd, and all those boars walking around without livers, and all those eyeless raptors!

    At least ESO doesn't have as many of those "bring me this many [insert body part] so I can make sausage" quests! I do sometimes wonder about settings and story segments where people are supposed to be starving, though, when there are nearby crates, sacks, and barrels with provisioning ingredients that are free for the taking!

    I agree about the dialog that asks questions any resident ofTamriel, let alone someone whose been adventuring for years and has met a number of Daedric princes personally, should know the answer to. As was pointed out up thread, there could be ways to balance information needed by new players by creating ways of asking the questions that are more, ah, insightful, or maybe even by providing the option of bypassing certain questions entirely without losing access to more useful and specific information about the quest.
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  • ElvenOverlord
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    ESO can be pretty weird sometimes. You have a universe where there are vampires, werewolves, dragons, daedra constantly interfering in the lives of mortals every day with organizations tasked to fight them and an npc is skeptical of daedric prince involvement in something that clearly isn’t natural? Doubts and dismissals of a Wilderking when there are things and beings way more powerful and extraordinary? You can’t have a world where the extraordinary exists and is literally part of the everyday lives of the people that live there and constantly have them skeptical of it at the same time. ESO wants to have its cake and eat it too.
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  • Syldras
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    richo262 wrote: »
    You wait till the Consortium of Breton Beet farmers hears about this. Outrageous.

    Yeah, yeah. Tell them to send their letters of complaint to Sadrith Mora. At the coast, the winters are a bit harsh at times and I'll need something to light my stove. ...Wait. They can write, can't they?
    pklemming wrote: »
    Life is so much easier, if you use my playstyle.
    You spam E on any dialog, then run off to kill things. I hear that NPCs have stuff to say, but it honestly gets in the way of killing things.

    That's a great idea! No complaints about badly written books anymore either, if I don't read them but just stare at their colorful covers instead, or use them to swat mosquitoes, or throw them at people who... nevermind.
    A lot of y'all need to understand you're sharing this game with ppl not so familiar with weird fantasy as you or me. Meaning, they should have the chance to enjoy ESO without having to google stuff every 30 seconds. If anything, they should polish a lot of super vague dialogues that confuse the hell out of new players.
    That said, I'd like if they added several dialogue options and marked them so you clearly know tell apart the "I just bought the game and never picked up a fantasy book, please be gentle with me" option and the "I literally wrote a 600 page essay on Mysticism, give it all" one.

    The whole problem is the wording. The questions could just be worded in a way that doesn't seem totally silly.
    @Syldras | PC | EU
    The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
    Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
    Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
    Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
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  • Syldras
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    Funniest dialogue so far, at Kemel-Ze:
    NPC: Greetings, Saviour of Clockwork City!
    PC: What's Clockwork City?
    NPC: I'm sure you'll never get there!

    d3xaesw8exu1.jpg

    That's almost Oblivion quality nonsensical.

    At least Sotha Sil's monologues there were okay.

    Although, calling him a returning character in the Necrom announcement stream wasn't quite correct. It's only a light projection sourced by a memory device, after all.

    Then again, it's great to know that Lord Seht also invented the chatbot.
    @Syldras | PC | EU
    The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
    Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
    Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
    Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
    Options
  • Lady_Sleepless
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    Completely agree. My main issue with the newest chapter was Leramil seemed to always repeat whatever Hermaeus Mora said or recap everything we just did. It really ruined her character and to be honest except for the weird forced love story it felt like she never had to be present. Like if she were cut from the story I don't think it would have made much difference. I think between the rest of the cast they kind of had everything rounded up and wouldn't have needed her.
    The main character shouldn't need some one to hold their hand through the story I can think for myself and find my way just fine. Otherwise I enjoyed Necrom. Meln was a delight.
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  • NotaDaedraWorshipper
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    Completely agree. My main issue with the newest chapter was Leramil seemed to always repeat whatever Hermaeus Mora said or recap everything we just did. It really ruined her character and to be honest except for the weird forced love story it felt like she never had to be present. Like if she were cut from the story I don't think it would have made much difference. I think between the rest of the cast they kind of had everything rounded up and wouldn't have needed her.
    The main character shouldn't need some one to hold their hand through the story I can think for myself and find my way just fine. Otherwise I enjoyed Necrom. Meln was a delight.

    So she's like Eveli in Blackwood? Who is a complete waste of polygons and data there.
    [Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!
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  • tsaescishoeshiner
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    They've written other characters that cut themselves off when they're being too technical or arcane, but Leramil's lines don't seem to be that incomprehensible. It's like she says a sort-of big word or two.
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
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  • Carcamongus
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    Syldras wrote: »
    Funniest dialogue so far, at Kemel-Ze:
    NPC: Greetings, Saviour of Clockwork City!
    PC: What's Clockwork City?
    NPC: I'm sure you'll never get there!

    d3xaesw8exu1.jpg

    That's almost Oblivion quality nonsensical.

    At least Sotha Sil's monologues there were okay.

    Although, calling him a returning character in the Necrom announcement stream wasn't quite correct. It's only a light projection sourced by a memory device, after all.

    Then again, it's great to know that Lord Seht also invented the chatbot.

    That dialogue works well if you're roleplaying as Captain Oblivious.
    Imperial DK and Necro tank. PC/NA
    "Nothing is so bad that it can't get any worse." (Brazilian saying)
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  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    +1 Tired of my character acting like an idiot with no option to skip.

    The problem with the hand-holding (I should say another problem with the hand-holding) is that if you care about these things, you’re paying attention and don’t need them. If you don’t care about these things, the hand-holding effort is wasted as you spam E to skip all the talking. On the rare occasions someone is away from the game halfway through a quest it’s possible to abandon and restart it. So who is this for, really?

    And as others have already noted, it could usually be rewritten so that my character doesn’t come off as brain dead.
    #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
    A useful explanation for how RNG works
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  • vsrs_au
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    Completely agree. My main issue with the newest chapter was Leramil seemed to always repeat whatever Hermaeus Mora said or recap everything we just did. It really ruined her character and to be honest except for the weird forced love story it felt like she never had to be present. Like if she were cut from the story I don't think it would have made much difference. I think between the rest of the cast they kind of had everything rounded up and wouldn't have needed her.
    The main character shouldn't need some one to hold their hand through the story I can think for myself and find my way just fine. Otherwise I enjoyed Necrom. Meln was a delight.

    So she's like Eveli in Blackwood? Who is a complete waste of polygons and data there.
    Eveli's one of my favourite characters. Yes, she was overfond of [re]stating the obvious in the Blackwood chapter, but she's friendly (very), attractive, and overall I like her personality.
    PC(Steam) / EU / play from Melbourne, Australia / avg ping 390
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  • colossalvoids
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    vsrs_au wrote: »
    Completely agree. My main issue with the newest chapter was Leramil seemed to always repeat whatever Hermaeus Mora said or recap everything we just did. It really ruined her character and to be honest except for the weird forced love story it felt like she never had to be present. Like if she were cut from the story I don't think it would have made much difference. I think between the rest of the cast they kind of had everything rounded up and wouldn't have needed her.
    The main character shouldn't need some one to hold their hand through the story I can think for myself and find my way just fine. Otherwise I enjoyed Necrom. Meln was a delight.

    So she's like Eveli in Blackwood? Who is a complete waste of polygons and data there.
    Eveli's one of my favourite characters. Yes, she was overfond of [re]stating the obvious in the Blackwood chapter, but she's friendly (very), attractive, and overall I like her personality.

    She was a good Orsinium character, with an arc and all, but I guess for most people who played it her... Change back to the merry child was a bit odd? Like Wrothgar never happened and nothing have changed in her. All the possible depth was lost momentarily.
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  • Syldras
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    vsrs_au wrote: »
    Eveli's one of my favourite characters. Yes, she was overfond of [re]stating the obvious in the Blackwood chapter, but she's friendly (very), attractive, and overall I like her personality.

    Pigtails, bland doll face, cutesy talking, high-pitched voice... I can't stand her.
    @Syldras | PC | EU
    The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
    Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
    Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
    Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
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  • I_killed_Vivec
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    .
    Syldras wrote: »
    vsrs_au wrote: »
    Eveli's one of my favourite characters. Yes, she was overfond of [re]stating the obvious in the Blackwood chapter, but she's friendly (very), attractive, and overall I like her personality.

    Pigtails, bland doll face, cutesy talking, high-pitched voice... I can't stand her.

    You forgot "cockney"!
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  • vsrs_au
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    Syldras wrote: »
    vsrs_au wrote: »
    Eveli's one of my favourite characters. Yes, she was overfond of [re]stating the obvious in the Blackwood chapter, but she's friendly (very), attractive, and overall I like her personality.

    Pigtails, bland doll face, cutesy talking, high-pitched voice... I can't stand her.
    - I like the pigtails (and also the large elven eyes)
    - the face is typical bosmer, so does that make all bosmer bland doll figures?
    - the high pitched voice is just 1 variant of a female voice, so any irritation is purely in the listener's mindset
    - as for the cockney accent, well that's a byproduct of the game's general approach to all the race's accents: they all seem to use their own accents, reachfolk sound Scottish (to me, anyway), nords have an exaggerated version of a Scandivanian accent, etc.

    But each to their own :)
    Edited by vsrs_au on June 22, 2023 8:11PM
    PC(Steam) / EU / play from Melbourne, Australia / avg ping 390
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  • Syldras
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    vsrs_au wrote: »
    - I like the pigtails (and also the large elven eyes)
    - the face is typical bosmer, so does that make all bosmer bland doll figures?
    - the high pitched voice is just 1 variant of a female voice, so any irritation is purely in the listener's mindset

    But each to their own :)

    Yes, to each their own! :)

    I do, personally, find extremely high pitched voices unpleasant to listen to. The tone is alerting in a way. I mean, I could bear them irl if necessary, of course, but I wouldn't necessarily want to listen to a narration by that voice type. I think it's totally fine to have likes and dislikes when it comes to this; actually this is a topic I often come across when it comes to audiobooks (people not being able to enjoy a recording because they can't stand the narrator's voice - or the opposite, people finding a voicetype especially enjoyable and having favourite narrators or voice actors).

    In case of Eveli, it's the overall picture. Everything just screams "childlike/cute". She doesn't only have a babyface, she also has a hairstyle that's often considered "young", she has a remarkably high voice and also talks cutesy, she's naive and doesn't come across as the smartest person. If you're not into that, or even, the opposite, find that annoying, there's nothing appealing in her.

    I think there are a few nice looking Bosmer, btw, just not Eveli :p
    @Syldras | PC | EU
    The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
    Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
    Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
    Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
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  • Syldras
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    I'm starting to wonder if there's any quest that's not more or less obvious this chapter? I only play 1-3 quests each evening due to lack of time at the moment, but it's basically always the same problem: If you follow the dialogues and read the lorebooks attentively, it's obvious what the whole thing is about - but you still have to pretend you have no clue or that the upcoming events were a surprise.

    Like the quest in Sailenmora I played this evening, where one lorebook in the Baandari camp nearby already explains everything, even if you haven't progressed the quest at all.

    Or one early part of the main quest where you have to wonder about an "unknown artifact" via dialogue, although a lorebook nearby already explained the artifact in detail...

    Okay, the Tel Dreloth quest wasn't that obvious, except for if you know Nathaniel Hawthorne's "Rappacini's Daughter" ;) It was well-written and entertaining though, so I won't complain.

    Even the romance part of that quest was okay - in contrast to that extremely dumb NPC "flirting" in Sailenmora. If romance has to be randomly slapped into quests, could they at least write it less stupidly?! Same goes for the main quest, btw; I have to admit, I'm not yet that far into that quest line, but what I've seen so far, didn't seem convincing... What makes them appeal to each other anyway?! Their shared interest in fancy hairstyles?!
    @Syldras | PC | EU
    The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
    Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
    Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
    Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
    Options
  • VindictiveRidge
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    Roxxsmom wrote: »
    I do sometimes wonder about settings and story segments where people are supposed to be starving, though, when there are nearby crates, sacks, and barrels with provisioning ingredients that are free for the taking!
    I'm convinced at this point that the camp in the Forgotten Crypts is composed entirely of Namiira worshippers. How long have they been in there hiding from the Llodos plague? Like, a couple of weeks, maybe? Nobody thought to bring rations? Yet there are a bunch of containers in the camp that are chock full of provisioning ingredients...
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  • PrimeSeptim
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    Vestige:

    giphy.gif


    :D

    I'd like to see more comments and less questions. Some sarcasm, aggression, impatience...


    "Just tell me what needs doing..."
    "You talk too much..."
    "I don't care. Just tell me who needs killing."

    NPC is giving a quest to kill some Daedra;

    Dialogue choice #1. "I've fought many of them during the Planemeld. They won't be a problem for much longer."
    Dialogue choice #2. "I like to fight fire with fire." (Sorcerer)

    Or certain dialogue based on previous actions of the player.

    "I've killed more Daedra than you've drawn breaths."
    "I've fought mud crabs more fearsome than you!"

    Why can't the NPC ask some pointless questions for once? Then we could have a plethora of
    responses that suit the character we're playing.

    More use of the Persuasion/Intimidation passives and unique dialogue for different races or if the
    player is a member of the Mage's or Fighter's guild.

    I was doing an Ember companion quest the other night on my Dunmer and there was some
    unique and interesting dialogue concerning Telvanni/Slavery and if therefore she'd like to continue
    travelling with me. I thought that was pretty cool. We need more of that.
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  • Elsonso
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    Syldras wrote: »
    vsrs_au wrote: »
    Eveli's one of my favourite characters. Yes, she was overfond of [re]stating the obvious in the Blackwood chapter, but she's friendly (very), attractive, and overall I like her personality.

    Pigtails, bland doll face, cutesy talking, high-pitched voice... I can't stand her.

    I don't mind the appearance. What was annoying in Blackwood was the incessant huddles that we had to do. It is like the writing team was directed to add "checkpoints" to meet some quota imposed upon them.

    I have not done the Necrom quests yet... Please tell me that the huddles didn't get carried along from Blackwood when they did Blackwood portals v2 for Necrom...




    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
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  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    What was annoying in Blackwood was the incessant huddles that we had to do. It is like the writing team was directed to add "checkpoints" to meet some quota imposed upon them.

    While we’re on that topic, I would like to complain that my character who completed the Dark Brotherhood questline was required to blab that she was a Dark Brotherhood assassin and then get scolded for it by Eveli. Added bonus that I’m not allowed to call Eveli out for her attachment to the Mysterium Xarxes!
    #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
    A useful explanation for how RNG works
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  • Nestor
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    Back in the days a Planscape:Torment we had lots of dialog choices to play with. Heck, Morrowind had choices.

    With the advent of voice acting all lines of dialog, it gets real expensive real fast to give us these options.

    So, just like exposition in movies, we have to be explained things as that is the LCD.

    At least we get to acknowledge prior activities with certain NPCs
    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
    Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"

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  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    Nestor wrote: »
    With the advent of voice acting all lines of dialog, it gets real expensive real fast to give us these options.

    But that being the case, they could cut out the constant parroting back of stuff we should already know and save a lot of money.
    #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
    A useful explanation for how RNG works
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  • Treselegant
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    Syldras wrote: »
    Even the romance part of that quest was okay - in contrast to that extremely dumb NPC "flirting" in Sailenmora. If romance has to be randomly slapped into quests, could they at least write it less stupidly?! Same goes for the main quest, btw; I have to admit, I'm not yet that far into that quest line, but what I've seen so far, didn't seem convincing... What makes them appeal to each other anyway?! Their shared interest in fancy hairstyles?!

    I don't understand the need the writers seem to have to shoehorn a romantic connection between side characters in to the main plots of the last few years. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it seemed to start with Greymoor. Is it some sort of bone thrown to those who say they enjoy romance in the game? Or is just part of this 'style' of writing? If it's an attempt to court those who like romance then it misunderstands a great deal. You can't force emotional connection to your characters this way. It feels like, well, low effort 'shipping' at times.

    I said it months ago on another thread about writing and I feel it bears repeating: that there feels a formula at work here, born of lack of time, lack of experience and overall lack of direction.
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  • Elsonso
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    Nestor wrote: »
    With the advent of voice acting all lines of dialog, it gets real expensive real fast to give us these options.

    But that being the case, they could cut out the constant parroting back of stuff we should already know and save a lot of money.

    "Who is {daedric prince/deity/god}" is a question that is probably going to be answered by whatever is coming next. If not, it ain't important. Besides, I am sure there is a book out on the subject already. Probably about 20 feet to the left. :smile:

    These things are for the new players, and I say make them sit down and read the lore of they want the basics. :smile: I suggest that new players are basically unsure of which dialog entry will start the quest, so they click on everything, then Goodbye. As long as the marker or the circle shows up nearby, or on their map, they are content and happy. If asked what they just heard/read, they would simply stare with a "what are you talking about?" expression. :smile:
    I don't understand the need the writers seem to have to shoehorn a romantic connection between side characters in to the main plots of the last few years. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it seemed to start with Greymoor. Is it some sort of bone thrown to those who say they enjoy romance in the game? Or is just part of this 'style' of writing? If it's an attempt to court those who like romance then it misunderstands a great deal. You can't force emotional connection to your characters this way. It feels like, well, low effort 'shipping' at times.

    I see this as just one of the things they are doing to give the characters more depth. In their drive to be pithy, writers can "dehumanize" the characters and make them wooden or cardboard cutouts.
    Edited by Elsonso on June 26, 2023 2:10PM
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
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  • Treselegant
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    I see this as just one of the things they are doing to give the characters more depth. In their drive to be pithy, writers can "dehumanize" the characters and make them wooden or cardboard cutouts.

    A lot of these characters have been quite flat in recent years so it's difficult to care about their romantic lives. A lot of the time it's just not really necessary and it doesn't add depth to the plot or the characters. These are one-dimensional feeling characters that exist to drive the plot forward and their romances just dont feel real. The flatness plus the romantic plots contribute to the 'fan-fictiony' impression I get.
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  • Syldras
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    A lot of these characters have been quite flat in recent years so it's difficult to care about their romantic lives. A lot of the time it's just not really necessary and it doesn't add depth to the plot or the characters. These are one-dimensional feeling characters that exist to drive the plot forward and their romances just dont feel real. The flatness plus the romantic plots contribute to the 'fan-fictiony' impression I get.

    That's exactly what bothers me: It's all so shallowly/badly written that it's just not convincing. It doesn't improve anything, it doesn't really give more credibility to the characters, it doesn't add to the plot or the atmosphere. How could it! What I've seen in Necrom's main quest so far was basically this coming out of nowhere (spoiler-free!):

    Girl: Oh, I like that guy.
    Guy: Oh, I like that girl.
    Ghost of a dead Telvanni Magister who comments on everything: Oh, they seem to like eachother, hehe.

    There's no context, no depth, nothing specific that makes it believable or interesting. Not sure if it's just my translation (as I'm not playing the English version), but "Guy" doesn't even come across as smart (the opposite, his words seem rather simple, even for his age and especially for his profession), so I have no clue what reason "Girl" would have to find him fascinating. They're not on the same level, not even close.

    I'm fine with 1 or 2 quests per chapter that focus on a pair of lovers and some obstacle that has to be overcome as the quest objective (I mean, why not?! We're helping people with all kinds of things, whether mundane or completely weird). But random romance and flirting, unrelated to the story itself? Unnecessary.

    Also, why has it always to be romance? People/NPCs can be characterized by so many things, e.g. religious or political views, interests, even weird hobbies (btw, why is Revus not in this chapter? Or Divayth? ZOS had characters returning at the most unfitting places, but now we have a chapter in Telvanni lands where having two of the most noted Telvanni NPCs returning would actually make sense, there's no sign of them).
    @Syldras | PC | EU
    The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
    Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
    Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
    Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
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  • Kingpindragon
    Kingpindragon
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    I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I appreciate all the dialog, even the 'unimportant' dynamic (optional) dialog of the Quest's Follower NPCs, if you decided interact with them. I'd rather have all of that than reading some quest board. I've been playing for awhile so I know I can easily skip dialog I don't like.

    I have a friend that only plays a few times a month, and sometimes ends mid-quest chain, so they enjoy recaps.

    On the other end, if I hear the word "Fate" one more time...
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