Why are we forced to play dumb? (Dialogue options. Again.)

NotaDaedraWorshipper · June 2023

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS has to make the game like this, as the game is created in the real world.

Meaning players can start anywhere, with no idea what's what or who's who. So they have to act like the player is dumb.
Also, the questrecaps are there because it is an MMO. MMO's are meant to be played for a long time period, meaning players could take long breaks, or only return to a certain quest after they have completed other content. So there is the possibility of them not remembering what they were doing or what happened. Hence the recaps.

Some dialogue options are there to keep the character on track of the quests(on rails), so they don't talk about one thing and all of a sudden there is no more dialogue for that. Halting the quest. So the quest has to keep the player on track of the quest.

There also need to be stop/continue points in quests, for in-case a person crashes or logs off and misses important dialogue. This way they can repeat the missed dialogue by talking to the NPC, so they can continue where they left off without missing anything.

All of these are real world issues, solved by in-game applications. That is just the nature of MMO's. And ZOS does a great job at all this, especially with so much content in the game.

PS: Just skip dialogue you do not wish to hear, this won't negatively impact your experience in any way. As this dialogue is optional, with the few exceptions of important/main quests.

Anything like recaps or "I've never played before" or "I don't know anything about Elder Scrolls" questions, should be optional, which they aren't. Most of the time we can't skip them, we are forced to pick this dialogue lines if we want to proceed with the quest. It's truthfully getting tiring this so called counterpoint keeps showing up whenever people complain about the writing. There's even numerous recaps and repeats of quest objectives in quests that aren't even 30 min long.
Worse, this recaps and repeats are always in dialogue with npcs, and it just sound bad and hamfisted. It doesn't sound natural and throws immersion out the window.

Recaps and quest objectives should be in a quest log. That used to be the standard of RPGs. Having logs/journeys that actually told you things, such as what your quest goal is, what you have done, and what you still need to do. They treated you like you were a thinking adult, and not a child who suffer from severe memory loss.

We see it in other things as well, such as the "puzzles", which are not puzzles anymore. You click the thing until it's done, during which time the local npc cheers you on and then praises you for solving it.

There's also less options for roleplaying, which should be a big issue in a mmorpg in a franchise made out of rpgs.

On top of all this, ZOS is now giving us less dlc a year, because they say they want to focus on fewer things and make them bigger and better, but they don't seem to be either of those things. It's just less.

Liguar · June 2023

In W. Skyrim, Lyris would frequently summarize the situation to me as if I were a complete dolt, and most of the time she wasn't even there for the quest events she was summarizing.

I am sure it was in order to give the VA more airtime, but it was so irksome I really resented not having the option to tell her to take a hike. Likewise, acting like she was best buds with Fennorian... when a few quests ago she was whinging that he's a vampire, to my vampire.

So I just tried to immerse myself by reminding myself that I'm not dumb, she's just incredibly dumb and I should have used her to smash molag bal after all, because at least whastshisface had a personality that involved more than liking mead and Sai Sahan, probably in that order.

When Abnur Tharn, Vanus, or Elam Drals does it, it's in character because they are quite condescending, but then they have the moments where they are very affable and you can't help but love them to bits. But we don't need exposition via cluelessness from so many NPCs.

Edit: sadly I did not kill molag bal, I had to do that final quest several times to actually finish it because he refuses to be squashed in one go and wants to get stuck screeching, or bugs out some other inconvenient way. But you know, poetic license. Also, talking about Lyris being annoying, ever notice how she whinges about the muddiness in WS? I mean, is she a warrior or one of those fighters guild types that just want to sit in the pub all day?

amapola76 · June 2023

I've said this elsewhere, but it doesn't really bother me at all because I don't read it as my character being stupid or ignorant, I read it as my character fishing for information... trying to gather intelligence without giving away too much to a stranger about what you do or don't already know.

I'm a lawyer. In my own every day professional life, I ask simple straightforward questions constantly when I already know the answer. Why? Not so much to find out something I don't know as to find out what answer someone else is willing to give me, and what that reveals about them. This is true for people in all sorts of professions: lawyers, journalists, teachers/professors, spies, police/military, etc.

Tl; dr: a simple question does not automatically mean that it's a stupid question.

{English Teacher: Ok class, who can name one of Shakespeare's plays? Some ESO Players: Man, what kind of idiot English teacher doesn't even know any of Shakespeare's plays? It's like they didn't even go to college.)

Davvy123 · June 2023

For those who complain about the verbosity of the quest-giving NPCs in ESO, I'd like to contrast what you get in FFXIV: reams and reams of dialogue, which you *have* to plod through in order to progress your quests.

All in all, methinks that ESO does a pretty good job, and their writers should be commended. In a game with so much content, it's inevitable that many players will forget, don't know, or may have confused one story for another, have taken breaks from the game, have just started and didn't follow the exact chronology of the chapters and DLCs, etc. Showing occasional story recaps helps. Being a returning player myself, I do appreciate those occasions to refresh my memory of events and characters.

Sturmfaenger · June 2023

Its ok if the options for a recap are optional.

But in quest dialogue, my char often asks questions that have been explained to them literally two sentences ago.
That makes me cringe and want to apologize to the quest giver sometimes. "See, I know you just explained it, and I do get it, but please excuse my char, she's gotten a little light in the head by having me up there all the time."

Norith_Gilheart_Flail · June 2023

Dialogue options to date haven't accommodated lore freaks or anything between. They're just going to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Any further elaboration around your own characters experience is purely your own headcanon.

Frogmother · June 2023

Davvy123 wrote: »

For those who complain about the verbosity of the quest-giving NPCs in ESO, I'd like to contrast what you get in FFXIV: reams and reams of dialogue, which you *have* to plod through in order to progress your quests.

All in all, methinks that ESO does a pretty good job, and their writers should be commended. In a game with so much content, it's inevitable that many players will forget, don't know, or may have confused one story for another, have taken breaks from the game, have just started and didn't follow the exact chronology of the chapters and DLCs, etc. Showing occasional story recaps helps. Being a returning player myself, I do appreciate those occasions to refresh my memory of events and characters.

Compared to other games, ESO is below avarage. Compared to SW:TOR (multiple options to be able to be good, neutral, evil with an impact of the outcome of all quests. Well written quests and great dialogues) , the quests and dialogues in ESO are very bad. If ESO would have a similar quest structure to SW:TOR, it would be a great game.Btw. I stopped playing SW:TOR after KOTET, so I dont know if they were able to keep up the quality.

Syldras · June 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

This is why I've not bought chapters at release since Elsweyr. I wait for big sales, because the writing we see is not worth full price. I hope every year it and lore implementation will get better, but so far it doesn't.

Oh, I wouldn't say the chapter was badly written in general (from what I've seen so far). No stupid innuendo or flirting yet, and many lines from Leramil and Hermaeus Mora are actually appropriately worded, as you'd expect from the character types they represent. There are some nice metaphors and pictorial descriptions, too. Also, the lorebooks I've come across so far were interesting (although they bear a different problem: typos. Not sure if it's just my localization, but there's typos everywhere! Like the Aldmer originating from "Almeris" or Camonnaruhn spelled "Camonnarhun" - it's weird, I've rarely seen typos in the previous chapters and now there's 1 or 2 in almost every lorebook, and some dialogues have them too).

Varana wrote: »

And more importantly - you don't have to ask Leramil who HM is. The conversation carries on without choosing that option. The only thing forcing you to "play dumb" in that instance is the overwhelming urge to grey out all dialogue options.

Okay, in that case you're right - but I think there's one point where you have to ask Hermaeus Mora about Apocrypha for the dialogue to progress and he's basically laughing about your lack of knowledge? Anyway: Of course we could just skip most of the dialogue options - but it's a waste, isn't it? It would be so easy to just word replies more cleverly (e.g. not making the character seem weirdly uninformed about the world they live in) so both new players and people who already know much about TES lore could enjoy them.

Kesstryl wrote: »

I have to imagine my alts are saying different responses to the on screen options

I do that all the time too, as in the example I gave in the first post ("Who is Hermaeus Mora?" -> "So you've been working for Hermaeus Mora for a long time now. What insights do you have about him?"). Unfortunately, NPC's don't react on what we imagine our character would say but on what's actually written there. So indeed, Leramil reacted bewildered about that stupid question and immersion was broken again...

amapola76 wrote: »

{English Teacher: Ok class, who can name one of Shakespeare's plays? Some ESO Players: Man, what kind of idiot English teacher doesn't even know any of Shakespeare's plays? It's like they didn't even go to college.)

Asking questions just to learn about another person's knowledge or viewpoint makes sense in some cases, yes, but not all the time. Like: Why would my character ask Hermaeus Mora about Apocrypha to test his knowledge about his own realm? Or Leramil, after Hermaeus Mora has already confirmed their connection?

Dr_Con wrote: »

Leramil is over a hundred years old and is self-aware of how she sounds to the lay person.

To me she sounds normal, to be honest, while some other characters sound weirdly... unrefined, although they're supposed to be highly educated people.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · June 2023

Syldras wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

This is why I've not bought chapters at release since Elsweyr. I wait for big sales, because the writing we see is not worth full price. I hope every year it and lore implementation will get better, but so far it doesn't.

Oh, I wouldn't say the chapter was badly written in general (from what I've seen so far). No stupid innuendo or flirting yet, and many lines from Leramil and Hermaeus Mora are actually appropriately worded, as you'd expect from the character types they represent. There are some nice metaphors and pictorial descriptions, too. Also, the lorebooks I've come across so far were interesting (although they bear a different problem: typos. Not sure if it's just my localization, but there's typos everywhere! Like the Aldmer originating from "Almeris" or Camonnaruhn spelled "Camonnarhun" - it's weird, I've rarely seen typos in the previous chapters and now there's 1 or 2 in almost every lorebook, and some dialogues have them too).

I include the dialogue options in my "writing" point. Which as your post says, leaves much to be desired.

Why is there so few roleplaying dialogue options nowadays. They don't have to make any big impact, they can just be the illusion of choice, but at least they will feel better.

LannStone · June 2023

I'm almost through Necrom.
I've noticed there are options for the NPC to recap, but you can skip them.
That's an improvement over previous recent chapters where you had to click through the recaps to proceeed.
I get the OP's point that the dialogue can certainly be improved - too bad it's not on the same level as the art.
But is dialogue in itself really a reason not to even play the chapter?
Hard to believe.

ADarklore · June 2023

Here is what I'd like... once we select a dialogue option, MAKE IT GO AWAY. What happens is I try to skip through the dialogue but keep getting the same dialogue options again, and again... and again... and thinking I hadn't asked that particular one, end up repeating it. I've found once in Necrom, that if you don't go through ALL lines of dialogue with a certain NPC, the quest doesn't continue. So I'd have to go back into the dialogue and make sure I followed each line, so make sure I responded to ALL their dialogue, before the dialogue window would auto-close and the quest would advance.

Also, people talking about 'the vestige' being dumb because of stolen soul, but that doesn't explain this same ignorance AFTER we get our soul back. We are no longer the 'vestige' at that point, as we are once again whole.

emilyhyoyeon · June 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Why is there so few roleplaying dialogue options nowadays. They don't have to make any big impact, they can just be the illusion of choice, but at least they will feel better.

I feel the same way.

I haven't done much of the new stuff yet aside from delve quests but I did do Sharp-as-Night's quests and there were a couple times throughout them where you could pick a personal response. I didn't do something like drop the quest and redo it to see both responses, but it sounded like from those that my character chose that he responds differently to each.

I don't think it changes the quest events or anything, but the unique response is nice.

Frogmother · June 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Why is there so few roleplaying dialogue options nowadays. They don't have to make any big impact, they can just be the illusion of choice, but at least they will feel better.

Because they require less effort and people still buy the expansion.

Michae · June 2023

I'm way behind on quest content, I'm at Elsweyr chapter right now, but yes, it always struck me how clueless the Vestige really is. Even in the base game questline you can ask the same mundane, uninformed questions over and over again, in every zone, and nobody seems to by phased by that. I like to think that the Vestige is just this force of nature type of character that just stumbles through every questline without any clue or care on what's going on. Something akin to Doomguy in Doom 2016, or Gordon Freeman depicted in Freeman's Mind series. The Vestige just wants to kill monsters, loot chests, and maybe fish (and shop in Ikea), everything else is just a background noise.

Also the plots really have one setting. Some cult is trying to use some artifact (or a living god

) to their nefarious ends, and you have to get the artifact before them. You ultimately fail to stop them, the artifact gets activated and you have to set everything back the right way. Seen it many times in base game, and in both chapters I played (Morrowind and Summerset), accompanied with their respectable dlcs (Clockwork City and Murkmire).

Edit: Typos.

SpacemanSpiff1 · June 2023

i rolled low INT, so I appreciate the writing.

Mithgil · June 2023

I gotta say that I do enjoy the NPC dialogue in the game, with the glaring exception of the responses written for the player-characters. As the OP indicates it's as if we have zero imagination and are utterly horrid at listening to what we've just been told for a quest. I don't mind the recap dialogue options as you don't need to go through those 99% of the time to finish accepting or turning in a quest.

The writers seemed to have given no thought or imagination to "our" dialogue when responding. I wholeheartedly agree it makes us seem like complete idiots.

Umbranox · June 2023

As a game dev I understand that budget constraints greatly influence the number of options. But if the options have to be so limited in number, they should indeed be a bit more general to fit a variety of characters.

Aka_ · June 2023

I would like to see this addressed or at least considered in the future. We have to remember, too, that we are the outliers when it comes to our passion for the game since we take the time to also post on forums. The vast majority of players may not even feel this way. But I would like to feel rewarded for being invested in the lore of this franchise and my character does not help me play that way.

AcadianPaladin · June 2023

Having quested with Naryu numerous times in other zones, my elf encountered her again in the new chapter during a quest. We didn't mind the dialogue question "What's a Morag Tong Writ?"; what we minded is being forced to ask that stupid basic question in order to advance the quest. When that happens, my response is to speed click through it all and go to only what the quest tells me to do. Somehow, I don't expect that is the intent of the quest writers. If questions that are insultingly silly to experience questers are in the options for newer players, just please don't make them necessary to ask in order to advance the quest.

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2023

To be fair, this is and has always been a thing in Elder Scrolls games, mainline BGS games or otherwise. Quests have always been really inconsistent with whether or not your character is informed about the world they live in.

My personal pet peeve is the Whispering Door quest in Skyrim, where your character is forced to ask Mephala who she is, even if you're RPing as a Dark Elf that worships the Reclamations.

Syldras · June 2023

Another thing that slightly annoys me, is plot aspects being presented as secret and surprising while they're more than obvious to everyone who knows at least a tiny bit of the lore. Like,

there's a ship that brought some kind of plague to Necrom and it's rumoured to be cultists who were aboard - which Daedric lord might they worship?! It's even sillier taking into account that it is known that the Q1 dungeons are related to the main story, and that one of them was openly announced as being about Peryite cultists.

ArchMikem · June 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

"Wait Vestige! Before we open this door and continue into the ruin on this quest we've been on for the past half hour, I REALLY think I need to remind you of everything you just did and why you did it. Nope, sorry you can't open that door until you hear me out."

And the Vestige,

barney2525 · June 2023

still not clear on this whole Sai Sahan / Amulet of kings thing. Not enough explanations of what happened.

richo262 · June 2023

Syldras wrote: »

Due to being busy irl, I haven't seen much of the new chapter yet, I have to admit. But one thing that - again - caught my attention so far, is that, by default, our character seems to be considered an idiot dumb uninformed about the world and not quite capable of understanding more complex concepts. To word it in a friendly way.

I know it has been adressed again and again over the years, and maybe it has improved a bit, but there are still dialogue options that seem silly for an inhabitant of Tamriel. Of course players new to TES lore should be able to ask about Daedric Princes, the Planes of Oblivion and all that, but why can't it be implemented in a lore-friendly way, without making the character seem totally ignorant about the world they've been living in for decades or even centuries? It would be so easy to avoid it through clever and more vague wording. Why do we, for example, have to ask Leramil "Who is Hermaeus Mora?" when it could be instead easily neutrally worded as something along the lines of "So you've been working for Hermaeus Mora for a long time now. What insights do you have about him"?

While we're at it: Why does Leramil always have to cut off her explanations in mid-sentence, with a tone of "That's too difficult for you to understand anyway"? My main is a Telvanni mage and a scholar who has dealt with even more complex concepts in the past, not a Breton beet farmer. Nothing wrong with playing a Breton beet farmer, of course, just don't assume that was the only type of character to play.

Another example, a random encounter on Telvanni Peninsula that I had just this evening: Two Dunmer on a pilgrimage to Necrom, one female, one male (I can't remember their names, I'm sorry). The man has handmade gifts for his ancestors, the woman just bought random stuff at a shop. So we are given two dialogue options at a point: Either just agree with her, or tell him (at least that's the case in the German translation) "So you act as if your ancestors had any preferences" - why would a Dunmer character say that?! There's no way to simply agree with him that thoughtful handcrafted gifts are indeed a more appropriate offering. Althought that's probably what most Dunmer would agree on (let alone that doubting that the spirits of ancestors have likes, dislikes and wishes seems very weird for a Dunmer character in general - characters from other cultures might not understand that, but someone native to Dunmer culture where ancestral veneration is a very important, central part, would have to know - even from lived experience).

Very well. End of rant.

You wait till the Consortium of Breton Beet farmers hears about this. Outrageous.

Lugaldu · June 2023

barney2525 wrote: »

still not clear on this whole Sai Sahan / Amulet of kings thing. Not enough explanations of what happened.

Who is Sai Sahan? Amulet of kings, huh?

Carcamongus · June 2023

I'm talking to a Telvanni magister about some secret research. What do I do? I ask him if he can tell me about the secret research. What he's working on isn't even important to the quest. I apparently expect a high-ranking member of House Telvanni to tell me about his secret research, despite it being explicitly labelled as secret, just because, I don't know, I asked nicely? I'm cute as an alit's posterior? I don't smell funny that day?

This is the person they hired to save the world?

chuck-18_ESO · June 2023

I found the dialogue with Leramil to be particularly irritating; she kept trying to over-explain and then stopping, presumably because my character is too dense to follow, despite the fact that I am a fellow Arcanist. I actually chose to roll through the main story on my Arcanist instead of my main first because I was sure Leramil would have some unique dialogue for me. Talk about disappointing!

pklemming · June 2023

Life is so much easier, if you use my playstyle.

You spam E on any dialog, then run off to kill things. I hear that NPCs have stuff to say, but it honestly gets in the way of killing things.

Hvíthákarl · June 2023

A lot of y'all need to understand you're sharing this game with ppl not so familiar with weird fantasy as you or me. Meaning, they should have the chance to enjoy ESO without having to google stuff every 30 seconds. If anything, they should polish a lot of super vague dialogues that confuse the hell out of new players.

That said, I'd like if they added several dialogue options and marked them so you clearly know tell apart the "I just bought the game and never picked up a fantasy book, please be gentle with me" option and the "I literally wrote a 600 page essay on Mysticism, give it all" one.

CoolBlast3 · June 2023

The Necrom dialogue is a bit better. The only times I recall playing truly stupid is asking Herma Mora "what" he is- though that can be interpreted is "I know you're a Prince but what are you, truly" which gives me eldritch being vibes and that's cool. And in a sidequest where an NPC literally calls you "The Savior of the Clockwork City!" if you've done the DLC but then you can immediately ask what the Clockwork City is.

Besides that, dialogue is mostly fine. Leramiil is just an ass lmao. What pisses me off again is the lack of Vestige-specific stuff.

"you're a mortal, you can't reform like us daedra can!" with no opportunity to correct (even if he wouldn't believe us, it'd be nice)

And the biggest insult to me is the Numinous Grimmoire quest, a quest about a mad mage who wants to perform the Numinous Rite, a ritual which would make them immortal as long as they continued to feed on the souls of others. Kind of like how the Vestige eats soul gems to revive. And NUMINOUS was the alpha name for The Vestige. This is literally recycled Vestige content and we can't comment on it bc I guess we're so stupid we don't recognize the similarities.