Why are we forced to play dumb? (Dialogue options. Again.)

Syldras

Kingpindragon wrote: »

I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I appreciate all the dialog, even the 'unimportant' dynamic (optional) dialog of the Quest's Follower NPCs, if you decided interact with them. I'd rather have all of that than reading some quest board.

Well, I do too. Stories and lore are the reasons I'm playing this game. That's exactly why I'm bothered by badly written dialogues.

Kingpindragon wrote: »

I have a friend that only plays a few times a month, and sometimes ends mid-quest chain, so they enjoy recaps.

Optional recaps are fine, but there are quests where the quest objective is literally repeated 3 or 4 times in a row by the quest npc:
NPC: You have to do xy now.
PC: asks for more detailed explanation/purpose
NPC: gives explanation Now, do xy!
PC: I will, see you later.
NPC: Okay, remember to do xy, will you!

barney2525

I think we need a poster in every major city with pictures of characters who got caught pickpocketing/stealing/murdering. And when they go into a city where their picture is up, there is always a guard a medium distance away following them around.

Varana

I can understand that the romance may be odd because intellectually, the two characters don't seem to be on the same page, or even read the same book. And I agree that the guy was written in a somewhat incongruous way - his status and his dialogue didn't really fit together, unless I misunderstood his background.
But that's it.

Does the relationship serve a purpose in terms of plot? No.
Does it have to? No.
Does it add something to the characters? Yes.
Maybe not what I was expecting, or what I would've found obvious, but that's fine. Romance is not inherently logical, and treating it as such, or simply as plot device and otherwise superfluous, is also bad writing, imho. It creates an artificial feel - these people "have to" be attracted to each other because of a plot point later in the story; if there are no plot points to be built upon it, no romance will happen? Nah.

Syldras

Varana wrote: »

Romance is not inherently logical, and treating it as such, or simply as plot device and otherwise superfluous, is also bad writing, imho. It creates an artificial feel

Romance might not always be "logical", but from my observations (talking about real life), it doesn't happen completely randomly either. Otherwise anyone could just date anyone, but that's not how it works, there are aspects that cause attraction between people. And when it comes to that, I don't find ESO's narrations convincing.

I mean, if I recap ESO's romance quests I've seen so far, it's mostly either some woman swooning over some shirtless buff guy she's just met (which seems to be enough to consider someone the love of one's life and to be willing to give up everything for him, or so) - and in cases where the male npc involved isn't the beefcake type, there's no explanation given at all (or it's even some magical artifact messing people's minds up, or the whole thing seems completely random).

That's silly. I mean, people are different of course, and I'm sure there are people who only care for looks and nothing else, but is it so outlandish to imagine that people are actually attracted to each other because of shared interests, beliefs or actual character traits? I for one might notice if someone looks interesting, but if that person's inner values aren't able to keep my attention, then my interest is gone. Immediately. And I'm very, very sure that there are many people who feel like this.

As it's late at night here and I feel like bothering this forum with a personal rl example now (and making my poor partner blush - I know he'll read this tomorrow, even if he doesn't reply publicly ), take this corny story - if you don't care, just skip this paragraph: We first met here at the forums (it was a discussion about slavery in Morrowind, btw, where I caught his attention - or he caught mine, hard to say) and when we finally decided to meet irl for the first time, as friends, I suggested an old, partially ruined and slightly overgrown cemetery as our venue. Might sound unusual, but I'm a historian with a special interest for sepulchral culture (basically burial and memorial traditions; the fascination began when I started examining my hometown's 220+ cemeteries when I was 15 - but that's a different story), so it might be a little less weird - or maybe not. Anyway, we were walking that old cemetery and it was such a joy to watch my friend exploring the place, closely examining the old tombs, trying to get a glimpse through every window of the old, abandoned burial vaults - that curiosity, that sense of exploration, that love for the past! All those things that many people lack, or - for whatever reason - sadly lose when they grow up... At some point, I was watching him more than I paid attention to our surroundings, and I had only one thought: He's perfect. So, yeah. I found him interesting before, but this was the situation that made me fall in love with him. Simple.

Back to ESO: Why don't we see Leramil and Gadayn interacting in a way that makes their attraction believable? Why do they only state they like each other, but there's nothing that actually shows it? Why don't we see them exploring something together, why don't we walk in on them having a spirited discussion about some book or some arcane concept, enjoying the conversation, or even just laughing together? It's not just one short quest after all, but a whole long questline with plenty of time to build up their relationship.

It's weird, really, seeing how much attention to detail there is in level design (just enjoying the beautifully cluttered Telvanni towers and the prehistoric, primordial ocean theme in Apocrypha, with all those huge ammonites and "plants" that remind of fossilized crinoids - it fits really well, also symbolically, very well done!), but the writing is often so awfully shallow in comparison.

Elsonso

Syldras wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Romance is not inherently logical, and treating it as such, or simply as plot device and otherwise superfluous, is also bad writing, imho. It creates an artificial feel

Romance might not always be "logical", but from my observations (talking about real life), it doesn't happen completely randomly either. Otherwise anyone could just date anyone, but that's not how it works, there are aspects that cause attraction between people. And when it comes to that, I don't find ESO's narrations convincing.

I mean, if I recap ESO's romance quests I've seen so far, it's mostly either some woman swooning over some shirtless buff guy she's just met (which seems to be enough to consider someone the love of one's life and to be willing to give up everything for him, or so) - and in cases where the male npc involved isn't the beefcake type, there's no explanation given at all (or it's even some magical artifact messing people's minds up, or the whole thing seems completely random).

That's silly. I mean, people are different of course, and I'm sure there are people who only care for looks and nothing else, but is it so outlandish to imagine that people are actually attracted to each other because of shared interests, beliefs or actual character traits? I for one might notice if someone looks interesting, but if that person's inner values aren't able to keep my attention, then my interest is gone. Immediately. And I'm very, very sure that there are many people who feel like this.

As it's late at night here and I feel like bothering this forum with a personal rl example now (and making my poor partner blush - I know he'll read this tomorrow, even if he doesn't reply publicly ), take this corny story - if you don't care, just skip this paragraph: We first met here at the forums (it was a discussion about slavery in Morrowind, btw, where I caught his attention - or he caught mine, hard to say) and when we finally decided to meet irl for the first time, as friends, I suggested an old, partially ruined and slightly overgrown cemetery as our venue. Might sound unusual, but I'm a historian with a special interest for sepulchral culture (basically burial and memorial traditions; the fascination began when I started examining my hometown's 220+ cemeteries when I was 15 - but that's a different story), so it might be a little less weird - or maybe not. Anyway, we were walking that old cemetery and it was such a joy to watch my friend exploring the place, closely examining the old tombs, trying to get a glimpse through every window of the old, abandoned burial vaults - that curiosity, that sense of exploration, that love for the past! All those things that many people lack, or - for whatever reason - sadly lose when they grow up... At some point, I was watching him more than I paid attention to our surroundings, and I had only one thought: He's perfect. So, yeah. I found him interesting before, but this was the situation that made me fall in love with him. Simple.

Back to ESO: Why don't we see Leramil and Gadayn interacting in a way that makes their attraction believable? Why do they only state they like each other, but there's nothing that actually shows it? Why don't we see them exploring something together, why don't we walk in on them having a spirited discussion about some book or some arcane concept, enjoying the conversation, or even just laughing together? It's not just one short quest after all, but a whole long questline with plenty of time to build up their relationship.

It's weird, really, seeing how much attention to detail there is in level design (just enjoying the beautifully cluttered Telvanni towers and the prehistoric, primordial ocean theme in Apocrypha, with all those huge ammonites and "plants" that remind of fossilized crinoids - it fits really well, also symbolically, very well done!), but the writing is often so awfully shallow in comparison.

It is possible that you have just put more thought into this than the writers did... It probably happened like this...

"Hey Bob, I need something extra for Leramil"

"Add a romance."

"Hmm. I can work with that. With who?"

"Jakarn?"

"Really? Him again?"

"Fine... Gadayn, then"

"Who?"

Syldras

Elsonso wrote: »

It is possible that you have just put more thought into this than the writers did... It probably happened like this...

"Hey Bob, I need something extra for Leramil"

"Add a romance."

"Hmm. I can work with that. With who?"

"Jakarn?"

"Really? Him again?"

"Fine... Gadayn, then"

"Who?"

I wish they had chosen Hermaeus Mora over Gadayn at least

coftysweet

Dreaders123 wrote: »

There is some weak dialogue for sure, but overall I get it and it doesn't bother me. I thought we were going to be talking about..

You: I've learned there is a plot on the Queen's life
Chief Guard: What, er, it's probably fine
You: They are going to use poison
Chief Guard: Well, umm, I'm the only one who has access to the poison so, er, dont worry
You: They have a senior role in the guard unit
Chief Guard: Well I'm the most senior as I have to protect my target...my Queen, I mean my Queen
You: The Queen is all alone and whoever is going to do it is going to go see her right now
Chief Guard: I'm just on my way to see her...tell you what, I saw a maid with a broom. That's odd right? Why dont you go interrogate her and I'll just go ki...kiiiick back with the Queen
You: A maid with a broom? That does sound suspicious! I'll meet you later!

This! Every. Single. Time.
I can just ignore dialogue options about "Who is Hermeus?" "What are Telvanni" "Why am I?"
But I cannot change a quest where the evil guy is so obvious, even the Beton Beet Farmer would have gotten suspicious, by acting like a logical thinking person.

As if the game is telling me: "The Queen has to die and you are going to watch it!"
😭

mb10

There are also a lot of NPCs that make stupid jokes or untelligent comments in the wrong environments.
It takes away from the whole immersion, i dont understand why whoever is writing this stuff thinks its a good idea?

Kendaric

mb10 wrote: »

There are also a lot of NPCs that make stupid jokes or untelligent comments in the wrong environments.
It takes away from the whole immersion, i dont understand why whoever is writing this stuff thinks its a good idea?

Not to mention NPCs in Solitude mentioning how you saved the Skald-king or similiar generic Nord comments that are appropriate for Eastern Skyrim but not in Western Skyrim.
It makes absolutely no sense.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

mb10 wrote: »

There are also a lot of NPCs that make stupid jokes or untelligent comments in the wrong environments.
It takes away from the whole immersion, i dont understand why whoever is writing this stuff thinks its a good idea?

One thing that made me dislike Eveli even more in Deadlands. She was making jokes, quips and being so damn cheerful constantly, while people where being murdered, and the Lord of Destruction was trying to invade. But that was an issue of everyone there, not just her, even Dagon does a "muahahaha" laugh at one point (even the subtitles say that), but because she's almost constantly with you, it's more grating with her. At no point did things feel threatning or dangerous, just dumb and annoying at several points. Then of course it's the book, which is fine and not an issue, even though it clearly is, and anyone could deem it's dangerous, probably daedric. While someone with the knowledge can be sure it's the Mysterium Xarxes.
But of course, you can't say or do anything, you just stand there like a lemon and hold the idiot ball, then pass it to the next npc.

Syldras

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

One thing that made me dislike Eveli even more in Deadlands. She was making jokes, quips and being so damn cheerful constantly, while people where being murdered, and the Lord of Destruction was trying to invade. But that was an issue of everyone there, not just her, even Dagon does a "muahahaha" laugh at one point (even the subtitles say that), but because she's almost constantly with you, it's more grating with her. At no point did things feel threatning or dangerous, just dumb and annoying at several points.

That's a problem I have with ESO in general: Things rarely feel serious or even dangerous. I have often wondered how much of it is due to necessary MMO mechanisms (both player character and npcs easily respawning - someone dying, even by murder, has no consequences most of the time except for some story quests) and how much due to writing. Although I found Morrowind and Summerset tragic and gloomy at some points. Later chapters - not so much...

I also don't really feel this chapter's "cosmic horror" theme, or horror in general, so far. That "Rappaccini's Daughter" copycat quest I mentioned was a bit eerie, but other than that... Maybe it's because uncanniness is built by subtle hints and, well, I'm not sure if ESO's writing team understands subtlety.

Syldras

I know that might sound harsh, but sometimes, the writing doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure how many people are working on one quest, but overview (or lore competence) might be lacking sometimes?

Just played a quest where we have to enter a Telvanni council meeting. Beforehand, we are told that we bear the mark of Hermaeus Mora, so the Telvanni won't let us in (for whatever reason). Friendly Telvanni guy helps us by instructing us to create an enchanted robe that hides Mora's mark. If we put that robe on, it's clearly visible that it's this thing:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Telvanni_Wizard-Lord_Robe
The Telvanni Wizard-Lord Robe. So we create this robe, and next we are told, that to gain access to the Telvanni meeting we have to pretend to be a "Keeper of the Dead" from the Tribunal Temple, because everyone knows we are no Telvanni, but temple servants are accepted to meetings too. But no one will wonder why we're wearing a Telvanni Wizard-Lord Robe (and feel offended by that)?! I mean, we even have a Temple npc sidekick, why didn't they include a bit into the story where we get a robe from him (that we later enchant)? Would make much more sense.

Treselegant

Syldras wrote: »

I know that might sound harsh, but sometimes, the writing doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure how many people are working on one quest, but overview (or lore competence) might be lacking sometimes?

I think there is a real problem with what appears to be first draft type stories being put into the game without someone running a critical eye over them. A bit of direction, editing and a bit of common sense would fix a lot of quests. It's disheatening to consider but there does seem a large hole where supervision should be.

Syldras

Treselegant wrote: »

I think there is a real problem with what appears to be first draft type stories being put into the game without someone running a critical eye over them. A bit of direction, editing and a bit of common sense would fix a lot of quests. It's disheatening to consider but there does seem a large hole where supervision should be.

Saddest thing is, in many cases, it could easily be avoided. Many things are simple logic mistakes, no need for specialists who know the most obscure bits of lore (What's the lore team doing, btw? Shouldn't they doublecheck everything on lore consistency?).

cyclonus11

Dialogue option as an Argonian:

"What is the Hist?"

*hits Escape key*
*abandons quest*

Elsonso

.

Treselegant wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I know that might sound harsh, but sometimes, the writing doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure how many people are working on one quest, but overview (or lore competence) might be lacking sometimes?

I think there is a real problem with what appears to be first draft type stories being put into the game without someone running a critical eye over them. A bit of direction, editing and a bit of common sense would fix a lot of quests. It's disheatening to consider but there does seem a large hole where supervision should be.

Another way to think about this is that these things are easy peasy parts of the writing. They don't have to give it much thought, and it is easy to include. If they think about it and rewrite these things, place limits on it, or otherwise change up the formula, then they have more work to do.

Thus, they end up with "background" things like, "what is the hist" and "what is a daedric prince" they can toss in without a second thought, and so they don't give it a second thought.

DP99

I agree that the repetitive recaps that are worded like the characters are talking down to you, or you have no memory or don't pay attention can be a bit annoying, but on the other hand, I do tend to click every dialogue option from everyone just to see if they do happen to say anything different and insightful. Most of the time they don't, but my curiosity makes it so that I can't help myself.

The responses given and the questions asked could be better, I guess, but it is what it is.

I like to think that my wood elf is a bit dim though, because if you really think about it, what kind of person really has a job like "adventurer" when they couldn't get a real job like a merchant or something, and they just go about life wandering around doing odd jobs, and getting involved in all sorts of illegal activities with organizations like the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, and basically just stumbles into being a "hero" that just happens to save the day when seemingly more competent people can't do their jobs!

Also, what kind of intelligent person, gets themselves kidnapped, sacrificed and loses their soul?

I blame the lack of vegetables in her diet.

Or, maybe she just fell out of a tree as a baby.

Syldras

DP99 wrote: »

Also, what kind of intelligent person, gets themselves kidnapped, sacrificed and loses their soul?

Oh, there are many valid reasons to lose your soul. Like curiosity. Or boredom.

Or Tamriel is a big theme park, with some funny cultists here, a few "werewolves" there, oh, look, there's a weird hooded guy advertising some mysterious mystical attraction, maybe I should try this - as The Shivering Isles are currently out of service and The Fields Of Regret still under construction...

Aztrias

Syldras

I seem to have reached the big finale of the main quest now; at least it's that time of the year again where all sidequest npcs of the new map(s) meet in one spot - for whatever reason. It's not even a party this time.

I still have a few side quests missing in Apocrypha, but Telvanni Peninsula is cleared, main quest almost finished. No stupid innuendo this time (so far). Not sure if I like or dislike the fact that we've got npc "companions" from all factions (Telvanni, Tribunal Temple, Hermaeus Mora ally, Daedric) - it's nice to have different factions included, but then again, it feels unnatural, too constructed, and their views on things don't even differ much (which seems like a missed opportunity to me).

Btw, Divayth Fyr is still missing (you can't tell me he hasn't any business to do in Apocrypha!). And while we're at it: Where's the deep-dive into Dunmer religion and burial rites they promised in the announcement stream? And shouldn't there be something about Gulga Mor Jil?

Lore Team was too busy creating another Tarhiel...
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tarhiel_Farano
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Tarhiel
...and including new enemies that look like Slenderman?

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Syldras wrote: »

I seem to have reached the big finale of the main quest now; at least it's that time of the year again where all sidequest npcs of the new map(s) meet in one spot - for whatever reason. It's not even a party this time.

I still have a few side quests missing in Apocrypha, but Telvanni Peninsula is cleared, main quest almost finished. No stupid innuendo this time (so far). Not sure if I like or dislike the fact that we've got npc "companions" from all factions (Telvanni, Tribunal Temple, Hermaeus Mora ally, Daedric) - it's nice to have different factions included, but then again, it feels unnatural, too constructed, and their views on things don't even differ much (which seems like a missed opportunity to me).

Btw, Divayth Fyr is still missing (you can't tell me he hasn't any business to do in Apocrypha!). And while we're at it: Where's the deep-dive into Dunmer religion and burial rites they promised in the announcement stream? And shouldn't there be something about Gulga Mor Jil?

Lore Team was too busy creating another Tarhiel...
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tarhiel_Farano
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Tarhiel
...and including new enemies that look like Slenderman?

It's really starting to sound as a slightly better Blackwood/High Isle. Better in some parts, but still fails utterly at the whole showing and adding to the culture and lore of the people living in the area. Instead they focus on some odd niché thing, like daedra or druids, which still feels kinda meh.

Syldras

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

It's really starting to sound as a slightly better Blackwood/High Isle. Better in some parts, but still fails utterly at the whole showing and adding to the culture and lore of the people living in the area. Instead they focus on some odd niché thing, like daedra or druids, which still feels kinda meh.

Yes, that's exactly my impression. I mean, there are a few lore additions, so maybe I shouldn't complain too much - after last year's disastrous chapter... Among other things (I'm sure I've forgotten something...) here's a bit on St Vorys, Great House Telvanni's patron saint (although his story could be a bit more creative, it's cliché in a way), there are mentions of Miraak (although the name "Miraak" isn't used, only his epithet "The First Servant"), there's a bit

Thaddaeus Cosma

, we finally meet Morian Zenas, and there's one big new lore aspect within the main quest that I won't mention here - one could argue if that addition makes sense or not, from an artistic perspective. But I also see missed opportunities, especially regarding the city of Necrom itself, the Temple (which might have included House Indoril) and Dunmeri culture as a whole.

There's a bit about Telvanni ranks and customs, House intrigues, but it's not more than a short overview, I'd say. And it's mostly in lorebooks.

Sotha Sil quest was nice, although more like "bolstering" his character, affirming what we already know, instead of giving deep new insights.

Biggest improvement this chapter, or at least what caught my attention regularly, is the language, to be honest. It's a bit more sophisticated. Or should I say: Not as awfully stupid as last year?

Syldras

Ah, yes, and the whole "vampire mercenaries" thing seemed quite random too (unless there's still more on that, but I don't think so, as the main quest is almost over). Maybe it's just a hint on the fact that Telvanni, other than other Dunmer, neither fear nor shun vampires (in TES3, House Telvanni was the only faction you could still interact with as a vampire character, other npcs either refused conversation or attacked on sight), but the whole thing seemed very superficial, unfortunately.

Kikazaru

This man acknowledge our dumb questions.

Syldras

I know I'm slightly repeating myself, but I think I came across the worst quest today (so far - currently doing the few missing side quests, so all quests npcs will we present at the usual final meeting)... I mean, honestly.

The whole topic of the quest is basically that there's a traitor or infiltrator at that place, and the big central question (treated as an exciting mystery) is: Is that person worshipping another Daedric Prince, and if so, whom? Very close to the beginning of that quest we find - oh, how surprising - an amulet showing a dragon. Even on the quest item's miniature pic it's clearly visible that it's the symbol of Peryite. A few minutes later, we find a sickly glowing sculpture of a Skeever. Well, of course it's totally unclear what it's all about, right? ... There's literally no dialogue option to say anything. We have to watch the other npcs being completely clueless for the whole quest. 20 to 30 minutes of ignorance - and boredom, as the "surprising""reveal" that it's a Peryite worshipper is the big conclusion of the story. Well, surprise, eh? That was almost painful.

If someone has no clue at all who Peryite is, then this quest might be fine. As an introduction to the whole chapter's story, I'd find it acceptable. But it's placed in a part of Apocrypha where the player will probably end up after already having completed a bigger part of the main quest. So the quest's conclusion won't be surprising to anyone - unless you've skipped all dialogue to that point and don't care for stories and lore at all, but then this quest won't be of interest either, so, who is this story designed for?

danno8

Found this while doing the Dark Brotherhood quests today. Thought it was funny to see even ZoS poking fun at the banality of the Vestige.

For better context the NPC is pondering the "interesting questions" of the newcomer (you) and has decided to write some of your question down in his journal, which you find after he is killed.

Oh and *****Dark Brotherhood Spoiler Alert Below*****

roqueforty

Because the writing peaked at Summerset.

Rebirthment

danno8 wrote: »

Found this while doing the Dark Brotherhood quests today. Thought it was funny to see even ZoS poking fun at the banality of the Vestige.

For better context the NPC is pondering the "interesting questions" of the newcomer (you) and has decided to write some of your question down in his journal, which you find after he is killed.

"What do you need me to do?" "I could have been inappropriate here."

NotaDaedraWorshipper

danno8 wrote: »

Found this while doing the Dark Brotherhood quests today. Thought it was funny to see even ZoS poking fun at the banality of the Vestige.

For better context the NPC is pondering the "interesting questions" of the newcomer (you) and has decided to write some of your question down in his journal, which you find after he is killed.

I often find these and the snarky replies the Vestige gets to forced questions adding to the frustration than being funny. They are making us ask and behave like this, not us by choice. Very "Ha ha, look we're making the Vestige look dumb, with just as dumb dialogue and now mock you for it."

WhiteCoatSyndrome

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I often find these and the snarky replies the Vestige gets to forced questions adding to the frustration than being funny. They are making us ask and behave like this, not us by choice. Very "Ha ha, look we're making the Vestige look dumb, with just as dumb dialogue and now mock you for it."

I would like to extend this to the variations of “Why are you still here?!” on the initial acceptance of various quests. Dear sir or madam: I am still here because the quest doesn’t actually give me the option to leave the conversation prior to this point and still accept the quest.