Why are we forced to play dumb? (Dialogue options. Again.)

Syldras · June 2023

Due to being busy irl, I haven't seen much of the new chapter yet, I have to admit. But one thing that - again - caught my attention so far, is that, by default, our character seems to be considered an idiot dumb uninformed about the world and not quite capable of understanding more complex concepts. To word it in a friendly way.

I know it has been adressed again and again over the years, and maybe it has improved a bit, but there are still dialogue options that seem silly for an inhabitant of Tamriel. Of course players new to TES lore should be able to ask about Daedric Princes, the Planes of Oblivion and all that, but why can't it be implemented in a lore-friendly way, without making the character seem totally ignorant about the world they've been living in for decades or even centuries? It would be so easy to avoid it through clever and more vague wording. Why do we, for example, have to ask Leramil "Who is Hermaeus Mora?" when it could be instead easily neutrally worded as something along the lines of "So you've been working for Hermaeus Mora for a long time now. What insights do you have about him"?

While we're at it: Why does Leramil always have to cut off her explanations in mid-sentence, with a tone of "That's too difficult for you to understand anyway"? My main is a Telvanni mage and a scholar who has dealt with even more complex concepts in the past, not a Breton beet farmer. Nothing wrong with playing a Breton beet farmer, of course, just don't assume that was the only type of character to play.

Another example, a random encounter on Telvanni Peninsula that I had just this evening: Two Dunmer on a pilgrimage to Necrom, one female, one male (I can't remember their names, I'm sorry). The man has handmade gifts for his ancestors, the woman just bought random stuff at a shop. So we are given two dialogue options at a point: Either just agree with her, or tell him (at least that's the case in the German translation) "So you act as if your ancestors had any preferences" - why would a Dunmer character say that?! There's no way to simply agree with him that thoughtful handcrafted gifts are indeed a more appropriate offering. Althought that's probably what most Dunmer would agree on (let alone that doubting that the spirits of ancestors have likes, dislikes and wishes seems very weird for a Dunmer character in general - characters from other cultures might not understand that, but someone native to Dunmer culture where ancestral veneration is a very important, central part, would have to know - even from lived experience).

Very well. End of rant.

Frogmother · June 2023

That's what I feared and also why I have not bought the add-on.

I can only hope that the decision to have such dialogues has been forced on the writers, otherwise it would mean that they have not improved a bit for years now.

Once again zen took the laziest dialogue structure option. At least they are consistent at keeping the vestige dumb in the game.

merpins · June 2023

Just gotta remember that the vestige is dumb as bricks, canonically. I headcanon it as when our soul was taken by mannimarco, he also lobotomized us. So I can play a powerful Telvanni wizard, it's just that I was that before becoming the vestige. Now I am a carrot with a vocabulary.

Grandchamp1989 · June 2023

Literally just logged in just to give you an insightful OP.

I really like your example of re-wording some of it.

For me personly (and the misses) the amount of dialogue thrown at you in recent chapters can also be a bit overwhelming. It can break the flow of playing when some dialogue feels longer than doings the tasks. Sometimes it feels like I'm just standing there waiting for them to finish their dialogue, hoping for some new piece of knowledge but instead being offered a lot of what I consider "filler" dialogue.

This is all just my opinion of course and I respect that other people may have a different experience.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · June 2023

This is why I've not bought chapters at release since Elsweyr. I wait for big sales, because the writing we see is not worth full price. I hope every year it and lore implementation will get better, but so far it doesn't.

Also, now I kinda want to make a breton beet farmer. Would make the dumb and ignorant dialogue more in character, and whenever npcs does the immature innuendos and cringy flirting, I can excuse it as they think my character is approving because of blushing when in truth it's just colouration from all those tasty beets.

Tenthirty2 · June 2023

Couldn't agree more.
Not all the dialogue is bad of course and there are moments of brilliance. But there is a larger majority of dialogue like OP describes that's just eye-squintingly bad.

I have to believe that it's written that way on purpose bcuz the game content needs to cater to a WIDE audience variety.
Then again, I wrote that sentence thinking that yeah there are some very young kids who play.
But now that I think on it I bet most kids would even be like "Wait? Why do I have to talk so dumb??"

Even NPCs talking to each other have some fairly ridiculous statements, for example:

In W. Skyrim, Morthal.
It's an intro to a side quest, two Nord women are talking about a 3rd guy who is traumatized:

Eirann: "Wolves of ice and bone attacked Brun, my lady! And he saw ghosts!"
Lady Ninetha: "Ghosts? Nonsense. Get him to the inn and I'll do what I can."

Ok, what.
Excuse me ma'am, have you taken 2 steps out of Morthal... EVER??
Your land is littered with UNDEAD, they're more common than birds. I accidentally ran over two with my wolf on the way here.
And ghosts? They're everywhere!
Walk to another town? Ghosts.
Go fishing by the stream? Ghosts.
Go into your cellar? More ghosts.
Under your bed? Yup, ghosts.
Open a cupboard, ok well that's just some old chicken meat.
But open the toilet lid? GHOSTS.

That great mead hall in the sky must be pretty dang lonely because all the dead are still shuffling around your vegetable gardens.
You don't even have to be some well-traveled world-class adventurer to know these things. Just throw a stone, in any direction, you'll hit one guaranteed. Just listen for the groan.

And nearly every commoner you talk to with an arrow floating above their head is complaining about some variation of evil people who are conspiring with a powerful daedric prince came into their small town and stole everyone or turned them all into zombies or just plain disintegrated them all.

There are entire guilds devoted to magic, races that are imbued with it, places where these people can literally go and talk to their dead ancestors.

And that lady wants to pish posh about ghosts...

The extraordinary in Nirn is ordinary, so nothing should really surprise anyone.
And the things that should be considered ordinary would be horrifying.
But it's like the story writers won't or can't figure out how to write with that in mind while still making it interesting I guess?
So they try for a bit of shock factor but anyone who has played the game longer than 5 minutes is like "Um. Yep and?"

I mean, just once I'd love to ride up to some farmer in his field like:
Me "Hello, you seem distressed and I notice an arrow floating above your head. Can I help?"

Farmer "Ah yes, traveler am I grateful you stopped. You see I was out here trying to pull weeds and-"

Me "You saw ghosts?"

Farmer "No? No ghosts. I was-"

Me "Cultists then? Cultists stole your family? Or magic portals appeared under everyone and they dropped out of sight! No wait it's zombies! Your family turned into zombies and wandered off? Or..."

Farmer "NO! No cultists or zombies or magic portals! I just... needed some help pulling all these weeds."

Me "..."

Farmer "I took an arrow to the knee years ago and my leg gets terribly sore. Please? I can offer a bit of gold for your trouble?"

Me "I will help you weed."

Now THAT? That would be a terrifying quest.

KlauthWarthog · June 2023

The dialog on the recent expansions makes me believe that the Vestige lost a fight with an Illithid, and survived.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · June 2023

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.
Not all the dialogue is bad of course and there are moments of brilliance. But there is a larger majority of dialogue like OP describes that's just eye-squintingly bad.

I have to believe that it's written that way on purpose bcuz the game content needs to cater to a WIDE audience variety.
Then again, I wrote that sentence thinking that yeah there are some very young kids who play.
But now that I think on it I bet most kids would even be like "Wait? Why do I have to talk so dumb??"

Even NPCs talking to each other have some fairly ridiculous statements, for example:

In W. Skyrim, Morthal.
It's an intro to a side quest, two Nord women are talking about a 3rd guy who is traumatized:

Eirann: "Wolves of ice and bone attacked Brun, my lady! And he saw ghosts!"
Lady Ninetha: "Ghosts? Nonsense. Get him to the inn and I'll do what I can."

Ok, what.
Excuse me ma'am, have you taken 2 steps out of Morthal... EVER??
Your land is littered with UNDEAD, they're more common than birds. I accidentally ran over two with my wolf on the way here.
And ghosts? They're everywhere!
Walk to another town? Ghosts.
Go fishing by the stream? Ghosts.
Go into your cellar? More ghosts.
Under your bed? Yup, ghosts.
Open a cupboard, ok well that's just some old chicken meat.
But open the toilet lid? GHOSTS.

That great mead hall in the sky must be pretty dang lonely because all the dead are still shuffling around your vegetable gardens.
You don't even have to be some well-traveled world-class adventurer to know these things. Just throw a stone, in any direction, you'll hit one guaranteed. Just listen for the groan.

And nearly every commoner you talk to with an arrow floating above their head is complaining about some variation of evil people who are conspiring with a powerful daedric prince came into their small town and stole everyone or turned them all into zombies or just plain disintegrated them all.

There are entire guilds devoted to magic, races that are imbued with it, places where these people can literally go and talk to their dead ancestors.

And that lady wants to pish posh about ghosts...

The extraordinary in Nirn is ordinary, so nothing should really surprise anyone.
And the things that should be considered ordinary would be horrifying.
But it's like the story writers won't or can't figure out how to write with that in mind while still making it interesting I guess?
So they try for a bit of shock factor but anyone who has played the game longer than 5 minutes is like "Um. Yep and?"

I mean, just once I'd love to ride up to some farmer in his field like:
Me "Hello, you seem distressed and I notice an arrow floating above your head. Can I help?"

Farmer "Ah yes, traveler am I grateful you stopped. You see I was out here trying to pull weeds and-"

Me "You saw ghosts?"

Farmer "No? No ghosts. I was-"

Me "Cultists then? Cultists stole your family? Or magic portals appeared under everyone and they dropped out of sight! No wait it's zombies! Your family turned into zombies and wandered off? Or..."

Farmer "NO! No cultists or zombies or magic portals! I just... needed some help pulling all these weeds."

Me "..."

Farmer "I took an arrow to the knee years ago and my leg gets terribly sore. Please? I can offer a bit of gold for your trouble?"

Me "I will help you weed."

Now THAT? That would be a terrifying quest.

Even Ignobert the Beet Farmer would be more than happy to help him with his weeds. Anything to get away from all these undead, daedras and monsters he has met lately.

Enemoriana · June 2023

I also like dialogs like "let's collect all we know - and what all that means?". Damn, that was evident half storyline ago, why you are asking, Vestige!
And "what happened before and who all that people are?" several times during not very long quest line. Like optional things they are ok (useful for big breaks in doing quests), but sometimes they do not look so.
Not played Necrom yet (only collecting/checking info about companions rapport), but in previous content it was worse with each dlc.
Maybe every new Great Evil is beating hero's head too strong?..

rpa · June 2023

WoW had a lot of "interesting" tasks. For example several quests to shift trough dung. Like feeding a fell guard hound to recover keys from droppings. One particulary menial job I remember was to collect spider eggs from butts of infested bears. (The cutest pet in gaem, the Infested Bear Cub could be found nearby.) But I do not think that kind of silliness quite fits in mood of ESO.

Jamie_Aubrey · June 2023

Its for new players, you can have completed EVERY quest and you would run into someone brought back and they will have no idea who you are

danno8 · June 2023

Your characters are just perpetually confused by the plot inconsistencies caused by the One Tamriel change and all subsequent DLCs that frequently have characters you've never seen before address you as a friend and others that are your friends not really seem to give any credence to your past. Not to mention others that are dead come back to life and sometimes there are even two of the same npcs in the same place.

You'd be a confused mess too!

ArchMikem · June 2023

"Wait Vestige! Before we open this door and continue into the ruin on this quest we've been on for the past half hour, I REALLY think I need to remind you of everything you just did and why you did it. Nope, sorry you can't open that door until you hear me out."

colossalvoids · June 2023

Vestige is a struggling individual, helmet was also not well fit on top so constant blood flow disruptions and shaky environment took it's tool. Imagine ones who had /hidehelmet all the time, the damage is inevitable.

That's one of the reasons I can't take ESO stories seriously most of the times, feels more like a amusement park rather than an adventure. Especially after games with proper stories, where you should also relate on your memory or notes and not forced to play dumb too much.

Dr_Con · June 2023

Leramil is over a hundred years old and is self-aware of how she sounds to the lay person. Overly wordy explanations are not expected from someone with experience.

Additionally, there are context clues hidden throughout the dialogue, as well as recorded moments that you can find throughout the game. You may have to use your imagination to fill in any gaps you perceive.

Sarannah · June 2023

ZOS has to make the game like this, as the game is created in the real world.

Meaning players can start anywhere, with no idea what's what or who's who. So they have to act like the player is dumb.
Also, the questrecaps are there because it is an MMO. MMO's are meant to be played for a long time period, meaning players could take long breaks, or only return to a certain quest after they have completed other content. So there is the possibility of them not remembering what they were doing or what happened. Hence the recaps.

Some dialogue options are there to keep the character on track of the quests(on rails), so they don't talk about one thing and all of a sudden there is no more dialogue for that. Halting the quest. So the quest has to keep the player on track of the quest.

There also need to be stop/continue points in quests, for in-case a person crashes or logs off and misses important dialogue. This way they can repeat the missed dialogue by talking to the NPC, so they can continue where they left off without missing anything.

All of these are real world issues, solved by in-game applications. That is just the nature of MMO's. And ZOS does a great job at all this, especially with so much content in the game.

PS: Just skip dialogue you do not wish to hear, this won't negatively impact your experience in any way. As this dialogue is optional, with the few exceptions of important/main quests.

BlueRaven · June 2023

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS has to make the game like this, as the game is created in the real world.

Meaning players can start anywhere, with no idea what's what or who's who. So they have to act like the player is dumb.
Also, the questrecaps are there because it is an MMO. MMO's are meant to be played for a long time period, meaning players could take long breaks, or only return to a certain quest after they have completed other content. So there is the possibility of them not remembering what they were doing or what happened. Hence the recaps.

Some dialogue options are there to keep the character on track of the quests(on rails), so they don't talk about one thing and all of a sudden there is no more dialogue for that. Halting the quest. So the quest has to keep the player on track of the quest.

There also need to be stop/continue points in quests, for in-case a person crashes or logs off and misses important dialogue. This way they can repeat the missed dialogue by talking to the NPC, so they can continue where they left off without missing anything.

All of these are real world issues, solved by in-game applications. That is just the nature of MMO's. And ZOS does a great job at all this, especially with so much content in the game.

PS: Just skip dialogue you do not wish to hear, this won't negatively impact your experience in any way. As this dialogue is optional, with the few exceptions of important/main quests.

Basically this.

Put down the game for two months, when you come back and are trying to remember who these people are and what you are doing, you will be happy about the dialogue recaps.

Silaf · June 2023

Had the same exact feeling. My sorcerer is supposed to be an old wizard but he simply feel... dumb.
At times i was even forced to ask "who are you" to characters i just did a quest for.

Zos you are really underestimating your fans and the ones that don't remember who is Hermeus Mora simply don't care.

I don't want to feel dumb or weak when i play.
Please give some attention to old players too and let the timeline continue instead of resetting everyting in each new 3 chapter group.

Varana · June 2023

As a different POV, I think they've tried to address that sort of thing here and there in the new chapter. There are various examples where your character can just say "yeah, I know", and move on.

And more importantly - you don't have to ask Leramil who HM is. The conversation carries on without choosing that option. The only thing forcing you to "play dumb" in that instance is the overwhelming urge to grey out all dialogue options.

It's not perfect, but I think they (or at least some of the writers) are trying. There are still quite a few options like "who am I, what am I doing here, can you repeat what you've just said, but very slowly" - but you can skip those.

I_killed_Vivec · June 2023

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

Farmer "NO! No cultists or zombies or magic portals! I just... needed some help pulling all these weeds."

Me "..."

Farmer "I took an arrow to the knee years ago and my leg gets terribly sore. Please? I can offer a bit of gold for your trouble?"

Me "I will help you weed."[/i]

Top quality rant!

At least your Breton Beet Farmer (is that the new class?) won't be mistaken for a "mercenary", even if they go to High Isle... I'm sure the druids could do with a bit of help with their weeds.

Dreaders123 · June 2023

There is some weak dialogue for sure, but overall I get it and it doesn't bother me. I thought we were going to be talking about..

You: I've learned there is a plot on the Queen's life
Chief Guard: What, er, it's probably fine
You: They are going to use poison
Chief Guard: Well, umm, I'm the only one who has access to the poison so, er, dont worry
You: They have a senior role in the guard unit
Chief Guard: Well I'm the most senior as I have to protect my target...my Queen, I mean my Queen
You: The Queen is all alone and whoever is going to do it is going to go see her right now
Chief Guard: I'm just on my way to see her...tell you what, I saw a maid with a broom. That's odd right? Why dont you go interrogate her and I'll just go ki...kiiiick back with the Queen
You: A maid with a broom? That does sound suspicious! I'll meet you later!

Kendaric · June 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS has to make the game like this, as the game is created in the real world.

Meaning players can start anywhere, with no idea what's what or who's who. So they have to act like the player is dumb.
Also, the questrecaps are there because it is an MMO. MMO's are meant to be played for a long time period, meaning players could take long breaks, or only return to a certain quest after they have completed other content. So there is the possibility of them not remembering what they were doing or what happened. Hence the recaps.

Some dialogue options are there to keep the character on track of the quests(on rails), so they don't talk about one thing and all of a sudden there is no more dialogue for that. Halting the quest. So the quest has to keep the player on track of the quest.

There also need to be stop/continue points in quests, for in-case a person crashes or logs off and misses important dialogue. This way they can repeat the missed dialogue by talking to the NPC, so they can continue where they left off without missing anything.

All of these are real world issues, solved by in-game applications. That is just the nature of MMO's. And ZOS does a great job at all this, especially with so much content in the game.

PS: Just skip dialogue you do not wish to hear, this won't negatively impact your experience in any way. As this dialogue is optional, with the few exceptions of important/main quests.

Basically this.

Put down the game for two months, when you come back and are trying to remember who these people are and what you are doing, you will be happy about the dialogue recaps.

Quest recaps are ok, if they are optional. But in many cases, they are mandatory and thus evoke the impression the vestige is dumb. And that is a problem that can and needs to be adressed.

The same goes for other dumb questions we're forced to ask. Don't make them a mandatory part of the dialog.

Kesstryl · June 2023

I have to imagine my alts are saying different responses to the on screen options, or they are being snide for being patronized.

kynesgrove · June 2023

I agree,

Although this Chapter release I didn't feel as talked down to as with High Isle/Firesong. I felt like I was being treated like a toddler over there, and being a Breton hardly ever mattered, which felt terrible. Or imagine being a Altmer and not knowing who Syrabane is...

Why I feel this was a slight improvement though:

In the main quest, if an option for a question exists but I already know the answer to it I simply didn't select it.
I didn't feel the need to or forced to. They gave a lot more freedom this time around, not being forced to go through dialogue options you might know the answer to, to progress (questions like "Who are you?" "What is a book?" "Why do I have the memory of a goldfish?" etc). Not always, but it is better than last year.

The matter of choice has improved, you do not have to exhaust every dialogue option if the question truly rings as something profoundly stupid.

________________________________________________________

What I enjoy most is when NPCs recognise you through your actions in game or racial choices. It's just something special. I LOVED being recognised by Vaermina.

It REALLY sucks when what you are and the implications of who you chose in game to be, have no bearing, like race choice.
Because choosing a race comes with all the bells and whistles of lore and culture attached to it. At least if you're really into the lore aspect of your character.

Murkmire I felt handled this very well when playing as an Argonian, the NPCs were genuinely baffled of the things you don't know but felt comfortable talking to you in a manner they might speak to egg-kin.

I would say it is an improvement from last year, what my opinion says and implies about the quality you can decide.

Frogmother · June 2023

Sad is, that the dialogues in the main game (non add-on) are much better and the vestige asks reasonable questions instead of "why are we here, what is your opinion on ... , what will happen if I ...".

I wish the dialogues would be as good as the atmosphere in the game is, as long as you don't talk.

Also sidequest dialogues are often much better than in the main quest.

Frogmother · June 2023

ArchMikem wrote: »

"Wait Vestige! Before we open this door and continue into the ruin on this quest we've been on for the past half hour, I REALLY think I need to remind you of everything you just did and why you did it. Nope, sorry you can't open that door until you hear me out."

5 min later:
Vestige:" what will happen, when I open the door?"

KlauthWarthog · June 2023

I am not annoyed at the existence of "recap" questions. I am insulted by their wording.

And I am annoyed at the lack of options to call back to other quests related to the subject or NPC in question. My character has been furry-face to slimy-tentacle with this specific aberration before, and said aberration lied to my furry-face about the rewards involved on that event. Yet this is somehow not important enough to get a side note on the dialog?

Edit: removed some unnecessary angst.

Beilin_Balreis_Colcan · June 2023

Not all the dumb dialogue lines come from the Vestige. I was doing a quest today, when Eveli came up with this classic (spoiler's from the Blackwood main quests):

"Keshu told me to take a thinking break. It helps to take a break sometimes, you know. From thinking. So you can think better later.

I like Eveli a lot, she's one of my favourite characters, and this didn't change my opinion of her. But it was pretty funny.

Treselegant · June 2023

Honestly, after the prologue and then playing it on pts, the crushing realisation that absolutely nothing much had changed for this chapter put the final nail in the coffin of me buying it. An awful lot of people buy chapters for the story - I was one of them - but the writing quality just isn't improving. The constant recaps can be annoying but it's the characterisation of the main character being an absolute moron with dialogue that leaves no room for roleplaying at all that gets me. If you don't want your character to talk like an extra from a Marvel film with quippy Wheedonesque dialogue you're kinda out luck.

You will be a complete novice who's never seen a daedra before, you will be scared of the big bad, you will press the next button on this very thinly written visual novel made for players under level 10. For me, the writing quality hit rock bottom in High Isle but I'm still getting exactly the same tone from this new chapter and quite frankly it's going to take a hefty discount to get me to add it to my collection because players reacting with "meh, it's alright, what can you expect" isn't enough to get me to part with my money this time.

Enemoriana · June 2023

Varana wrote: »

And more importantly - you don't have to ask Leramil who HM is. The conversation carries on without choosing that option. The only thing forcing you to "play dumb" in that instance is the overwhelming urge to grey out all dialogue options.

Problem is you never know if that question will give just short answer or some really new information. Will she say "that's daedric prince of knowledge" or give you a new branch of dialog about Apocrypha and her connections with Mora?
Unpredictable.

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS has to make the game like this, as the game is created in the real world.

There are reasons to add such questions, yes. But there are no reasons to force players through such questions.
At least in High Isle/Galen quests there are several times you can't not ask questions like 3-year old child with memory losses.
And it's very, very, very uncomfortable when you are treated like you can't do even simplest things yourself.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Put down the game for two months, when you come back and are trying to remember who these people are and what you are doing, you will be happy about the dialogue recaps.

Did Galen quests in first week, did last quests of High Isle/Galen storyline few days ago.
Still not happy about forced recaps.
What could make me happy? Different hairstyles of two almost identically dressed druid girls!

Hamfast · June 2023

I was thinking, I killed off "The Prophet" back in 2014 for the first time because he called me "Vestige"... I wonder if he still calls my newer characters "Vestige" so at some time in the future, they will choose to kill him off too... it has worked so far and will most likely going forward...

And now I see his disregard for my long years of tramping around Tamriel, doing quests, killing monsters, solving problems and saving the world many times, is reflected in the minds of others...

I really don't mind that an NPC that I spent weeks helping has forgotten me, there are folks in Walmart that I have greeted for years that barely notice me, but they see hundreds of people every day and I am but 1 of them, but none of them treat me like "Vestige" even if a few would like to..."Double A Batteries, they are right here, just behind you, under the huge Battery sign"

It's too bad there are not more quests that allow us to sacrifice those NPC's that annoy us most... "Do you know how long I have been... GAHHAGH"