Arms of Relequen is the new Savage WW and needs to be nerfed

xStaticx

You don't even have to use light attacks to proc relequen on a HA build. Just hold down the heavy attack button on a lightning staff and get 3 procs of relequen every heavy attack.

Vaqual

8-10 meter max range and the problem is solved

Skoomah

Let people have their fun. Stop asking for nerfs because you can’t mitigate some dots.

Alchimiste1

Skoomah wrote: »

Let people have their fun. Stop asking for nerfs because you can’t mitigate some dots.

The game is fairly balanced right now. Please don’t change a thing ZOS. DK, Warden, Sorc, NB, Arcanist, Templar, and Necros all have access to build choices that are competitive. The Tank meta is gone and time to kill for 95% of encounters is reasonable. There a certainly edge cases that could be considered imbalanced but that’s usually a small select of players. The edge cases don’t take away from the overall good state of balance right now.

JerBearESO

I play pretty regularly PvP and have not seen much rele use.... why are we saying it's meta. Haven't even seen this applied to me in a few months.... way of fire on the other hand

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

For anyone hopping on this necro thread, the story is that Static duals alot it seems and rele is OP for duals where there's no reason for the stacks to drop. LoS is frowned upon in duals.

In actual PvP game play rele is not overperforming by itself as it cannot crit and the stacks are lost easily, so literally just play around it....

Have to this day died one time to someone using rele....

Relequen is BiS for many ranged builds. It has nothing to do with dueling. I have fought many good players in BGs using Rele and it's oppresive.

You can't really change my mind on this, especially 6 months after and Rele becoming more widely used, which I raised concern about exactly 6 months ago. You were one of the people opposing the nerf of this set, and judging by my experience seeing more people running it, it looks like you are defending it because you're either using it or just for the sake of defending the set.

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

I play pretty regularly PvP and have not seen much rele use.... why are we saying it's meta. Haven't even seen this applied to me in a few months.... way of fire on the other hand

What server are you on and what platform

JerBearESO

StaticWave wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

I play pretty regularly PvP and have not seen much rele use.... why are we saying it's meta. Haven't even seen this applied to me in a few months.... way of fire on the other hand

What server are you on and what platform

PC NA, but I don't do Grey host I do the other

StaticWave

This is a 20 second duel where I slotted Relequen on my bowsorc:



17% DPS from Relequen for simply light attacking.

This is a deathmatch BG game where I scored 10 kills with 1.5 mil dmg in the same build. I recorded it too if anybody wants to watch:



Like I said, Relequen is overperfoming, and I've killed plenty people with it. Just because you haven't died to one doesn't mean you won't.

Skoomah

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Let people have their fun. Stop asking for nerfs because you can’t mitigate some dots.

The game is fairly balanced right now. Please don’t change a thing ZOS. DK, Warden, Sorc, NB, Arcanist, Templar, and Necros all have access to build choices that are competitive. The Tank meta is gone and time to kill for 95% of encounters is reasonable. There a certainly edge cases that could be considered imbalanced but that’s usually a small select of players. The edge cases don’t take away from the overall good state of balance right now.

Couldn’t have said it better myself ;-)

IZZEFlameLash

StaticWave wrote: »

This is a 20 second duel where I slotted Relequen on my bowsorc:



17% DPS from Relequen for simply light attacking.

This is a deathmatch BG game where I scored 10 kills with 1.5 mil dmg in the same build. I recorded it too if anybody wants to watch:



Like I said, Relequen is overperfoming, and I've killed plenty people with it. Just because you haven't died to one doesn't mean you won't.

Yeah, a lot of sweaty players are now seen with this set in Cyrodiil. I don't want PvErs to feel the nerf, so only sensible thing to do is to make it only work without Battlespirit buff active.

Skoomah

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Is this set a problem in any form of PvP outside duels? Should nerfs be made on behalf of dueling?

No. Dueling only requires paying attention to a fraction of variables vs other forms of PvP.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

This is a 20 second duel where I slotted Relequen on my bowsorc:



17% DPS from Relequen for simply light attacking.

This is a deathmatch BG game where I scored 10 kills with 1.5 mil dmg in the same build. I recorded it too if anybody wants to watch:



Like I said, Relequen is overperfoming, and I've killed plenty people with it. Just because you haven't died to one doesn't mean you won't.

First off yes it sounds like by your statements the set does not reflect the tooltip. I wouldn't really try to argue that and so this could be reported as a bug or request that the tooltip and performance match.

That being said, you can get kills with anything if the player is bad enough or you as a player are good enough. I've seen someone 1vx with ranged magblade and everyone knows that's pretty much trash.

So saying anyone got kills with anything isn't really much of an argument because of the random factors mentioned above.


That being said I can't exactly comment on how much of a problem it is or isn't because I haven't seen it really at all and my build wouldn't have issues with it because I can just get out of range or out heal it.


To be honest I feel like when it comes to light attacks these days I'm more seeing draugirkin, armaments or spec bow and with heavy attacks more so the boost to channel set, knight slayer, or again armaments.

Also to be fair this needs to be put in the queue of sets that are over performing and when you think of it like that it's pretty low on the chain. People aren't going to drop Vate master dw for this and yes I guess you could combine them but it seems like more work.

Now on the other side I've been bored trying to rank my ranged sorc so I'm putting this on today and will report back

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

This is a 20 second duel where I slotted Relequen on my bowsorc:



17% DPS from Relequen for simply light attacking.

This is a deathmatch BG game where I scored 10 kills with 1.5 mil dmg in the same build. I recorded it too if anybody wants to watch:



Like I said, Relequen is overperfoming, and I've killed plenty people with it. Just because you haven't died to one doesn't mean you won't.

Ok so I tested this in my own thrown together way and my per match kills or damage didn't noticeable go up over the average. It was nice being able to do damage and have it tick away while I did other things but other proc sets do the same and felt stronger with the cost of a button press.

I used savage werewolf for a short time when it was busted and this hardly felt like that. Also coincidentally in my first match of the day someone put the proc on me but considering it hadn't built up it wasn't anything interesting.

It might be mismatched to the tooltip but it's not nearly the threat that other things already are in pvp.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is a 20 second duel where I slotted Relequen on my bowsorc:



17% DPS from Relequen for simply light attacking.

This is a deathmatch BG game where I scored 10 kills with 1.5 mil dmg in the same build. I recorded it too if anybody wants to watch:



Like I said, Relequen is overperfoming, and I've killed plenty people with it. Just because you haven't died to one doesn't mean you won't.

First off yes it sounds like by your statements the set does not reflect the tooltip. I wouldn't really try to argue that and so this could be reported as a bug or request that the tooltip and performance match.

That being said, you can get kills with anything if the player is bad enough or you as a player are good enough. I've seen someone 1vx with ranged magblade and everyone knows that's pretty much trash.

So saying anyone got kills with anything isn't really much of an argument because of the random factors mentioned above.


That being said I can't exactly comment on how much of a problem it is or isn't because I haven't seen it really at all and my build wouldn't have issues with it because I can just get out of range or out heal it.


To be honest I feel like when it comes to light attacks these days I'm more seeing draugirkin, armaments or spec bow and with heavy attacks more so the boost to channel set, knight slayer, or again armaments.

Also to be fair this needs to be put in the queue of sets that are over performing and when you think of it like that it's pretty low on the chain. People aren't going to drop Vate master dw for this and yes I guess you could combine them but it seems like more work.

Now on the other side I've been bored trying to rank my ranged sorc so I'm putting this on today and will report back

It's BiS for a lot of ranged builds. I didn't just throw this statement in because I hate the set lol.

The best stat build for ranged Sorc right now is Essence Thief/Rallying Cry, and just by throwing this set on I increased my DPS by 1k-1.5k in duels and 500+ in GvGs.

You can get out of ranged, that's for sure, but are you going to kite full time? Savage WW was a problem because of how easy it is to apply damage right? This set is no different. It's incredibly easy to get 10 stacks. All it takes is constant light attack weaving.

We've established that this set can tick twice - 1 from the DoT and another from landing a light attack. At base stacks, you are doing ~300 per tick, so 600 every second. At full stacks, you're doing around 600-1k damage per tick. That's 1.2k-2k every second. All it takes is 5 seconds of constantly light attacking, or 10s if you're weaving abilities. Idk about you, but when a set is doing ~17-20% of my damage, that's grounds for balance.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

It's BiS for a lot of ranged builds. I didn't just throw this statement in because I hate the set lol.

I mean numbers don't lie however it also depends on your playstyle. I tried it and I do like ranged builds but I'd take something like Draugrkin or other sets over this because I don't really like having to do the work to create or maitain the stacks. I think more people will go with easier proc damage methods. Like I said numbers don't lie but when speaking of the majority of players you have to account for ease of use and most of your general players don't care to light attack which is why masters, vate, etc see so much play these days.

StaticWave wrote: »

The best stat build for ranged Sorc right now is Essence Thief/Rallying Cry, and just by throwing this set on I increased my DPS by 1k-1.5k in duels and 500+ in GvGs.

Again, based on sheer math and the tooltip I'd say clarrifcation is needed one way or the other but I honestly don't think we'll see a large increase in real world usage. I'm about to take my testing set off right now as it's not really been fun to play over serveral matches. Not saying the set is bad or that I didn't get any kills, just that it isn't really that great for the work required since I do light attack but would prefer my damage to be more all around.

StaticWave wrote: »

You can get out of ranged, that's for sure, but are you going to kite full time?

Naw I'm sorc so I just pick a time to come back and do my own ranged damage. In that case in particular I just let the effect expire and they had moved on so I wasn't even sure which player did it but honestly it was just noticeable because of the visual effect not because of any significant damage.

I didn't try it in any duels but duels aren't really a measure of anything meaningful when it comes to balance in this game. That being said obviously the effect would be stronger there.

StaticWave wrote: »

Savage WW was a problem because of how easy it is to apply damage right? This set is no different. It's incredibly easy to get 10 stacks. All it takes is constant light attack weaving.

We've established that this set can tick twice - 1 from the DoT and another from landing a light attack. At base stacks, you are doing ~300 per tick, so 600 every second. At full stacks, you're doing around 600-1k damage per tick. That's 1.2k-2k every second. All it takes is 5 seconds of constantly light attacking, or 10s if you're weaving abilities. Idk about you, but when a set is doing ~17-20% of my damage, that's grounds for balance.

Eh for some reason I rember Savage being more interesting but that's probably because I killed a WW I couldn't kill before with it with ease. I believe it's because of the poison factor or something.

That being said for my particular way of playing I have more fun and get more kills without this set. There's no denying your math however due to the low number of real world cases I've seen I personally would be fine to leave it as is for pve reasons and have zos work on fixing some of the other things that are much bigger issues before touching this.

JerBearESO

Savage did not need to be stacked, and could therfore crit. So it was dealing upfront pressure that could not readily be countered. Rele has counterplay since it NEEDS its stacks to do decent damage

VinnyGambini

Half year ago I stated that relequen in OP:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/632674/relequen-set#latest

Everyone said I have no idea.

Today some ppl woke up that this set is overperforming. Just like pillar of nirn, it should be nerfed 30%.

Bushido2513

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Half year ago I stated that relequen in OP:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/632674/relequen-set#latest

Everyone said I have no idea.

Today some ppl woke up that this set is overperforming. Just like pillar of nirn, it should be nerfed 30%.

Again I won't say the math is wrong but I will say that in the comparison of those two you have to look at proc conditions and I would say that if someone is wiling to main light attack stacks they should get more damage. Again I'll say this is only a thing in pve and I am fine with it staying the same unless the plan is to make other sets more interesting by brining in the power of other BIS sets.

But again that's the pve side of things. In pvp this set just isn't really a thing unless someone wants to just try to make it a thing. If you're really trying to burst someone you aren't picking up this set over clearly better choices.

Bushido2513

JerBearESO wrote: »

Savage did not need to be stacked, and could therfore crit. So it was dealing upfront pressure that could not readily be countered. Rele has counterplay since it NEEDS its stacks to do decent damage

Thanks for clarifying. I knew there was a reason savage seemed so much more potent.

finehair

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Relequen behaves like Savage WW where a light/heavy attack will apply a separate "tick" of damage on top of the DoT. Therefore even if you don't wear any attack speed sets, you can still proc Relequen twice in a second from the tick and from doing a light attack weave. You can see it in the first screenshot of this comment.

This is exactly how Savage WW worked before it got nerfed. The only difference is you need to build stacks with Relequen. The argument that it's cleansable is laughable. A build with Relequen will have at least 10 debuffs on you at all times, making it nearly impossible to cleanse it. Even if they did, it would just get reapplied again and reached full stacks in 5 seconds from consistent light attack weave.

I don't care if it's a proc that ticks once a second. But when it can tick twice a second, then it is borderline one of the strongest procs in the game. It is only a matter of time before people catch up to how this set works and run it on ranged builds.

Just a note here.

It takes 10 applications to reach max stacks, so 10 seconds when weaving, or 7 seconds when spamming light attacks or heavy attacks. In pvp most will be dodged so enjoy getting max stacks every 15 to 20 seconds and often having those stacks cleansed away at 5 or so stacks. The overall power of the set should be judged at half stacks, not max, because of this.

Also remember the behavior is extremely unreliable on ranged builds, so it would be used on melee builds. Melee builds are usually about burst, not building up pressure over 15 to 20 seconds worth of sustained combat....

Proper melee combat is both tbh. You build pressure until you make your enemy eat their resource and stunlock to burst them down to death

Bushido2513

finehair wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Relequen behaves like Savage WW where a light/heavy attack will apply a separate "tick" of damage on top of the DoT. Therefore even if you don't wear any attack speed sets, you can still proc Relequen twice in a second from the tick and from doing a light attack weave. You can see it in the first screenshot of this comment.

This is exactly how Savage WW worked before it got nerfed. The only difference is you need to build stacks with Relequen. The argument that it's cleansable is laughable. A build with Relequen will have at least 10 debuffs on you at all times, making it nearly impossible to cleanse it. Even if they did, it would just get reapplied again and reached full stacks in 5 seconds from consistent light attack weave.

I don't care if it's a proc that ticks once a second. But when it can tick twice a second, then it is borderline one of the strongest procs in the game. It is only a matter of time before people catch up to how this set works and run it on ranged builds.

Just a note here.

It takes 10 applications to reach max stacks, so 10 seconds when weaving, or 7 seconds when spamming light attacks or heavy attacks. In pvp most will be dodged so enjoy getting max stacks every 15 to 20 seconds and often having those stacks cleansed away at 5 or so stacks. The overall power of the set should be judged at half stacks, not max, because of this.

Also remember the behavior is extremely unreliable on ranged builds, so it would be used on melee builds. Melee builds are usually about burst, not building up pressure over 15 to 20 seconds worth of sustained combat....

Proper melee combat is both tbh. You build pressure until you make your enemy eat their resource and stunlock to burst them down to death

Someone skills tell ZOS because this is not what's usually happening in melee these days. There's no build just instant pressure into burst. Which is where this set falls short by a long shot.

Try building stacks against a meta dk, Arcanist, NB, dot sorc, etc, you won't have long, let alone the ability to maintain them.

katorga

It is the 20K merciless bow proc that makes this work.

I achieve similar results LA weaving crushing shock with Draugrkin/Way of Fire, into a Bow proc. Melts meta players from range.

Bushido2513

katorga wrote: »

It is the 20K merciless bow proc that makes this work.

I achieve similar results LA weaving crushing shock with Draugrkin/Way of Fire, into a Bow proc. Melts meta players from range.

And what makes all of that work is cloak and a burst heal lol.

IZZEFlameLash

Fought a Relequen enjoyer at IC on my magsorc. Was having super difficult time recovering myself. If it wasn't for the LoS, the fight would've been even tougher. I won that one but, it is a very strong set. No wonder people flock to it. All that person has to do is to light attack to build stack to demolish any shield you have and start chipping away at your health. Classes with burst heals will definitely have better time fending that off but longer the fight goes, more in favor Relequen user is as their resource spending is far less than you.

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

Savage did not need to be stacked, and could therfore crit. So it was dealing upfront pressure that could not readily be countered. Rele has counterplay since it NEEDS its stacks to do decent damage

Whether they can crit or require stacks aren't that important though. How both sets deal damage are functionally identical. 1 tick of damage is applied on activation (landing a light attack), and another tick of damage is applied via a DoT effect. But let's include that criteria for argument's sake.

Savage WW didn't receive any tooltip nerf, so this is what my tooltip would look like with Savage WW pre nerf at 5.5k weapon damage:



1357 at base, and with 103% crit damage it can deal 2754

My tooltip with Relequen at 5.5k weapon damage:



332 at base, and 3320 at full stacks.

So let's do some quick math here. With the base tooltip of Savage WW, it will require the user to get 4 stacks of Relequen to have an almost equivalent base damage. That's achieved in 2 seconds if you spam light attacks, or 4 seconds if you weave abilities. When crit, Savage WW deals 2754 damage, so it will require the user to get ~8 stacks. That's 4s of constantly light attacking, or 8 seconds if weaving abilities. Over 9 stacks, Relequen deals more damage than Savage WW even when it crits.

You can make an argument that Savage WW would deal more damage than Relequen up until it reaches 9 stacks, but that's not the full picture. Savage WW's maximum damage depends on your weapon damage, crit chance, and crit damage. Relequen only requires you to build weapon damage and constantly light attack within 5 seconds.

The reality though is Savage WW only outperforms Relequen for the first 5-6 seconds, and that's IF you get lucky with the crits. That means Savage WW is best used with a Bow as it gives you extra crit chance. After 5-6 seconds, Relequen beats Savage WW by a long shot.

Sure, you can argue that building stacks is a huge drawback, but is it really? If I really want to get those stacks up fast, I can literally just spam light attacks for 3 seconds and get 6 stacks already. Most importantly, it's consistent damage like Malacath. There's no crit chance or crit damage involved, so you can ignore them completely and pump your stats into weapon damage and resistances. What do you think is harder to do: Splitting stats between weapon damage, crit chance, crit damage, resistances, or splitting stats between weapon damage and resistances?

Arcanasx

Perfected Relequen's also adds max stamina as well.

Isteris

I'm not taking sides here but these threads are a constant thing, this op pve set needs nurfing for the good of pvp or they have completely messed up our pve set for pve content because it is over performing in pvp, this nonsense has to stop. It cant be that difficult for the clever people at zos to make all pve gear very average as soon as you enter pvp and give pvp dedicated sets that meet the communities needs but don't work so well in pve. Both sets of players have a passion for their chosen part of the game, ZOS why does one side or the other have to loose out when it does not need to be this way.

IZZEFlameLash

Isteris wrote: »

I'm not taking sides here but these threads are a constant thing, this op pve set needs nurfing for the good of pvp or they have completely messed up our pve set for pve content because it is over performing in pvp, this nonsense has to stop. It cant be that difficult for the clever people at zos to make all pve gear very average as soon as you enter pvp and give pvp dedicated sets that meet the communities needs but don't work so well in pve. Both sets of players have a passion for their chosen part of the game, ZOS why does one side or the other have to loose out when it does not need to be this way.

That is why they need to do more of 'when battle spirit is active' or 'against monsters' types of change rather than blanket reduction.

Bushido2513

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Fought a Relequen enjoyer at IC on my magsorc. Was having super difficult time recovering myself. If it wasn't for the LoS, the fight would've been even tougher. I won that one but, it is a very strong set. No wonder people flock to it. All that person has to do is to light attack to build stack to demolish any shield you have and start chipping away at your health. Classes with burst heals will definitely have better time fending that off but longer the fight goes, more in favor Relequen user is as their resource spending is far less than you.

Just so this doesn't get taken without perspective there's a few things to note.

I'm pretty sure you would have had the same or worse time with someone using Vate/masters dw/ fire or appetite set.

They can create wayyyy more pressure with two skills vs having to keep up light attacks on you.

Not saying someone couldn't keep this up on you at all times but that person is usually either only worried about the light attacks and is probably an easy kill or so skilled with light attack weaving that they'd just as easily pressure you with other sets.

Also flock to it is a stretch. I do occasionally see it but I get hit a lot more by rending, Vate, maw, marselok, fire, and funny enough hrothgar which all give you a lot easier damage for the work required.

Now the person you faced could have also been using fire, draugirkin, etc to enhance their overall damage but yeah this set just doesn't rank up there with the sets I've already mentioned.

I hadn't tested this until after my previous post but I took pretty much my same build and just took off rele and put on vate and got more kills and instant pressure with a lot less work or thought.


Again I'll be clear as say that performance doesn't match the tooltip and that could be corrected but in terms of pvp threat scale this is b or c tier.