Arms of Relequen is the new Savage WW and needs to be nerfed

JerBearESO

How can you not figure out that if it ticks every second then it can tick one second after being applied and then immediately after from being applied again. Light attack, it procs and will tick immediately and then again after one second, and your next light attack is going to hit NO LESS then one second later, so it will tick then get applied again.

That's by design

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

How can you not figure out that if it ticks every second then it can tick one second after being applied and then immediately after from being applied again. Light attack, it procs and will tick immediately and then again after one second, and your next light attack is going to hit NO LESS then one second later, so it will tick then get applied again.

That's by design

And that's a bad design. This set is going to proc twice a second from the light attack and from the actual DoT, doubling its actual tooltip damage due to the light attack activation.

I am asking for them to at least consider removing the light attack activation so only the DoT is ticking.

JerBearESO

Removing the light attack activation removes the entire set.... It's meant to be used actively, consistently. Without it's immediate damage upon application you would have to not attack the enemy in order for it to damage them....

Again, it's intended design, it works fine, it's fine, it has plenty of counterplay options, and there's no reason for it to be nerfed. If you are having such a hard time against all the relequen users in pvp, (try and name two...) then just slap on maras balm and enjoy the consistent maras heal proc and occasional stacks reset.

WrathOfInnos

I don't think it is overpowered. However, this is one example of how arbitrary exceptions to rules can cause balance issues. Nearly all proc sets can crit, which is necessary to produce decent damage in PVE. This is balanced in PVP because players cannot build for high crit chance and crit damage, especially when facing opponents with crit resistance.

For unexplained reasons, Relequen is unable to crit. This meant the base DPS value had to be greater than other proc sets, since lack of crit effectively cuts its tooltip DPS in half compared to other options. As a result, the proc remains more powerful than other options in PVP, without having to contend with crit resistance or build high crit. Now the 2 lines of crit chance and useless major slayer prevent it from being problematic IMO, especially considering it's a single target, non-burst set that requires continuous light attacks.

Still, I could see it being changed to something like ~30-40% tooltip damage reduction, in exchange for the ability to crit.

Alchimiste1

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Relequen is doody in pvp. I play under 30k health with only 1 piece heavy and can't remember the last time I died with the green winds on me. It's almost like it helps the person affected.

If you don't PVP and are reading this post, disregard it. Relequen is never even decent outside of high end PVE situations where stuff lives for longer than 5 seconds.

This isn't true. Relequen is actually one of the strongest sets you can use for pvp on the right builds. Although admittedly, it shines the most for 1v1s. It's just most people overlook it because they think it's only good for pve.

Necrotech_Master

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don't think it is overpowered. However, this is one example of how arbitrary exceptions to rules can cause balance issues. Nearly all proc sets can crit, which is necessary to produce decent damage in PVE. This is balanced in PVP because players cannot build for high crit chance and crit damage, especially when facing opponents with crit resistance.

For unexplained reasons, Relequen is unable to crit. This meant the base DPS value had to be greater than other proc sets, since lack of crit effectively cuts its tooltip DPS in half compared to other options. As a result, the proc remains more powerful than other options in PVP, without having to contend with crit resistance or build high crit. Now the 2 lines of crit chance and useless major slayer prevent it from being problematic IMO, especially considering it's a single target, non-burst set that requires continuous light attacks.

Still, I could see it being changed to something like ~30-40% tooltip damage reduction, in exchange for the ability to crit.

my understanding is that relequen cannot crit because its considered "scaling" dmg (akin to zaan, vateshran destro proc, or dark convergence), even though its functionally a bit different

merpins

DocFrost72 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

This is a perfect example of what PVE players complain about. Relequen is not just a PVE set, it is the set for almost all stamina PVE DD builds.

Respectfully, this may be enough reason to change it...

Respectfully, I don't think Relequen needs a nerf in PVE either. I think all sets that are terrible and unused should be buffed to actually be useable for end-game content, using Relequen and other end-game sets as a benchmark to try and reach. It's the set for stamina pve builds, but most of us in end-game don't want it to be. We want more variety, not just a new hotness that gets nerfed so we slot back into old standards. If everything is good, then build diversity would be insane. And it should be.

OBJnoob

El_Borracho wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

This is a perfect example of what PVE players complain about. Relequen is not just a PVE set, it is the set for almost all stamina PVE DD builds.

Respectfully, this may be enough reason to change it...

If I may, I think you missed the point? It wouldn't be changing it for PvP reasons it would be changing it for overperforming

merpins wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

This is a perfect example of what PVE players complain about. Relequen is not just a PVE set, it is the set for almost all stamina PVE DD builds.

Respectfully, this may be enough reason to change it...

Respectfully, I don't think Relequen needs a nerf in PVE either. I think all sets that are terrible and unused should be buffed to actually be useable for end-game content, using Relequen and other end-game sets as a benchmark to try and reach. It's the set for stamina pve builds, but most of us in end-game don't want it to be. We want more variety, not just a new hotness that gets nerfed so we slot back into old standards. If everything is good, then build diversity would be insane. And it should be.

"Good" is a comparative term. Plenty of things are good, if by good you mean good enough to beat the content. The reason so many people use relequen isn't because it's "good" it's because it's the "best." It may only be the best because of the fact that it procs more than once a second-- thereby making it "broken and OP" in PvE as well. Respectfully, I think that's what they were getting at.

Buffing every other set to be on par with relequen would be hard and/or unhelpful for 3 reasons, off the top of my head. 1) Getting good gear is supposed to be part of the experience of the game. Part of the progression through various levels of content. If any old set performed as well as relequen then why bother doing trials? 2) Buffing 100 sets is 100 times harder than nerfing 1. 3) I think it'd be very difficult to actually make them all mathematically the same over the course of a 2 minute parse. In all likelihood they wouldn't be, and someone would figure out what was now best and then we'd be having this discussion about that instead. Because an extra 5k over the course of a 2 minute parse just really really seems to matter to some people.

Vaqual

If it really becomes a big issue they can still introduce a maximum range for the proc (e.g. 8m). But limiting the set pool for PvP with a "monster only" condition just narrows down the pool of options and just doesn't feel very good. I also feel that this treatment was not right for heavy attacks and empower. While I agree that some stuff would be OP, it shouldn't do nothing outside of the "intended" game mode. Just as I think Crit Resist should do something in PvE, even if it is minute. Restrictions like this force reevalutions and this ends up funneling people towards the meta/fotm, which in turn makes the game boring.

WeylandLabs

Why is everything so dramatic now ?

You cannot base nerfing on 1 particular playstyle or duel. It's not practical in other PvP environments for group or small scale.

Imagine if everything was nerfed based on losing duels or dyingin ESO now ? - Makes no sense !

The playstyle is different and wasn't countered simple. Reason why I stay away from dueling on PC.

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Imagine dying in a duel to Relequen in 2023 and demanding a 5 year old set be nerfed.

Set can tick up to 5 times in 2 seconds dealing 800 dmg per tick.

I’ll slot Relequen. Let’s duel and see how long you survive

Well if they take maras you are hard countered so....

30s cooldown. I can reapply it in 5s if I wanted. Where is the hard counter?

Weckless

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Relequen behaves like Savage WW where a light/heavy attack will apply a separate "tick" of damage on top of the DoT. Therefore even if you don't wear any attack speed sets, you can still proc Relequen twice in a second from the tick and from doing a light attack weave. You can see it in the first screenshot of this comment.

This is exactly how Savage WW worked before it got nerfed. The only difference is you need to build stacks with Relequen. The argument that it's cleansable is laughable. A build with Relequen will have at least 10 debuffs on you at all times, making it nearly impossible to cleanse it. Even if they did, it would just get reapplied again and reached full stacks in 5 seconds from consistent light attack weave.

I don't care if it's a proc that ticks once a second. But when it can tick twice a second, then it is borderline one of the strongest procs in the game. It is only a matter of time before people catch up to how this set works and run it on ranged builds.

Just a note here.

It takes 10 applications to reach max stacks, so 10 seconds when weaving, or 7 seconds when spamming light attacks or heavy attacks. In pvp most will be dodged so enjoy getting max stacks every 15 to 20 seconds and often having those stacks cleansed away at 5 or so stacks. The overall power of the set should be judged at half stacks, not max, because of this.

Also remember the behavior is extremely unreliable on ranged builds, so it would be used on melee builds. Melee builds are usually about burst, not building up pressure over 15 to 20 seconds worth of sustained combat....

Bro ranged builds are where these sets shine what are you even talking about. And no they never said it procing every light attack was intended. You made that up. The reward for good weaving is having consistent uptime. It's always been that way

Weckless

TybaltKaine wrote: »

The problem with this post is not that it is calling for a bug fix, but for a nerf. Those are two very different things. Nerfing the set into the ground doesn't fix the underlying bug. Maybe if you worded things differently there wouldn't be such a knee jerk response.

If the set is behaving inappropriately, fix it by determining the problem. I'd also like to know if this is as much of a problem in general PVP or even Battlegrounds, which I doubt it is. In a duel it is easy to get overwhelmed by something like this, while in group play I doubt it would tickle tbh.

But, as mentioned, there are easy counters for this. Cleansing, Mara's Balm, and dodging come to mind immediately.

I use relequen on a bowsorc in bgs and am top damage/kills every game lol. At 5 stacks you're Savage WW's old damage. At 10 you're doing double that

Dr_Con

it seems to be updating with changes in armor amounts, that's really the only explanation for it going down in damage with a later tick, other than the enemy's weapon damage changing being a culprit.

The OP isn't asking for nerfs, lol.

JerBearESO

Weckless wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

The problem with this post is not that it is calling for a bug fix, but for a nerf. Those are two very different things. Nerfing the set into the ground doesn't fix the underlying bug. Maybe if you worded things differently there wouldn't be such a knee jerk response.

If the set is behaving inappropriately, fix it by determining the problem. I'd also like to know if this is as much of a problem in general PVP or even Battlegrounds, which I doubt it is. In a duel it is easy to get overwhelmed by something like this, while in group play I doubt it would tickle tbh.

But, as mentioned, there are easy counters for this. Cleansing, Mara's Balm, and dodging come to mind immediately.

I use relequen on a bowsorc in bgs and am top damage/kills every game lol. At 5 stacks you're Savage WW's old damage. At 10 you're doing double that

Savage could crit, rele can not, so it's not accurate to suggest it reaches double damage when savage should be considered having nearly 50% more than it's tooltip with a decent crit setup

StaticWave

Dr_Con wrote: »

it seems to be updating with changes in armor amounts, that's really the only explanation for it going down in damage with a later tick, other than the enemy's weapon damage changing being a culprit.

The OP isn't asking for nerfs, lol.

Correct. I’m asking for the double, or even triple tick in a second to be removed. It’s clearly not doing what it’s being described by the tooltip.

I could careless about the actual dot, but when I’m taking 2k free dmg every second because it’s double ticking, then something is wrong lol

StaticWave

Weckless wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Relequen behaves like Savage WW where a light/heavy attack will apply a separate "tick" of damage on top of the DoT. Therefore even if you don't wear any attack speed sets, you can still proc Relequen twice in a second from the tick and from doing a light attack weave. You can see it in the first screenshot of this comment.

This is exactly how Savage WW worked before it got nerfed. The only difference is you need to build stacks with Relequen. The argument that it's cleansable is laughable. A build with Relequen will have at least 10 debuffs on you at all times, making it nearly impossible to cleanse it. Even if they did, it would just get reapplied again and reached full stacks in 5 seconds from consistent light attack weave.

I don't care if it's a proc that ticks once a second. But when it can tick twice a second, then it is borderline one of the strongest procs in the game. It is only a matter of time before people catch up to how this set works and run it on ranged builds.

Just a note here.

It takes 10 applications to reach max stacks, so 10 seconds when weaving, or 7 seconds when spamming light attacks or heavy attacks. In pvp most will be dodged so enjoy getting max stacks every 15 to 20 seconds and often having those stacks cleansed away at 5 or so stacks. The overall power of the set should be judged at half stacks, not max, because of this.

Also remember the behavior is extremely unreliable on ranged builds, so it would be used on melee builds. Melee builds are usually about burst, not building up pressure over 15 to 20 seconds worth of sustained combat....

Bro ranged builds are where these sets shine what are you even talking about. And no they never said it procing every light attack was intended. You made that up. The reward for good weaving is having consistent uptime. It's always been that way

Exactly, the set doesnt say anywhere that light attack can also proc another instance of damage. It just says the DoT will tick every second.

This was how Savage WW functioned as well. The set said you will take X dmg over X seconds, but never said anything about light attacks applying a separate instance of damage.

Dr_Con

StaticWave wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

it seems to be updating with changes in armor amounts, that's really the only explanation for it going down in damage with a later tick, other than the enemy's weapon damage changing being a culprit.

The OP isn't asking for nerfs, lol.

Correct. I’m asking for the double, or even triple tick in a second to be removed. It’s clearly not doing what it’s being described by the tooltip.

I could careless about the actual dot, but when I’m taking 2k free dmg every second because it’s double ticking, then something is wrong lol

My concern is the knee jerk reaction a lot of the first posts have, the dogpiling, and the support they received. With no new stacks being added, there is no reason why ticks of harmful winds should be proccing milliseconds apart, or sometimes within the same millisecond, and going down in damage. Harmful Winds needs to go up in damage with each tick, it might be something as simple as a weapon swap that is causing a recalculation of damage to add another tick, or a buff on you wearing off, debuff being added/wearing off, or buff/debuff being added/removed to the enemy that's causing this all.

Weckless

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Imagine dying in a duel to Relequen in 2023 and demanding a 5 year old set be nerfed.

Set can tick up to 5 times in 2 seconds dealing 800 dmg per tick.

I’ll slot Relequen. Let’s duel and see how long you survive

Well if they take maras you are hard countered so....

Actually rele would be considered a counter to maras.. maras heal only procs once a second so the bugged light attack activation negates it allowing the dot to do full damage

JerBearESO

So I'm not sure why

Weckless wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Imagine dying in a duel to Relequen in 2023 and demanding a 5 year old set be nerfed.

Set can tick up to 5 times in 2 seconds dealing 800 dmg per tick.

I’ll slot Relequen. Let’s duel and see how long you survive

Well if they take maras you are hard countered so....

Actually rele would be considered a counter to maras.. maras heal only procs once a second so the bugged light attack activation negates it allowing the dot to do full damage

That's some odd logic, true and false at the same time haha. It can out damage maras healing WHEN it is being used effectively and at high/max stacks. But the double dipping situation isn't even 100% with how PvP plays out, to say the least.

Also I was moreso referring to the fact that it nearly guarantees constant maras heal procs by the way it reapplies the DoT.

Just a reminder, it only double procs with precise light attack weaving and often fails to work with projectile light attacks do to projectile hit timing. So double proc is a sometimes situation. Triple proc only comes from a double light attack immediately after a tick, which breaks from proper weaving. So it is misleading to judge it's power by these situations as though they are constants.

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

So I'm not sure why

Weckless wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Imagine dying in a duel to Relequen in 2023 and demanding a 5 year old set be nerfed.

Set can tick up to 5 times in 2 seconds dealing 800 dmg per tick.

I’ll slot Relequen. Let’s duel and see how long you survive

Well if they take maras you are hard countered so....

Actually rele would be considered a counter to maras.. maras heal only procs once a second so the bugged light attack activation negates it allowing the dot to do full damage

That's some odd logic, true and false at the same time haha. It can out damage maras healing WHEN it is being used effectively and at high/max stacks. But the double dipping situation isn't even 100% with how PvP plays out, to say the least.

Also I was moreso referring to the fact that it nearly guarantees constant maras heal procs by the way it reapplies the DoT.

Just a reminder, it only double procs with precise light attack weaving and often fails to work with projectile light attacks do to projectile hit timing. So double proc is a sometimes situation. Triple proc only comes from a double light attack immediately after a tick, which breaks from proper weaving. So it is misleading to judge it's power by these situations as though they are constants.

Wait till you fight a ranged build that stacks 7+ DoTs and spam Light attacks just to abuse this "mechanic" of Relequen. Easily 4k+ DPS on players (3.5k DPS in PvP is already considered very good. 4k DPS in PvP and you basically win most fights).

Like I said, the reason people havent used it as much is because they don't know about how it's functioning on live. All it takes is for some content creator to make a video about it and it will be meta.

JerBearESO

By spam light attacks I assume you mean spam light attacks, as we have already discussed the downside of projectile based weave timing. In that case, this is a light attack build of some kind, or it could be a relequen based heavy attacks build. Either way you are trading the damage of a spammable ability for a portion of the damage, and the trade off here is that you don't need as much sustain so you end up with higher stats.

Hey that sounds like a unique build based off relequen. It does NOT sound overpowered in any way, and would likely fall over to meta builds.

Thank you for supporting build diversity 😁

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

By spam light attacks I assume you mean spam light attacks, as we have already discussed the downside of projectile based weave timing. In that case, this is a light attack build of some kind, or it could be a relequen based heavy attacks build. Either way you are trading the damage of a spammable ability for a portion of the damage, and the trade off here is that you don't need as much sustain so you end up with higher stats.

Hey that sounds like a unique build based off relequen. It does NOT sound overpowered in any way, and would likely fall over to meta builds.

Thank you for supporting build diversity 😁

You aren't actually trading anything but a 5 piece set that can output more DPS than a tradition 5 piece set or any ability in the game.

I demonstrated in one of my CMX screenshots how in 1.5s, I received 5 ticks of Relequen for a total of 5k damage. That's more than 2.5k damage a second, for zero cost other than spamming light attacks which everyone always do.

There is no downside. You don't waste as much resources because applying 3-4 abilities with a DoT component that last between 10-20s and then spamming light attacks to proc Relequen 3 times per second is NOT as taxing as using a spammable every second.

Hardcore BG players on PC NA are already abusing this mechanic and outputting 4k-5k DPS. For some players, Relequen makes up 30% of their total damage.

You would not understand how broken this is unless you play in a high MMR BG game or run into the hardcore players that will stack as much cheese as possible. I run into them daily, and I am telling you how it currently is at the high level of PvP.

Call it "elite mentality"or whatever, I'm simply pointing out the cheese in high level PvP. People can decide to pick this set up and try it for themselves, or ignore it and let the few hardcore players dominate. Not my call.

StaticWave

Or better yet, would it prove my point better if I also slot Relequen (which I have for PvE), then go into a high MMR BG game and record my fights?

I think this speaks more volume than merely discussing something that people may not yet understand.

JerBearESO

StaticWave wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

By spam light attacks I assume you mean spam light attacks, as we have already discussed the downside of projectile based weave timing. In that case, this is a light attack build of some kind, or it could be a relequen based heavy attacks build. Either way you are trading the damage of a spammable ability for a portion of the damage, and the trade off here is that you don't need as much sustain so you end up with higher stats.

Hey that sounds like a unique build based off relequen. It does NOT sound overpowered in any way, and would likely fall over to meta builds.

Thank you for supporting build diversity 😁

You aren't actually trading anything but a 5 piece set that can output more DPS than a tradition 5 piece set or any ability in the game.

I demonstrated in one of my CMX screenshots how in 1.5s, I received 5 ticks of Relequen for a total of 5k damage. That's more than 2.5k damage a second, for zero cost other than spamming light attacks which everyone always do.

There is no downside. You don't waste as much resources because applying 3-4 abilities with a DoT component that last between 10-20s and then spamming light attacks to proc Relequen 3 times per second is NOT as taxing as using a spammable every second.

Hardcore BG players on PC NA are already abusing this mechanic and outputting 4k-5k DPS. For some players, Relequen makes up 30% of their total damage.

You would not understand how broken this is unless you play in a high MMR BG game or run into the hardcore players that will stack as much cheese as possible. I run into them daily, and I am telling you how it currently is at the high level of PvP.

Call it "elite mentality"or whatever, I'm simply pointing out the cheese in high level PvP. People can decide to pick this set up and try it for themselves, or ignore it and let the few hardcore players dominate. Not my call.

You are providing sever misinformation here. It's absurd. 5 ticks within 1.5 seconds can only be from highly situational and condensed instances. In other words, I challenge you to demonstrate a 5 ticks per 1.5 second rate consistently, as in for example produce this multiple times concurrently.

Show us 20 ticks within 6 seconds

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

By spam light attacks I assume you mean spam light attacks, as we have already discussed the downside of projectile based weave timing. In that case, this is a light attack build of some kind, or it could be a relequen based heavy attacks build. Either way you are trading the damage of a spammable ability for a portion of the damage, and the trade off here is that you don't need as much sustain so you end up with higher stats.

Hey that sounds like a unique build based off relequen. It does NOT sound overpowered in any way, and would likely fall over to meta builds.

Thank you for supporting build diversity 😁

You aren't actually trading anything but a 5 piece set that can output more DPS than a tradition 5 piece set or any ability in the game.

I demonstrated in one of my CMX screenshots how in 1.5s, I received 5 ticks of Relequen for a total of 5k damage. That's more than 2.5k damage a second, for zero cost other than spamming light attacks which everyone always do.

There is no downside. You don't waste as much resources because applying 3-4 abilities with a DoT component that last between 10-20s and then spamming light attacks to proc Relequen 3 times per second is NOT as taxing as using a spammable every second.

Hardcore BG players on PC NA are already abusing this mechanic and outputting 4k-5k DPS. For some players, Relequen makes up 30% of their total damage.

You would not understand how broken this is unless you play in a high MMR BG game or run into the hardcore players that will stack as much cheese as possible. I run into them daily, and I am telling you how it currently is at the high level of PvP.

Call it "elite mentality"or whatever, I'm simply pointing out the cheese in high level PvP. People can decide to pick this set up and try it for themselves, or ignore it and let the few hardcore players dominate. Not my call.

You are providing sever misinformation here. It's absurd. 5 ticks within 1.5 seconds can only be from highly situational and condensed instances. In other words, I challenge you to demonstrate a 5 ticks per 1.5 second rate consistently, as in for example produce this multiple times concurrently.

Show us 20 ticks within 6 seconds

It’s really not that hard to make it tick 5 times a second.

Idk why you keep saying that I’m providing “severe misinformation”. All my screenshots were done in duels against decent players.

You are looking at this from a PvE perspective and applying it to a PvP scenario. It really doesn’t need to be consistent to win a fight. All it takes is to tick 5 times in that specific second, on top of other DoTs, to prevent someone from healing back up and giving you the chance to execute.

Let me actually ask you though. What is your PvP experience? Cause I can't argue with you if we aren't talking with a common ground.

JerBearESO

I'm taking logic and math into account. They don't lie. There are precisely 2 ways to have it tick 5 times within 1.5 seconds. One is to use the increased attack speed set. The other requires a high skill combo using projectile light attacks in your favor, but also assumes one tick is from it already being active. That is to, as it ticks, light attack and ability while maintaining or increasing distance from the target to have a double tick and set up for another double tick using light attack and gapclose such as streak, then light attack again. We have a double tick to start, a double tick after one second and because the use of projectiles delayed the first two light attacks landing but not the point blank third light attack, we can potentially have it apply at the 1.5 second mark instead of 0.7 seconds after the second light attack for a 1.7 second timeframe. This is because light attacks have a 0.7 second cool down.

Let's note how tricky this is to pull off, but also the fact that the very first tick is only from it already being active and not from the combo itself, and also note that the final tick applies at the 1.5 second mark but does not take into account the following 0.7 second cool down before another tick can be applied, or a full second if casting any ability after the third light attack.

So my challenge is to account for the fact that the supposed 5 ticks within 1.5 seconds could not mathematically by produced consistently. The best one could do over a more realistic timeframe would be limited to 2 ticks per second if perfectly light attack weaving and spacing from the opponent (if kiting away with your opponent pursuing, your projectile reaches your target faster, so when you begine kiting you lose one double proc JUST for kiting).

The burst combo that can produce ticks rapidly is a burst combo and should be rewarded as such. We do not want skilled play to feel rewardless....

Weckless

JerBearESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

By spam light attacks I assume you mean spam light attacks, as we have already discussed the downside of projectile based weave timing. In that case, this is a light attack build of some kind, or it could be a relequen based heavy attacks build. Either way you are trading the damage of a spammable ability for a portion of the damage, and the trade off here is that you don't need as much sustain so you end up with higher stats.

Hey that sounds like a unique build based off relequen. It does NOT sound overpowered in any way, and would likely fall over to meta builds.

Thank you for supporting build diversity 😁

You aren't actually trading anything but a 5 piece set that can output more DPS than a tradition 5 piece set or any ability in the game.

I demonstrated in one of my CMX screenshots how in 1.5s, I received 5 ticks of Relequen for a total of 5k damage. That's more than 2.5k damage a second, for zero cost other than spamming light attacks which everyone always do.

There is no downside. You don't waste as much resources because applying 3-4 abilities with a DoT component that last between 10-20s and then spamming light attacks to proc Relequen 3 times per second is NOT as taxing as using a spammable every second.

Hardcore BG players on PC NA are already abusing this mechanic and outputting 4k-5k DPS. For some players, Relequen makes up 30% of their total damage.

You would not understand how broken this is unless you play in a high MMR BG game or run into the hardcore players that will stack as much cheese as possible. I run into them daily, and I am telling you how it currently is at the high level of PvP.

Call it "elite mentality"or whatever, I'm simply pointing out the cheese in high level PvP. People can decide to pick this set up and try it for themselves, or ignore it and let the few hardcore players dominate. Not my call.

You are providing sever misinformation here. It's absurd. 5 ticks within 1.5 seconds can only be from highly situational and condensed instances. In other words, I challenge you to demonstrate a 5 ticks per 1.5 second rate consistently, as in for example produce this multiple times concurrently.

Show us 20 ticks within 6 seconds

[snip] You already outted yourself the second you claimed relequen enables you to use blastbones as a spammable, which can only be interpreted as relequen gives you enough damage to be able to summon blastbones and spam light attacks and do viable damage which shouldnt be a thing. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Weckless

JerBearESO wrote: »

I'm taking logic and math into account. They don't lie. There are precisely 2 ways to have it tick 5 times within 1.5 seconds. One is to use the increased attack speed set. The other requires a high skill combo using projectile light attacks in your favor, but also assumes one tick is from it already being active. That is to, as it ticks, light attack and ability while maintaining or increasing distance from the target to have a double tick and set up for another double tick using light attack and gapclose such as streak, then light attack again. We have a double tick to start, a double tick after one second and because the use of projectiles delayed the first two light attacks landing but not the point blank third light attack, we can potentially have it apply at the 1.5 second mark instead of 0.7 seconds after the second light attack for a 1.7 second timeframe. This is because light attacks have a 0.7 second cool down.

Let's note how tricky this is to pull off, but also the fact that the very first tick is only from it already being active and not from the combo itself, and also note that the final tick applies at the 1.5 second mark but does not take into account the following 0.7 second cool down before another tick can be applied, or a full second if casting any ability after the third light attack.

So my challenge is to account for the fact that the supposed 5 ticks within 1.5 seconds could not mathematically by produced consistently. The best one could do over a more realistic timeframe would be limited to 2 ticks per second if perfectly light attack weaving and spacing from the opponent (if kiting away with your opponent pursuing, your projectile reaches your target faster, so when you begine kiting you lose one double proc JUST for kiting).

The burst combo that can produce ticks rapidly is a burst combo and should be rewarded as such. We do not want skilled play to feel rewardless....

And i have one for you
0.001 heavy attack lands
0.026 light attack 1 lands
0.726 light attack 2 lands
1.000 rele tick
1.426 light attack 3 lands

5 ticks in 1.426 seconds

NordSwordnBoard

I believe it's playing the game that causes these balance itches that get scratched on the forum. If you add up all the cogent arguments, you will see there's more in the "outlier set" column. I don't want Relequen wrecked in PvE when it can be adjusted to still be good for what it was meant for.

Think of this as the inverse of plaguebreak. The intended use functions well, but in other areas it is over performing. I agree with a change that steers the set back to its intended design. Its up to the devs if the unintended usage becomes better than the intent such that they leave it alone.