Can we please get a Auction House?

GooGa592

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i gave an answer that closes the discussion.
ttc functionality built into the game , still keep the sellers as they are but stops forcing you to spend time going around to each to look if you do not have access to ttc.

Having access to TTC doesn't always help as well, since it doesn't show what is really in stock NOW.

This would be far better for all platforms.

kaushad wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i gave an answer that closes the discussion.
ttc functionality built into the game , still keep the sellers as they are but stops forcing you to spend time going around to each to look if you do not have access to ttc.

That doesn't close it because we'd still have to jump hoops to sell. I don't really care that I don't know where things are on sale. I'll look around the alliance capitals when I'm there and back when there were free trading guilds, which certainly didn't sell in those cities, I could sell. But they always lost their post in the end and then I'd look for another guild set to fail.

It would solve most of the pain points. Removing the need for a trading guild is never going to happen, especially because of its gold sink aspect. This would at least make things findable.

Casul wrote: »

If we went to a AH I would want it to be like BDO, where there is a range for the price of items and it is not set by the player themselves, but rather the economy. Just my 2c

How does the player differ from the economy?

kargen27 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Inflation would go off the charts with a central auction house, and every trade guild would instantly become obsolete. The way it is now people have a chance to find the items they need in most cases, even if it is tedious and time consuming. So while the system now is clunky, it way better than a central auction house.

This is the reason nothing will change significantly. Too much is built on the gold sink that the current system is. That is the fatal flaw and keeps us using something that may have seemed great 10 years ago but that fails so many today.

Juju_beans wrote: »

I've played other games with a central auction house.
It makes it easy for players to "corner the market"

I like the guild traders and having to travel to buy stuff. It's part of the immersiveness of the game.

That was not true when I played WoW. I could actually find what I want and know a good price to sell things for. Wasting hours heading around to find things from different guild traders (even with TTC, impossible on console) is not immersive anymore than removing mounts would make the game more immersive.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I've played other games with a central auction house.
It makes it easy for players to "corner the market"

I like the guild traders and having to travel to buy stuff. It's part of the immersiveness of the game.

Addons for ESO do exactly that on PC.

Which ones? They definitely aren't on console, but even using TTC is far from perfect. I have spent hours using the TTC website only to travel places and find the item I was looking for is no longer there.

kargen27 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Swapping guild traders for an auction house, the math:

Number of players that will quit playing or stop buying crowns if this change is not made = X
Number of players that will quit playing or stop buying crowns if it is made = Y

X <<<<< Y

ZOS ain't that stupid.

Number of new players who will be more likely to stick around rather than ditch the game after three days....? This is what sometimes worries me about ESO and, especially, this forum. It seems overly preoccupied with people who have been playing for donkeys' years and are extremely attached to the status quo. Meanwhile, all sorts of things that are fairly unattractive for bringing in *new blood* are ignored.

This is akin to saying new players will leave because their level 15 character can't join vet trials. Everything a new player needs is readily available to that player. Gold is very easy to come by in game even for new players. Trading much like running trials has tiers. Players that dedicate massive amounts of time to trading get the most from trading. The players in a hurry to reach the end and want all the cool things now might become frustrated with how long it takes but that is on them. If they instead just enjoy the game they will find as they level they can get everything they need and a good amount of what they want.

So we need to keep broken things just as they are? Remember the advance that multi-crafting made? That "worked" prior to that and you could make money in spite of it not being there, but even the console experience is much better with it than the way it was.

Having TTC functionality built into the game, possibly making the "go fetch that item for me" be an extra gold sink as well, would make things much more enjoyable.

you are claiming something is broken when in fact it works quite well. Sure there could be a few tweaks but the system isn't broken. For how much people talk about TTC it really isn't all that is being made of it. If you count on TTC to find bargains you missed the bargain most the time. It isn't an up to date nor complete data base. It is good for finding rare items when you don't much care cost and don't want to spend a lot of time looking. Other than that you are better off without.

I would like to see a bulletin board in the main city of each zone that lists what every trader in that zone has available. There would be no prices listed and you would have to visit the trader to purchase the item. This would allow people who just want an item quick with no concern for price to go to most convenient location. It would also allow for bargain hunters to continue going from trader to trader searching for a good price.
As I've said many times this system is multi-tiered and players at any level can participate in trading. Those that treat trading like end game are rewarded. They should be. A central location takes their game away from them. It isn't their fault some choose not to participate in this one aspect of the game.

The current system is very broken if it is "working as intended". I don't use TTC for the best "bargains" I use it to help find (on the PC) things I am looking for, such as a motif I need for a Master Crafting Writ. The current system is a huge failure for that, though TTC will at least tell me a reasonable price (only on the PC).

The current system means most don't bother with much trading, especially on consoles, even if they are in a trading guild, as I am. (Dipping my toe back into both console and PC now.)

Why would allowing knowing the going price and locations for items break the game, except for those who focus mostly on flipping poor pricing decisions by others?

I also notice you ignored my comment about having a gold sink "helper" to task with getting an item for you.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

I'd like one too, I even suggested in the past putting it in Fargrave bazaar and making Fargrave a zone free for all players.

Be careful what you ask for. If you think inflation and prices are bad now, it would be 10x worse with a central auction house. A central auction house is a horrible idea. The only way it would work, as another poster pointed out, is if ZOS set the sale prices of items and the players had no way to game the system.

Have you ever played a game with a central AH? Your claims simply are not true in those games. Why would they be true in ESO? A central trader will not happen, but not because of this reason but because of the gold sink aspect the current system provides. Making TTC functionality in the game and open to all would fix much of the problem right away. Flippers might get hurt some, but even then I suspect people will poorly price things as I have seen in other games, keeping flippers busy if not focused differently.


========

Overall, this is at least as serious of a concern as the difficulty of open world content (which has its own thread) since it has posters on both sides anytime the issue comes up.

I personally bet those who say "the perfect system is just fine" either benefit greatly from it or would say that about any other quality of life change, such as crafting prior to multi-crafting. (Or the fileting that is now added to the provisioning locations.)

Yeah, the game worked prior to those improvements, but it was not as good.

Would calling someone a "flipper" be an insult or a violation of the TOS? Personally I detest how flippers run up the prices on the items most in demand.

GooGa592

Quethrosar wrote: »

i gave an answer that closes the discussion.
ttc functionality built into the game , still keep the sellers as they are but stops forcing you to spend time going around to each to look if you do not have access to ttc.

Everyone who has internet access has acess to TTC. So that means everyone has access to TTC doesn't it?

WiseSky

Each town having it's own traders puts a fun fuzzy feeling inside, it's like shopping at a near new thrift store with not knowing what amazing thing you can find. It gives life to travelling to new towns for me.

Trading is it's own mini game this way.

Having an "Auction House" is like having a Monopoly company that owns everything, it removes all the fun out of the trading in ESO.

Quethrosar

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i gave an answer that closes the discussion.
ttc functionality built into the game , still keep the sellers as they are but stops forcing you to spend time going around to each to look if you do not have access to ttc.

Having access to TTC doesn't always help as well, since it doesn't show what is really in stock NOW.


if the functionality is built into the game the items would be listed the second they are listed. Functionality does not mean use TTC itself, it means do its functions in the game as first party support. can't believe i need to spell that out

kargen27

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The current system is very broken if it is "working as intended". I don't use TTC for the best "bargains" I use it to help find (on the PC) things I am looking for, such as a motif I need for a Master Crafting Writ. The current system is a huge failure for that, though TTC will at least tell me a reasonable price (only on the PC).

The current system means most don't bother with much trading, especially on consoles, even if they are in a trading guild, as I am. (Dipping my toe back into both console and PC now.)

Why would allowing knowing the going price and locations for items break the game, except for those who focus mostly on flipping poor pricing decisions by others?

I also notice you ignored my comment about having a gold sink "helper" to task with getting an item for you."

The system not working as you wish doesn't mean the system is broken. Every player can get every item they need and almost any item they want. The market stays fluid and vibrant. Prices change as supply and demand changes. The economy is healthy.
Most don't bother with much trading like most don't bother with trying to get on the leader boards. That is one of my points and why the system works. There are many levels of trading and the more time you spend with trading the more you benefit from the system. For some trading is their end game.

Why would getting rid of Cyrodiil break the game except for those that PvP? Knowing prices would break the game for the players that enjoy flipping items. It is a major part of the game for those players. Why take that away from them just to convenience players that don't wish to participate in the trading system? Especially why take it away from players when the result would be a damaged economy and rampant in game inflation?

Hotdog_23

The long and short of AH is most PC players are fine with the current system due to the available add-ons that make the current system somewhat manageable and more user-friendly. Console players for the most part want a AH because we have no add-ons.

The game has over 200 guild traders and only getting more and more as new areas are added to the game. This problem is only going to get worse. Eventually, I would hope that ZOS realize and commit to improving the system the same way they have fixed the over 300 crafting stations needed for homes. While not perfect, it has helped.

Just an idea would be to change one vendor in each major city and chapter city to be a listing agent only for everything in the game, with location and price of all items. The player would still need to travel to and purchase the item from each individual vendor. Please, for the love of god, let us be able to filter known/unknown items.

Stay safe

FlopsyPrince

GooGa592 wrote: »

Would calling someone a "flipper" be an insult or a violation of the TOS? Personally I detest how flippers run up the prices on the items most in demand.

I was just using the term others used. That is their playstyle.

Mods, please correct me if that is not a valid term. Not sure what else you would call them, but I would like to stay compliant.

FlopsyPrince

GooGa592 wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i gave an answer that closes the discussion.
ttc functionality built into the game , still keep the sellers as they are but stops forcing you to spend time going around to each to look if you do not have access to ttc.

Everyone who has internet access has acess to TTC. So that means everyone has access to TTC doesn't it?

No, while it lists things on console, it is not properly updated for them. Nor are listing on TTC even truly accurate on the PC.

kargen27 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The current system is very broken if it is "working as intended". I don't use TTC for the best "bargains" I use it to help find (on the PC) things I am looking for, such as a motif I need for a Master Crafting Writ. The current system is a huge failure for that, though TTC will at least tell me a reasonable price (only on the PC).

The current system means most don't bother with much trading, especially on consoles, even if they are in a trading guild, as I am. (Dipping my toe back into both console and PC now.)

Why would allowing knowing the going price and locations for items break the game, except for those who focus mostly on flipping poor pricing decisions by others?

I also notice you ignored my comment about having a gold sink "helper" to task with getting an item for you."

The system not working as you wish doesn't mean the system is broken. Every player can get every item they need and almost any item they want. The market stays fluid and vibrant. Prices change as supply and demand changes. The economy is healthy.

That is simply not true. You cannot find all things, at least not with the gold most have. I am not talking about the really rare motifs, but specific items that are normally not as expensive, but that are not actively listed.

It definitely does not work on console where you can spend hours or even days going from trader to trader looking for a specific item. I have done so and it is not a value part of the game.

Why are you so opposed to changes if you note some skip that part anyway? Some of those are properly skipping it because of the hassle as things are now.

Why would getting rid of Cyrodiil break the game except for those that PvP? Knowing prices would break the game for the players that enjoy flipping items. It is a major part of the game for those players. Why take that away from them just to convenience players that don't wish to participate in the trading system? Especially why take it away from players when the result would be a damaged economy and rampant in game inflation?

Not sure what this has to do with the topic?

Where am I asking that anything be taken away? I simply want a way to find where something is and possibly even pay a slight fee for a "helper" to go get it for me.

reazea

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i gave an answer that closes the discussion.
ttc functionality built into the game , still keep the sellers as they are but stops forcing you to spend time going around to each to look if you do not have access to ttc.

Everyone who has internet access has acess to TTC. So that means everyone has access to TTC doesn't it?

No, while it lists things on console, it is not properly updated for them. Nor are listing on TTC even truly accurate on the PC.

kargen27 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The current system is very broken if it is "working as intended". I don't use TTC for the best "bargains" I use it to help find (on the PC) things I am looking for, such as a motif I need for a Master Crafting Writ. The current system is a huge failure for that, though TTC will at least tell me a reasonable price (only on the PC).

The current system means most don't bother with much trading, especially on consoles, even if they are in a trading guild, as I am. (Dipping my toe back into both console and PC now.)

Why would allowing knowing the going price and locations for items break the game, except for those who focus mostly on flipping poor pricing decisions by others?

I also notice you ignored my comment about having a gold sink "helper" to task with getting an item for you."

The system not working as you wish doesn't mean the system is broken. Every player can get every item they need and almost any item they want. The market stays fluid and vibrant. Prices change as supply and demand changes. The economy is healthy.

That is simply not true. You cannot find all things, at least not with the gold most have. I am not talking about the really rare motifs, but specific items that are normally not as expensive, but that are not actively listed.

It definitely does not work on console where you can spend hours or even days going from trader to trader looking for a specific item. I have done so and it is not a value part of the game.

Why are you so opposed to changes if you note some skip that part anyway? Some of those are properly skipping it because of the hassle as things are now.

Why would getting rid of Cyrodiil break the game except for those that PvP? Knowing prices would break the game for the players that enjoy flipping items. It is a major part of the game for those players. Why take that away from them just to convenience players that don't wish to participate in the trading system? Especially why take it away from players when the result would be a damaged economy and rampant in game inflation?

Not sure what this has to do with the topic?

Where am I asking that anything be taken away? I simply want a way to find where something is and possibly even pay a slight fee for a "helper" to go get it for me.

That's what happens when you play a game designed for PC on a gamebox. That's the choice those who play on gameboxes make when they decide to play on a gamebox.

Northwold

reazea wrote: »

That's what happens when you play a game designed for PC on a gamebox. That's the choice those who play on gameboxes make when they decide to play on a gamebox.

Moving on...

tomofhyrule

I definetly think that a TTC-esque 'finder' feature should be added. If you're looking for a rarer item specifically, it's not going to work to visit every trader. I'd love to have that, and it's be a massive help for people who don't (or can't) use addons.

However, I don't think we should be able to buy anything we want from a central location. Once you 'srcy' (or whatever) for the item you need, you should still have to go there to get it.

If there were a central location to buy things, that'd just cause rampant flipping. Yes, other MMOs do it... because that's how they were built. ESO was built with small guild traders, so if they overnight went to a central auction house, then the players aren't going to change their playstyle overnight. You'd have people write addons to purchase every [item X] on the house instantly so they could list them all for 3x the price... and now they can corner the market in seconds instead of having to spend hours running between locations.

Yes, people can manipulate the market and prices on ESO's current system. But it takes a lot more time and coordination than trying to do so on a central system, where the only thing stopping them from doing so is the amount of gold they have (and PC players tend to have a lot)

Elowen_Starveil

Not long ago, I made an impassioned post on Reddit about how TTC was both helping me find -- AND screwing me from getting -- the last few motifs I needed to complete my collection. I could see these pages being bought up and relisted at 10x the historical prices by 2 specific people in real time. For a couple of days, I tried to jump on them as they showed up on TTC, only to see that they were already gone, sometimes within literally a minute. By the time I made the post, I had seen 18 of them slip through my fingers. It's hard not to think there was at least a fast-running scraper in use, or that these people were somehow tied into the site's database directly.

Anyway, one of them saw my post, relented, and posted a couple back at the normal price, one of which I had already bought by the time I saw his response on Reddit. He was super chill and even sent me the money in game to cover the purchase. That's nice, but I didn't really care about the money. It was about the principle of the thing.

The current system leads to abuse like this, and I've actually seen this happen many times in just the couple of years I've played. There are many people who will chime in on these discussions, and point out systems in other games that seem to work better. I wish this game would do SOMEthing to change the status quo. You can say it's just "capitalism," but capitalism is supposed to be about "making a better mousetrap," not monopolizing a market and raising the prices extortionately. This is a game. It's supposed to be fun. Not a microcosm of private-equity-leveraged, late-stage capitalism.

Kidgangster101

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I definetly think that a TTC-esque 'finder' feature should be added. If you're looking for a rarer item specifically, it's not going to work to visit every trader. I'd love to have that, and it's be a massive help for people who don't (or can't) use addons.

However, I don't think we should be able to buy anything we want from a central location. Once you 'srcy' (or whatever) for the item you need, you should still have to go there to get it.

If there were a central location to buy things, that'd just cause rampant flipping. Yes, other MMOs do it... because that's how they were built. ESO was built with small guild traders, so if they overnight went to a central auction house, then the players aren't going to change their playstyle overnight. You'd have people write addons to purchase every [item X] on the house instantly so they could list them all for 3x the price... and now they can corner the market in seconds instead of having to spend hours running between locations.

Yes, people can manipulate the market and prices on ESO's current system. But it takes a lot more time and coordination than trying to do so on a central system, where the only thing stopping them from doing so is the amount of gold they have (and PC players tend to have a lot)

As a flipper that literally made billions off the current system and as a flipper that has made billions off a central AH in other games guess which one is easier?

If you guessed a central AH then you guessed wrong. With a central AH the people selling items can view a sale history. The sale history infirms them that X item is worth 10,000 gold. So they want to sell X item for 8,000 gold just to sell it quick. So I flip that because I can afford to wait but I pay a fee to list it or a % after the sale so I really only make 1,500 of said item. For those who argue "but you can corner the market" and the truth behind it is maybe? But what is stopping my competitors from non stop undercutting. Now I'm in a jam be a use people are driving my item down. So now I spent 8,000 to flip and say the item gets to 6,000. I now have to decide do I keep buying the items and show on the log I paid 6,000 and trying to jack up the price? Or do I take my loss and move on?

But with the current system I know exactly what's worth the most in main city traders. So I travel the world and I find an amazing item listed for 1,000 because the poster has zero clue it's worth anything. Now I take that item and I sell it for 100,000k making me 99,000k profit..... How do I know this works? Because I made billions super fast off it. Me and my wife constantly cornered the pvp gear community on traders taking advantage of players trying to make a quick buck selling for more than the vendor gave because they have no idea at all they are sitting on a great selling item. The idea that they have zero clue what an item is worth is what provides me the opportunity to completely take advantage of them. Like said earlier if there was even a vendor to search the "price of the item before it's placed on the trader it prevents flippers from taking full advantage of benefiting. The current system is literally designed to make the rich richer. And that is the real reason people don't want change because they are super greedy.

Twohothardware

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I definetly think that a TTC-esque 'finder' feature should be added. If you're looking for a rarer item specifically, it's not going to work to visit every trader. I'd love to have that, and it's be a massive help for people who don't (or can't) use addons.

However, I don't think we should be able to buy anything we want from a central location. Once you 'srcy' (or whatever) for the item you need, you should still have to go there to get it.

If there were a central location to buy things, that'd just cause rampant flipping. Yes, other MMOs do it... because that's how they were built. ESO was built with small guild traders, so if they overnight went to a central auction house, then the players aren't going to change their playstyle overnight. You'd have people write addons to purchase every [item X] on the house instantly so they could list them all for 3x the price... and now they can corner the market in seconds instead of having to spend hours running between locations.

Yes, people can manipulate the market and prices on ESO's current system. But it takes a lot more time and coordination than trying to do so on a central system, where the only thing stopping them from doing so is the amount of gold they have (and PC players tend to have a lot)

As a flipper that literally made billions off the current system and as a flipper that has made billions off a central AH in other games guess which one is easier?

If you guessed a central AH then you guessed wrong. With a central AH the people selling items can view a sale history. The sale history infirms them that X item is worth 10,000 gold. So they want to sell X item for 8,000 gold just to sell it quick. So I flip that because I can afford to wait but I pay a fee to list it or a % after the sale so I really only make 1,500 of said item. For those who argue "but you can corner the market" and the truth behind it is maybe? But what is stopping my competitors from non stop undercutting. Now I'm in a jam be a use people are driving my item down. So now I spent 8,000 to flip and say the item gets to 6,000. I now have to decide do I keep buying the items and show on the log I paid 6,000 and trying to jack up the price? Or do I take my loss and move on?

But with the current system I know exactly what's worth the most in main city traders. So I travel the world and I find an amazing item listed for 1,000 because the poster has zero clue it's worth anything. Now I take that item and I sell it for 100,000k making me 99,000k profit..... How do I know this works? Because I made billions super fast off it. Me and my wife constantly cornered the pvp gear community on traders taking advantage of players trying to make a quick buck selling for more than the vendor gave because they have no idea at all they are sitting on a great selling item. The idea that they have zero clue what an item is worth is what provides me the opportunity to completely take advantage of them. Like said earlier if there was even a vendor to search the "price of the item before it's placed on the trader it prevents flippers from taking full advantage of benefiting. The current system is literally designed to make the rich richer. And that is the real reason people don't want change because they are super greedy.

This. The current trader system only benefits a few rich guilds in the largest trading zones who are able to afford to pay millions per week to win the trader bid. The traders in all the other zones get almost zero traffic except by people scooping up items for considerably less than they are worth and then relisting them in a trader in Mournhold.

I understand we need a gold sink in the game for those that have large pockets but an Auction House would be a considerable improvement over what we have now for the majority ESO population.

ComboBreaker88

@ZOS_Kevin hasn't this whole idea been shut down? Why is this debate allowed to carry on when it has been made clear over the last 10 years that the current guild system will not change and most have no desire to see it changed?

Twohothardware

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin hasn't this whole idea been shut down? Why is this debate allowed to carry on when it has been made clear over the last 10 years that the current guild system will not change and most have no desire to see it changed?

They haven't added spellcrafting in the last 10 years either and it wasn't expected to ever be added but now all the hype around this reveal is whether or not we're getting spellcrafting.

Just because ZOS made bad decisions in the past doesn't mean they can't change directions now.

kargen27

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

That is simply not true. You cannot find all things, at least not with the gold most have. I am not talking about the really rare motifs, but specific items that are normally not as expensive, but that are not actively listed.

It definitely does not work on console where you can spend hours or even days going from trader to trader looking for a specific item. I have done so and it is not a value part of the game.

Why are you so opposed to changes if you note some skip that part anyway? Some of those are properly skipping it because of the hassle as things are now.

What item is it you need that you can't find/afford? There is a difference in need and want. I clearly differentiated in the two saying you could get all that you need and most of what you want. That is true. And the stuff you want but can't find you can obtain through playing the game if you wish.
I'm not opposed to changes. I even suggested a change. I am opposed to taking away a part of the game many people enjoy. I really dislike the card game but knowing others enjoy it I would never ask the card game be removed. You are asking for a portion of the game that people enjoy be removed from the game because it is something you don't enjoy.

Had the game started with a central location it would probably have been workable. Prices for rare items would be much higher and common items would be near vendor prices but it would be workable. Switching now would be devastating to the economy and you might not believe it but there would be a large number of players leave the game if the current trade system were drastically changed.

Jimbru

ESO basically needs to steal the Guild Wars 2 Trading Post. It's a central trading system, but with several neat features that make it work better than most other MMOs I've seen.

- It allows buyers to either place bids on items for sale, or buy outright for the listed price.
- It allows sellers to either list items for a particular price, or to match a buyer's bid price.
- It includes optional underbidding when listing items, to increase competition and reduce inflation.
- It includes an in-game crowns-gold currency exchange with a floating exchange rate based on demand. This kills illegal currency sellers and scammers, provides a safe way to buy crowns with gold in game or vice versa, enables players with low real-life income to buy crowns with gold, and adds another dynamic level to the game economy.

Northwold

(Deleted what I wrote. Discussions of trading can occasionally put me in a bad mood.)

Kidgangster101

kargen27 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

That is simply not true. You cannot find all things, at least not with the gold most have. I am not talking about the really rare motifs, but specific items that are normally not as expensive, but that are not actively listed.

It definitely does not work on console where you can spend hours or even days going from trader to trader looking for a specific item. I have done so and it is not a value part of the game.

Why are you so opposed to changes if you note some skip that part anyway? Some of those are properly skipping it because of the hassle as things are now.

What item is it you need that you can't find/afford? There is a difference in need and want. I clearly differentiated in the two saying you could get all that you need and most of what you want. That is true. And the stuff you want but can't find you can obtain through playing the game if you wish.
I'm not opposed to changes. I even suggested a change. I am opposed to taking away a part of the game many people enjoy. I really dislike the card game but knowing others enjoy it I would never ask the card game be removed. You are asking for a portion of the game that people enjoy be removed from the game because it is something you don't enjoy.

Had the game started with a central location it would probably have been workable. Prices for rare items would be much higher and common items would be near vendor prices but it would be workable. Switching now would be devastating to the economy and you might not believe it but there would be a large number of players leave the game if the current trade system were drastically changed.

So all the players that abuse the system would leave the game? Again just refer to my post up a bit more. People keep claiming prices would sky rocket but your forgetting that a central AH goes the other way too because now ALL THE PLAYERS that just vendor items would be placing them up for auction. So if more items become more available to the general public tell me again how intro to economics classes can't be applied? If you open up the ability to supply more goods then the cost of those goods go down.

A lot of people left this game because of the trading system. This game in np way shape or form is a hardcore MMO it is more casual. So casual players on average play a lot less, let's say they want a motif style, they have to travel to EVERY trader in the game to search for that motif and sometimes there is none posted anywhere in the world, but how would they have known? So rather than playing the game they spent their entire play session being frustrated and accomplished nothing. So now tomorrow they have to decide do I want to load in for the motif or play? Or option 3 is they were so frustrated that in year 2024 there isn't a better way to quickly play and "play how you want" when many other games have an easy way to search and move on.

Just saying people that would leave over a change to this system are the same people that exploit the current mechanics where the rich get richer. People like me can still corner markets and I can really only do it because of the design of this system.

Nestor

10 years on, the reason this game has a vibrant economy is due to the guild trader system.

Are there things to improve? Yes. More kiosks, get rid of TTC API Hooks, more listings per player.

FlopsyPrince

reazea wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i gave an answer that closes the discussion.
ttc functionality built into the game , still keep the sellers as they are but stops forcing you to spend time going around to each to look if you do not have access to ttc.

Everyone who has internet access has acess to TTC. So that means everyone has access to TTC doesn't it?

No, while it lists things on console, it is not properly updated for them. Nor are listing on TTC even truly accurate on the PC.

kargen27 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The current system is very broken if it is "working as intended". I don't use TTC for the best "bargains" I use it to help find (on the PC) things I am looking for, such as a motif I need for a Master Crafting Writ. The current system is a huge failure for that, though TTC will at least tell me a reasonable price (only on the PC).

The current system means most don't bother with much trading, especially on consoles, even if they are in a trading guild, as I am. (Dipping my toe back into both console and PC now.)

Why would allowing knowing the going price and locations for items break the game, except for those who focus mostly on flipping poor pricing decisions by others?

I also notice you ignored my comment about having a gold sink "helper" to task with getting an item for you."

The system not working as you wish doesn't mean the system is broken. Every player can get every item they need and almost any item they want. The market stays fluid and vibrant. Prices change as supply and demand changes. The economy is healthy.

That is simply not true. You cannot find all things, at least not with the gold most have. I am not talking about the really rare motifs, but specific items that are normally not as expensive, but that are not actively listed.

It definitely does not work on console where you can spend hours or even days going from trader to trader looking for a specific item. I have done so and it is not a value part of the game.

Why are you so opposed to changes if you note some skip that part anyway? Some of those are properly skipping it because of the hassle as things are now.

Why would getting rid of Cyrodiil break the game except for those that PvP? Knowing prices would break the game for the players that enjoy flipping items. It is a major part of the game for those players. Why take that away from them just to convenience players that don't wish to participate in the trading system? Especially why take it away from players when the result would be a damaged economy and rampant in game inflation?

Not sure what this has to do with the topic?

Where am I asking that anything be taken away? I simply want a way to find where something is and possibly even pay a slight fee for a "helper" to go get it for me.

That's what happens when you play a game designed for PC on a gamebox. That's the choice those who play on gameboxes make when they decide to play on a gamebox.

This would not be true if a way to find things and reasonable prices was built into the game. The devs should provide this, not rely on addon devs for key functionality.

FlopsyPrince

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin hasn't this whole idea been shut down? Why is this debate allowed to carry on when it has been made clear over the last 10 years that the current guild system will not change and most have no desire to see it changed?

I would point you to the "harder overland" thread to counter your claim.

kargen27

The current system is very broken if it is "working as intended". I don't use TTC for the best "bargains" I use it to help find (on the PC) things I am looking for, such as a motif I need for a Master Crafting Writ. The current system is a huge failure for that, though TTC will at least tell me a reasonable price (only on the PC).

The current system means most don't bother with much trading, especially on consoles, even if they are in a trading guild, as I am. (Dipping my toe back into both console and PC now.)

Why would allowing knowing the going price and locations for items break the game, except for those who focus mostly on flipping poor pricing decisions by others?

I also notice you ignored my comment about having a gold sink "helper" to task with getting an item for you.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

I'd like one too, I even suggested in the past putting it in Fargrave bazaar and making Fargrave a zone free for all players.

Be careful what you ask for. If you think inflation and prices are bad now, it would be 10x worse with a central auction house. A central auction house is a horrible idea. The only way it would work, as another poster pointed out, is if ZOS set the sale prices of items and the players had no way to game the system.

Have you ever played a game with a central AH? Your claims simply are not true in those games. Why would they be true in ESO? A central trader will not happen, but not because of this reason but because of the gold sink aspect the current system provides. Making TTC functionality in the game and open to all would fix much of the problem right away. Flippers might get hurt some, but even then I suspect people will poorly price things as I have seen in other games, keeping flippers busy if not focused differently.


========

Overall, this is at least as serious of a concern as the difficulty of open world content (which has its own thread) since it has posters on both sides anytime the issue comes up.

I personally bet those who say "the perfect system is just fine" either benefit greatly from it or would say that about any other quality of life change, such as crafting prior to multi-crafting. (Or the fileting that is now added to the provisioning locations.)

Yeah, the game worked prior to those improvements, but it was not as good.[/quote]

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

That is simply not true. You cannot find all things, at least not with the gold most have. I am not talking about the really rare motifs, but specific items that are normally not as expensive, but that are not actively listed.

It definitely does not work on console where you can spend hours or even days going from trader to trader looking for a specific item. I have done so and it is not a value part of the game.

Why are you so opposed to changes if you note some skip that part anyway? Some of those are properly skipping it because of the hassle as things are now.

What item is it you need that you can't find/afford? There is a difference in need and want. I clearly differentiated in the two saying you could get all that you need and most of what you want. That is true. And the stuff you want but can't find you can obtain through playing the game if you wish.
I'm not opposed to changes. I even suggested a change. I am opposed to taking away a part of the game many people enjoy. I really dislike the card game but knowing others enjoy it I would never ask the card game be removed. You are asking for a portion of the game that people enjoy be removed from the game because it is something you don't enjoy.

Had the game started with a central location it would probably have been workable. Prices for rare items would be much higher and common items would be near vendor prices but it would be workable. Switching now would be devastating to the economy and you might not believe it but there would be a large number of players leave the game if the current trade system were drastically changed.

So all the players that abuse the system would leave the game? Again just refer to my post up a bit more. People keep claiming prices would sky rocket but your forgetting that a central AH goes the other way too because now ALL THE PLAYERS that just vendor items would be placing them up for auction. So if more items become more available to the general public tell me again how intro to economics classes can't be applied? If you open up the ability to supply more goods then the cost of those goods go down.

A lot of people left this game because of the trading system. This game in np way shape or form is a hardcore MMO it is more casual. So casual players on average play a lot less, let's say they want a motif style, they have to travel to EVERY trader in the game to search for that motif and sometimes there is none posted anywhere in the world, but how would they have known? So rather than playing the game they spent their entire play session being frustrated and accomplished nothing. So now tomorrow they have to decide do I want to load in for the motif or play? Or option 3 is they were so frustrated that in year 2024 there isn't a better way to quickly play and "play how you want" when many other games have an easy way to search and move on.

Just saying people that would leave over a change to this system are the same people that exploit the current mechanics where the rich get richer. People like me can still corner markets and I can really only do it because of the design of this system.

There is no abuse of the system. Prices on rare items would skyrocket. They are rare meaning the supply would stay about the same as now. It would be easy for two or three players to sit on the auction house and purchase let's say for example all the perfect roe that show up. With the system we have now they have to try and keep an eye on over 200 traders. With a central system they only need to watch the one.
More common items would drop in price near vendor prices because as you say there would be more. Supply would be greater than demand. You are not going to see a sudden uptick in supply of rare motifs. So your supply increase would lower prices only on the more common items hurting players that in the current system are able to make some gold posting those common items.
New and casual players get hurt on both ends. Harder to make gold on the common items and rarer items they might want will cost more gold.
Casual players can purchase everything they need at a decent price. Casual players can also purchase or farm almost everything they want. Needs are completely met and most wants are obtainable. The market is fluid and prices adjust based on supply and demand just like any healthy market would.
A casual player isn't going to be able to afford a rare item if there were a central market system. Prices would increase beyond their means. There have been ideas suggested that would make it easier to find items without drastically altering the system we have now. Switching to a central market now would devastate the market beyond repair. With the gold players have in game now there would be nothing stopping a few players from monopolizing many rare items.

There is no exploitation of the market now. There are flippers that spend time looking for bargains. Thing is the player that originally posted the item gets the price they asked the flipper is able to make some gold and the end buyer has an item that might otherwise not been available. Everybody involved got what they wanted at a price they were happy/willing to pay.

You can't corner the market. Players with many many millions of gold tried and the best they could do was raise the prices on an item new to the game for a few hours. Most that tried ended up losing gold. You can't watch 200 traders and there is no add-on that gives you real time listings. Even with a team of people you are not going to be able to corner the market no matter how much gold you have.
With a central system it would be simple though to monopolize rare items.

FlopsyPrince

Nestor wrote: »

10 years on, the reason this game has a vibrant economy is due to the guild trader system.

Are there things to improve? Yes. More kiosks, get rid of TTC API Hooks, more listings per player.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

It is far more likely the system continued in spite of this system.

Remember that correlation does not prove causation.

Northwold

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin hasn't this whole idea been shut down? Why is this debate allowed to carry on when it has been made clear over the last 10 years that the current guild system will not change and most have no desire to see it changed?

There aren't that many systems in the game that can touch on almost all aspects of gameplay (see my post above on the oft-repeated but fundamentally nonsensical attempts to argue that trading is just like trials).

But if I try to think of systems that have similar impacts a couple spring to mind: crafting and champion points. Obviously, they're not perfect comparators (particularly CPS). But both reach into many, many other aspects of gameplay rather than being merely gameplay mechanics that stand alone.

Both have been altered multiple times in response to player feedback and to ensure, in another oft-repeated slogan, the continuing "health of the game".

I really think ZOS need to surrender their sacred cow on the trading setup one way or another. There are two fundamental problems:

(1) People can't find anything because of the lack of a central, or at least regional database.

(2) Any sensible selling mechanic (ie not spamming zone chat until players start reporting you for abuse) is gated behind membership of a player-administered guild.

These problems turn people off, not just trading, but ESO *as a game* because of the fundamental importance of trading to all aspects of gameplay in an MMO. If you don't trade, at a certain point ESO isn't a game any more. It becomes a grind simulator that is wholly unenjoyable and inexplicably borked to play. Players -- *of all types* -- need to be able to engage with the trading system effectively.

Some people on this forum claim players would leave in droves if the system were changed in any way. Quite frankly, I don't believe them and I think that suggestion is self-serving and completely made up. The loss of a few trading whales, even if it really happened, is a drop in the ocean.

Meanwhile, new players and people who dabble in ESO *are* likely to be turned off by the jankiness of the trading system and the unnecessary hoops put in the way of accessing it. And that loss of potential new players, and casual players who see no reason to hang around, is likely to be *far* more damaging to the long term viability of any MMO than the theorised loss of a few veterans wedded to the status quo.

When I posted on this issue on Reddit the response -- out of thousands of players, not tens as appears to happen here -- to making some alterations to the trading system that would not fundamentally break the guild trader setup was about 50:50, not the 20:80 we seem to get here because of the way this forum's profile of users skews to very hardcore players. And, honestly, a good number of the 50 against didn't seem to understand what was being proposed and resorted to reactionary responses that didn't follow from the change suggested ("trading is just like trials" made a cameo appearance).

How does trading get addressed? I don't know.

Maybe it's regional bulletin boards as, if I remember rightly, has been suggested by kargen27. This would at least speed up item discovery, work on consoles, and remove the truly bizarre situation where the design of trading in ESO is only sensibly usable to buy things because of a third party unofficial website.

Maybe it's also maintaining the guild trader setup and adding in highly crippled non-guild traders with whom any player, regardless of guild membership, can sell items subject to heavy limitations. Think higher taxes on sales, a lower item limit on sales, etc. Think, even, a wealth gate: you can only use these traders if you have less than (for example) a million account gold.

Such "pauper" traders are an option I am very strongly in favour of because I am the kind of casual player who simply won't engage with a guild-gate. (It's worth remembering that a "casual" player is *not* someone who logs in every day, as has sometimes been assumed in this forum, or even necessarily every week.)

A pure auction house system does look unlikely because ZOS are wedded to the particular character of the trader system (and, indeed, because of the gold sink issue). But that is not a reason to ignore all the problems its current implementation creates.

For a large subset of the player base, the trading system contributes to the game being an utter bore to play.

That is not good for more casual gamers. For some players at the end game, it can contribute to ESO never being worth playing except when a chapter is out because grinding through other activities in the game, like housing, crafting gear to do dungeons, etc, without easier access to the economy gets so incredibly tedious. It is also not good for new players giving ESO a few days to see whether they like it or not.

Fundamentally, it is bad for keeping in play the new and non-hardcore players that *any* MMO *must* attract and retain to keep the player base vibrant.

I do think changes are needed. And I think they are possible through solutions that are realistic compromises which do not undermine the fundamental character of the player economy. The system does not work as well as it needs to. ESO has so prioritised making trading work as a minigame that it appears to forget what trading is actually *for*. As a functional system, it is completely inadequate.

BlueRaven

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

10 years on, the reason this game has a vibrant economy is due to the guild trader system.

Are there things to improve? Yes. More kiosks, get rid of TTC API Hooks, more listings per player.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

It is far more likely the system continued in spite of this system.

Remember that correlation does not prove causation.

Well the evidence is in the game…

200+ different vendor locations makes it super difficult to control prices. (Central vendors makes it super easy for bots to flip goods to higher prices.)

And 200+ different vendors means that there are 200+ guilds participating, so it’s pretty easy to find a guild that is a right fit for you. (Stripping away a need for guilds, strips away a source for players to make friends. Players without other friends playing have a higher risk of leaving the game.)

200+ different vendors also makes people move through the world, maybe to zones they would normally skip. Suddenly a new place that seems interesting might be worthy of questing. (A central vendor removes the need to visit areas, which also lessens the need for ESO+.)

200+ different vendor locations also makes those zones populated with travelers who may have already quested through the area. (Everyone will be crowded around hub locations, unmoving, while other zones will appear dead. There is a reason why some vendors are in out of the way places.)

Pixiepumpkin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Well the evidence is in the game…

WoW has a central auction house and there has never been an issue of corning the market on goods.

BlueRaven wrote: »

200+ different vendor locations makes it super difficult to control prices. (Central vendors makes it super easy for bots to flip goods to higher prices.)

Except addons allow for people who want to control prices the ability to do so. TTC itself is essentially a central auction house, but it takes place out of game and a game should never ask you to tab out to take care of in game activities.

BlueRaven wrote: »

And 200+ different vendors means that there are 200+ guilds participating, so it’s pretty easy to find a guild that is a right fit for you. (Stripping away a need for guilds, strips away a source for players to make friends. Players without other friends playing have a higher risk of leaving the game.)

Except trying to sell your goods in far away places, even at lower prices will often yield no sales. I constantly sell more at my big city trader than I do with my other 3, even when they have lower prices. This means in order to actually move stuff (unless you are selling it at a cut rate price, which a flipper then buys), you have to pay to be in a top tier trading guild.

BlueRaven wrote: »

200+ different vendors also makes people move through the world, maybe to zones they would normally skip. Suddenly a new place that seems interesting might be worthy of questing. (A central vendor removes the need to visit areas, which also lessens the need for ESO+.)

But again, Wow, New World, SWTOR all have central auction houses and that has not stopped anyone from moving through zones.

BlueRaven wrote: »

200+ different vendor locations also makes those zones populated with travelers who may have already quested through the area. (Everyone will be crowded around hub locations, unmoving, while other zones will appear dead. There is a reason why some vendors are in out of the way places.)

So the reason for guild traders is to give the illusion of a healthy thriving population? Becuase if the population is healthy, there is no reason to push people to zones outside of the zone content itself.


EDIT to add...

There seems to be a disconnect or a lack of imagination. There is no reason that there can't be 300 central auction house locations, brining people out all over Tamriel. There does not need to be one physical location but rather, the trade post should all be linked.

BlueRaven

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Well the evidence is in the game…

WoW has a central auction house and there has never been an issue of corning the market on goods.

BlueRaven wrote: »

200+ different vendor locations makes it super difficult to control prices. (Central vendors makes it super easy for bots to flip goods to higher prices.)

Except addons allow for people who want to control prices the ability to do so. TTC itself is essentially a central auction house, but it takes place out of game and a game should never ask you to tab out to take care of in game activities.

BlueRaven wrote: »

And 200+ different vendors means that there are 200+ guilds participating, so it’s pretty easy to find a guild that is a right fit for you. (Stripping away a need for guilds, strips away a source for players to make friends. Players without other friends playing have a higher risk of leaving the game.)

Except trying to sell your goods in far away places, even at lower prices will often yield no sales. I constantly sell more at my big city trader than I do with my other 3, even when they have lower prices. This means in order to actually move stuff (unless you are selling it at a cut rate price, which a flipper then buys), you have to pay to be in a top tier trading guild.

BlueRaven wrote: »

200+ different vendors also makes people move through the world, maybe to zones they would normally skip. Suddenly a new place that seems interesting might be worthy of questing. (A central vendor removes the need to visit areas, which also lessens the need for ESO+.)

But again, Wow, New World, SWTOR all have central auction houses and that has not stopped anyone from moving through zones.

BlueRaven wrote: »

200+ different vendor locations also makes those zones populated with travelers who may have already quested through the area. (Everyone will be crowded around hub locations, unmoving, while other zones will appear dead. There is a reason why some vendors are in out of the way places.)

So the reason for guild traders is to give the illusion of a healthy thriving population? Becuase if the population is healthy, there is no reason to push people to zones outside of the zone content itself.


EDIT to add...

There seems to be a disconnect or a lack of imagination. There is no reason that there can't be 300 central auction house locations, brining people out all over Tamriel. There does not need to be one physical location but rather, the trade post should all be linked.

A) That was hilariously untrue for wow. Goods were either dirt cheap for common items or sky high and all mysteriously sold by the same person with a bizarre name. Odd…

B ) Look to consoles then. And ttc is nearly always out of date for things to find things. Ttc is at best a guide for selling, as it gives accurate-ish selling advice for pricing. Many players on pc don’t even use it because it is too bloated. Ttc addon throws a ton of info at you, you have to learn how to use, it does not do the work for you.

C) I did not say stop, I said not give them a reason to. Also ESO “sells” zones. And compare the crowds in org/sw vs gagetzhan. Why go to there if they don’t have to leave a cap city? And “illusion of a healthy…” Loaded word. It is not an illusion.
Having tons of the same store does not make people spread out.

Lastly; guilds are important. Zos needs to support them, not lessen the need for them.

Pixiepumpkin

BlueRaven wrote: »

A) That was hilariously untrue for wow. Goods were either dirt cheap for common items or sky high and all mysteriously sold by the same person with a bizarre name. Odd…

I played on multiple high pop servers. Emerald Dream, Tichondrius, Sargers, Wyrmrest Accord among others and I never witnessed what you say to be true, in fact it's no different here. The only difference here is that players are forced into wasting a lot of time travelling.

BlueRaven wrote: »

B ) Look to consoles then. And ttc is nearly always out of date for things to find things. Ttc is at best a guide for selling, as it gives accurate-ish selling advice for pricing. Many players on pc don’t even use it because it is too bloated. Ttc addon throws a ton of info at you, you have to learn how to use, it does not do the work for you.

And yet it stills functions as a central location for all goods...ergo, a central auction house. The difference is that SOME get to use it, but not all.

Its nopt exactly fair.

BlueRaven wrote: »

C) I did not say stop, I said not give them a reason to. Also ESO “sells” zones. And compare the crowds in org/sw vs gagetzhan. Why go to there if they don’t have to leave a cap city? And “illusion of a healthy…” Loaded word. It is not an illusion.

There are always going to be more people in the main cities vs far out areas...that is no different here. In fact its exactly like wow, swtor, GW2, etc. Guild traders have little to do with it.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Having tons of the same store does not make people spread out.

And people are not spread out now. Most of the GT sales come from major cities, not the small trader off the beaten path who has 97 items listed.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Lastly; guilds are important. Zos needs to support them, not lessen the need for them.

Then they should get creative and find ways of supporting guilds that are not trade based.

[snip]
[edited for minor baiting]