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Can we please get a Auction House?

  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    Tradewind wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    That is very incorrect. A lot of people play MMORPGs for the purpose of collecting gold. It may be worthless outside of the game, but that pretty much applies to everything in the game. Even Achievements are worthless once you get away from the server that stores them.

    I am a strong proponent of guild based local commerce. I see no need for Amazon in the game, and I agree with Varanis in that I don't think the ESO server could handle such a thing.

    Then why does Zenimax allow websites like TTC act like Amazon? Why do they permit them to share the location of the items?!

    Allowing sites to collect and aggregate data then present it is not the same as putting that functionality into the game themselves. Besides, TTC is not a real time data source and should be considered always out of date with actual trader inventory.
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • Tradewind
    Tradewind
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Allowing sites to collect and aggregate data then present it is not the same as putting that functionality into the game themselves. Besides, TTC is not a real time data source and should be considered always out of date with actual trader inventory.

    1qaw0c2gdcar.png

    Ok. I do(don't) understand your point, because TTC is not like Amazon or an auction house at all; it is something very different.
    Edited by Tradewind on May 19, 2023 11:44AM
  • Northwold
    Northwold
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    Tradewind wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    Allowing sites to collect and aggregate data then present it is not the same as putting that functionality into the game themselves. Besides, TTC is not a real time data source and should be considered always out of date with actual trader inventory.

    1qaw0c2gdcar.png

    Ok. I do(don't) understand your point.

    TTC can only present you with the one-off data it gets at the time that someone with the addon looks in a guild store for something. So it's incomplete data and rarely fully up to date. But I agree with you. It's a distinction without a difference to say that a third party doing it in some way changes things. If ZOS didn't want it, they would ban it, as has happened with certain botting tools.
    Edited by Northwold on May 19, 2023 11:49AM
  • Tradewind
    Tradewind
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    Northwold wrote: »
    TTC can only present you with the data it gets whenever someone with the addon looks in a guild store for something.
    So it's incomplete data and rarely fully up to date. But I agree with you. It's a distinction without a difference to say that a third party doing it in some way changes things. If ZOS didn't want it, they would ban it, as has happened with certain botting tools.

    What's your purpose in making guild stores for guild members only? Why not make them for everyone? – sliyerking

    Zenimax say: "...but not to have a system that allows you to find anything at any time..." ... But TTC....i mean... ok.
  • Northwold
    Northwold
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    Tradewind wrote: »
    Northwold wrote: »
    TTC can only present you with the data it gets whenever someone with the addon looks in a guild store for something.
    So it's incomplete data and rarely fully up to date. But I agree with you. It's a distinction without a difference to say that a third party doing it in some way changes things. If ZOS didn't want it, they would ban it, as has happened with certain botting tools.

    What's your purpose in making guild stores for guild members only? Why not make them for everyone? – sliyerking

    Zenimax say: "...but not to have a system that allows you to find anything at any time..." ... But TTC....i mean... ok.

    Yes I agree with you. Made a very long post above, but I don't think ZOS's ideals for what they wanted the trading system to be really line up with what *players* want from a trading system, and I'm not even sure they made sense even on their own terms.

    Indeed, if the trading system functioned exactly the way ZOS seem to have idealised it in their minds without help from things like TTC, things like master writs would become unplayable in the game. I mean, you'd have to have been playing the game for a decade to even bother contemplating them with their crazy large range of styles because there's no way on earth you'd ever find the motifs you need with the trading system they supposedly intended.
    Edited by Northwold on May 19, 2023 11:55AM
  • Tradewind
    Tradewind
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    Players need to focus more on the answers provided by ZeniMax and the actions they take. Only then will things "maybe" start to make some sense. The words versus actions from ZeniMax are completely unbalanced.
  • Lumenn
    Lumenn
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    Cheveyo wrote: »
    TaSheen wrote: »
    If ZOS moved to a centralized AH from the current guild trader setup, the exodus of guilds would probably be likened to a tsunami....


    I doubt that. Nobody plays MMOs to rack up billions of in game gold that's worthless outside of the game.

    I have yet to play ANY online game where in game gold is worthless outside the game. Even eldin ring had sites up pretty quick. For the majority of us, yes, it may be worthless, but to some it's worth quite a bit. And that's with ANY system unless everything is no drop(bound, not tradable). It's an ugly truth, but still true.

    Edited by Lumenn on May 19, 2023 12:05PM
  • danno8
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    Tradewind wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    Allowing sites to collect and aggregate data then present it is not the same as putting that functionality into the game themselves. Besides, TTC is not a real time data source and should be considered always out of date with actual trader inventory.

    1qaw0c2gdcar.png

    Ok. I do(don't) understand your point, because TTC is not like Amazon or an auction house at all; it is something very different.

    I am not sure if you know exactly how TTC works. It needs to run a client side program in order for price listings to be scanned and uploaded and the listings are only uploaded once you either change zones or do a manual /reloadui.

    It also only scans the pages you view, unless you sit there and hit the "scan all items" button and wait five minutes.

    The listings you see as "now" on the website means the information was uploaded "now". It does not know when it was scanned. It could already be several minutes or even hours out of date. It could have sold already. You truly do not know until you go and visit the trader yourself.

    As anyone who regularily uses the site can tell you, just because the listing says it is "now" or "1 minute ago" it does not guarantee that you will get that item.

    TTC can save you hours of running around wasting your time searching for items that were never even available at the traders you are visiting, but it does not "allow you to find any item at any time" like ZoS stated as a reason for no auction house. It can just steer you in the right direction.
  • Holycannoli
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    If TTC is popular and gives the functionality of an auction house, why not just have an auction house?

    Because guild traders are this game's gold sink. There is no other consistent gold sink.

    I still want an auction house though. I don't bother with guild traders.
  • ADarklore
    ADarklore
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    As someone who uses TTC whenever I need to find something specific, I can attest to the fact that the information can be quickly out of date. I don't know how many times I see something listed, rush off to the trader, only to find that it's already gone.

    I don't find shopping guild traders to be a big problem. It's easy to hop to wayshrines in major cities and quickly browse the guild traders. I actually belong to five guild traders and make a LOT of gold just by spending a short amount of time farming mats and selling them.

    ZOS had also mentioned that, just like with making assistants offer full service, that it would make cities irrelevant to the game... so they want to have people actually have a reason for going into cities and keeping them 'active'. I'm just not a fan of the far-flung traders in the middle of nowhere... it would be nice if they'd just keep traders in major cities so that it's more convenient to browse them.
    CP: 1950 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Sorcerer ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Tradewind wrote: »
    What's your purpose in making guild stores for guild members only? Why not make them for everyone? – sliyerking

    Dev/Zenimax reply:
    "Our goal is to make the economy more player-based, but not to have a system that allows you to find anything at any time because there are so many players involved on a megaserver. With extremely large communities, low-percentage drops can become highly available in auction houses. It ends up harming the “gear chase” portion of the game."

    My question is: Then why can players use websites like TTC? Zenimax doesn't want to add certain QoL in the game, yet they provide the tools for others to create them.

    If an auction house can "end up harming the gear chase portion of the game," doesn't TTC do the same? Moreover, since TTC earns real-life money through advertising on the page, isn't it more detrimental than an in-game auction house?

    Allowing websites like TTC to share the price of items seems okay, but allowing them to share the location?! Why? If ZeniMax says this would "end up harming the gear chase portion of the game"?

    I am having difficulty understanding the multitude of answers\actions provided by Zenimax regarding various topics, as they do not seem to make any sense.


    The quote you cited was ZoS explaining why they didn't have public guild traders.

    I.e., they changed their mind.
  • Lumsdenml
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    Oh, please no. All day no. People think that inflation is high now, just wait until all someone has to do is go to one auction house, buy up ALL of a particularly rare item, then post them at 4x the price. There are many things wrong with an auction house that we do not need in eso
    In game ID: @KnightOfTacoma
    Main: Black Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50/CP 2160 Nightblade NA PC - Grand Master Crafter, adventurer and part time ganker. Rank 35 - Palatine Grade 1
    PVP Main:Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Rank 29 - Brigadier Grade 1 - Ravenwatch veteran. Blood for the Pact!
    Guild: The Disenfranchised - ZZ!
    Obituary:
    RIP Priest of Tacoma - EP Lvl 22 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the Garden of Shadows.
    RIP.Viscount of Tacoma - EP Lvl 18 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the war.
    RIP. Squire of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Knahaten Flu.
    RIP Reaper of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Consumption.
    RIP Sovereign of Tacoma - EP Lvl 32 NightBlade NA PC Kyne - Lost at The Battle of Brindle, December 13, 2018.
    RIP Dauphin of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC Kyne - Overdosed on Skooma.
    RIP Wraith of Tacoma - EP Lvl 10 Dragon Knight NA PC - Eaten by a dragon.
    RIP Red Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died at the Battle of Chalmen, March 18th, 2021.
    RIP Maharajah of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Lost in a sandstorm.
    RIP Vampire Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Sorcerer NA PC - Fell asleep in the sun. RIP
  • LalMirchi
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    Auction House === NO! IMHO

    This is a topic that should be pinned.

    I vote NO, the devs also, but it is obviously of importance to a section of the community?
  • XSTRONG
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    Cheveyo wrote: »
    TaSheen wrote: »
    If ZOS moved to a centralized AH from the current guild trader setup, the exodus of guilds would probably be likened to a tsunami....


    I doubt that. Nobody plays MMOs to rack up billions of in game gold that's worthless outside of the game.

    If this was EVE, you'd have a point. But since it's not, you're delusional.

    I think youre wrong there, there is alot of players that play Eso to hoard Gold and not only hoarders many just like to earn alot of gold to spend on crowns/mats/gear etc.

    The system today where guilds hire a trader is fine, sure If you looking for a specifik item you have to run around checking all traders but thats part of the trading system.

    If you looking for something thats not in the big main cities like mournhold, elden root, stormhaven etc its a very rare item youre looking for and no need to get rid of guilds just because there is rare items in game.
  • Jusey1
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    Kusto wrote: »
    Use TTC website.

    It's unreliable and doesn't stay up to date.

    I full on support a Grand Exchange though in ESO. I absolutely hate the current guild system and how much it has negatively affected the ESO player economy. Plus having in-game convenience would just be superior.
  • Jusey1
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    Northwold wrote: »
    Advantages of guild traders

    1. You cannot bargain hunt with centralised or highly concentrated regional auction houses. Because everyone can see the prices in near real time, price competition is less likely. Prices tend to settle to the same level everywhere.

    By having a trading system with lots of little traders, it is possible to find unexpected surprises at reasonable prices. For a time, before TTC picks it up if you're on PC and/or before the flippers swoop.

    So the system does, imperfectly, encourage more price competition than an auction house, which in practice would lead to none.

    This is more of a disadvantage in the long run because it makes prices more exploitable since the people who buy and resell will be using this system to purposely raise prices of items as everyone else will naturally follow suit with the prices that they are doing (mind you, these kind of people does these sales at mass too to make it more like that the prices are naturally going up when they're just forcing it and exploiting the system as a whole).

    Another big disadvantage is that the guilds needs to spend gold for good locations which leads to more of the inflation occurring as trader guilds will be demanding higher and higher prices just to pay for their own auctions over the NPCs, which in turn hurts the economy even more so...

    However, as I said before, I would prefer more of a Grand Exchange system though than an auction house. A single center player where people can buy/sell at any price they request and let the community in completion control the economy rather than the few powerhouses that are exploiting the system. (Granted, this caused the opposite issue of inflation where prices kept going down for many items but I think that would be much more preferred over this constant inflation that has gotten so bad that you absolutely MUST take part in a trader guild to effectively buy stuff from other players, or else just grind out everything yourself which can take days or months depending on what you're trying to get since not everything is curated).
  • Lumsdenml
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    Jusey1 wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    Use TTC website.

    It's unreliable and doesn't stay up to date.

    I full on support a Grand Exchange though in ESO. I absolutely hate the current guild system and how much it has negatively affected the ESO player economy. Plus having in-game convenience would just be superior.

    What systems could be put in place, using a central auction house, to curb monopolization of items as I described above?
    In game ID: @KnightOfTacoma
    Main: Black Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50/CP 2160 Nightblade NA PC - Grand Master Crafter, adventurer and part time ganker. Rank 35 - Palatine Grade 1
    PVP Main:Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Rank 29 - Brigadier Grade 1 - Ravenwatch veteran. Blood for the Pact!
    Guild: The Disenfranchised - ZZ!
    Obituary:
    RIP Priest of Tacoma - EP Lvl 22 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the Garden of Shadows.
    RIP.Viscount of Tacoma - EP Lvl 18 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the war.
    RIP. Squire of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Knahaten Flu.
    RIP Reaper of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Consumption.
    RIP Sovereign of Tacoma - EP Lvl 32 NightBlade NA PC Kyne - Lost at The Battle of Brindle, December 13, 2018.
    RIP Dauphin of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC Kyne - Overdosed on Skooma.
    RIP Wraith of Tacoma - EP Lvl 10 Dragon Knight NA PC - Eaten by a dragon.
    RIP Red Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died at the Battle of Chalmen, March 18th, 2021.
    RIP Maharajah of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Lost in a sandstorm.
    RIP Vampire Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Sorcerer NA PC - Fell asleep in the sun. RIP
  • Jusey1
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    Lumsdenml wrote: »

    What systems could be put in place, using a central auction house, to curb monopolization of items as I described above?

    It would be a lot more community managed instead of being managed by trader guilds + resellers and also remove one of the main reason why inflation has gotten so bad, which is the trader guilds trying to outbid each other for the NPCs in good places.
  • Northwold
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    Jusey1 wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    Use TTC website.

    It's unreliable and doesn't stay up to date.

    I full on support a Grand Exchange though in ESO. I absolutely hate the current guild system and how much it has negatively affected the ESO player economy. Plus having in-game convenience would just be superior.

    Are you able to describe in more detail how a grand exchange works? Don't worry if this is commonly known aside from me! I'm just not familiar with the differences from an auction house.
    Edited by Northwold on May 19, 2023 7:21PM
  • Lumsdenml
    Lumsdenml
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    Jusey1 wrote: »
    Lumsdenml wrote: »

    What systems could be put in place, using a central auction house, to curb monopolization of items as I described above?

    It would be a lot more community managed instead of being managed by trader guilds + resellers and also remove one of the main reason why inflation has gotten so bad, which is the trader guilds trying to outbid each other for the NPCs in good places.

    If I had a lot of gold sitting in my bank and I decided to go to the centralized trading house (or whatever) and I buy up all of Molten War Torte recipes at an average of 16mil a piece. I then proceed to put them all back up at 40mil each. How is the community going to manage that? Now, there is an element of time and effort to do that, because they physically have to find where they are all listed, go to each of the traders where they are listed and buy them. That is a deterrent to this sort of behavior. It won't be a deterrent to 100% of the people who want to do it, but there is a percentage of the people who wouldn't bother in the current system, but would do it if they only had one place to go and could guarantee they would have a 100% monopoly.

    Also, when I put things up to sell on the guild trader, I am not affected at all by how much my guild had to pay to get that trader.
    In game ID: @KnightOfTacoma
    Main: Black Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50/CP 2160 Nightblade NA PC - Grand Master Crafter, adventurer and part time ganker. Rank 35 - Palatine Grade 1
    PVP Main:Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Rank 29 - Brigadier Grade 1 - Ravenwatch veteran. Blood for the Pact!
    Guild: The Disenfranchised - ZZ!
    Obituary:
    RIP Priest of Tacoma - EP Lvl 22 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the Garden of Shadows.
    RIP.Viscount of Tacoma - EP Lvl 18 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the war.
    RIP. Squire of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Knahaten Flu.
    RIP Reaper of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Consumption.
    RIP Sovereign of Tacoma - EP Lvl 32 NightBlade NA PC Kyne - Lost at The Battle of Brindle, December 13, 2018.
    RIP Dauphin of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC Kyne - Overdosed on Skooma.
    RIP Wraith of Tacoma - EP Lvl 10 Dragon Knight NA PC - Eaten by a dragon.
    RIP Red Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died at the Battle of Chalmen, March 18th, 2021.
    RIP Maharajah of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Lost in a sandstorm.
    RIP Vampire Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Sorcerer NA PC - Fell asleep in the sun. RIP
  • Jusey1
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    Lumsdenml wrote: »

    If I had a lot of gold sitting in my bank and I decided to go to the centralized trading house (or whatever) and I buy up all of Molten War Torte recipes at an average of 16mil a piece. I then proceed to put them all back up at 40mil each. How is the community going to manage that? Now, there is an element of time and effort to do that, because they physically have to find where they are all listed, go to each of the traders where they are listed and buy them. That is a deterrent to this sort of behavior. It won't be a deterrent to 100% of the people who want to do it, but there is a percentage of the people who wouldn't bother in the current system, but would do it if they only had one place to go and could guarantee they would have a 100% monopoly.

    Also, when I put things up to sell on the guild trader, I am not affected at all by how much my guild had to pay to get that trader.

    Obviously resellers are still going to attempt things like this but it won't be as effective when you have a more centralize location that anyone can easily access and use. The current system is much easier to controlled because mostly a few guilds and specific groups are controlling everything and steering the economy into whatever direction they wanted, and it's a lot easier to be a reseller in that system as well since you only have to worry about managing the major guild locations (like in Vivec, Mournhold, Wayrest, etc) rather than buying out EVERYONE. That's the big difference here. A central location allows everyone to take part and control while guild systems splits everyone up and even makes it impossible for a lot of the playerbase like newer players or people who just solos and do their own thing to be completely outside of it.
  • Lumsdenml
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    Jusey1 wrote: »
    Lumsdenml wrote: »

    If I had a lot of gold sitting in my bank and I decided to go to the centralized trading house (or whatever) and I buy up all of Molten War Torte recipes at an average of 16mil a piece. I then proceed to put them all back up at 40mil each. How is the community going to manage that? Now, there is an element of time and effort to do that, because they physically have to find where they are all listed, go to each of the traders where they are listed and buy them. That is a deterrent to this sort of behavior. It won't be a deterrent to 100% of the people who want to do it, but there is a percentage of the people who wouldn't bother in the current system, but would do it if they only had one place to go and could guarantee they would have a 100% monopoly.

    Also, when I put things up to sell on the guild trader, I am not affected at all by how much my guild had to pay to get that trader.

    Obviously resellers are still going to attempt things like this but it won't be as effective when you have a more centralize location that anyone can easily access and use. The current system is much easier to controlled because mostly a few guilds and specific groups are controlling everything and steering the economy into whatever direction they wanted, and it's a lot easier to be a reseller in that system as well since you only have to worry about managing the major guild locations (like in Vivec, Mournhold, Wayrest, etc) rather than buying out EVERYONE. That's the big difference here. A central location allows everyone to take part and control while guild systems splits everyone up and even makes it impossible for a lot of the playerbase like newer players or people who just solos and do their own thing to be completely outside of it.

    I'm still not sure how a centralized location makes it harder for one person to gain a monopoly on an item. It is harder for a few guilds and specific groups to control something than a single person.

    Splitting everyone up makes it harder to control, because everyone is split up. The fact that it is harder for people to buy things, or to compare prices, is proof that it is a more resistant system to manipulation.

    Now, I'm not saying that manipulation doesn't happen... I assume it does. I'm saying the more centralized the system, the more easy it is to control and manipulate. This is exactly the reason the current system is in place.
    In game ID: @KnightOfTacoma
    Main: Black Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50/CP 2160 Nightblade NA PC - Grand Master Crafter, adventurer and part time ganker. Rank 35 - Palatine Grade 1
    PVP Main:Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Rank 29 - Brigadier Grade 1 - Ravenwatch veteran. Blood for the Pact!
    Guild: The Disenfranchised - ZZ!
    Obituary:
    RIP Priest of Tacoma - EP Lvl 22 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the Garden of Shadows.
    RIP.Viscount of Tacoma - EP Lvl 18 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the war.
    RIP. Squire of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Knahaten Flu.
    RIP Reaper of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Consumption.
    RIP Sovereign of Tacoma - EP Lvl 32 NightBlade NA PC Kyne - Lost at The Battle of Brindle, December 13, 2018.
    RIP Dauphin of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC Kyne - Overdosed on Skooma.
    RIP Wraith of Tacoma - EP Lvl 10 Dragon Knight NA PC - Eaten by a dragon.
    RIP Red Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died at the Battle of Chalmen, March 18th, 2021.
    RIP Maharajah of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Lost in a sandstorm.
    RIP Vampire Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Sorcerer NA PC - Fell asleep in the sun. RIP
  • kargen27
    kargen27
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    "and it's a lot easier to be a reseller in that system as well since you only have to worry about managing the major guild locations (like in Vivec, Mournhold, Wayrest, etc) rather than buying out EVERYONE."

    That "etc" is close to 100 independent traders that see listings happen almost constantly. You are arguing that it is easier to purchase items from 100 sites than it is to purchase from one. It would take only three or four coordinated players with gold to control any rare or semi rare item they wish. One would always be in the central house scanning prices and would grab them within seconds of them being posted. Sure they might miss one from time to time but that item is still gone. After three or four days of controlling the market they toss out a couple at outrageous prices and see if they sell. If they do not sell a player on the team makes the purchase and that sets the price history. They then reduce their prices a small bit and other players think hey a bargain. Never mind it is still a much much higher price than it was just a week ago.

    "while guild systems splits everyone up and even makes it impossible for a lot of the playerbase like newer players or people who just solos and do their own thing to be completely outside of it."

    Not true unless by choice. Many trade guilds have zero dues and are always searching for members. Some have no requirement to participate in guild activities. I'm in a guild with a trader that only requires you log into the game at least once every two weeks. It is on a 2nd account I created when account wide achievements happened so I could play just one character doing everything. Took me about three months to have six million gold in the bank.
    For people that absolutely refuse to join a guild that is basically a decision they've made for themselves. Joining a guild would not change how they play the game in any way other than providing them a way to sell items outside of zone chat. Nothing else would need to change.

    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Necrotech_Master
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    Northwold wrote: »
    People who keep citing TTC, do remember that it essentially doesn't work for consoles. If you don't believe me run a search on the console side of the site and you'll see the problem : there's virtually no data there.

    I do think the decision to go with guild traders was a very bad one, for a couple of reasons. But there are advantages and many, many people really like it. Personally, I think some steps need to be taken to find a compromise because this is one of the most polarising topics in the game. It aggrieves as many players as it pleases.


    Disadvantages of guild traders

    1. It makes it very difficult for players to find what they're looking for. And, yes, if it's something like tempering alloy, that's less of a problem. But if you're presented with a master writ that requires you to do shoulders in the style of Bogadoodoometh High Priest, for example, and you don't have the motif, you're stuck. You are unlikely ever to find it using the game's trading system.

    So you end up with the really peculiar situation where everyone on PC is using a third party indexing website, without which a fundamentally important system in the game is effectively broken.


    2. Flipping -- that is, players picking up everything that is cheaply priced and immediately putting it back on sale at a much higher price -- rather undercuts the point of having decentralised traders in the first place. Although such activity is made easier with TTC, it is still a problem without it.

    Flipping means that you end up with the same problems as a central auction house, namely homogenised prices with very little price competition, but with all the disadvantages of having to go from trader to trader to hunt for things. It makes ESO's trading system the worst of both worlds.


    3. The requirement to join a player-managed guild gates players' ability to sell things behind the actions of other players. Which, in a really hardcore MMO, would be fine. But this is ESO; the game that from its inception has been marketed just as much to solo Elder Scrolls fans as to people who want to play with other people and, to this day, is still marketed as absolutely great for solo players unless and until they want to do non-solo content.

    The result is that players who do not want to and will not join a guild -- and there are many of them, even if they are relatively underrepresented here -- cannot sell in any sensible way and so can only access the buying side of the player economy.

    If they cannot access the sell side, they are limited in how much they can buy of anything from guild traders because the price they get from selling items in the normal shops in the game is out by a factor of hundreds, and often thousands, from the price players sell things for at guild traders. And this problem will only get worse because prices in the player economy keep inflating, but the prices paid by in-game shops, and the value of loot and rewards in the game, largely stay the same.

    Gating of who can sell also creates problems in terms of the amount of items that are available in the player economy. In other words, supply is artificially restricted. A player who gets that rare motif but who doesn't belong to a trading guild and already has it, will trash that motif. All those raw materials they don't need? They sit in the craft bag or get junked. So materials that other players want go unused (and prices stay higher).


    Advantages of guild traders

    That said, the other side of it is that the trading system clearly has -- or has in principle -- some advantages that many people enjoy, and for those reasons ZOS does not appear minded to change it.


    1. You cannot bargain hunt with centralised or highly concentrated regional auction houses. Because everyone can see the prices in near real time, price competition is less likely. Prices tend to settle to the same level everywhere.

    By having a trading system with lots of little traders, it is possible to find unexpected surprises at reasonable prices. For a time, before TTC picks it up if you're on PC and/or before the flippers swoop.

    So the system does, imperfectly, encourage more price competition than an auction house, which in practice would lead to none.


    2. Some players (although I have to say it can't be that many as there aren't many guild traders in the game, and their importance as a segment of the player base tends to get overemphasised in this forum because hardcore players are over-represented) have made the trading game and running trade guilds *their game* in ESO, and enjoy it.


    Possible changes

    So where does that leave us? Clearly, I see a lot of problems with the game's trading system and would like it changed. But I come at it from the perspective of a solo player. Other people like it a lot. Some ideas that might strike a compromise:


    1. ZOS themselves should maintain a website like TTC.

    It doesn't have to be live. Indeed, it should not be live because then bargain hunting and price competition will never happen. Perhaps such a site on a one-hour delay would satisfy the need for a central index of where to find stuff while maintaining the peculiar charms of the guild trader system.

    But there really is a problem if the only way the trading system can be made to work as players expect is through a third party website. And there is an even bigger problem if people cannot do that at all on consoles. The only people who can get the store listings data on console are ZOS themselves. They should do so.


    2. Restrictions on flipping need to be introduced.

    I'm not saying that flipping should be banned. But there does need to be some thought into how flipping can be toned down a bit because it does make the economy behave as if there were an auction house when there, quite deliberately, isn't. Perhaps a time delay on reselling items via traders, or similar, just to stop flipping happening too quickly and at too-high volumes.


    3. For solo players who do not want to join a guild, the introduction of NPC traders that are automated, rather than managed by player guilds, that anyone can use, but with conditions that make them less beneficial to use than guild traders. For example, higher fees or a lower number of selling slots.

    If such traders could be introduced, solo players would have access to the economy who otherwise would not, but there is no incentive for players who do use guild traders to switch over. You don't destroy guild traders, in other words, but open up the player economy to a different set of players.


    I think it's clear that there is no appetite at ZOS to move the system to an auction house model. But there are ways to make the existing system better that would help more players than they damage. The economy at the moment is very far from perfect.

    flipping and cornering the market would be 1000x worse in a global auction house, its going to be present in any system in which there are multiple people selling the same items

    the guild trader system doesnt block it, but it does make it harder to successfully flip a larger quantity of things
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • kargen27
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    "Another big disadvantage is that the guilds needs to spend gold for good locations which leads to more of the inflation occurring as trader guilds will be demanding higher and higher prices just to pay for their own auctions over the NPCs, which in turn hurts the economy even more so..."

    The cost of a guild trader is pretty much the only thing in game that consistently keeps inflation in check. That gold is removed from the game. Trading guilds don't pay for their spots from revenue created from sales alone. They have dues and guild events and auctions. Trade guilds in prime locations can list most items at a higher (not much higher) price just out of convenience of location. None I have been in have ever dictated prices. Members will often undercut their own guilds prices on items they want a quick sell on.
    And you don't need a top tier location to make a ton of gold. I'm in a social guild that gets a trader maybe once every two months. It is in a stand alone location not considered prime at all or we couldn't afford it. Last time that guild had a trader I made seven million gold that week at that trader. Three other players were ahead of me on sales.
    The system we have now provides a very stable and fluid economy. The prices change based on the ebb and flow of supply and demand. It is near impossible to manipulate or control the market for more than a few hours at best.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Ulvich
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    xFocused wrote: »
    It's so time consuming to have to run to each and every zone checking every trader for a specific piece of gear when we could have a auction house in a major zone where multiple guilds can list items. You could even make 3-5 Auction Houses spread across Tamriel to hold multiple guilds as to not bog down one single zone. Just something that would make shopping/selling a lot easier in my opinion

    We shouldn't have to depend on a third-party apps to look up who is selling what and where. And some of these traders are way out in the middle of nowhere all by themselves. Just trying to find some of them can be time consuming. Each city or each zone (either one) should have one AH. Guild traders are pointless when an AH would be more functional. Not to mention the amount of gold that could be saved in bidding on a trader.
    Hit Hard. Hit Fast. Hit Often - BETA Group: 85 b 9
  • Jusey1
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    Lumsdenml wrote: »

    I'm still not sure how a centralized location makes it harder for one person to gain a monopoly on an item. It is harder for a few guilds and specific groups to control something than a single person.

    Splitting everyone up makes it harder to control, because everyone is split up. The fact that it is harder for people to buy things, or to compare prices, is proof that it is a more resistant system to manipulation.

    And with everyone split up, it's easier to control the major market by buying smaller stuff up and reselling them in the most convenient trader guilds... Like, it's not that hard to really see the problems. Then again I have different experiences with both systems, I use to play RuneScape myself back in my early years of life from like 2006 to 2012-ish then ESO from 2014 to today (took breaks mind you). I saw how the market changed for RuneScape with Grand Exchange being a central market location for everyone and in the end, prices for everything were either consistent and low or consistently going down (mostly due to new content or older content becoming easier to do)...

    ESO on the other hand in comparison... Following the market changes from 2014 to today. While a lot of materials and items have been made easier and easier to get, even to a point of making things less needed to buy (with thanks to the sticker book and curated drops systems), yet inflation in ESO has always been an all time high when in theory the prices should've stayed at least stabled or even go down for many things but it didn't. I maybe usually quite silent in-game but I do watch the zone chats and watch guild stuff overtime and the most consistent thing I have noticed is how people uses an universal system to check prices and an online store to look for items which ended up being exploited by people slightly raising prices overtime for everything (effectively adjusting the average and market price), selling stuff for more and more gold until we got the problems that we have today where prices are so strong that you must take part in a trader guild if you wish to buy anything from most guild traders.

    And I strongly think with everyone being forced to take part in guilds and everyone being separated as well on top of that... We created an economic system that is easily manipulated and abused by specific groups of people while also having a market competition which focuses on raising prices constantly, instead of lowering it or keeping it stable.

    Yes, I do believe that market manipulation can never truly be avoided no matter which system ZOS does but I do highly believe that it's a lot easier with the current guild system than auction houses or having a central exchange place because of forcibly splitting up everybody and forcing this competitive market of constant price increases, guild taxes, minimum money requirements, etc etc...
  • chessalavakia_ESO
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    Lumsdenml wrote: »
    Jusey1 wrote: »
    Lumsdenml wrote: »

    If I had a lot of gold sitting in my bank and I decided to go to the centralized trading house (or whatever) and I buy up all of Molten War Torte recipes at an average of 16mil a piece. I then proceed to put them all back up at 40mil each. How is the community going to manage that? Now, there is an element of time and effort to do that, because they physically have to find where they are all listed, go to each of the traders where they are listed and buy them. That is a deterrent to this sort of behavior. It won't be a deterrent to 100% of the people who want to do it, but there is a percentage of the people who wouldn't bother in the current system, but would do it if they only had one place to go and could guarantee they would have a 100% monopoly.

    Also, when I put things up to sell on the guild trader, I am not affected at all by how much my guild had to pay to get that trader.

    Obviously resellers are still going to attempt things like this but it won't be as effective when you have a more centralize location that anyone can easily access and use. The current system is much easier to controlled because mostly a few guilds and specific groups are controlling everything and steering the economy into whatever direction they wanted, and it's a lot easier to be a reseller in that system as well since you only have to worry about managing the major guild locations (like in Vivec, Mournhold, Wayrest, etc) rather than buying out EVERYONE. That's the big difference here. A central location allows everyone to take part and control while guild systems splits everyone up and even makes it impossible for a lot of the playerbase like newer players or people who just solos and do their own thing to be completely outside of it.

    I'm still not sure how a centralized location makes it harder for one person to gain a monopoly on an item. It is harder for a few guilds and specific groups to control something than a single person.

    Splitting everyone up makes it harder to control, because everyone is split up. The fact that it is harder for people to buy things, or to compare prices, is proof that it is a more resistant system to manipulation.

    Now, I'm not saying that manipulation doesn't happen... I assume it does. I'm saying the more centralized the system, the more easy it is to control and manipulate. This is exactly the reason the current system is in place.

    The current system puts a significant damper on supply and makes buying and selling a hassle which favors individuals that more actively play/manipulate the market.

    To control the market with a marketplace system, you'd need to buy up all of an item and then have higher buy orders than other people. I think with many items you'd find that it could be quite hard to afford and could be mitigated in many case by capping the amount that could be spent over a period of time (Obviously, some people would get around it by using multiple accounts but, you could likely add a line or two about doing it to the TOS and occasionally ban people for it in a public fashion to get most people to behave).

    Personally, I think a Central Auction House could work quite nicely along side the existing system. The Central Auction House would offer ease of use but, charge a larger premium for that ease and have a limitation on the total amount bought or sold in a month.

    If you wanted a good deal (some people like going from location to location and window shopping) or to buy and sell massive amounts of goods the traditional Guild Traders would frequently offer a better option but, if you just wanted to deal with the market in a simple fashion the Auction House would be superior.
  • kargen27
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    "And with everyone split up, it's easier to control the major market by buying smaller stuff up and reselling them in the most convenient trader guilds... Like, it's not that hard to really see the problems."

    Buying one type of item across 100 traders is not easier than buying that same item at only one location. There is little difference in buying at one location then listing at another location and buying at one location the reselling at that same location. The only difference is how much simpler it is to do at the one location. You don't have to worry about other players coming in behind you and listing items at locations you just visited. You could constantly monitor the one location with ease.

    With smaller stuff you can't bump the price up much at all or players sitting on stacks will come in and undercut you just a bit until eventually prices are right back where they were before. You get a very small window where others are paying your prices if they pay them at all. The crafting bag lets players sit on an unlimited supply of certain items they can dump if the price goes up. That is in part how a market should work.
    THe biggest argument against changing the system we have now is how healthy the economy is. Players can afford everything they need and most of what they want. As demand increases prices increase. This leads to players increasing supply bringing the prices back down. Very fluid and stable with little control or manipulation.
    Most manipulation isn't so much of the market but of players that need new items as soon as they drop. Prices on a new item first week are always (in my opinion) insanely high but fall fairly quick. The system is fine as is and any major overhaul would be devastating. Not that the other systems are bad if the game puts them in from the start. Just changing mid stream would be a disaster.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • Necrotech_Master
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    Jusey1 wrote: »
    Lumsdenml wrote: »

    I'm still not sure how a centralized location makes it harder for one person to gain a monopoly on an item. It is harder for a few guilds and specific groups to control something than a single person.

    Splitting everyone up makes it harder to control, because everyone is split up. The fact that it is harder for people to buy things, or to compare prices, is proof that it is a more resistant system to manipulation.

    And with everyone split up, it's easier to control the major market by buying smaller stuff up and reselling them in the most convenient trader guilds... Like, it's not that hard to really see the problems. Then again I have different experiences with both systems, I use to play RuneScape myself back in my early years of life from like 2006 to 2012-ish then ESO from 2014 to today (took breaks mind you). I saw how the market changed for RuneScape with Grand Exchange being a central market location for everyone and in the end, prices for everything were either consistent and low or consistently going down (mostly due to new content or older content becoming easier to do)...

    ESO on the other hand in comparison... Following the market changes from 2014 to today. While a lot of materials and items have been made easier and easier to get, even to a point of making things less needed to buy (with thanks to the sticker book and curated drops systems), yet inflation in ESO has always been an all time high when in theory the prices should've stayed at least stabled or even go down for many things but it didn't. I maybe usually quite silent in-game but I do watch the zone chats and watch guild stuff overtime and the most consistent thing I have noticed is how people uses an universal system to check prices and an online store to look for items which ended up being exploited by people slightly raising prices overtime for everything (effectively adjusting the average and market price), selling stuff for more and more gold until we got the problems that we have today where prices are so strong that you must take part in a trader guild if you wish to buy anything from most guild traders.

    And I strongly think with everyone being forced to take part in guilds and everyone being separated as well on top of that... We created an economic system that is easily manipulated and abused by specific groups of people while also having a market competition which focuses on raising prices constantly, instead of lowering it or keeping it stable.

    Yes, I do believe that market manipulation can never truly be avoided no matter which system ZOS does but I do highly believe that it's a lot easier with the current guild system than auction houses or having a central exchange place because of forcibly splitting up everybody and forcing this competitive market of constant price increases, guild taxes, minimum money requirements, etc etc...

    in your runescape example, prices of items from older content go down because it becomes obsolete and less need it

    stuff in elder scrolls usually doesnt become obsolete unless theres some nerf to a set (or it was never good to begin with)

    the prices of things go up because most of the stuff thats being traded are mats, which are in constant demand, especially when there are tons of people trying to keep up with whatever the current 3 month meta is in the game

    i do see prices of things going down, motif chapters being one, motif chapters on release could be hundreds of thousands or millions of gold per chapter and in general over time most of the motif chapters show a downward trend as fewer people need them
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
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