The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?
Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.
This thread is actually really interesting to read!
The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?
Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.
This thread is actually really interesting to read!
No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.
Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.
The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?
Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.
This thread is actually really interesting to read!
No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.
Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.
ZOS nerfed LA builds for a reason, which if I recall correctly was to combat power creep brought on by their habit of introducing new high-powered sets with new expansions and DLCs. It's far easier, and the end result is the same, to adjust HA builds downward. I know every competitive PvEer wants more, MORE, MORE! dps but ZOS has to balance it to keep those who like a challenge interested.
The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?
Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.
This thread is actually really interesting to read!
No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.
Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.
ZOS nerfed LA builds for a reason, which if I recall correctly was to combat power creep brought on by their habit of introducing new high-powered sets with new expansions and DLCs. It's far easier, and the end result is the same, to adjust HA builds downward. I know every competitive PvEer wants more, MORE, MORE! dps but ZOS has to balance it to keep those who like a challenge interested.
All this nerf is doing is creating a larger dps gap between high end and mid to low end players.
The whole idea of the light attack nerf was to “decrease the delta” between the high end player, and basically everyone else. This change widens that gap.
The upshot is there will be more complaints about “fake dps”, and longer dungeon queues due to lower participation.
And this comes in a chapter that shifts world events away from a community activity, to a high end exclusive one.
The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?
Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.
This thread is actually really interesting to read!
No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.
Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.
ZOS nerfed LA builds for a reason, which if I recall correctly was to combat power creep brought on by their habit of introducing new high-powered sets with new expansions and DLCs. It's far easier, and the end result is the same, to adjust HA builds downward. I know every competitive PvEer wants more, MORE, MORE! dps but ZOS has to balance it to keep those who like a challenge interested.
All this nerf is doing is creating a larger dps gap between high end and mid to low end players.
The whole idea of the light attack nerf was to “decrease the delta” between the high end player, and basically everyone else. This change widens that gap.
The upshot is there will be more complaints about “fake dps”, and longer dungeon queues due to lower participation.
And this comes in a chapter that shifts world events away from a community activity, to a high end exclusive one.
It looks to me that Oakensoul took a huge chunk out of the DPS gap between high and low end players, evidentally more than ZOS intended, hence the nerf to the ring. I personally have seen a big drop in players with very poor dps (there are no "fake DPS", just poor DPS) in RNDs since the ring became commonly used, and now fake tanks (actual fake tanks, with zero blocking ability and no taunts and no intention of tanking) are a bigger problem, but that's a conversation for another thread.
beer781993 wrote: »beer781993 wrote: »No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.
Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.
Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.
Wow that's awful. Yes we should definitely nerf HA builds to protect the integrity of this 6-year-old achievement. I'm sure power creep has nothing to do with how much easier it is now.
That was just an example. It's still a challenge with normal builds. Not as hard as years ago but effortless with ha builds.
Dawnbringer, TTT, Godslayer, Unchained, all dungeon titles are completely free and only tanks and maybe healers are sweating. DD barely need to think with a 1 bar build.
Plus why the hack is a ha build performing better than a 2 bar build on frequently moving targets? It's bis in some encounters which is ridiculous.....
The poll will be skewed as most that will look at this thread are ones who use HA builds. It may offer some entertainment value but not anything of value.
Hapexamendios wrote: »MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars
Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.
Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.
Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?
FrancisCrawford wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars
Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.
Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.
Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?
Why should I think about them more than I think about the people who put in time and effort to farm sets that were subsequently nerfed hard?
FrancisCrawford wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars
Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.
Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.
Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?
Why should I think about them more than I think about the people who put in time and effort to farm sets that were subsequently nerfed hard?
Everyone has farmed sets. Do you think 2 bar LA players get 130k naked? They had to farm more than anybody. Meta changes almost every patch. And most of their gear is from trials, arenas and dlc dungeons. But oaken HA players only needed Sergeant's and Storm master, which are both from easy base game dungeons that can be soloed. Now they slightly nerfed Storm master, big deal, welcome to the club. You can replace that with another base game set like noble duelist. Everyone who has been playing for awhile most likely already had all these sets in sticker book before oaken arrived. What effort you're talking about.
I use the Oakensoul HA build everywhere, including in vet dlc trials, even in some HMs. Why? because its just so OP. I've been using it only for few months but I've gotten more achievements with it than in 5+ years of playing. I can solo vCR portals and vDSR reefs with it and have ez mode in vSS hm portals. I can parse 110k with 2 bar builds but survivability can be an issue. With oaken I can do personal no death runs in any trial all day long. Sustain is no issue, no need to use expensive pots, great cleave and I out dps even people who parse 120-130k in some fights. I want it nerfed so i can go back to regular builds but currently its just too good to pass.
About the question n.4 of the poll (What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete?), I think we may get lost in this one - Why?
Do we agree that top 1% players should achieve trifectas with a HA setup? Likely yes.
Do we agree that bottom 1% players should not achieve trifectas with a HA setup? Likely yes.
The question per sé isn't much helpful because we don't know who we are talking about. Since we just talk for ourselves we can't help much the devs, because they probably better not listen to a bottom 1% player demanding easy trifectas.
Only the devs have real numbers in their hands, so balancing is something they should be able to do better than any of us.
With that said - excluding all players from trifectas using a particular play style sounds silly and nonsensical to me, and I think devs would agree.
Balancing is a fine work... Kudos to them because at this time they are doing a good job in my opinion. I'm ok with recent nerfs, I just hope they don't apply further nerfs at this; a bit anxious looking for next week PTS balance changes.
WinterHeart626 wrote: »Everyone should have equal opportunity to achieve trifectas. The elite players have been doing trifectas on standard 2 bar set ups since launch and need no assistance from anyone, except for their addons which tell them what buttons to press, what attacks to dodge, when the next mechanic is coming etc etc. That’s why they are elite players because they excel at utilising addons to get them through content. (Unless you’re on console, then you’ve done the hard yards).Let them have some fun.
Fixed it for you Chase0531.
WinterHeart626 wrote: »Braffin, I can’t argue with that point. It does take a fair bit of time and effort to make those.
Just making the point that console doesn’t have those assists.
I’ve seen more people get involved with veteran content since HA became viable, more runs available.
If you ha users enjoy using heavy attacks so much then why does everyone only use lightning staff? Where’s the ha build diversity at? It’s like they’re all lightning staff ha bots that use their pets as crutches to get by with zero effort.. It’s because all of you understand and know that it is broken right now. When the aoe staff out parses the single target staff… on a single target… the system is busted and all of you are taking advantage of the current system in a negative manor to use towards your own advantage.
Seriously, any meta ha builds rocking flame staff or ice? Nope, because players can dodge roll that trash. Not the lightning staff though, amiright? Every ha exploiter knows they can just hold down the right rock n roll and their dps will land no matter what. HA builds are trash and require zero skill to function, which ties into the whole “accessibility “ argument you ha users keep regurgitating one after the other. But then you try to flip flop your argument by saying that oakensorc one bar ha builds require skill to pull off successfully. So now I’m confused… which is it? Are ha builds easy and accessible or sweaty and challenging?
The reason for using a lightning staff on the HA build is not because it is "unavoidable", it's not even because of the AOE effect. IT is because of the channel effect and how it interacts with the HA sets, specifically Seargent's Mail, being utilized on every tick of damage rather than just the final. I've tested an ice staff HA build using the same setup on a Warden, and I got 30k dps LESS, than with a lightning staff, You can get better damage with a Resto staff than an Ice staff! This is a flaw in the way that lightning staves, as well as Restoration staves, work in the game in regards to HA.