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HA Nerfs: The Poll

  • SkaiFaith
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    LunaFlora wrote: »
    sPark101 wrote: »
    Might want to explain what "HA" is/means,
    No Opinion.

    HA is short for Heavy Attack

    This could not be the last comment to this thread, too hilarious XD (I'm not trolling, it was really funny to read it at last!)

    About the question n.4 of the poll (What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete?), I think we may get lost in this one - Why?
    Do we agree that top 1% players should achieve trifectas with a HA setup? Likely yes.
    Do we agree that bottom 1% players should not achieve trifectas with a HA setup? Likely yes.

    The question per sé isn't much helpful because we don't know who we are talking about. Since we just talk for ourselves we can't help much the devs, because they probably better not listen to a bottom 1% player demanding easy trifectas.
    Only the devs have real numbers in their hands, so balancing is something they should be able to do better than any of us.

    With that said - excluding all players from trifectas using a particular play style sounds silly and nonsensical to me, and I think devs would agree.
    Balancing is a fine work... Kudos to them because at this time they are doing a good job in my opinion. I'm ok with recent nerfs, I just hope they don't apply further nerfs at this; a bit anxious looking for next week PTS balance changes.
    Edited by SkaiFaith on May 2, 2023 6:18PM
    A: "We, as humans, should respect and take care of each other like in a Co-op, not a PvP 🌸"
    B: "Too many words. Words bad. Won't read. ⚔️"
  • ACamaroGuy
    ACamaroGuy
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    When U35 killed off my MagPlar, I then went to the HA one bar Oakensoul MagSorc. I simply love the ease of it...no sweaty play style for me. I just discovered the HA one bar Oakensoul MagCro. Great game play and fun to use. Stop decreasing the damage output of the game. For those that want to play sweaty with two bars, up their damage as a reward. The one bar play style should not be kept out of end game content.
    Edited by ACamaroGuy on May 2, 2023 2:35PM
    For the Empire
  • Kusto
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    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?

    Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.

    This thread is actually really interesting to read!

    No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.

    Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.
  • Marcus684
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    Kusto wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?

    Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.

    This thread is actually really interesting to read!

    No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.

    Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.

    ZOS nerfed LA builds for a reason, which if I recall correctly was to combat power creep brought on by their habit of introducing new high-powered sets with new expansions and DLCs. It's far easier, and the end result is the same, to adjust HA builds downward. I know every competitive PvEer wants more, MORE, MORE! dps but ZOS has to balance it to keep those who like a challenge interested.
  • BlueRaven
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    Marcus684 wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?

    Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.

    This thread is actually really interesting to read!

    No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.

    Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.

    ZOS nerfed LA builds for a reason, which if I recall correctly was to combat power creep brought on by their habit of introducing new high-powered sets with new expansions and DLCs. It's far easier, and the end result is the same, to adjust HA builds downward. I know every competitive PvEer wants more, MORE, MORE! dps but ZOS has to balance it to keep those who like a challenge interested.

    All this nerf is doing is creating a larger dps gap between high end and mid to low end players.

    The whole idea of the light attack nerf was to “decrease the delta” between the high end player, and basically everyone else. This change widens that gap.

    The upshot is there will be more complaints about “fake dps”, and longer dungeon queues due to lower participation.

    And this comes in a chapter that shifts world events away from a community activity, to a high end exclusive one.
  • Marcus684
    Marcus684
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Marcus684 wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?

    Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.

    This thread is actually really interesting to read!

    No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.

    Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.

    ZOS nerfed LA builds for a reason, which if I recall correctly was to combat power creep brought on by their habit of introducing new high-powered sets with new expansions and DLCs. It's far easier, and the end result is the same, to adjust HA builds downward. I know every competitive PvEer wants more, MORE, MORE! dps but ZOS has to balance it to keep those who like a challenge interested.

    All this nerf is doing is creating a larger dps gap between high end and mid to low end players.

    The whole idea of the light attack nerf was to “decrease the delta” between the high end player, and basically everyone else. This change widens that gap.

    The upshot is there will be more complaints about “fake dps”, and longer dungeon queues due to lower participation.

    And this comes in a chapter that shifts world events away from a community activity, to a high end exclusive one.

    It looks to me that Oakensoul took a huge chunk out of the DPS gap between high and low end players, evidentally more than ZOS intended, hence the nerf to the ring. I personally have seen a big drop in players with very poor dps (there are no "fake DPS", just poor DPS) in RNDs since the ring became commonly used, and now fake tanks (actual fake tanks, with zero blocking ability and no taunts and no intention of tanking) are a bigger problem, but that's a conversation for another thread.
  • BlueRaven
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    Marcus684 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Marcus684 wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?

    Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.

    This thread is actually really interesting to read!

    No, 2 bar builds shouldn't be the only viable option for endgame trials but 1 bar oaken shouldn't be the preferred option for ez clears either. And that's how it currently is. Everyone parsing less than 130k are better off with oaken HA.

    Maybe instead of nerfing HA builds, they should buff the LA back to where they used to be (about 25% of parse). They started nerfing LA several patches ago and the main reason was to close the gap between the floor and ceiling. But now that the floor is all using HA it's fine to put it back. This way everyone wins. HA players can keep doing endgame content and people who currently parse less than 130k dont necessarily have to use oaken to be competitive. Then some ofcourse would parse 150k but who cares what the 0.00001% players can do.

    ZOS nerfed LA builds for a reason, which if I recall correctly was to combat power creep brought on by their habit of introducing new high-powered sets with new expansions and DLCs. It's far easier, and the end result is the same, to adjust HA builds downward. I know every competitive PvEer wants more, MORE, MORE! dps but ZOS has to balance it to keep those who like a challenge interested.

    All this nerf is doing is creating a larger dps gap between high end and mid to low end players.

    The whole idea of the light attack nerf was to “decrease the delta” between the high end player, and basically everyone else. This change widens that gap.

    The upshot is there will be more complaints about “fake dps”, and longer dungeon queues due to lower participation.

    And this comes in a chapter that shifts world events away from a community activity, to a high end exclusive one.

    It looks to me that Oakensoul took a huge chunk out of the DPS gap between high and low end players, evidentally more than ZOS intended, hence the nerf to the ring. I personally have seen a big drop in players with very poor dps (there are no "fake DPS", just poor DPS) in RNDs since the ring became commonly used, and now fake tanks (actual fake tanks, with zero blocking ability and no taunts and no intention of tanking) are a bigger problem, but that's a conversation for another thread.

    I agree about the whole fake tank thing, I put the “fake dps” thing in quotes because I hate the term as well.

    I really don’t understand zos’s combat vision tbh. There seems to be no clear direction or design philosophy. It’s like there are several teams that don’t talk to each other taking turns balancing combat.

    And when they do balance things it feels like it took them by surprise. Like someone sprung the issue on them that day and the needed a quick correction.

    I mean, is the dps delta too high? If so, why widen it? It makes no sense.
  • MudcrabAttack
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    beer781993 wrote: »
    Marcus684 wrote: »
    beer781993 wrote: »
    No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

    Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
    Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

    Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

    Wow that's awful. Yes we should definitely nerf HA builds to protect the integrity of this 6-year-old achievement. I'm sure power creep has nothing to do with how much easier it is now.

    That was just an example. It's still a challenge with normal builds. Not as hard as years ago but effortless with ha builds.

    Dawnbringer, TTT, Godslayer, Unchained, all dungeon titles are completely free and only tanks and maybe healers are sweating. DD barely need to think with a 1 bar build.

    Plus why the hack is a ha build performing better than a 2 bar build on frequently moving targets? It's bis in some encounters which is ridiculous.....

    That’s just the case for ranged builds in general when a target is moving around, or the group switches targets frequently. My 2 bar bow build is usually out-dpsing my 1 bar build.

    The exception is when there are a few things standing in close proximity together for a long enough time that need to die in AOE, like stacking vHOF triplets. Acid spray spam doesn’t compete at all against the left mouse button when you run out of stamina. Heavy attack weaving with a bow in that scenario is plain awful
  • Amottica
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    The poll will be skewed as most that will look at this thread are ones who use HA builds. It may offer some entertainment value but not anything of value.
  • Soarora
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    Amottica wrote: »
    The poll will be skewed as most that will look at this thread are ones who use HA builds. It may offer some entertainment value but not anything of value.

    I agree, the purpose of this poll is not to be used to interpret how the broader playerbase feels. I'm very aware of sampling error that comes with polls as only those with a passion for the subject will click. However, that does mean that I would think it would be accurate enough to see who has passion on the forums about the subject. Anyways, the survey results are of the most value to me but I wanted a way to get people engaged outside of a survey, and a way to make this stand out as an information collection place rather than yet another discussion thread.
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
    • CP 2000+
    • Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
    • Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
    • Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
    • All Veterans completed!

      View my builds!
  • AScarlato
    AScarlato
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    Amottica wrote: »
    The poll will be skewed as most that will look at this thread are ones who use HA builds. It may offer some entertainment value but not anything of value.

    And those who actively want it nerfed....which fortunately seems to be more a vocal minority.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Kusto wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

    Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

    Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.

    Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
    The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?

    Why should I think about them more than I think about the people who put in time and effort to farm sets that were subsequently nerfed hard?
  • bmnoble
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    I don't build around heavy attacks, I just use them when my potions on cooldown and I need resources.
  • Kusto
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    Kusto wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

    Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

    Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.

    Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
    The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?

    Why should I think about them more than I think about the people who put in time and effort to farm sets that were subsequently nerfed hard?

    Everyone has farmed sets. Do you think 2 bar LA players get 130k naked? They had to farm more than anybody. Meta changes almost every patch. And most of their gear is from trials, arenas and dlc dungeons. But oaken HA players only needed Sergeant's and Storm master, which are both from easy base game dungeons that can be soloed. Now they slightly nerfed Storm master, big deal, welcome to the club. You can replace that with another base game set like noble duelist. Everyone who has been playing for awhile most likely already had all these sets in sticker book before oaken arrived. What effort you're talking about.
  • Ishtarknows
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    Kusto wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    Kusto wrote: »
    HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

    Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

    Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.

    Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
    The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?

    Why should I think about them more than I think about the people who put in time and effort to farm sets that were subsequently nerfed hard?

    Everyone has farmed sets. Do you think 2 bar LA players get 130k naked? They had to farm more than anybody. Meta changes almost every patch. And most of their gear is from trials, arenas and dlc dungeons. But oaken HA players only needed Sergeant's and Storm master, which are both from easy base game dungeons that can be soloed. Now they slightly nerfed Storm master, big deal, welcome to the club. You can replace that with another base game set like noble duelist. Everyone who has been playing for awhile most likely already had all these sets in sticker book before oaken arrived. What effort you're talking about.


    I think this nerf to the META set Storm Master (yes it's the META for HA builds and is most probably overperforming) is a shock to the system for many players who, before Oakensoul didn't care about META or farming sets and would probably still consider themselves to not care about the META.
    Well, welcome to the endgame. Every year several widely used sets get a nerf and this time it's one of your favourites. Get used to it. At least it wasn't Sergeant's Mail so you can still wear your heavy chest piece for all those nice resistances. There are alternatives, Noble Dualist for example. You've got plenty time to farm before the nerf hits live.
  • Brrrofski
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    I couldn't care less.

    As long as they never allow some broken heavy attack mechanic in PvP again, I don't care what other people are doing in PvE.

    It wouldn't make sense if it was the best way to do PvE content though. But I still wouldn't really care.
  • Chase0351
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    Kusto wrote: »
    I use the Oakensoul HA build everywhere, including in vet dlc trials, even in some HMs. Why? because its just so OP. I've been using it only for few months but I've gotten more achievements with it than in 5+ years of playing. I can solo vCR portals and vDSR reefs with it and have ez mode in vSS hm portals. I can parse 110k with 2 bar builds but survivability can be an issue. With oaken I can do personal no death runs in any trial all day long. Sustain is no issue, no need to use expensive pots, great cleave and I out dps even people who parse 120-130k in some fights. I want it nerfed so i can go back to regular builds but currently its just too good to pass.

    This is exactly why HA builds need to be nerfed. The fact that players are openly bragging about how easy the game has become thanks to HA builds is pretty ridiculous. The devs used to expect some skill from the player base. They revamped the entire cp system in order to make the game more challenging and force us to be more selective with cp. What happened to that idea? What happened to the skill based gameplay in pve AND pvp? Where’s the skill in a one bar oakensorc ha build with 2-3pets? No risk should get no rewards… How many of us veteran players have beat vet solo arenas and worked hard to learn the game’s mechanics with 2 bar set ups, dealing damage and buffing OURSELVES throughout the entire rotation? It wasn’t easy but that is the whole point of playing more challenging content. The same goes for pvp. I’m a disabled combat veteran and I have no issues bar swapping and my hands are wrecked. My wife is super casual, has small female hands and is terrible at video games in general and she can bar swap np on her level 30 mag sorc, with no pets I might add. I have friends with missing limbs and they all can work an Xbox controller np. This entire argument about “accessibility “ is complete nonsense and is being used by the lazy players and the experienced exploiters who say they want it nerfed. They don’t.

    If you honestly enjoy the ha/one bar set up then that’s fine but you should expect to do half as much damage as everyone else since you are literally putting in half the work as everyone else. Frankly, the entire play style revolves around the right trigger being held down indefinitely while pets do additional dps and buff your stats. How much help does one really need to simply complete content? Not vet, not vhm.. Just normal content. Because that is where ha builds should start and end, easing new players into eso content like main quest, etc. HA builds should not be able to solo any vet content, even solo vet content. Again, low risk no reward.

    Let’s use nb as an example. The entire class is based around high risk high reward. Arguably the most single target burst damage in eso. Should we dumb down the class so it’s more accessible to the rest of the player base that aren’t good at the class and are unable to properly get the combo off? No. Go practice or find the class that best suits your abilities. Get in where you fit in in life. If you can’t beat content find friends to help you. If it’s solo content then pay your dues and learn the mechanics like those that came before you did. Or don’t and never beat it and such is life, right? Isn’t that the whole point of an mmo anyways? Individuals should not be able to solo group content. Again, what was the point of changing the cp system?

    Lastly, all heavy attacks from any weapon should be able to be dodge rolled, at the very least. Dodge rolling costs resources so why should lightning ha be unavoidable if the opposing player is literally using manual skill to avoid the damage while the ha build player is only squeezing right trigger while their pets do most of the work? It makes no sense. Right now in eso lighting ha out dps’s a flame staff… The aoe weapon out dps’s the single target weapon on a single target. Why?
  • Braffin
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    I voted for an nerf, but want to clarify a little bit:

    I don't think it is necessary to nerf all HA builds and I'm also not convinced that nerfing dps is the right way to do it. It seems, that specifically Oakensoul HA builds have a little bit too much survivability given that HA-builds already don't have to think about sustain.

    So I would vote for removing minor aegis and minor mending for the ring. This buffs weren't not meant for damage dealers using them in the first place and only encourage people to ignore mechanics.

    Otherwise I'm fine with HA builds in every content around, although they are not for me, as I had to play them for quite a time around update 16 (I'm not exactly sure about the exact patch, but it was definitely somewhere between the launch of vvardenfell chapter or clockwork expansion) as other builds weren't almost sustainable anymore for a few weeks (will never forget our healers ranting about having to heavy attack now too)
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • Castagere
    Castagere
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    LOL never use either of them Just don't have a need and it's to me just another dumb thing the game tries to force you to do like bar switching because of the game's lousy combat system.
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
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    SkaiFaith wrote: »

    About the question n.4 of the poll (What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete?), I think we may get lost in this one - Why?
    Do we agree that top 1% players should achieve trifectas with a HA setup? Likely yes.
    Do we agree that bottom 1% players should not achieve trifectas with a HA setup? Likely yes.

    The question per sé isn't much helpful because we don't know who we are talking about. Since we just talk for ourselves we can't help much the devs, because they probably better not listen to a bottom 1% player demanding easy trifectas.
    Only the devs have real numbers in their hands, so balancing is something they should be able to do better than any of us.

    With that said - excluding all players from trifectas using a particular play style sounds silly and nonsensical to me, and I think devs would agree.
    Balancing is a fine work... Kudos to them because at this time they are doing a good job in my opinion. I'm ok with recent nerfs, I just hope they don't apply further nerfs at this; a bit anxious looking for next week PTS balance changes.

    No. No one using a ha build should be completing any vet content let alone trifectas. The elite players have been doing trifectas on standard 2 bar set ups since launch and need no assistance from anyone. That’s why they are elite players because they excel at problem solving. Let them earn their stripes.

    HA builds should be for brand new players and the potential for dps should cap out very early, sub level 50. You’re not supposed to leave the training wheels on indefinitely. There should be no place for cheese builds where there are leaderboards and competition. That means arenas, any sort of pvp, etc. Baeically, ha builds should have no place outside of open world questing, delves and maybe public dungeons at the very most. That’s plenty of “accessible “ content to introduce new players to eso. After that it’s time to graduate and evolve.

    The whole “accessibility “ argument is nonsense. We only have 5 skills to activate then you press a shift button (bar swap) and hit those same 5 buttons again but with different functions. Crazy concept, I know. Seriously though.. If you want a trifecta then earn it by getting sweaty and grinding it out until it’s done. Most of us are not going to nor will we ever complete a solo trifecta run. Everything will be fine though. I’ve never earned a trifecta outside of group content with an organized group. Who cares if you don’t get handed a trifecta run for vVH or vMA? Get over it and play something else or stick it out until you persevere but there should be no handouts for the ocd completion obsessed player base. You want a skin, achievement, etc? Earn it.


    Side note:

    If you ha users enjoy using heavy attacks so much then why does everyone only use lightning staff? Where’s the ha build diversity at? It’s like they’re all lightning staff ha bots that use their pets as crutches to get by with zero effort.. It’s because all of you understand and know that it is broken right now. When the aoe staff out parses the single target staff… on a single target… the system is busted and all of you are taking advantage of the current system in a negative manor to use towards your own advantage.

    Seriously, any meta ha builds rocking flame staff or ice? Nope, because players can dodge roll that trash. Not the lightning staff though, amiright? Every ha exploiter knows they can just hold down the right rock n roll and their dps will land no matter what. HA builds are trash and require zero skill to function, which ties into the whole “accessibility “ argument you ha users keep regurgitating one after the other. But then you try to flip flop your argument by saying that oakensorc one bar ha builds require skill to pull off successfully. So now I’m confused… which is it? Are ha builds easy and accessible or sweaty and challenging?
  • Chase0351
    Chase0351
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    Duplicate deleted
    Edited by Chase0351 on May 21, 2023 8:12PM
  • jtm1018
    jtm1018
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    Well, with ha I murder those dirty mudcrabs with ease and joy.
    So, no nerf pls.
    Those mudcrabs will be destroyed, for what they did to me when I was level5 back in 2018, I will never forget the humilation.
  • RevJJ
    RevJJ
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    I just did eight runs of normal Scrivener’s Hall on a tank. In four of those runs the group could not get past the first boss because even when there was a fake healer, the total group DPS was less than 20k and players kept dying because the fight went on so long (edit: this included groups with players with 2000+ CP). I know it’s a small sample size but in that small sample size 50% of pug groups can’t even make it past the first boss on normal difficulty.

    Please keep HA viable so that more people have a chance to do more damage. When I go into a dungeon to tank or heal and I see an Oakensorc I’m happy because I know that most likely group damage and survivability will be ok.
    Edited by RevJJ on May 22, 2023 7:56AM
  • Liguar
    Liguar
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    jtm1018 wrote: »
    Those mudcrabs will be destroyed, for what they did to me when I was level5 back in 2018, I will never forget the humilation.

    I feel you. I am holding my mudcrab grudge since Oblivion.
  • Aelorin
    Aelorin
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    I use a HA build (No Oakensoul) on a hybrid DPS/Healer for RND. But for my best DPS and healer characters, I don't use an HA build.

    I tried Oakensoul but the one bar build is a bit too boring for me.

    I think it's a good thing that more playstyles are available for players, I don't want any nerfs for it.
    And so the Elder Scrolls foretold.You will be shy, and I will be bold.
  • WinterHeart626
    WinterHeart626
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    Everyone should have equal opportunity to achieve trifectas. The elite players have been doing trifectas on standard 2 bar set ups since launch and need no assistance from anyone, except for their addons which tell them what buttons to press, what attacks to dodge, when the next mechanic is coming etc etc. That’s why they are elite players because they excel at utilising addons to get them through content. (Unless you’re on console, then you’ve done the hard yards).Let them have some fun.


    Fixed it for you Chase0531.
    Edited by WinterHeart626 on May 22, 2023 1:38PM
  • Braffin
    Braffin
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    Everyone should have equal opportunity to achieve trifectas. The elite players have been doing trifectas on standard 2 bar set ups since launch and need no assistance from anyone, except for their addons which tell them what buttons to press, what attacks to dodge, when the next mechanic is coming etc etc. That’s why they are elite players because they excel at utilising addons to get them through content. (Unless you’re on console, then you’ve done the hard yards).Let them have some fun.


    Fixed it for you Chase0531.

    Well, you aren't elite if you have to rely on addons, which have to be programmed too btw.

    Who do you think is doing this job for all the haters, which use this addons nonetheless?

    You have to know a mechanic to the bone, if you want to be able to write a program which help weaker players progressing through content :wink:
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • WinterHeart626
    WinterHeart626
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    Braffin, I can’t argue with that point. It does take a fair bit of time and effort to make those.
    Just making the point that console doesn’t have those assists.
    I’ve seen more people get involved with veteran content since HA became viable, more runs available.
  • Braffin
    Braffin
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    Braffin, I can’t argue with that point. It does take a fair bit of time and effort to make those.
    Just making the point that console doesn’t have those assists.
    I’ve seen more people get involved with veteran content since HA became viable, more runs available.

    Sure, I think I get your point. I just wanted to remind you, that the players which are really "on the top" don't rely on addons too, they develop them.

    Being guided through a trial by raidnotifier without knowing the mechanics show by the game itself is not "elite" but rather harmful to one's own playstyle and definitely nothing anyone should be proud of.
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • SoraJP
    SoraJP
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    Chase0351 wrote: »
    SkaiFaith wrote: »

    If you ha users enjoy using heavy attacks so much then why does everyone only use lightning staff? Where’s the ha build diversity at? It’s like they’re all lightning staff ha bots that use their pets as crutches to get by with zero effort.. It’s because all of you understand and know that it is broken right now. When the aoe staff out parses the single target staff… on a single target… the system is busted and all of you are taking advantage of the current system in a negative manor to use towards your own advantage.

    Seriously, any meta ha builds rocking flame staff or ice? Nope, because players can dodge roll that trash. Not the lightning staff though, amiright? Every ha exploiter knows they can just hold down the right rock n roll and their dps will land no matter what. HA builds are trash and require zero skill to function, which ties into the whole “accessibility “ argument you ha users keep regurgitating one after the other. But then you try to flip flop your argument by saying that oakensorc one bar ha builds require skill to pull off successfully. So now I’m confused… which is it? Are ha builds easy and accessible or sweaty and challenging?

    The reason for using a lightning staff on the HA build is not because it is "unavoidable", it's not even because of the AOE effect. IT is because of the channel effect and how it interacts with the HA sets, specifically Seargent's Mail, being utilized on every tick of damage rather than just the final. I've tested an ice staff HA build using the same setup on a Warden, and I got 30k dps LESS, than with a lightning staff, You can get better damage with a Resto staff than an Ice staff! This is a flaw in the way that lightning staves, as well as Restoration staves, work in the game in regards to HA.
    PC/NA Khajiit Warden Main
This discussion has been closed.