HA Nerfs: The Poll

Artim_X

1) What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?)

Two bar heavy attack sorcerer that utilizes every storm calling skill, all the pure lightning destruction staff skills, and a twilight pet on both bars.

Oakensoul templar that only uses aedric spear skills.

On PTS an Oakensoul Arcanist that only uses Herald of the Tome skills with exception of one class heal replacing a damage skill when doing group content.

2) Why do you use this build and what do you use it for? (Ease of use, casual, have a disability, etc. / Overland, normal dungeons, veteran trials, etc.)

I use a controller for the ergonomics. Rotations are easier compared to incorporating light attacks, which imo don't feel natural. I play all content in the game. Been playing my sorc the same way ever since One Tamriel dropped. Oakensoul makes roleplay builds functional (aedric spear templar, herald of the rune arcanist, etc.). My sorc satisfies tge roleplay aspect of being master of lighting and a heavy attack rotation with a lighting staff plays into that significantly.

3) If you are in support of nerfs, what nerfs would you like and what DPS range should the build have?

ZOS nerfed empower a bit, but that was fine. No further nerfs are need. All builds and playstyles got their damage gutted in Update 35. I needed to incorporate the new version of just to get back my lost damage on my Sorc. I essentially replaced Kinras's with Rage of the Ursauk's so I can consistently have empower up on my two bar sorc without changing my playstyle by replacing a preferred skill with one that grants empower. Overall, the adjustment resulted in equivalent damage between update 34 and update 35.

Realistically if someone is utilizing skills and heavy attacking without stopping the rotation with maxed out and fully upgraded gear, then they should be able to clear the toughest content in the game. However, it doesn't mean they will clear it with ease in comparison to someone doing even more damage with a min/max build utilizing light attacks.

4) What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete? (Veteran dungeon, veteran trial, trial HM, trial trifecta, etc.)

Everything in relation to other factors like CP allocation, gear fully upgraded, knowledge of mechanics, other peeps in the group, etc. Heavy attacking as a playstyle has been in the game, since the beginning. Oakensoul just opened up more possibilities that are more simplified. However a nerf to the playstyle would also affect those who have a two bar build that manually buffs up and has more skills to juggle.

Kusto

I use the Oakensoul HA build everywhere, including in vet dlc trials, even in some HMs. Why? because its just so OP. I've been using it only for few months but I've gotten more achievements with it than in 5+ years of playing. I can solo vCR portals and vDSR reefs with it and have ez mode in vSS hm portals. I can parse 110k with 2 bar builds but survivability can be an issue. With oaken I can do personal no death runs in any trial all day long. Sustain is no issue, no need to use expensive pots, great cleave and I out dps even people who parse 120-130k in some fights. I want it nerfed so i can go back to regular builds but currently its just too good to pass.

Jusey1

I'll be honest, I use Oakensoul but I never built a HA build. I just like using the ring for many other reasons.

FrancisCrawford

@DarcyMardin and I are working our way through the DLC dungeons for the first time ever -- we've played since beta -- and also are a lot more able to duo base-game dungeons in vet mode.

Oakensoul HA builds have a lot to do with that, although I'm more of an HA purist than she is. (Perhaps not coincidentally, I'm more likely than she is to get splatted in boss fights.)

I'm playing HA builds on 4 different classes. (5, technically, but each time I try necro I discover I don't like it and then shelve it for a long while again.)

Typical loadout for me is:

5x Sergeant's Mail
5x a light armor stat set
1x Oakensoul
1x Slimecraw

Dabbling in Undaunted Infiltrator hasn't seemed worth the trouble -- especially since it works most smoothly for the necro class I otherwise dislike.

BardokRedSnow

I use it in pvp Greyhost which is endgame, and it’s a part of my burst, but not the entire focus of the build. Maarselok and Perfected Vateshrans two hander. Both proc off heavy attacks. Used on my DK main.

In its current state, it’s not nearly strong enough to warrant a nerf. There’s no one hit build out with it, so I voted no nerf needed.

MikeSkyrim333

HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

ellmarie

I just created a HA toon. Mag Sorc Sarg/Stormasters. So I'm behind the times. I just wanted a toon that can melt down enemies for quick daily dungeons, sometimes trials. I mostly play PvE.

Kusto

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

Hapexamendios

Kusto wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.

auz

I don't use HA builds. I have no issue with people using HA builds in PVE and if it helps people get into content they otherwise couldn't, great. I don't see the harm in it. But something should be done about HA builds in PVP. The splash damage coming from mobs is ridiculous. If zos want to keep HA builds with the same strength in pvp, make lightning HAs dodgeable.

spartaxoxo

Kusto wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

In order for this to be true, the mechanics in those trials must not require any real skill. If the mechanics of the trials themselves are so trivial and easy that the only thing that matters is DPS parsing, then really only the DPS matters. The tanks and healers would not have earned their HMs because they don't have to parse. And the only skill that mattered would be your target dummy numbers.

Since that is self-evidently not the case, then HM are not easy. As the mechanics of the trials themselves ARE difficult, all participants including ones that don't have to parse DID earn their place by beating extremely difficult mechanics, and DLC trials ARE harder than dungeons. And the Oakensoul users conquered those mechanics, which is a feat of skill in and of itself that not everyone can do.

HM remains a RARE feat that FEW can do. Every single Oakensoul user that actually participated and earned a HM trophy did so by knowing the mechanics of those trials very well.

Parsing is NOT the only skill required of HM. Easy HM does not exist.

Kusto

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.

Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?

DreamyLu

I don't use HA builds, so don't care about nerf/no nerf.

Sarannah

Soarora wrote: »

What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?)

None, but I do use oakensoul on some of my builds. Especially since I always play onebar anyways. Oakensoul does not make me stronger in any way, but it does help with some survivability and resource regens. (oakensoul should never have received any nerfs)

Soarora wrote: »

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for? (Ease of use, casual, have a disability, etc. / Overland, normal dungeons, veteran trials, etc.)

I use some onebar oakensoul builds as they are easy to use(like all my builds are), and complement my own builds in some way. I'm not one for following guides, I play in my own style. Only one of my tanks uses oakensoul. The highest content I run is overland, except on my tanks, they have done/can do veteran dungeons with ease. So for me the answer to your question is: Ease of use and casual.

Soarora wrote: »

If you are in support of nerfs, what nerfs would you like and what DPS range should the build have?

Not in favor of nerfs in any way, and I feel asking for nerfs on builds other players like using is in bad taste! If the top tier meta build DPS is doing 120k DPS, the lowest/worst DPS builds should be doing 70k minimum.

Soarora wrote: »

What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete? (Veteran dungeon, veteran trial, trial HM, trial trifecta, etc.)

All builds/playstyles should be viable in all content. With how the devs keep talking about "Play the way you want", I find it strange how the nerfs/buffs never truly reflect "play the way you want".

Soarora wrote: »

Optionally, why should/n’t the build be nerfed?

Nerfs should never happen. In my opinion any DPS build/playstyle should be doing DPS close to the top tier DPS. So instead of builds getting nerfed into nothingness, in my opinion all builds/playstyles should be brought up to near the top tier meta build performances. If the top tier meta build DPS is 120k, the lowest/worst DPS builds should be doing 70k minimum. Close the DPS gap for once and for all!

PS: With OneTamriel the overland part of the game was made more accessible, and this resulted in more players playing ESO. The entire game should receive the same "more accessible" treatment, to result in even more players in all other parts of the game.
PPS: All playstyles, even not yet released ones, should be viable in all content. Let players play the way they want.

Caligamy_ESO

I've been using a HA build since Murkmire? Maybe..? Possibly Vvardenfell.. for literally everything and have readjusted it countless times throughout the years, as nerfs comes and go and really don't care all that much about it. I've played with it on PTS and didn't seem to be really all that terrible, but my playstyle is a mix of weaving la/skills with a ha in the rotation for resource restoration and aoe.

*shrugs* I'm not for or against the nerf I guess, its always gonna come and hit someone on something they're playing, thats how Zenimax keeps us busy on ye olde gear treadmill. (Otherwise we wouldn't have anything to do but repeat dailies all day every day)

Sarannah

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

thats how Zenimax keeps us busy on ye olde gear treadmill. (Otherwise we wouldn't have anything to do but repeat dailies all day every day)

Having hundreds of different viable FUN builds/playstyles would have the same result, without the need for buffing/nerfing. As with hundreds of builds/playstyles there will alway be something new to try, patches could include even more new playstyles. Oakensoul for example opened up the game in ways we ourselves could never imagine, it is a shame it was nerfed.

But besides oakensoul, there are plenty of other playstyle defining mythics they could come up with:
Mythic 1: Gear has no effect, cannot use skills, fist attacks deal 25k base damage. (unarmed)
Mythic 2: Cannot use skills, light attacks deal 15k base damage per hit.
Mythic 3: When wearing a helmet your attacks have 50% chance to blind you, causing you to miss your target, attacks deal 120% more damage.
Mythic 4: Your shield counts as a second weapon but without damage, and can be used to dual wield. Attacks involving your shield deal 40% increased damage.
Mythic 5: Without any CP's allocated, gain 15% increased resistances, defenses, and damage.

Etc, etc, so many new builds/playstyles could be unlocked this way.

Amphithoe

I use Oakensoul HA builds both for magicka and stamina.
Been a real game-changer since I have nerve damage in both my hands and fingers.

AScarlato

I just recently got Oakensoul and I am enjoying that character and don’t play my others anymore.

It’s a MagBlade with Sargeants and Storm Master. News of this nerf meant I did not pre-order Necrom and I returned my playtime to FFXIV. I log in or daily rewards and log out. Normally I do casual content and battlegrounds where my set is being turned off entirely.

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[Edited for Discussing Moderator Actions]

Ishtarknows

I was late to the HA Oakensoul game, but after seeing Nefas's IR with oaken Sorcs my friends and I decided to give it a go.

It's ridiculous how easy it is to get dungeon trifectas and vet trial Hard Modes when you have nearly 30k health, loads of resistances and a 3 button rotation. We 2 manned mountain God (Scalecaller peak trifecta) in our first try with the build after failing so often on 2 bar builds and will soon have all except the most recent dungeon achievements. Going for Unchained next week.

The fact that one gear/skill combo makes the hardest content trivial means it's way overpowered and absolutely needs a nerf. It feels like you're cheating.


Edited since I didn't answer the question. The damage is fine, but you shouldn't have everything in a build. Either tone down damage and keep resistance/health or reduce damage and keep the health bonuses.
All other builds have to choose between being a glass cannon or lowering DPS to increase survivability.

AcadianPaladin

After Update 35 trashed all my builds, they all went to Oakensoul (though only one is a HA build). Oakensoul restored their damage ability back to where it was before U35 and I attribute it with keeping me from rage quitting after U35. I did buy a replacement game for ESO just in case Oakensoul didn't work out. . . but Oakensoul successfully restored my love for ESO. More than empower, what I love is not micromanaging a whole back bar full of buffs so I can focus more on, you know, playing and fighting.

Oakensoul is a fabulous success at raising the floor without raising the ceiling.

Liguar

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I was late to the HA Oakensoul game, but after seeing Nefas's IR with oaken Sorcs my friends and I decided to give it a go.

It's ridiculous how easy it is to get dungeon trifectas and vet trial Hard Modes when you have nearly 30k health, loads of resistances and a 3 button rotation. We 2 manned mountain God (Scalecaller peak trifecta) in our first try with the build after failing so often on 2 bar builds and will soon have all except the most recent dungeon achievements. Going for Unchained next week.

The fact that one gear/skill combo makes the hardest content trivial means it's way overpowered and absolutely needs a nerf. It feels like you're cheating.


Edited since I didn't answer the question. The damage is fine, but you shouldn't have everything in a build. Either tone down damage and keep resistance/health or reduce damage and keep the health bonuses.
All other builds have to choose between being a glass cannon or lowering DPS to increase survivability.

This is the part I don't understand. You state that you have personally benefited from using it, and will continue to try to use it, but still want have it nerfed so that opportunity isn't there for others. That's just closing the door behind you, and not an argument for nerfing it.

Agenericname

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I was late to the HA Oakensoul game, but after seeing Nefas's IR with oaken Sorcs my friends and I decided to give it a go.

It's ridiculous how easy it is to get dungeon trifectas and vet trial Hard Modes when you have nearly 30k health, loads of resistances and a 3 button rotation. We 2 manned mountain God (Scalecaller peak trifecta) in our first try with the build after failing so often on 2 bar builds and will soon have all except the most recent dungeon achievements. Going for Unchained next week.

The fact that one gear/skill combo makes the hardest content trivial means it's way overpowered and absolutely needs a nerf. It feels like you're cheating.

Since the OP asked that the discussion not be a debate over the mythic, Ill abide, but also want to point out why this specific nerf is missing the mark.

Sorcs would already be getting Major Resolve from Hurricane. Most are already running it despite that buff being redundant. They would also already have 27k health because of the pets and running bistat (or tristat) foods. Thats the nature of those types of HA builds and has been that way as far back as I can remember, which is to say since the Necropotence/MS meta. Their tankiness is easily sourced without the ring. The nerf also doesnt address those.

As far as Mountain God, its an old trifecta. In fact, its the first of the trifectas along with Fang Lair. The fastest times that I have seen this patch, according to the public logs, in FL were sub 18 minutes and similar for SCP. Substantially lower IIRC. Our personal times are in the 18 minute range and theres little difference between 1 bar and 2 bar builds. (The bigger difference is between ranged and melee)That leaves a good bit of room for groups with lower DPS to complete. I cant see them nerfing any build, regardless of public perception, to the point where good players wont be able to complete that tri. Im not convinced that its reasonable to ask them to.

Our damage as whole has grown, sometimes significantly, since some of this content was released.
The first time we ran MHK for the tri we did at least partial mechs on the Archivist. I havent seen that mech played in while, a long while. It doesnt require a 120k parse or perfect weaving. It can be done on a suboptimal build and has been that way for a while.

In most cases the damage that we ask for to complete a given piece of content isnt because the content requires it, its because we want it. Im not arguing against that, simply saying, its not always required by the content.

Oakensoul users are able to complete dungeon trifectas now, and will be able to after the nerf. The nerfs barely effect that element of gameplay. The 10% nerf to empower is negligable when youre 10 minutes ahead of a 30 min tri in vCT. There are better choices than Storm Masters in 4 person content when you need to make up the pen. That nerf was specifically meant for optimized trial groups.

What it will do is unilaterally nerf every Oakensoul HA build because one class is performing so well. Necro and Wardens, for example, are behind Sorcs.

It is easier, Im not debating that. Its a tossing the baby out with the bathwater scenario though, IMO. The nerf isnt going to stop good players from getting those trifectas because its still more than enough damage, its still just as survivable, and it still has buffs that are either cost prohibitive, or more than what a traditional 2 bar group would have. So what exactly was the point of this adjustment?

AScarlato

Agenericname wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I was late to the HA Oakensoul game, but after seeing Nefas's IR with oaken Sorcs my friends and I decided to give it a go.

It's ridiculous how easy it is to get dungeon trifectas and vet trial Hard Modes when you have nearly 30k health, loads of resistances and a 3 button rotation. We 2 manned mountain God (Scalecaller peak trifecta) in our first try with the build after failing so often on 2 bar builds and will soon have all except the most recent dungeon achievements. Going for Unchained next week.

The fact that one gear/skill combo makes the hardest content trivial means it's way overpowered and absolutely needs a nerf. It feels like you're cheating.

What it will do is unilaterally nerf every Oakensoul HA build because one class is performing so well. Necro and Wardens, for example, are behind Sorcs.

Just want to share I agree with these sentiments. I'm not even using this build on a sorc which is always used as the most problematic example. I don't have the massive tanky stats or extra HP the sorcs have that people always bring up on my class, yet 5 other classes are being nerfed.

beer781993

No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

Raammzzaa

beer781993 wrote: »

No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

Yet some HA sorc groups still manage to fail to pull VoR let alone pop IR somehow… lol

Ishtarknows

Liguar wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

I was late to the HA Oakensoul game, but after seeing Nefas's IR with oaken Sorcs my friends and I decided to give it a go.

It's ridiculous how easy it is to get dungeon trifectas and vet trial Hard Modes when you have nearly 30k health, loads of resistances and a 3 button rotation. We 2 manned mountain God (Scalecaller peak trifecta) in our first try with the build after failing so often on 2 bar builds and will soon have all except the most recent dungeon achievements. Going for Unchained next week.

The fact that one gear/skill combo makes the hardest content trivial means it's way overpowered and absolutely needs a nerf. It feels like you're cheating.


Edited since I didn't answer the question. The damage is fine, but you shouldn't have everything in a build. Either tone down damage and keep resistance/health or reduce damage and keep the health bonuses.
All other builds have to choose between being a glass cannon or lowering DPS to increase survivability.

This is the part I don't understand. You state that you have personally benefited from using it, and will continue to try to use it, but still want have it nerfed so that opportunity isn't there for others. That's just closing the door behind you, and not an argument for nerfing it.

Am I going to use it while it's available? Yes, of course, everybody else is taking advantage, why not me?

Do I think it should have been available in its current state? No, not at all which is why it needs a nerf.

Yazrz

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Am I going to use it while it's available? Yes, of course, everybody else is taking advantage, why not me?

Do I think it should have been available in its current state? No, not at all which is why it needs a nerf.

Firstly, no not everyone is taking advantage in the way you mean, this thread is a clear indication of that!

And the secondly, the second statement does not compute considering the first

Marcus684

beer781993 wrote: »

No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

Wow that's awful. Yes we should definitely nerf HA builds to protect the integrity of this 6-year-old achievement. I'm sure power creep has nothing to do with how much easier it is now.

mattaeus01b16_ESO

Why? Not my place to tell other people how to play unless they ask for help or annoy they H.E. Double hockey sticks out of me!
Lets talk about what really matters. Running passed mobs that take 2 secs to kill vs standing at a door and waiting for 3 mins for argo to clear!

Jammy420

Needs to be nerfed to be maximum 70 percent as strong as where it is now.