HA Nerfs: The Poll

beer781993

Marcus684 wrote: »

beer781993 wrote: »

No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

Wow that's awful. Yes we should definitely nerf HA builds to protect the integrity of this 6-year-old achievement. I'm sure power creep has nothing to do with how much easier it is now.

That was just an example. It's still a challenge with normal builds. Not as hard as years ago but effortless with ha builds.

Dawnbringer, TTT, Godslayer, Unchained, all dungeon titles are completely free and only tanks and maybe healers are sweating. DD barely need to think with a 1 bar build.

Plus why the hack is a ha build performing better than a 2 bar build on frequently moving targets? It's bis in some encounters which is ridiculous.....

TaSheen

I'm not sad for myself - because I don't do that content at all. I'm sad for those who were able to do something they wanted to do for a long time, and now are being gatekept from that - beginning with the devs ("ha builds are getting to close to 2 bar builds") and going on to the rest of you.

I gave up raiding after WoW and RIFT - 10 years was enough. I have good friends who were very happy to find the 1 bar HA builds gave them enough of a boost to get some of the things they'd been beating themselves to death on. They're not as old as I am, but they do have some hand and wrist issues, so the 1 bar setup was really a good thing for them.

I'm hoping the nerf isn't enough to keep them from what they started doing with that content. But of course, if they're still able to do so, the gatekeeping will continue I'm sure.

AScarlato

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not sad for myself - because I don't do that content at all. I'm sad for those who were able to do something they wanted to do for a long time, and now are being gatekept from that - beginning with the devs ("ha builds are getting to close to 2 bar builds") and going on to the rest of you.

I gave up raiding after WoW and RIFT - 10 years was enough. I have good friends who were very happy to find the 1 bar HA builds gave them enough of a boost to get some of the things they'd been beating themselves to death on. They're not as old as I am, but they do have some hand and wrist issues, so the 1 bar setup was really a good thing for them.

I'm hoping the nerf isn't enough to keep them from what they started doing with that content. But of course, if they're still able to do so, the gatekeeping will continue I'm sure.

In the same boat. Was in the #1 US Raid Guild in EQ2 where raiding required coordinating the schedules of 24 people and none of them would be doable just holding down left click. That said, that life is far behind me.

I'm curious what percentage of this game's playerbase cares about Trifectas and titles. I don't even know what these are and certainly never look at anyone's title. I think in a game like this where they want the overland as easy and accessible as possible as a philosophy, they would now then target the one build people seek accessibility options to play with nerfs to appease probably a very small portion of the playerbase.

Marcus684

beer781993 wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

It's pretty sad to see so much gatekeeping - and even sadder to realize the devs are gatekeeping to begin with.

...

I pray that they nerf ha builds in a way that they can't complete trifectas anymore.

I see this view expressed repeatedly by those who dislike oakenbuilds and I just don't understand it. Why does anyone care if someone else can achieve something they did with less effort? Life is full of situations where some people have to struggle and sweat for something while others breeze through it. Why do you "pray" that someone be prevented from obtaining an achievement in a video game? I'd really like to understand this.

TaSheen

AScarlato wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not sad for myself - because I don't do that content at all. I'm sad for those who were able to do something they wanted to do for a long time, and now are being gatekept from that - beginning with the devs ("ha builds are getting to close to 2 bar builds") and going on to the rest of you.

I gave up raiding after WoW and RIFT - 10 years was enough. I have good friends who were very happy to find the 1 bar HA builds gave them enough of a boost to get some of the things they'd been beating themselves to death on. They're not as old as I am, but they do have some hand and wrist issues, so the 1 bar setup was really a good thing for them.

I'm hoping the nerf isn't enough to keep them from what they started doing with that content. But of course, if they're still able to do so, the gatekeeping will continue I'm sure.

In the same boat. Was in the #1 US Raid Guild in EQ2 where raiding required coordinating the schedules of 24 people and none of them would be doable just holding down left click. That said, that life is far behind me.

I'm curious what percentage of this game's playerbase cares about Trifectas and titles. I don't even know what these are and certainly never look at anyone's title. I think in a game like this where they want the overland as easy and accessible as possible as a philosophy, they would now then target the one build people seek accessibility options to play with nerfs to appease probably a very small portion of the playerbase.

Trifectas == timed dungeon runs with hard mode, no death and speed run. I mean, I know what they are, just from reading posts here, but it's not my kind of content at all.

AScarlato

TaSheen wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not sad for myself - because I don't do that content at all. I'm sad for those who were able to do something they wanted to do for a long time, and now are being gatekept from that - beginning with the devs ("ha builds are getting to close to 2 bar builds") and going on to the rest of you.

I gave up raiding after WoW and RIFT - 10 years was enough. I have good friends who were very happy to find the 1 bar HA builds gave them enough of a boost to get some of the things they'd been beating themselves to death on. They're not as old as I am, but they do have some hand and wrist issues, so the 1 bar setup was really a good thing for them.

I'm hoping the nerf isn't enough to keep them from what they started doing with that content. But of course, if they're still able to do so, the gatekeeping will continue I'm sure.

In the same boat. Was in the #1 US Raid Guild in EQ2 where raiding required coordinating the schedules of 24 people and none of them would be doable just holding down left click. That said, that life is far behind me.

I'm curious what percentage of this game's playerbase cares about Trifectas and titles. I don't even know what these are and certainly never look at anyone's title. I think in a game like this where they want the overland as easy and accessible as possible as a philosophy, they would now then target the one build people seek accessibility options to play with nerfs to appease probably a very small portion of the playerbase.

Trifectas == timed dungeon runs with hard mode, no death and speed run. I mean, I know what they are, just from reading posts here, but it's not my kind of content at all.

Thanks, I've seen the term a lot in these discussions but had no idea what they were. I just figured it's some end game thing I have no interest in.

Galeriano

Marcus684 wrote: »

beer781993 wrote: »

No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

Wow that's awful. Yes we should definitely nerf HA builds to protect the integrity of this 6-year-old achievement. I'm sure power creep has nothing to do with how much easier it is now.

Thing is, it's not as easy to do on two bar setups so general power creep have nothing to do with the fact it got way easier between two patches.

maxjapank

I actually find it interesting that so many who don't use HA builds are so against it. It’s an opinion, of course. But one without experience.

Marcus684

Galeriano wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

beer781993 wrote: »

No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

Wow that's awful. Yes we should definitely nerf HA builds to protect the integrity of this 6-year-old achievement. I'm sure power creep has nothing to do with how much easier it is now.

Thing is, it's not as easy to do on two bar setups so general power creep have nothing to do with the fact it got way easier between two patches.

Yes, it's easier, and ZOS designed it that way. ZOS WANTS MORE PLAYERS PARTICIPATING IN AND COMPLETING MORE CONTENT. Is this hard for some people to understand?

AScarlato

Marcus684 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

beer781993 wrote: »

No sorry but the argument, that it requires skill to complete hardmodes or trifectas with 1 Bar sorcs is only partially true. It depends on the content.

Example where it's simply not true: Immortal Redeemer. You simply shield every kite or cone without losing on damage. You don't even have to time the minis or watch your ressources. You're just so tanky it's ridiculous. You don't have to do a hard rotation while playing mechanics, just pressing 1 button. You don't even have to switch targets lol....
Conclusion: Everyone can easily do this with this build even players that could not complete +2 with a normal build. Absolute easy mode and no skill required.

Sorry just playing mechanics without having to watch your rotation, ressources, your surroundings and keeping your uptimes requires no skill at all.

Wow that's awful. Yes we should definitely nerf HA builds to protect the integrity of this 6-year-old achievement. I'm sure power creep has nothing to do with how much easier it is now.

Thing is, it's not as easy to do on two bar setups so general power creep have nothing to do with the fact it got way easier between two patches.

Yes, it's easier, and ZOS designed it that way. ZOS WANTS MORE PLAYERS PARTICIPATING IN AND COMPLETING MORE CONTENT. Is this hard for some people to understand?

I guess not anymore lol.

Agenericname

TaSheen wrote: »

It's pretty sad to see so much gatekeeping - and even sadder to realize the devs are gatekeeping to begin with.

What the devs did in this patch with Oakensoul isn't "gatekeeping" by any stretch of the imagination. 41% of the votes as of right now are from the middle/end game players, (the highest % of groups in this poll) which the OP defined as vet content up to the trifectas. That's what all of this seems to revolve around.

Trifectas are the pinnacle of difficulty of their respective areas. There is also a normal, veteran, and veteran HM tier of difficulty as well to encompass nearly every player's skill level, if they want to clear that content. That's not unreasonable, at all.

The difference between the gear in vet and normal is negligible in terms of performance.

The fact that Oakensoul exists at all indicates that ZOS is taking steps to make that content more accessible, not less.

ZOS did say that the build was getting too cloes to traditional 2 bar builds. What they didn't say was the build were performing too well in the content. Here is the quote for reference;

Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

That, taken in conjunction with the rest, leads me to believe that ZOS is fine with players completing content, even the more challenging content, with this build, but they also wanted to find a balance between the effort it takes to manage a 2 bar build and the simplicity of a 1 bar builds. Oakensoul will still be able to clear content after the nerf.

Im not a fan of the nerf. It nerfs all Oakenoul HA builds as well as 2 bar HA builds, but, it isn't gatekeeping.

As for players doing it? Sure. You can also find Oak only groups running. Why don't the players who feel they are been gated out of the content by other players group up and do it on their own?

Ei8htba11

Game advertises: Any class, Any BUILD, any role..

What kind of HA build do you use, if any?: Oakensoul Lightning Sorc

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for?: To enjoy doing something different from my other characters/playstyle/builds. All content, normal and vet

I play 2 bar characters and the Oakensoul sorc. All seem equally effective in content.

There seems to be some salt about one bar HA Oakensoul builds.. why? It's not like those who use them didn't work for it. You need the expansion, you need the Mythic, you need the right gear sets, you need to spec a character accordingly, All require a time investment. The build also has the disadvantage of only having one bar of skills, some of which are less useful in certain situations.

I never found it to be an 'I win' build, It's just different

maxjapank

Agenericname wrote: »

T but they also wanted to find a balance between the effort it takes to manage a 2 bar build and the simplicity of a 1 bar builds.

Is effort being defined here as keeping track of buff timers and light attack animation canceling?

Agenericname wrote: »

but, it isn't gatekeeping.

Well...gatekeeping has been shown repeatedly in the language that those against heavy attack builds use.

Agenericname wrote: »

As for players doing it? Sure. You can also find Oak only groups running. Why don't the players who feel they are been gated out of the content by other players group up and do it on their own?

Heavy attack players have used this same argument repeatedly for those against heavy attack builds. If some players are so against heavy attack builds, then why don't they form groups with other players only using 2 bar builds?

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

The build also has the disadvantage of only having one bar of skills, some of which are less useful in certain situations. I never found it to be an 'I win' build, It's just different

I think this is an important point. When doing both solo and group content, I have often had to stop and change skills depending on the situation. Wouldn't need to do that with 2 bar builds.

Adaarye

I've read that several members mentioned "effort".

For players like myself that have physical limitations, HA builds are not an easy button.

It was my understanding that Oakensoul was brought about to allow other-abled players to participate more.

So it seems now, other-abled players can participate but not to the same level as those the players that want the nerf and that those 2 bar players have earned the right to do more damage that disabled players who can't use 2 bars gracefully and without pain? That's what I read in the patch notes.

Thats taking my fun away. I feel that I should be able to compete and I can't get my head around why anyone would want to remove this wonderful accessability feature. It's kind of cruel to give those of us with disabilties the ability to participate in any content and then to take it away. That makes me sad.

Games are suppossed to be fun for everyone. Right?

maxjapank

I'd also like to chime in here regarding the "ease or simplicity" of one-bar builds as some put it. One thing I've noticed that I've never had to worry about much on a two-bar build is getting stuck in a heavy attack channel when having to move quickly out of something that could damage or one-shot you. You really cannot wait for your channel to finish and trying to move while channeling is slow. So you have to just quit mid-channel and move. I've never really lost much dmg on a two-bar build using instant cast abilities. Thus, one could say that 2-bar builds are simpler to use in maintaining damage.

Tradewind

Many players believe that Nerf HA build is essential and that those who use it do not deserve to complete challenges like Godslayer. Ok!

I have a question:
why players who use 2 bars and can perform the rotation, but are not at the top-tier elite level, believe they have the same right to obtain objectives as those who are truly top-elite?
If you use 2 bars but are not top-elite, why do you think you deserve the same titles as those who are??

If we want the game to be fair for everyone, why not assign challenges like Godslayer only to those who are in the top rankings?
It's simple! Only those who are truly exceptional deserve to have the title and mount.
When someone surpasses you in the rankings, you lose the title and the mount. You can't keep your title and mount because someone is better than you now. You no longer deserve them. Fair?

If those who use the HA build do not deserve the same titles, then neither do those who are not top-elite in the rotation. We should recognize that they are better than us and only they deserve the titles. You should not be able to carry any of the titles that top elite carries, none of them, because you're not as good as they are.

Just because many of you use two bars and have a mediocre rotation, you deserve to have titles equal to those who are truly top elite, but who uses HA build don't deserves it? Funny.

Seminolegirl1992

Endgame player here. My preferred playstyle is magicka dragonknight LA two bar with your typical meta setups. I do not think HA builds should be nerfed. They're not outperforming two bar setups but continue to remain a viable option for people who are differently abled or those who prefer to play casually (myself included- sometimes I just want to bring the Oakensorc and relax).

I often wonder if these are getting nerfed because high end groups have been using the ring to get trifectas or at the very least hardmode clears on difficult trials. Thing is, these are highly optimized groups that could do just about anything and get clears. Secondly, it's mostly older content where groups are using oakensoul to get trifectas. I think Planesbreaker and Swashbuckler require more dps than that set is able to put out. Hopefully they reconsider nerfs to the ring because more than likely it does not upset the balance of play between HA builds and LA builds.

Agenericname

maxjapank wrote: »

I'd also like to chime in here regarding the "ease or simplicity" of one-bar builds as some put it. One thing I've noticed that I've never had to worry about much on a two-bar build is getting stuck in a heavy attack channel when having to move quickly out of something that could damage or one-shot you. You really cannot wait for your channel to finish and trying to move while channeling is slow. So you have to just quit mid-channel and move. I've never really lost much dmg on a two-bar build using instant cast abilities. Thus, one could say that 2-bar builds are simpler to use in maintaining damage.

"Simplicity" was the term used by the devs when they explained why they were doing this. The quote was theirs, and it can be found in the patch notes. It is an objectively simpler build than even a 2 bar HA build, which is one of the simpler of the 2 bar builds.

To answer the questions you asked, yes, I would assume given the language that they used, they were indeed speaking of DOT/buff timers and animation canceling. Id go further and say that probably meant weaving light attacks since they used the phrase "high end builds." Since animation canceling is very general and virtually every player does it, even Oakensoul players, I doubt that they meant that in the general sense.

Yes, other players do sometimes attempt to gatekeep. Thats not what ZOS did and not what I was responding to.

In my opinion, the mythic should be toned down a little, but not how they're doing. I wouldnt advise such a broad approach to it and if the choice were "leave it alone" or this, I'd choose "leave it alone" most likely. There are a few things that make this nerf, while it wont stop people from completing content, still make it a little too broad in scope. It targets all heavy attack builds, not just Oakensoul. Of the Oakensoul users, it targets all of the classes, and they arent all performing at the same level.

If it were me, and Im not really telling you or anyone else what to do, and I wanted to give my opinion to ZOS on why this version of the nerf isnt all that great, I would steer away from "gatekeeping" and focus on why its too broad.

carlos424

Kusto wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

HA build is so mediocre, if ZOS nerf it, ppl again go with 2 bars

Its mediocre for only tiny % of players, the ones parsing 130k. For most players its OP. Everyone parsing less than that will do better with oaken in content. They dont need to nerf it to the ground but you shouldn't be able to do ez HMs and trifectas with it either.

Easy Trifecta and Hard Modes? That's just not true for many of us. And if people are able to get them a little easier, good for them. There is nothing wrong with it.

Go to Craglorn. Its packed with Immortal Redeemers. I know several people who could barely parse 50k before Oakensoul and now are flexing their titles. And it's not just the trials. vMA and vVH trifectas used to mean something but now every noob has them. It just can't get any easier, holding down 1 button while tanky af. It has devalued the titles. Think about the people who put in the time and effort to get them.
The current nerf on pts is not enough. 5k dps loss is not gonna change anything. They need to look at it again. Maybe nerf Sergeant's also and empower some more too. Dps with this should sit somewhere around 60k, not 95 like currently on pts. 60k still allows people to do vet non hm trials. Otherwise everyone and their mom will keep using oaken. How is this healthy for the game?

It’s more like an 8-9k dps loss which is fairly significant, considering the ceiling wasn’t that high. That being said, I think a small adjustment was probably warranted. The vashm is definitely the easiest hm to do with this setup, but I don’t think it’s a big deal. You still have to follow mechanics, etc. Does it devalue the title? I guess that’s debatable. But more people attempting and being able complete more content, more people enjoying their gaming experience……how can that not be healthy for the game? Especially, a game that was seeing some serious decline 6 months ago.

Soarora

Hey, hey. Although I agree with many points being mentioned here, this isn’t a discussion post. Discussions can derail and get the thread locked and bury the surveys. There’s already plenty of threads to comment on and I’m sure new ones have been made since I’ve last checked as well.

My view on this is very clear based on my comments in other threads but I guess I should do my own survey since my POV doesn’t seem well recognized.

What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?)
I do not use a HA build very much. I have attempted to create 2-bar lightning HA sorc builds on my own though.

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for? (Ease of use, casual, have a disability, etc. / Overland, normal dungeons, veteran trials, etc.)
I wanted a petsorc dps/healer for random normal/vet dungeons and HA is all the rage right now so might as well try it. Should probably use oakensoul but not sure if I can bring myself to do that.

If you are in support of nerfs, what nerfs would you like and what DPS range should the build have?
Minor aegis should be removed from Oakensoul, it’s not a DPS buff and having all 3 role buffs on one item is not a good idea. Alternatively, remove Empower from Oakensoul and add a new mythic centered on HA builds. 100% Empower, allows barswap, maybe buffs other weapons than lightning, maybe causes HA to take resources rather than be a free damage button. As I commented on earlier in this thread, targeting empower doesn’t look like it’s the best course of action. Parroting what I’ve heard in these threads, the interaction with lightning staff and empower should be looked at as well. I think the damage ceiling of today’s HA builds should be 75k. Enough to do vet trials but clearly not as good as a traditional build (ideally the survivability will also be lost). However, also think the floor of the build should be 45k, the entrance-level of DPS. I’m sure that it’s possible to create these parameters by buffing/nerfing strategically.

What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete? (Veteran dungeon, veteran trial, trial HM, trial trifecta, etc.)
Veteran trial. This lets people get all of their gear and get through mid-game without being too useful in endgame (see below).

Optionally, why should/n’t the build be nerfed?
It is great people are able to do content they would not have otherwise and I’m genuinely sorry that I’m advocating for that as we currently know it to be taken away. However, I hope people can at least try to understand where I’m coming from. Endgamers who are well capable of using traditional builds ARE using heavy attack builds because it’s easier and completes the same content. No point in making things harder for themselves. My opinions, all of them, come from people who use HA builds or my own experience playing with HA build users. I’m not just reading the buff list and making things up. It’s literally inescapable in my circles.
- I have done IR (Asylum Sanctorium Trifecta) as a group healer with a heavy attack tank healer and all but 1 heavy attack DPS. I did not have to heal as much as I did for non-HA centric groups. People were commenting on the high cleave, the high survivability, how the iconic sustain issues were no problem, and how it would be an easy trifecta. I no longer see asylum sanctorium runs that welcome non-oakensoul builds. At this rate, I’ll never complete vAS+2 as DPS even though I want to. My IR feels dirty because I didn’t have to complete the fullest extent of my role.
- I cannot explain the amount of times I have heard that oakensoul HA makes things easy and boring. I try to avoid hearing it but it’s hard when it’s everywhere, I’d have to abandon almost everyone (I’m not kidding— it’s THAT MANY PEOPLE) I’ve run with for years and only run in 4-man completely closed groups. Even then, I’d have to ban the discussion of it around me when possible. It’s not so easy as “get off the forums and don’t pug”. It’s brought up so often and people run the build so much that just this week it’s been the topic of conversation 4 independent times at minimum.
- The above goes as far as to make endgame achievements much easier, if not easy. Is it so bad that I want to feel pride about what I have accomplished? It’s hard when people say “x trifecta doesn’t mean anything” and everyone running HA builds while saying it’s an easy build. Progging for trifectas is MY fun. “Let people have their fun” / “it’s just a game people shouldn’t have to prog”… why does your definition of fun matter any more than mine? Especially when mine is how things have been running…
- Not only is AS now barred from me, there’s plenty of dungeon runs too. Trifectas, hardmode dlc, even just random dungeons. Heavy attack sorc only.

At the end of the day, your build may hit 30k or 50k or whatever dps. You may be attacked by bullies when you should not be, just because of your HAs. But that does not change the fact that it IS at the SAME level as traditional builds in all ways that matter. You may not see it, I see it extremely often, in several guilds, in several people, in several groups. It’s ruined endgame for me. I shouldn’t pretend I matter over the majority, but I’m still allowed to voice my opinions. If I have to quit doing things I enjoy because of this then fine. At least ZOS sees the problem and I hope they continue to pursue solving it. Nothing any of us say matter anyways.

AScarlato

Soarora wrote: »

***Clipped for how long the quote was and took up too much space***.

You are still free to work towards your trifects without HA builds and find a group of like-minded people to do so, so you can feel that sense of accomplishment. You and/or your trial mates are voluntarily using this build, it's not forced on you. You can all choose to use the more challenging (and higher dps) 2-bar builds. Not seeing how any of this justifies a nerf to others for their decisions.

Soarora

AScarlato wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Hey, hey. Although I agree with many points being mentioned here, this isn’t a discussion post. Discussions can derail and get the thread locked and bury the surveys. There’s already plenty of threads to comment on and I’m sure new ones have been made since I’ve last checked as well. […]

You are still free to work towards your trifects without HA builds and find a group of like-minded people to do so, so you can feel that sense of accomplishment. You and/or your trial mates are voluntarily using this build, it's not forced on you. You can all choose to use the more challenging (and higher dps) 2-bar builds. Not seeing how any of this justifies a nerf to others for their decisions.

Again, there’s plenty of places to discuss the topic other than here. But fine. You’re right in that I can choose my groups, and I do so, however it is not possible in all cases, and as it seems implied in these discussions, if I were to exclude HA builds specifically I’m a bad person. It’s lose/lose. I literally cannot find trial runs without HA builds anymore nor can I trust guildmates to not use it. And at the end of the day, all the discussions about how it’s easy are bringing me distress no matter what and its INESCAPABLE unless I abandon running with quite a lot of people and mute all commonly used places of conversation in multiple guilds. I’m not kidding nor being hyperbolic. An easy build should not be at the same level as a traditional build and it is. People can try to gaslight me all they want. I see proof with my own eyes. Often.

TKo_ROUSE

About me: I have all trifecta's except Planesbreaker but finger's crossed will have that soonish.

Personally I do not care if they nerf this item or not. It doesn't affect me a ton. I have done my share of OakenVAS though (mainly as tank) and got probably 10 IR's in the span of 2 week at one point. I have helped many players get their first IR this way. I do however think they are going about nerfing it the wrong way.

I don't think the single target is really that big of an issue, it pales in comparison to 2 bar builds. If they wanted to bring back damage they should honestly look at the cleave of it maybe (trifocus nerf?). But honestly I would be looking at the tankiness of the build instead. I think that is where the true unfair advantage lies. People literally stand in mechs, hit a healy bird to easily recover where any 2 bar player would have died. At least make mechanics be punishing for all builds. Maybe start with minor protection and minor aegis. The build already has the advantage of being able to run bi or tri stat foods as recovery means almost nothing to them. If they really insist on nerfing damage they should be looking at ways to reduce it on sorc instead, the other classes seem way behind.

To those that are super worried. The empower nerf seems very minor. I guarantee currently that oakenvAS will still be easy. We might go from 3-3:30 kills to 4 minute kills. If you have good OT the mini's will still melt to cleave. It might affect trials a little more than 4 man content overall though with the storm master nerf.

But again i vote no opinion as it has such a minor affect on me. Just offering some thoughts on other ways they could have brought this up.

Stx

So I am mainly a solo/dungeon player. I call myself a casual because I spend more time in real life than I used to and play less frequently. But when it comes to how I play the game, I wouldn’t say casual, I definitely min/max. I just prefer the challenge of soloing veteran dungeons over the challenge of completing group content.

With that said, I play both heavy attack builds and light attack builds. I will say that I basically only play Oakensoul builds. I just find the game more fun to play one bar with five active skills vs two bars with 2-3 buffs and 6-7 active skills.

I personally don’t think heavy attack builds need a nerf, because I can put out more dps on a light attack build. I honestly don’t even think light attack builds are that much harder to play, but I’ve been playing since 2014 so the timing is just etched in my brain I guess. The point is, I enjoy heavy attack builds because they offer build diversity in a game where there honestly is very little build diversity. Also, the data shows that while heavy attack builds are easier to hit 90k with, light attack builds can top out much higher, so I really don’t see evidence for needing a nerf.

usmcjdking

I do think they should be nerfed, and HA builds haven't been interesting for me since Molten Armaments got reworked.

The reason why isn't necessarily their dummy DPS - I think their relative DPS in a static environment is actually fine. What I don't like is two things

1) Lightning + Resto benefit way too much from HA sets. Other weapons heavy attacks are miles behind in performance.

2) Time on Target for ranged HA is exceptionally high and skews their practical DPS equal to or higher than a more complex build. This is a mechanics issue and not something that can be readily fixed .

UtopianWarrior88

The proposed nerf on PTS is absolutely within reason and oakensoul ring as facilitator I think might even lose a bit more defensiveness.

It still enables players to access vet content, but it is not so overpower that it negates the playstyle of dual bar LA builds. Seems fine.

redlink1979

This is all about the same old "issue": balance between PvP and PvE.

PS - I don't use HA builds. Not my thing.

Sarannah

The real question this thread seems to bring up is: Should dual bar LA weaving builds be the only viable endgame builds?

Reading through this thread, some seem to want that to be the only viable endgame builds, while others seem to want to expand the endgame to be covered by multiple different builds/playstyles. So far the side with only one endgame buildtype is winning, and supported by the devs. But at the same time, this keeps almost everyone else away from endgame content. So I don't think only having dual bar LA weaving builds as the only viable endgame builds is good for the game as a whole. Time will tell.

This thread is actually really interesting to read!

sPark101

Might want to explain what "HA" is/means,
No Opinion.

LunaFlora

sPark101 wrote: »

Might want to explain what "HA" is/means,
No Opinion.

HA is short for Heavy Attack