HA Nerfs: The Poll

Soarora

This is NOT another discussion thread if you want to argue about this there’s like… at least 5 other threads you can do so on. I just thought it’d be nice to have an anonymous poll about it to see the opinions of forum users in one place. Do not get this locked please.

Poll option clarifications:
- Casually = overland, normal arenas, normal dungeons, normal trials, some vet content
- Middle/Endgame = veteran arenas, veteran trials, veteran dungeons, hardmodes, trifectas, and other associated achievements


This would be best done as a survey so if you are interested:

What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?)

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for? (Ease of use, casual, have a disability, etc. / Overland, normal dungeons, veteran trials, etc.)

If you are in support of nerfs, what nerfs would you like and what DPS range should the build have?

What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete? (Veteran dungeon, veteran trial, trial HM, trial trifecta, etc.)

Optionally, why should/n’t the build be nerfed?

Thank you.

TaSheen

I've never used HA - it's not an attractive playstyle at all for me, so I have absolutely no opinion on nerfing HA.

Cazador

I don't use heavy attack builds and have no problem with them. I'm perfectly happy that people can do more in the game with one and don't see nerfs to be necessary since they already underperform compared to light attack builds.

LunaFlora

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for? (Ease of use, casual, have a disability, etc. / Overland, normal dungeons, veteran trials, etc.)
What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?)


i'm disabled and mainly use heavy attacks because light attack weaving quickly hurts. most often i play with a warden and use bow or frost staff and sometimes two handed or lightning staff. with oakensoul since it released.
with either relequen's and order's wrath or frostbite and order's wrath


though i also used to use venomous' smite(which is one of my favourite sets)
which i now use for my Templar with false god's and oakensoul with an inferno staff.


i have another character i occasionally play on that's a sorcerer which since recently has the popular storm master and sergeants mail oakensoul build , i was already using a lightning staff with her though before was just using mad tinkerer's and mother's sorrow with slimecraw and oakensoul.


and i'm just happy i can complete a lot of dungeons solo, calmly complete normal vateshran hollows whenever i want to and have even managed to complete veteran vateshran hollows once. most world bosses are fine to do solo as well which definitely was way harder before oakensoul. i also do veteran dungeons but not veteran trials with my builds. i've only done veteran trials as a healer.




heavy attack builds should be able to do any content and the damage being less makes that harder. using oakensoul already makes it impossible to get the same damage that two bar builds can get.


however it's not easy mode as many people have said elsewhere, if i didn't learn the mechanics of any of the content i have completed solo i wouldn't have been able to do it. the higher damage that i wouldn't be able to achieve without heavy attacks helps but it isn't everything.

SickleCider

I'm coming off the back end of vet arenas and trials. I've done my time in front of dummies practicing my weaving, but I'm getting older and my arthritis is worsening. I often play with braces on both wrists to mitigate some of the pain. I've had to change my strategy. Just this week I reconstructed some Sergeant's Mail and it's...okay. (Edit: Oakensoul with lightning staff. Sorc.) Amazing for my wrists, but DPS-wise, just okay. I don't see the need for a nerf. Regardless what they do, I don't think I can go back to the weaving play style. I'll literally hurt myself.

(Side note: I usually play Fromsoftware games, Demon's Souls through Elden Ring, and Monster Hunter, stuff like that. No other game causes me the pain this one does. There is something uniquely ruinous about weaving.)

fizl101

What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?)

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for? (Ease of use, casual, have a disability, etc. / Overland, normal dungeons, veteran trials, etc.)

I use an oakensorc HA build. This only happened after the significant changes to templar in U35. I am not a swapping and changing characters type of person to chase metas release after release. My PVE stamplar (yep stamplar) was my quester, my crafter, and was also my character used in a core group, working on hard modes and starting to work on trifectas. When U35 hit, the change to the core abilities, plus the change to the animation was just the icing on the cake of a few patches of losing DPS. To remain competitive in mid/end game trials I would have had to basically become a magplar in a stamplar body in order to beam my way through content. I tried for quite a while to continue with my stamplar as a main and eventually gave up the trialling side on her. In frustration I changed an old sorc I had created and didn't enjoy playing into an oakensorc, which gives me enough enjoyment to continue with vet/hm trials.

Will it give me as much deeps as my friend hitting 130k+? Nope, they will still solo sunspire portals etc, but it gives me enough to do the trials I enjoy. My stamplar is now a crafter and quester only, even though I got my first trial trifecta on her.

Tradewind

I honestly don't understand how many players accept and believe that the Nerf is welcome when it only benefits a few players and harms many more.

El_Borracho

Got a heavy attack sorc for PVP and VMA. No use for one in any other part of the game.

isadoraisacat

I use it I enjoy the play style.
I can weave and bar swap I just hate it and is immersion breaking and painful with my hand issues.

I like HA because it feels closer to a classic tes game and doesn’t cause issues with my hand.

Please do not nerf it.

chessalavakia_ESO

I've used Heavy Attacks in my rotation before Oakensoul had Empower.

I use it to restore resources and for utility purposes (Heal with restoration staff/AOE with lightning staff)

I don't think it should be nerfed without a combat overhaul.

The reality is that ZOS has let the damage get out of control, has failed to control poor player behavior regarding damage, and has produced content with higher damage requirements.

As a result, it became necessary to make Heavy Attack builds better to fill the gap.

If you fix the underlying issues, you can take the cast off.

If the underlying issues aren't fixed and you take the cast off it can go badly.

mdjessup4906

What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?)

Storm master/seargents/oakensoul.

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for? (Ease of use, casual, have a disability, etc. / Overland, normal dungeons, veteran trials, etc.)

I have it in my tank so I don't have to respec him for doing overland and questing. Just change sets and it's easy and convienent damage enough for that.

I also recently switched my ancient stamsorc to it so I can still be a dps when needed until I get better at weaving on a regular build.

If you are in support of nerfs, what nerfs would you like and what DPS range should the build have?

Meh.

What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete? (Veteran dungeon, veteran trial, trial HM, trial trifecta, etc.)

I think it should be able to do anything. Let people have their fun.

Optionally, why should/n’t the build be nerfed?

Because it's fine how it is. It's a playstyle. An annoying one (I hate heavy attacking) but a playstyle nevertheless. Want to do 2 bar, do 2 bar. Want to weave for that extra push or just because you like it, do that. Nothing's stopping anyone. There's already classes in the game that are easier (sorc, templar) or harder (nightblade) to dps on, this is just one more easy, and thankfully not class locked, option.

Agenericname

I do use the build occassionally and I do use it for mid-endgame content. I chose "no opinion" simply because, at the current moment, the changes coming in U38 dont seem unreasonable. Im willing to wait and see.

Im of the opinion that between the 10% nerf to Empower and the new mythic that we may see a bit more transitional space between a pure HA build and a pure 2 bar LA build in update 38. Im not sure that the nerf to Storm Master's was really necessary.

Sorc, Necro, and Warden are the classes that I have played with it. Necro is my favorite because enjoy playing it 2 bar as well and its pretty easy (on PC anyway) to swap back and forth. Sorc is the strongest.

If we compared a Warden or Necro Oakensoul build to a traditional 2 bar build, would they appear as strong as the sorc does? My guess, and its somewhat unsubstantiated because the majority of the players are using a sorc, is that they wouldnt stack up quite as nicely. I dont think that many of those are getting as close to a traditional 2 bar build.

Their dummy parse still translates to content well, but theyre not as strong. So a blanket nerf to Oakensoul will effect them as well and possibly remove the diversity that was there previously, granted, there wasnt much to start with.

That said, its not that bad and Im not worked up over it. We will see what it looks like when it makes it to live.

markulrich1966

>What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?):

1.) sorcerers/Nightblades/Necros: Sergeants Mail, Elegant, Sellistrix (mobs) or slimecraw (bosses)

2.) classes with a class that grants a good empower skill (Templar/DK): Sergeants Mail, Torugs Pact or New Moon Accolyte, Sellistrix or Slimecraw.

Playing casual, non DLC (cancelled ESO+ to avoid random DLC dungeons and for other resons).
Reason: I'm 57, have bad reflexes and weaving hurts my hands, not willing to ruin my health for a game.

Against further nerf, because:
yes, the damage of empower was increased from 40 to 80%, but on the downside heavy attacks were *massively* nerfed with U35. So empower just allows to use HA again the way you could use it before the nerf using standard sets like Mothers Sorrow+Torugs Pact. I hate scrying so oakensoul is a no-go for me.

HA as a general playstyle was completely destroyed, as it now requires *massive* grind (wayrest sewers for sergeants mail, Oakensoul for Empower if you don't use a combination with less damage as I do (Elegant), more if you want to play more difficult content like stormmaster in addition).

The current HA builds are the only option ZoS has left for players by destroying the former variety.
If they destroy this last resort, I'm done with this game.
If they want to get me back for ESO+, they must add *more* variety again and remove the grind.

Liguar

I started with an oakensoul sorc, using sergeants mail/noble duelist, no pets.
I now am trying oakensoul dk, noble duelist/ pillar of nirn. I need to collect a lot of transmutes to finish it and it might be less powerful than the sorc but I like it and intend to use it going forward.

Why do you use this build and what do you use it for?
Casual- overworld, DLC dungeons, solo/duo with companions. These builds allow me to explore more of the game without wrecking my fingers. it's also easier on my eyeballs from over the top spell effects. Looking forward to trying the endless dungeon.

What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete?
I don't aspire to do any trials or proper group content in ESO, so my opinion is not for myself, but I do think it's a valid build type. The gear sets exist, the mechanic exists. I'm not sure why any particular content should be gated behind higher apm.

In previous mmorpgs where I did participate in endgame content, I would have thought that more people being willing and able to get into endgame was a bonus to the community, not a detriment.

jaws343

Didn't vote because I think an important option is missing:

Use heavy attack builds, no need to nerf, but proposed nerf isn't an issue.

Tradewind

markulrich1966 wrote: »

>What kind of HA build do you use, if any? (Oakensoul? 2 Bar? Sorc? Something else?):

1.) sorcerers/Nightblades/Necros: Sergeants Mail, Elegant, Sellistrix (mobs) or slimecraw (bosses)

2.) classes with a class that grants a good empower skill (Templar/DK): Sergeants Mail, Torugs Pact or New Moon Accolyte, Sellistrix or Slimecraw.

Playing casual, non DLC (cancelled ESO+ to avoid random DLC dungeons and for other resons).
Reason: I'm 57, have bad reflexes and weaving hurts my hands, not willing to ruin my health for a game.

Against further nerf, because:
yes, the damage of empower was increased from 40 to 80%, but on the downside heavy attacks were *massively* nerfed with U35. So empower just allows to use HA again the way you could use it before the nerf using standard sets like Mothers Sorrow+Torugs Pact. I hate scrying so oakensoul is a no-go for me.

HA as a general playstyle was completely destroyed, as it now requires *massive* grind (wayrest sewers for sergeants mail, Oakensoul for Empower if you don't use a combination with less damage as I do (Elegant), more if you want to play more difficult content like stormmaster in addition).

The current HA builds are the only option ZoS has left for players by destroying the former variety.

If they destroy this last resort, I'm done with this game.
If they want to get me back for ESO+, they must add *more* variety again and remove the grind.

In my opinion, as I have said before, all players who use HA builds should have the right to complete any content in this game. They should be allowed to complete any content.

Before Oakensoul, if players like you and me formed a group with other players like us who struggled with rotations, we would never be able to complete the hardest content. However, now we can! We can find people like us who struggle with rotations and complete any content using Oakensoul or/+ HA builds. Zenimax even sold Oakensoul to allow this.

And dear Zenimax: This isn't this what PvE-Multiplayer is all about? Creating a group with 4 or 12 players and adventuring into a Dungeon\Trial. When you understand the mechanics and have enough DPS, you can try to go further into HM. If not this, then what else?

But now they are planning to nerf it because "HA builds are getting too close to top elite players"?
Most of these top players do not play with us. They have the right to choose who they play with, and most of them reject all who play with HA builds.

Zenimax may will prohibit us from achieving the most complicated content without any reason at all.

edit:
We don't deserve to be part of a world record teams, and we don't want to be.
All we want is to play the game with the build we truly need, which is the only build we can use (for various reason) to complete any of the hardest content.

mocap

ZOS will nerf it. Then buff it. Then nerf it. Etc.
Welcome to MMO games with meta balance. The sooner you accept it as inevitable, the easier it will be.

Varana

I usually use a classic 2-bar build on my sorcerer, and have an Oakensoul setup that I use in specific fights, esp. when following more complex mechanics or survivability is more important than hitting raw numbers.

Agree with jaws343: The nerf on the PTS is not something that you should lose sleep over. Or post 6d12+24 forum comments about.

Hamfast

I am of the opinion that if you don't like it, don't use it... for everything in the game. I have seen post after post from people I call "Oaken Haters" and I wonder who I am hurting when I run around with my Oakensoul builds... I am not lowering their DPS, or affecting it at all, I am just able to do more content myself.

Like others have said, I have some health and mobility issues that make some things difficult, I have played this game since Beta, I remember when animation canceling was railed against, but it was allowed to remain because it allowed people to excel, some said it was a bug that needed to be fixed, it was a skill set that should be nerfed, and as hard as I tried, I never did get the hang of it (yes, many hours on target dummies until my hands got so sore I had to stop) but I was against that nerf just like I am against this one.

I have been reading these forums for years, I have seen hundreds of posts on PvP issues, many pointed out problems with item sets and other valid issues, but there were a bunch that said "Nerf this because..." followed by a reason that was based on the poster's views... I was against those nerfs even if I had no skin in the game, I don't PvP if I can help it.

I can finally participate in Vet Content again, I am not worried about hard modes but heck, I am not worried about Vet content either, but it is nice that I can hold my own with friends and guild mates... I can contribute more than just moral support to the effort.

I have 4 Oakensoul builds, Sorc, Necro, Warden and Templar, I like them all and have fun with them, and I think that should be the point in all of this, I HAVE FUN WITH THEM... let me have my fun.

Lavennin

I use HA in dungeon trifecta runs (HA Oakensoul Necro), and for this reason I believe it’s a little too powerful compared to regular builds. My optimized 2-bar builds can never clear the same content with this kind of ease and that doesn’t sound right to me.

The upcoming nerf is fair and for the sake of casual players, don’t nerf it too much. -10% Empower looks fine. Keep it as an easy alternative that outperforms 2-bar builds in casual content, but gets outclassed in organized groups.

I imagine this would please most players except those that try to clear hardcore content with a casual mindset, which doesn’t make any sense in my humble opinion. Not all content is made for everyone and you don’t have to be there if you don’t enjoy the challenge.

ADarklore

I selected NA because, while I do use HA in my World Boss/Group Dungeon boss build... I rarely use it outside of those two. The idea that a 10% nerf was made to put a tiny space between elite players and regular players is trivial IMO. I run Oakensoul on almost all my builds, and this 10% nerf to EMPOWER is not a big deal at all to me. I'm glad they nerfed Empower and not Oakensoul itself... they could have just removed Empower from the ring altogether- and then where would everyone be? The slight nerf is nothing and I don't see what all the big fuss is about. IMO, you shouldn't be able to do Elite damage with a one-bar build in the first place, but doing enough to successful contribute and finish all available content should be possible with a one-bar build. In other words, one-bar builds should NOT be topping the charts, at all. I think that is where ZOS is going with this. Walking the fine line between pleasing the Elitists but also not alienating those who depend on the Oakensoul ring to get through content.

merpins

The vote is pretty charged so I'm not even gonna vote for no opinion, since I do have an opinion.

a 10% nerf to empower alone is a 2-6% dps drop overall to HA builds. It's not super significant. But I don't think it should be nerfed beyond that, nor do I think it really needed a nerf to begin with. It's a tool to help players, and isn't a particularly strong option for endgame.

Necrotech_Master

i dont use a HA build, though i was considering experimenting with one on a toon that is getting nerfed in a different way (plaguebreak for pve purposes)

i dont think they need a nerf, though it would be nice if the HA sets treated weapons more evenly, they do obviously make lightning or resto staves the "go to" for heavy attack build because they are triple dipping in the HA set bonuses

dual wield double dips in the HA bonus, while all others only have the HA set bonus apply once

so while you can use any weapon type for a HA build, using either a resto or lightning staff is phenomenally better for both triple dipping on the HA set bonuses and the tri focus passive for cleave dmg

overall i think the bonuses and buffs themselves are in a fine/balanced spot, but every weapon should be viable for a decent HA build instead of one greatly overperforming (lightning staff)

SkaiFaith

1) What kind of HA build do you use, if any?
- Warden, Oakensoul, Necropotence, Plague Doctor.

2) Why do you use this build and what do you use it for?
- I have nerves issues that make impossible for me to use my hands properly. Thanks to this build I am able to clear most DLC World Bosses, Normal Group Dungeons and World Events completely solo. I'm not willing to put the effort to go Veteran because I can't stand the pain.

3) If you are in support of nerfs, what nerfs would you like and what DPS range should the build have?
- ///

4) What is the highest level of content should HA in its current iteration be able to complete?
- I don't partecipate in group activities so my vision is that HA builds as they are now should at least enable people to clear every piece of content in Normal difficulty. World Bosses, Arenas, DLC Dungeons, Trials... In Normal those should be doable without too much effort. Being able to achieve Veteran would be a nice add. Personally I would never ever aim for trifectas so I don't have an educated opinion on that.

5) why should/n’t the build be nerfed?
- it should NOT be nerfed. Those who say these builds don't require effort can only talk for themselves, they are certainly not talking for those who still struggle using them. It's lovely that I am now, finally, able to clear the content I listed in point n.2, which before I really couldn't, but my physical limitations are not gone away and eventual nerfs could push me back preventing me to enjoy said content. This is true for a lot of people for sure. (Just my opinion, not gonna argue)

Kirawolfe

I use it for fun, and appreciate that other people can use it and have fun without busting their hands.

No nerf, thanks.

Soarora

I’m glad I made this poll and thanks all who have done the survey so far, I’m surprised to see how many people use setups outside of the meta setup for HA and how many casuals are concerned about nerfs. Goes to show to me that empower shouldn’t be touched, if anything is nerfed it should be things that particularly affect the meta HA setup rather than all HA builds.

Edit: This also explains the disparity of understanding on how well HA builds can preform. It definitely can do trifectas right now but I see why people think it’s worse off than traditional builds since outside of the meta setup the build probably doesn’t do much damage.

El_Borracho

@Soarora I don't think the ability to get trifectas means much anymore. Anyone with knowledge of mechanics can probably hit those on a PVP build these days. Heck, I've got them on a stamblade werewolf with some guildies on a last minute raid.

I don't care if people run Oakensorc HA builds, or traditional builds. This game is about having fun. More raids, more fun. Don't need to bring back the days of elitists scoffing at someone's build. For me, the HA sorc is just meh when it comes to gameplay. But others like it. If they can hold their own in a trial, welcome aboard.

This isn't the first time HA sorcs have been strong, viable PVE options. There was a time when the Petsorc with Necropotence was a go-to setup. That went away. Oakensoul will eventually suffer the same fate. And for those who say "never," the VMA Inferno was the top weapon you could have in ESO for years, until one day it was useless.

The reality is that the basis for high DPS in this game has always been the LA/Animation cancelling weave. Its worthwhile to learn if someone likes endgame group PVE. And until that goes away, HA builds run the risk of the nerfhammer coming down.

vsrs_au

I voted, but I'm not providing any other details, due to the amount of prejudice on this forum against certain playstyles and/or equipment. I'm not comfortable sharing this information any more.

Marcus684

I use a HA oaken build on all my mag characters for casual content because my tryhard days are behind me. I'd rather slap on the ring and do some RNDs or a normal trial fun run and not have to play concert pianist on my keyboard, and deal with the achy hands that result. The last time I practiced on a dummy, which was quite a few years back before the introduction of the trial dummy, I could hit just below 40k DPS, which was considered fairly good at the time. Age and a career in construction have taken a toll on my hands and I can't bear to do the LA weave dance anymore, so I threw together a Sergeants/Noble Duelist HA build with Oakensoul (basically a Skinny Cheeks build with gold weapon and purple armor/rings), and I can hit about 35k on a standard dummy and almost 70k on the trial dummy. Now I can do an RND, help out with a normal trial or some nDSA/nBRP farming, and still go mess around in Cyrodiil without having to log out early due to achy hands.

I'm really glad that ZOS added the ring to the game, as it has allowed me to continue to participate at the casual level that I enjoy. I personally didn't see the need for ZOS to nerf it based on the ability of a few top players to hit DPS values approaching good 2-bar numbers, but I also don't think a small nerf will have any significant affect on me and am willing to take ZOS' word on why a nerf is needed.

endgamesmug

I use it occasionally but less and less as its affecting my performance with other classes on 2bar

spartaxoxo

I almost never use any other character besides my main. That character is a two-bar, light attack focused Templar. I do have a HA alt but I've played it all of once in the last few months, outside of crafting writs. I don't think it needed the nerf.