So when can small family/friends-only guilds sell and get guild bank storage?

snowmanflvb14_ESO

not sure how a small family guild could defend a keep to really use a store. As for inner guild I would assume if you were a small family type guild you would not need to sell to each other. for the bank you need all of 10 people.

Ekeiram

Why do you need a store if you are with 20 people. Just use the mail and guild chat and work together.


if you want to make a profit , well than you have to do something , join a trade guild, advertise in chat , use the forums , be creative.

it is different than other MMO's and thats why I love it. I will find my way in selling what I craft. and atm I am still so low level, I only craft for myself and my low level friends

ShinChuck

tarvokb14a_ESO wrote: »

That said, while I agree with Bethsoft's decision, I think they should have just let the small guilds have guild stores, because people are stupid and complain about things they don't understand, and it wouldn't hurt anything to allow small guilds to have guild stores.

Or they understand completely, but have different wants/desired than you.

But the attitude aside, I am glad to see you're for the idea anyway! Too many people have an attitude of "It doesn't bother me how it is, so I'm going to argue against it even if the change won't affect me" when it comes to MMOs and changes/updates.

Sharee

Thesiren wrote: »

Zenimax needs to realize that people specifically choose small friends/family guilds and don't necessarily want 24/7 chat spam from a bunch of other guilds they don't even want to be in, just so they can actually sell items and get guild bank storage.

Each guild you join has a separate guild chat. So you can join a small friends/family guild to chat with, then a large trading guild for the store, then disable the second guild's chat. If all your small guild's members do this, then its virtually the same as if your small guild had a store.

KerinKor

The lack of an AH was one of the major reasons FFXIV V1 failed.

Trading is a core part of any MMO and ESO's design of forcing players to join massive guilds simply to take part in this game's economy is going to *** a lot of people off.

I don't want to be in a mega-guild simply to be able to trade, all the time risking being kicked out if someone decides to be a jerk and thus lose my ability to trade.

Yes, that's the only way to sensibly trade, spamming chat channels for hours on end is NOT PLAYING THE GAME, it's entirely NOT FUN!

Greydog

Ekeiram wrote: »

Why do you need a store if you are with 20 people. Just use the mail and guild chat and work together.


if you want to make a profit , well than you have to do something , join a trade guild, advertise in chat , use the forums , be creative.

it is different than other MMO's and thats why I love it. I will find my way in selling what I craft. and atm I am still so low level, I only craft for myself and my low level friends

Because even a solo player has trading needs.

..and you may have missed where it was pointed out that workarounds are not a trade system

Different is fine but this is poorly thought out in terms of access to the greater market that should be available to the average player. Most of whom would rather not jump thru hoops just to unload some loot.

I love this game and want to play. But all this punitive forced socialization is leaning me toward cancelling my sub before I actually start paying.

Thesiren

Greydog wrote: »

Because even a solo player has trading needs.

..and you may have missed where it was pointed out that workarounds are not a trade system

Different is fine but this is poorly thought out in terms of access to the greater market that should be available to the average player. Most of whom would rather not jump thru hoops just to unload some loot.

I love this game and want to play. But all this punitive forced socialization is leaning me toward cancelling my sub before I actually start paying.

The whole thing is very off-putting for sure. Having to set aside a big chunk of time spamming trade chat, and then having to manually mail each thing to a different person (COD? What happens if they don't pay, it comes back and I have to start spamming endlessly all over again?!) is pretty ridiculous in this day and age. What an un-fun waste of time.

And the other choice is to vendor everything I or my few guildies don't need after crafting it while leveling up crafting-- not much encouragement to craft at all then. But how do I even buy things instead? So what else do we do, just try and live on loot drops and farm for our alts?

Zenimax really needs to think about coughing up a separate server for auction house functions if they aren't going to significantly revamp guild trade options.

Then small guilds won't be discriminated against, or come up short in their abilities to play their characters. In other games, each individual has the same chance to obtain gear and weapons. Why not here?

Khandi

The game needs a better system, such as an auction house or trade broker but the RPers don't want to mess with lore and such.

So I am now suggesting something like that be called a 'Pawnbroker' (or something like it) Pawnshops have been around for about 3000 years (in China). So lets think of a name and get it in the game because the guild system is...well...irksome at best.

tawok

They should just do 5 people to unlock bank, 10 to unlock store. Keeping it restricted makes no sense.

lefty1117

Is there an official explanation from devs on why they went this route? It seems a really strange design decision ... don't understand why someone would find it appealing to only be able to buy and sell to a limited part of the community.

driosketch

tawok wrote: »

They should just do 5 people to unlock bank, 10 to unlock store. Keeping it restricted makes no sense.

5 people to unlock is too easy to exploit for bag space. The guild bank has 500 slots. Each of you starts a guild and that's 500 extra storage for per member.

Guild stores only allow you to sell to other members of the same guild, and the trades aren't one to one since there's also a gold sink cost. (Not even going to mention the PvP store since taking and keeping a keep would be difficult for a small guild.)

You could maybe drop the guild store to 30, but for the system that's in place, they're fine with where the line is now.

But giving small guilds these things really isn't the issue I thinking some of you are addressing. What you really seem to want is a global market place.

Greydog

Khandi wrote: »

The game needs a better system, such as an auction house or trade broker but the RPers don't want to mess with lore and such.

So I am now suggesting something like that be called a 'Pawnbroker' (or something like it) Pawnshops have been around for about 3000 years (in China). So lets think of a name and get it in the game because the guild system is...well...irksome at best.

I suggested earlier in this thread that they set aside some of that unused map space to put in some Bazaars where guilds can place a merchant to sell their wares. (Maybe a little island off the coast) Maybe even two or three per alliance if the mega-AH is your hangup. There could be a few listing boards set up for easier searching.

Cyrodiil keeps could be compensated via black market merchants who can also sell to other alliances.

@lefty1117 Not really. Just that they're reluctant to because the server isn't really set up for a global AH. (it might have even been a player who said that)

Stienbjorn

People also seem to forget they can be a member of up to 5 guilds at the same time. So run your family guild and join 4 trading guilds, this allows you to hawk your wares and pick up any needed item, while still hanging out in your family guild.

KariTR

Why should we have to expose the kids in the family to strangers just to meet some random quota set by Zenimax?

Just me that finds this comment (repeated) distasteful and disingenuous?

For the record OP, the game is rated for players over 16, so I would hope your 'children' have been taught how to deal with 'strangers' both in real life and online. It might be more useful to them if they are encouraged to socialise with confidence, as opposed to being kept away from 'the nasty people'.

Learn the difference between choice and discrimination. There is an age limit to the game, but no age limit (or cap!) to joining guilds.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

Play it smart, according to your needs : FFXI showed us the way ...

One social guild, be it small or medium or large, it is for friends and fun and a bit of co-operation.

One or more mega trade guild(s). There will be custom auction guilds that operate as a trade base more than an activity base.

One PvP guild. If you really like your PvP then take it seriously and join a well organised guild that will play smart. You will get more from Cyrodiil that way.


Specialised Guilds : Statics (alts or other factions etc), PvE regular raiders or adventurers or anything that you need to get done. There will be guilds that do nothing but, say, Fighters Guild stuff and people will drift in and out over time.

Configure your chat windows for your own sanity so you only see what you need to.

Kiry

While I find the decision to design the market the way they did confusing, that said...as a player I wouldn't be interested in having a guild store of 10 people. That's a very limited market, might as well just put stuff in the guild bank.
I have two guilds.
One smaller guild that is helpful, talkative, and about 25 people.
Other guild is a trading guild. Currently about 80 people and moderately active guild store.

It works....it's strange to me, but it does work.

Greydog

IMO a guild store of 500 isn't that much more helpful. At max you can have up to 2499 customers ..out of how many hundreds of thousands?

Even that's only if you're lucky enough to get in 5 full guilds.

Why does this discussion always have to be "take it or leave it" and "deal with it" Is there no middle ground?

driosketch

Greydog wrote: »

IMO a guild store of 500 isn't that much more helpful. At max you can have up to 2499 customers ..out of how many hundreds of thousands?

Even that's only if you're lucky enough to get in 5 full guilds.

Why does this discussion always have to be "take it or leave it" and "deal with it" Is there no middle ground?

2495, you would count yourself five times as you are a member of five guilds.

I thought trade guilds was the middle ground, between chat spam and using mail, and having a global market.

Greydog

Still only 500 members in a trade guild. Plus most will likely be selling ..not buying.

Leaving a guild spot open so you can temporarily, join - buy - leave, is just another ridiculous workaround.

BKTHNDR

Agreed.

I play with a few close friends and we've started our own guild. There aren't even 10 of us so we don't even have access to a guild bank, which we all think is totally ridiculous. Smaller guilds should have access to guild banking and stores just like larger ones do.

ShinChuck

p.hurst1b16_ESO wrote: »

Play it smart, according to your needs : FFXI showed us the way ...
<snip>

FFXI, which had an auction house? It seems to be XI refutes your example, because despite having such guild flexibility, they still felt an auction house necessary.

Ojustaboo

I think (could be completely wrong) that part of Zenimax doing it this way and part of family guilds frustration is because small guilds were never the intended way of guilds working.

In Lotro for example numerous friends had their own personal guilds (kins) filled with just their alts, ie a guild of one player, which gave them the ability to own their personal private kin (guild) house with the extra storage etc.

Many people have got used to this but it was never the intended way.

Hence Zenimax has made it so that a guild member counts as one member even if he/she has 8 characters, and to get the extra bank space takes 10 players.

I can see how frustrating this is for a guild of 2 to 9 players, I can also see how easy it would be to abuse the bank space if there wasn't that limit, and even if they reduced the limit to 5, there would be guilds of 2 to 4 people not happy.

While I couldn't care less if they reduced the number of people required to get the store, as others have said, I don't think the people wanting this understand how the store works.

Where I am going to disagree is with the pov that you pay the same sub as me so you should have access to the guild store or bank regardless of how many members your guild has.

It's your choice to be in a small guild and not take advantage of the other 4 guilds you have available, you are bound by the same rules as everyone else.

You might as well say that you pay the same as everyone else but it's not fair that your small guild will never be able to own a keep in pvp and say that pvp should be completely changed to accommodate your solo game style.

Or that you pay the same as others but you can't complete the veteran dungeons with your small guild, but you still should get the same gear.

If you get your way in the above, the game is completely ruined for the majority (yes Lotro I'm looking at you), and you end up with a face roll type game with no challenge and only mainly solo or roleplaying players remaining.

Don't get me wrong, I do sympathise with you, but they haven't drawn a number out of a hat and deliberately decided to annoy players such as yourself, by requiring that many guild members. They have put a lot of thought into this.

Zenimax has a vision that is different from other mmos, I hope they stick to it.

At the same time I hope they realise there are some players who like very small guilds and maybe find a way of tweaking things to help you.

As it stands, I'm not sure how well their vision for trade will work out, I would prefer us to be able to set up little shops while we are offline etc. But I am willing to give it a few weeks before I decide on whether to send them positive or negative (or a bit of both) feedback on it. I don't think I can do that less than 3 days after the game has gone live.

While at first I didn't, I now like the idea of no AH if an alternative proves it is working.

Aria

Aria wrote: »

Was talking to my guild mates about this, and I was going to try and find some like minded smaller guilds that would be willing to have some of their members join our guild and vice versa?

The advantage here is you leave these "store access only members" at recruit rank, since they are there for the soul purpose of opening your store etc they do not need access to your voip and so forth?

Anyway was just a idea for a way around the current restrictions!

Update: Slight change of plans we have decided to forgo the guild store as its out of reach and also guild bank appears to be working fine for us at the moment.

That being said a normal auction house would still be a welcome addition to the game.

Swordmage

The minimum number of members for the guild bank was 10 in beta and I assume that hasn't changed. I assume that this is to avoid having a really small number of players simply form a guild in order to get around the personal bank limits; however, it does seem to penalize the small/family guild organizations.

Sakiri

Greydog wrote: »

Obviously, if the op only has 10 friends and family in his guild he's not looking sell stuff to them. They most likely do freebies for each other. Which is how normal guilds in normal mmo's work.

The idea behind a trade system is to sell to the general public. Not some closed off group of acquaintances.

Sitting around for hours spamming chat is not a trade system. It is an inconvenience.

Selling to guildmates is and always has been verboten in every guild, in every game I have run or joined in 10 years.

I refuse to join a cartel on principle.

My guild doesnt have a bank either. We have 5 members. Not likely to hit 10 soon. We would like a place to place crafting materials for communal use.

I can see them not wanting personal guild banks but I can already do that if I recruit under the understanding guild store is ffa but bank is mine/officer only.

Stupid logic.

cromica81_ESO

I have just accepted that I will have to vendor the things I don't want unless it is an extremely good item, and I will have to craft what I want or just use drops. I have zero interest in joining a large guild.

TheGodless1

I, too, am in a small guild of a few friends. We agreed before launch, that we were going to keep our small guild, knowing full well we didn't have the numbers for a bank or store. So we talked it over and decided that in addition to keeping our small guild, we would join a larger, more competitive guild for trading and crafting along with some pvp content. This has proven to be a wise move on our part. We retain our core group of friends, while still being able to compete on a larger scale without any hassles so far. And the large guild we did join is one that we made sure would suit our playstyles and personalities. With the option to join up to 5 separate guilds, your children can stay in the small guild while the adults can join the larger guilds to sell the wares the kids make...like consignment. It provides you with numerous options without sacrificing that small guild. I hope this helps! I know it's not exactly what you were looking for, but it is another option that works if you do your homework on the larger guild you want to join. And if I may, I suggest East Imperial Trading Company for a trading guild. Great people and from what I have seen so far, they keep the chat fairly clean.

Vodkaphile

It needs to be restrictive or you get every other MMO on the market where you completely negate inventory space altogether by creating a one man guild with all of the perks.

10 players for a guild bank is fine if not too low; it's 500 slots.

50 for a store is also fine, why on earth would you want to sell to any less? If it's a friend and family guild, why do you need a guild store when COD mail is cheaper? A guild store will devastate the profits for a small guild for no reason at all just due to the cut.

I have a 10 man guild for my friends and family and I joined a merchant guild for the guild store. If the chat bugs you, you can disable it for specific guilds. There is no reason to give a guild store to a tiny guild, and no reason to let someone abuse the guild bank for personal storage.

Sakiri

Guild banks are a nonissue as I can already do this by creating a mass recruit cartel and locking all ranks but me out of the bank.

Gunner59

I have never liked guilds and the guild mentality. I prefer to solo and interact one on one, but I also need a place to buy and sell gear...no AH for soloists is a deal breaker for me.