So when can small family/friends-only guilds sell and get guild bank storage?

Thesiren

So when can small family/friends-only guilds sell and get guild bank storage?

Zenimax needs to realize that people specifically choose small friends/family guilds and don't necessarily want 24/7 chat spam from a bunch of other guilds they don't even want to be in, just so they can actually sell items and get guild bank storage.

Some people with their kids in their guilds don't want strangers in their own guilds, either. We shouldn't be punished for it by not being able to sell items or have so much extra guild bank storage.

We all pay the same thing to play this game, we should be treated equally regardless of our guild preferences. And keeping a few big guilds from monopolizing the economy to the exclusion of everyone else would keep prices more balanced, too.

When is Zenimax going to revisit this restrictive decision making? In such a crafting-heavy game, they need to give everyone equal opportunity to stock crafting parts, and sell what they make from those parts.

SoulSeekerUSA

Agreed, since this is an Elder Scrolls game and from what I was told, geared towards solo play why have they made guilds such a huge part of the game. I want to play Elder Scrolls Online not Guild Scrolls Online.

Inversus

I get your point - but if you're just a small family guild, you could just use the trade feature. The guild store is for larger guilds who have trouble managing the sharing of items, but if you're so small I'd have thought it would be manageable via trading.

Having said this, I think 50 people for a guild store may be a bit... much...

Cayce_of_Kata

@Thesiren - The best weapon you have in this case is /feedback .

Let Zenimax know what you want out of the game, and encourage others to do the same.

And yes, 50 people for a guild store is a bit much.

Coggage

Well, players want as big a market as possible for each of their 5 guilds. Why join a small family guild with, say, 10 people in it when you could join one with (as there was in chat tonight) 270+ people in it. That's a lot more people to sell to!

A really small guild wouldn't need a store, as such. They could sell via guild chat and use the ingame mail service

Greydog

Inversus wrote: »

I get your point - but if you're just a small family guild, you could just use the trade feature. The guild store is for larger guilds who have trouble managing the sharing of items, but if you're so small I'd have thought it would be manageable via trading.

Having said this, I think 50 people for a guild store may be a bit... much...

Um ..there is no trade feature for sales. Just the guild stores and spamming.

agree +1

Thesiren

So small guilds have to waste their time repetitively spamming in the chat, where big guilds don't. How fair.

So, is there going to be a subscription discount for those penalized in small guilds who can't have access to all the storage and sales options then?

Yes, that was sarcasm-- of course we get no discount on the sub fee. So why can't Zenimax design an alternative choice for small guilds? Like a smaller amount of guild bank slots (that scale with the size of the guild) and smaller store fronts?

Blackhorne

Greydog wrote: »

Um ..there is no trade feature for sales. Just the guild stores and spamming.

Whisper and Mail with COD.

typeopymp

Bump, This is very much /agreed. Guild storage isn't something that should be limited to an amount of people.

SirLee

With regards to selling stuff via chat, Been there done that, and have the crappy tee shirt.

Sitting around spamming the chat channels trying to sell/buy something is the biggest waste of time nearly the least fun thing to do in MMO's. The only thing I hated worse was the huge death penalty. When MMO's got rid of both they got a lot more fun to play. Fun = Dollars for the developer/publisher.

ChuiDuma

You have access to the bank with only 10 people. I can't think that that's unreasonable. If you only needed 1 person in the guild to access the bank, everyone would start their own guild as free storage space.

driosketch

There's a "house cut" gold sink for using the store. This gold doesn't go anywhere, it disappears from the game. You aren't doing a small guild any favors using the store option unless they can generate the trade volume to make the cost worth while.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the guild bank opens at 10 members doesn't it?

Aria

I agree 50 is bit excessive and of course people in large guilds are going to say 50 is perfectly fine, personally think 20 would be more then reasonable?

Or at the very least they could have offered a alternate way to earn guild store access for smaller guilds?
Was talking to my guild mates about this, and I was going to try and find some like minded smaller guilds that would be willing to have some of their members join our guild and vice versa?

The advantage here is you leave these "store access only members" at recruit rank, since they are there for the soul purpose of opening your store etc they do not need access to your voip and so forth?

Anyway was just a idea for a way around the current restrictions!

ChuiDuma

driosketch wrote: »

There's a "house cut" gold sink for using the store. This gold doesn't go anywhere, it disappears from the game. You aren't doing a small guild any favors using the store option unless they can generate the trade volume to make the cost worth while.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the guild bank opens at 10 members doesn't it?

Yes, you only need 10 people for guild bank (I posted that above).

I think with such a small guild it makes more sense to sell things via mail anyway, but I'm not the one that wants a tiny guild. Perhaps it's because of Cyrodiil? In Cyrodiil you can claim a keep and your guild store will be at the keep, so maybe it's to ensure that only well-stocked guilds with more players will be allowed to do this.

Coggage

Thesiren wrote: »

So, is there going to be a subscription discount for those penalized in small guilds who can't have access to all the storage and sales options then?

No, because you can join FIVE player guilds at once, ALL of which can simply be trading guilds if that's what you want. That's a big pool of players for selling your stuff to... AND, don't forget that's a lot of players to buy stuff from, too. You might be able to sell higher and buy cheaper with so many players to deal with.

You can set your status to "offline" if you don't want people in the guild bothering you. I can't really see your gripe.

Greydog

Blackhorne wrote: »

Whisper and Mail with COD.

A workaround for a trade system. Yeah, that'll keep me paying my sub.

ChuiDuma wrote: »

You have access to the bank with only 10 people. I can't think that that's unreasonable. If you only needed 1 person in the guild to access the bank, everyone would start their own guild as free storage space.

I do believe he was talking about the 50 needed for the store.

Beryl

Thesiren wrote: »

So small guilds have to waste their time repetitively spamming in the chat, where big guilds don't. How fair.

Just to make sure that you understand how the guild store works:
It allows you to sell items to your guild members and that's it. Additionally if your guild owns a keep in Cyrodiil, then other players can also visit your store and buy some stuff from it, but the chances are that a guild with a small number of players will not be able to control a keep for long enough.

As others suggested, a small guild of friends does not really need the store option because people can just send stuff to each other like they do in any other MMO game. But if you want to sell something to larger public you indeed have to either spam the chat (or maybe even the forum) or join a larger guild. As a fan of small guilds, I strongly dislike this myself.

ChuiDuma

Greydog wrote: »

I do believe he was talking about the 50 needed for the store.

OP mentions both store and bank:

Thesiren wrote: »

So when can small family/friends-only guilds sell and get guild bank storage?

Zenimax needs to realize that people specifically choose small friends/family guilds and don't necessarily want 24/7 chat spam from a bunch of other guilds they don't even want to be in, just so they can actually sell items and get guild bank storage.

Some people with their kids in their guilds don't want strangers in their own guilds, either. We shouldn't be punished for it by not being able to sell items or have so much extra guild bank storage.

We all pay the same thing to play this game, we should be treated equally regardless of our guild preferences. And keeping a few big guilds from monopolizing the economy to the exclusion of everyone else would keep prices more balanced, too.

When is Zenimax going to revisit this restrictive decision making? In such a crafting-heavy game, they need to give everyone equal opportunity to stock crafting parts, and sell what they make from those parts.

Greydog

Obviously, if the op only has 10 friends and family in his guild he's not looking sell stuff to them. They most likely do freebies for each other. Which is how normal guilds in normal mmo's work.

The idea behind a trade system is to sell to the general public. Not some closed off group of acquaintances.

Sitting around for hours spamming chat is not a trade system. It is an inconvenience.

knightblaster

My guess is that it is being done this way due to the megaserver design. The market, if it were for everyone, or even just for one alliance, would be much larger than the market in a "sharded" MMO. Even in EVE Online, which also functions as one server cluster, the market is split up and local to each system. If you have a very large single market (again, even on the alliance level), I'm guessing that may be too large to be stable from the design side.

Coggage

I think the trade system could be interesting. I envisage a lot of small trading guilds disbanding and other guilds getting bigger as their reputation spreads.

Picture the Hudson Bay Company and the East India Company, for example, which were, when you think about it, comparable to ESO trading guilds. It's how trading was done in real life back then, which lends the ESO system an air of realism. I think some people just want one big, impersonal ingame hypermarket.

Thesiren

Greydog wrote: »

Obviously, if the op only has 10 friends and family in his guild he's not looking sell stuff to them. They most likely do freebies for each other. Which is how normal guilds in normal mmo's work.

The idea behind a trade system is to sell to the general public. Not some closed off group of acquaintances.

Sitting around for hours spamming chat is not a trade system. It is an inconvenience.

Exactly. And to buy from other people too, actually. Big guilds have the chance. Little guilds don't. And in fact my guild only has five people in it, and may at absolute max have seven. Why should we have to expose the kids in the family to strangers just to meet some random quota set by Zenimax?

Or alternatively, why should I have to submit my login info to tons of strangers in some guild I don't even want to be in, and myself to walls of 24/7 green guild chat or jerry-rig ways around that (logging in as offline), when all I really want is to run my family guild and play the game.

This whole thing, from @login info to strange guild limits, was extremely poorly thought out. This is something a F2P Korean grinder would pull, to force people into a cash shop to buy things to get around it all. When you're charging the high box prices and full monthly sub prices that Zenimax is for ESO, you should just get the entire game, same options as everyone else, with no crazy hoops to jump through, privacy to be invaded, etc.

ShinChuck

Agreed with OP. 10/50 are way too much. I prefer more flexible guild options.

ChuiDuma wrote: »

You have access to the bank with only 10 people. I can't think that that's unreasonable. If you only needed 1 person in the guild to access the bank, everyone would start their own guild as free storage space.

Honestly? I don't see a problem with that. I'm all for allowing players more inventory space to store their digital goods.

driosketch

knightblaster wrote: »

My guess is that it is being done this way due to the megaserver design. The market, if it were for everyone, or even just for one alliance, would be much larger than the market in a "sharded" MMO. Even in EVE Online, which also functions as one server cluster, the market is split up and local to each system. If you have a very large single market (again, even on the alliance level), I'm guessing that may be too large to be stable from the design side.

I think it's pretty much this. If you have a global AH and its economy gets screwed up, due to gold sellers and what not, everyone's effected. If however, you have individual trade guilds, and one's economy gets screwed up, members can abandon it. Or savvy players can flip items from one market to the next. (Keeping in mind the gold sink.) It'll be interesting to see what game market develops around this design.

Waylon

I agree, I have a family and we like to play together. So I'm all for reducing it down dramatically. we would like to have access to it at say four or five members, there are four member parties right.

Thesiren

knightblaster wrote: »

My guess is that it is being done this way due to the megaserver design. The market, if it were for everyone, or even just for one alliance, would be much larger than the market in a "sharded" MMO. Even in EVE Online, which also functions as one server cluster, the market is split up and local to each system. If you have a very large single market (again, even on the alliance level), I'm guessing that may be too large to be stable from the design side.

I played Eve for four years, and I understand your point. However, many if not most accounts there pay for their monthly subscriptions with in-game money. You've been able to do that for years. So I can forgive the "one server that can't cut it for the full-MMO-options" more than I can here. And even in Eve, which is what, twelve years old now, there are NO restrictions on who can sell publicly and who can't, and their market hubs (Jita, Rens, Amarr, etc.) cover an entire races' lands (and other races can sell there, too) and they are much bigger than guild markets here. It would be like Daggerfall Covenant having its own auction house, and each of the other two factions having their own auction houses. So what's Zenimax's excuse?

Guild Wars and Guild Wars two are mirrored with one server each in reality. I forgive them because there is no monthly fee. I definitely came into ESO guarded because they're charging $15 a month, a high box fee, and yet are trying to give the "well, we only have one server and it can't handle things a full-fledged MMO can" excuse. I was kind of afraid of that. And it's no excuse.

knightblaster

Thesiren wrote: »

I played Eve for four years, and I understand your point. However, many if not most accounts there pay for their monthly subscriptions with in-game money. You've been able to do that for years. So I can forgive the "one server that can't cut it for the full-MMO-options" more than I can here.

Guild Wars and Guild Wars two are mirrored with one server each in reality. I forgive them because there is no monthly fee. I definitely came into ESO guarded because they're charging $15 a month, a high box fee, and yet are trying to give the "well, we only have one server and it can't handle things a full-fledged MMO can" excuse. I was kind of afraid of that. And it's no excuse.

It's a fair critique, I think. One of the design challenges when you have a one-server approach is what to do with stuff like the market system so that it doesn't get out of whack. I think, though, that it seems odd for players like you, who don't want to be in a bigger trade guild, to be excluded from an accessible market with other players (spamming in zone chat not being an accessible market) more or less completely.

Thesiren

knightblaster wrote: »

It's a fair critique, I think. One of the design challenges when you have a one-server approach is what to do with stuff like the market system so that it doesn't get out of whack. I think, though, that it seems odd for players like you, who don't want to be in a bigger trade guild, to be excluded from an accessible market with other players (spamming in zone chat not being an accessible market) more or less completely.

Do you know where you have to spam the /auction channel to sell things instead of using the broker (auction house)? It's as a Free Player in Everquest 2. Subscription acounts can sell from the broker. And even at that, free players can buy anything they want from the broker, they just can't sell there without paying Sony.

Zenimax really needs to deal with this issue. I don't know if it should be as a completely separate server (Eve Online's Jita system has its own sub-server because its market is always so big), or a sharded market-- each faction having its own market, if that would help-- but especially with an open PvP area and end-game raid content and such, every player needs equal chance to buy and sell, and even have a guild bank.

PS/ I know this is a sub-topic and really deserves its own post, but Zenimax should also get rid of the account name showing up in-game as well. I understand that they are doing this because all of someone's characters are automatically signed up for any guild they join, but they should take a page from City of Heroes' book.

City of Heroes launched in early 2004, before WoW or EQ2, and it had Global Handles which showed up no matter which of your characters you were playing. You could sign up for someone's friend list or whatever using your Global Handle, which followed you no matter which of your characters you were on with. By default this was the name of your most frequently played character, but you could change it yourself if you wanted to. But never was it your account login credentials! I am still stunned by the....ignorance of that decision.

Greydog

What exacerbates the issue is that all your alts are treated as a single entity where guild membership is concerned. Allowing them to be separate would increase your chances of being able to buy/sell under this system.

I first suggested the following cut and paste in the other thread that was closed. I believe it is a good compromise and still in keeping with the TES feel that ZOS is apparently looking for.

"How about they use some of that unused map space to place regional or alliance "Bazaars" where guilds can place a merchant to hawk the guilds wares.

Have the players transit in and search listings for their needs then go to the merchant to seal the deal "

This Bazaar could be placed in the open world. (they have plenty of map space left) ..or instanced. It matters not to me.

illogicbh

All you have to do is join a trading guild and turn that chat off....

tarvokb14a_ESO

I think some people in this thread don't understand how guild stores actually work. THey're saying large guild people can sell in guild stores, while small guild people have to spam to chat channels to sell their stuff. This simply is not true.

Large guild stores are not selling to the public. They are selling to other members of their same guild. That's it. Markets are entirely internal. Cyrodil guild stores are another matter entirely.

That said, while I agree with Bethsoft's decision, I think they should have just let the small guilds have guild stores, because people are stupid and complain about things they don't understand, and it wouldn't hurt anything to allow small guilds to have guild stores.