What is the incentive to keep playing when your playstyle gets removed entirely?

TechMaybeHic

Marcus684 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

Necromancer

Grave Lord

Boneyard
Graverobber (morph): Reduced the damage of this synergy by approximately 34% to ensure it is of similar power to other synergies of its ilk, such as Conduit or Combustion.

Skeletal Mage
Skeletal Archer (morph): Fixed an issue where the damage boost from this morph would fail to apply if the damage was blocked.

Bone Tyrant
Death Gleaning: This passive now restores 333/666 Magicka and Stamina when a nearby enemy dies, up from 100/200.

All I'm seeing in the PC patch notes is the above. If this is what has killed off the Necromancer, then it's an easy kill, if something else is in the mix, then I have no idea.

It's about a certain group gear and skill combination that was being used to kill a large number of players at once ("bombing") in PvP.

I don't play necro, but honestly, way too many people are not blocking and/or rolling out of the obvious telegraph involved here. I don't really condone cheese builds as a crutch, but a lot of this is actually a learn to play issue. However, the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease.

If pvp bombing is the crux of the OP’s complaint, and their mention of burst damage leads me to believe that it is, then ignoring telegraphs was not the issue, and placing the blame on the victims of the obviously-overtuned necrobombers is disingenuous at best. Cyrodiil had gotten so bad that whenever more than 3 players would flip a flag or repair a door, most of them would just spread out and stand there waiting for the inevitable bomber, because that was the only counterplay unless the bomber wasn’t very skilled or got unlucky. While I’m sure it was hilarious and profitable for the bomber, it just became frustrating for everyone on the other end of it. If the latest patch results in the death of the necrobomb, I say good riddance.

As if that was a Necro problem. Was NB before as still is; and now DK. They've done nothing about blowing up masses. Just removed one class from doing it, and frankly the weaker of the 3 outside of that.

Pinja

Awe man, looks like op probably only started to pvp after 2019. As a lot of people have stated they've been wrecking us all for years my guy. My sorc still comes to me about nightmare's from where Wrobel touched him.

Among other nerfs:

• Proxy Nerf
• Destro ult nerf
• Empower nerf
• Deep breath nerf
• Permafrost nerf
• Destructive mage (Scaling) nerf
• (plus a secret one)

All bomb nerf's that pretty much were eliminated from Cyrodiil. Hundreds of hours of grinding before reconstructable set collections were even a thing.
Not to mention that once upon a time necros could hold block and kill a zerg in three clicks.

Compared to old NB suicide bombs they had a good run. Tank a Zerg and blow it up, running around for four years?

The solution is to turn him into a crafter, log on to do writs, and occasonally check your skills for any good changes, and or play arcanist.

phaneub17_ESO

Beckoning Armor is now AOE Soft Taunt?

DreamyLu

sharquez wrote: »

It hardly feels real but the Necro nerfs went through. Millions of gold spent obtaining and perfecting the gear for my builds. Hundreds of transmute stones gone. 1 patch and my gear is now garbage. My characters unable to fulfill their roles. No recourse. No compensation. Just go back and grind out something else.

It's like finishing a beautiful painting and then watching someone walk by and pour gasoline on it and light it on fire and say: nice job start over. There have been aggressive nerfs in the past but to outright delete a playstyle that WAS PUSHED BY THE GAMES CREATORS as one of the GO TO STYLES is outrageous.

Where do I go now? What do I do with those characters? Why should I keep playing? Why would I buy a new class if it is going to be gutted an indeterminant amount of time after anyway?
Help me understand why I should invest any more time and money in a game when at any moment the characters I worked so hard to build play and master can just be functionally destroyed.

I'm a necro player and I'm unheard, scorned, and pissed off, I'm out millions of gold and hundreds of transmute stones. Now I guess I've got to go keep playing right? Pitch that to your sales and balance team. Apparently people gobble it right up.

I'm a bit surprised by your post. Based on my experience, its the essence of a MMORPG to have builds & equipment (and many other things) evolving over time, pushing players to always see new contents, re-think their way to play, re-think their skills rotation, re-build their equipment, and so on... That's part of the changes that allow for new challenges over time and that generally keep the game alive. I don't know a MMORPG that doesn't work this way?

I can understand that it's a frustration in case you love a build and can't keep playing it. It happened to me more than once. But that's part of the game. On the other hand, there will also be cases where you will like the changes and prefer new vs. old.

Jaraal

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

Necromancer

Grave Lord

Boneyard
Graverobber (morph): Reduced the damage of this synergy by approximately 34% to ensure it is of similar power to other synergies of its ilk, such as Conduit or Combustion.

Skeletal Mage
Skeletal Archer (morph): Fixed an issue where the damage boost from this morph would fail to apply if the damage was blocked.

Bone Tyrant
Death Gleaning: This passive now restores 333/666 Magicka and Stamina when a nearby enemy dies, up from 100/200.

All I'm seeing in the PC patch notes is the above. If this is what has killed off the Necromancer, then it's an easy kill, if something else is in the mix, then I have no idea.

It's about a certain group gear and skill combination that was being used to kill a large number of players at once ("bombing") in PvP.

I don't play necro, but honestly, way too many people are not blocking and/or rolling out of the obvious telegraph involved here. I don't really condone cheese builds as a crutch, but a lot of this is actually a learn to play issue. However, the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease.

If pvp bombing is the crux of the OP’s complaint, and their mention of burst damage leads me to believe that it is, then ignoring telegraphs was not the issue, and placing the blame on the victims of the obviously-overtuned necrobombers is disingenuous at best. Cyrodiil had gotten so bad that whenever more than 3 players would flip a flag or repair a door, most of them would just spread out and stand there waiting for the inevitable bomber, because that was the only counterplay unless the bomber wasn’t very skilled or got unlucky. While I’m sure it was hilarious and profitable for the bomber, it just became frustrating for everyone on the other end of it. If the latest patch results in the death of the necrobomb, I say good riddance.

As if that was a Necro problem. Was NB before as still is; and now DK. They've done nothing about blowing up masses. Just removed one class from doing it, and frankly the weaker of the 3 outside of that.

Man I can't wait to see the new Arcanist bomber! And you can bet it won't be nerfed until sales of Necrom start to decline.

gariondavey

merpins wrote: »

Happened to my NB in 2016. Happened to my Sorc in 2018. Happened to my Sorc again in U34, and then my longest running main since the game came out, my main since 2014, my Templar, in U35.

Worst part. Templar won't be fixed. Even if they buff the class or give it some other kit with skill utility changes, the likelihood of ZoS reverting Jabs to its old animation is close to non-existent. They can nerf a class into obscurity, make sets that were good bad, they can make a playstyle not good for a while, and it will eventually bounce back. Always does. But changing the animation on a skill can make or break a class. And unfortunately, the new Jabs animation is bad and won't ever not be bad.

Here to second this

ProudMary

U35. Templar has been dead ever since. And so has my will to give ZOS money for anything as a result. ZOS didn't just nerf the class into oblivious, they added insult to injury with a wonky, spastic animation that uses a nighthollow stave instead of a spear of light like all the other templar animations use.

Turtle_Bot

merpins wrote: »

Happened to my NB in 2016. Happened to my Sorc in 2018. Happened to my Sorc again in U34, and then my longest running main since the game came out, my main since 2014, my Templar, in U35.

Worst part. Templar won't be fixed. Even if they buff the class or give it some other kit with skill utility changes, the likelihood of ZoS reverting Jabs to its old animation is close to non-existent. They can nerf a class into obscurity, make sets that were good bad, they can make a playstyle not good for a while, and it will eventually bounce back. Always does. But changing the animation on a skill can make or break a class. And unfortunately, the new Jabs animation is bad and won't ever not be bad.

Second (or third) this.

My sorc over the years has gone from a cool lightning wielding mage that also had crystal magic, into a zookeeper that throws crystals at enemies, to now just being a zookeeper that holds down LMB and barely uses any skills at all.

Turtle_Bot

Quethrosar wrote: »

ALL I see now is yet another pvp junk messing with the bigger game. Everything nerfed I read is because of pvp. So get rid of pvp or make fine tune pvp so it's nerfs do not effect the pve

PvP is a bigger part of the game than people care to admit, that is being held back by the atrocious state that performance has been allowed to degrade into (just look at what happened when performance was fixed on PC NA a couple of patches ago).

When it comes to balance, many people have been asking for ZOS to use battle spirit to balance PVP and PVE separately, especially after they proved it can be done with sets like vicious death, rallying cry, etc. Not sure why they don't lean more into this, it would make a lot more people much happier than their current methods of implementing changes do.

Somber97866

The only thing saving them is no ones put a better game like this out there. Otherwise I think with the mismanagement this thing be toast

Narvuntien

To learn a new playstyle.

I am a gankblade so I have been nerfed I don't know a million times now, so I just go back to the drawing board and once again work out how to maximise my single target one hit damage.

sharquez

Alot of assumptions being made about me so ill just clear them up:

Played the game since, release, matter of fact played it at PAX east before release before they had even implemented 1st person.

Really got hardcore into PVP during the release of IC, its my favorite content. I was there for dynamic ult, for buff severs for viper tremor scale and for blazing shields.

Never that I remember has a class and playstyle been so utterly removed from this game with such prejudice, and nothing been done to even acknowledge the lost time and effort on the part of the players.

I have at least 3 of each class. its not like i lack options for playing other specs I just need to express my frustration and disappointment that this worst option was the one that was taken (again) and it didn't even balance anything. Its just making the spreadsheet equal out or whatever absurd metric is being used to mess with the game in the most sterile and soul crushing way.

This topic is more a question I'm asking as a way of provide feedback that I and many others are tired of being trampled on in the name of not even balance and nothing is being done to salvage the good will of the players, we are disposable and are essentially being counted on to have our will broken once we are out of money to milk out.

WeylandLabs

Great thread !

As much as I agree with this, players have to understand that a nerf to a playstyle only means one thing now.

New Arc class will consume those abilities and be attractive enough to purchase, I was an old school dot stam sorc from 2015 to 2018 and was finally gutted in 2019.

How you ask ?

Well they nerfed a playstyle into the ground and equipped or buffed other classes with the same type of abilities. Not a lot of classes from 2015-2018 was able to heal stack massively and to damage at the same time especially with certain builds.

Ragnarok0130

As a Templar main since 2014 I feel your frustration but you will be able to tweak your build to recover some effectiveness. You can also roll an alt to play until Cro is in a better place since the two constants in ESO are a predatory crown store and change.

ADarklore

All I can say is... I'm glad I don't PVP... so never had anything tied to this type of playstyle, and never heard of it actually. Usually they nerf a skill because it overperforms in PVP... but subsequently nerfs PVE players. Not sure this change will impact PVE players at all.

WiseSky

OP

your signature is :

At least 3 of each class. PVPing Since IC.

Whenever it comes to times like this I have a song I listen to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voBxGhlfEyc

Amottica

sharquez wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

What do I do with those characters?

Create new builds as many serious players do every year, and sometimes multiple times a year.

sharquez wrote: »

Why should I keep playing?

It is a personal choice. If you are really into ESO then adjust. Though it may be time for a break given the animosity I am gleaming from the comments made. I could be wrong about that but again, it is a personal choice as to what each of us do.

It's easy to give up and leave. it would be way easier. But I'd rather have a conversation so lets take that option of the table for now, and on to the next point.

I participated in a conversation and my first comment was that many will create new builds. The reality is anyone who is interested in continuing playing and wants to remain competitive or viable will create or update the builds for their characters as it is extremely unlikely Zenimax will heavily revert or change their plans.

So again, there is a choice and I presented both options in my previous post.

Suddwrath

Ever since the templar blazing shield and nightblade sap tank builds were nerfed into the ground I have learned to never grow too attached to a build/theme. ZOS simply reworks or nerfs skills and sets too frequently, so if your enjoyment in the game is tied to a specific build or gameplay style there's a high likelihood you are setting yourself up for disappointment at some point in the future.

Heromofo

sharquez wrote: »

Alot of assumptions being made about me so ill just clear them up:

Played the game since, release, matter of fact played it at PAX east before release before they had even implemented 1st person.

Really got hardcore into PVP during the release of IC, its my favorite content. I was there for dynamic ult, for buff severs for viper tremor scale and for blazing shields.

Never that I remember has a class and playstyle been so utterly removed from this game with such prejudice, and nothing been done to even acknowledge the lost time and effort on the part of the players.

I have at least 3 of each class. its not like i lack options for playing other specs I just need to express my frustration and disappointment that this worst option was the one that was taken (again) and it didn't even balance anything. Its just making the spreadsheet equal out or whatever absurd metric is being used to mess with the game in the most sterile and soul crushing way.

This topic is more a question I'm asking as a way of provide feedback that I and many others are tired of being trampled on in the name of not even balance and nothing is being done to salvage the good will of the players, we are disposable and are essentially being counted on to have our will broken once we are out of money to milk out.

All i see is another player tired of the constant and heavy handed changes that destroy builds every other patch. Like i said on the front page i legit feel bad for ya and i hope they really do read this thread and understand you're point of view.

binho

People keep saying to adapt or try another build, but unfortunately there's no build that will make mag necro even slightly viable in PVP.
Necro is the worst class for PVP at the moment and that's a fact.

I_killed_Vivec

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

This is one reason I prefer to avoid "builds" and just try to focus on playing the game. I do have a couple of Necro characters-- one per server-- but they're just alts and I've never tried to develop them yet. Same goes for my DK and Templar alts-- not that I have zero interest in those classes (I wouldn't have created characters with them if I had zero interest), but merely because I spend almost all of my time playing on my main characters (one per server).

On PC NA my main is a Sorc who's the second character I ever created-- after messing around with and messing up on my first character, whose purpose was really just to help me get a feel for the game and how things worked (and who, coincidentally, is also a Sorc)-- and I stick with him mainly because of all the time I've invested into him for things like crafting.

On PC EU my main is a NB who's the first character I created on that server, and likewise I stick with him mainly because of all the time I've invested into him.

In both cases, I tend to not play their classes very much, aside from using combat pets on my Sorc if I need them, because I tend to rely on my weapon skills instead. Neither one has a "build" per se; rather, I've tried to develop them into well-rounded characters in the sense of being tanky enough to (hopefully) survive in solo PvE, just deepsy enough to kill stuff but without melting through everything like a hot knife through soft butter, etc.-- not built specifically for PvE or PvP but able to dabble in both, and not really built specifically for any given group roles either but somewhere between a DD and a tank. It took me at least a year to get either one to a place where I could handle some of the more difficult content, and some past updates did hit them pretty hard, but I just keep trying my best to adapt to whatever changes get made.

"Don't play them as unique classes, just use weapon skills and do just barely enough damage to scrape by"

This is the most depressing comment on this thread. Like, I'm glad that works for you, but holy sheet is that a bleak way to play the game.

"Barely enough to scrape by" is an exaggeration, but that has been the (PvE) StamDK way for ages. Maybe hybrid changes will correct this, but don't hold your breath.

A lot of classes have lost their "identity" ... particularly when new classes have been introduced.

kargen27

merpins wrote: »

Happened to my NB in 2016. Happened to my Sorc in 2018. Happened to my Sorc again in U34, and then my longest running main since the game came out, my main since 2014, my Templar, in U35.

Worst part. Templar won't be fixed. Even if they buff the class or give it some other kit with skill utility changes, the likelihood of ZoS reverting Jabs to its old animation is close to non-existent. They can nerf a class into obscurity, make sets that were good bad, they can make a playstyle not good for a while, and it will eventually bounce back. Always does. But changing the animation on a skill can make or break a class. And unfortunately, the new Jabs animation is bad and won't ever not be bad.

The animation is an improvement. It better fits the timing of the skill and is easier to see when stacked in a group. Sure it looked awkward for a bit but after killing a few world bosses you get used to it and hardly notice it at all. Templars could use a bit of help but a change in animation isn't that help.

James-Wayne

Welcome to ESO!

If they made mats cheaper and easier to obtain rebuilding wouldnt be so bad but its been like this for years and I dont see it changing anytime soon.

Braggar

sharquez wrote: »

It hardly feels real but the Necro nerfs went through. Millions of gold spent obtaining and perfecting the gear for my builds. Hundreds of transmute stones gone. 1 patch and my gear is now garbage. My characters unable to fulfill their roles. No recourse. No compensation. Just go back and grind out something else.

It's like finishing a beautiful painting and then watching someone walk by and pour gasoline on it and light it on fire and say: nice job start over. There have been aggressive nerfs in the past but to outright delete a playstyle that WAS PUSHED BY THE GAMES CREATORS as one of the GO TO STYLES is outrageous.

Where do I go now? What do I do with those characters? Why should I keep playing? Why would I buy a new class if it is going to be gutted an indeterminant amount of time after anyway?
Help me understand why I should invest any more time and money in a game when at any moment the characters I worked so hard to build play and master can just be functionally destroyed.

I'm a necro player and I'm unheard, scorned, and pissed off, I'm out millions of gold and hundreds of transmute stones. Now I guess I've got to go keep playing right? Pitch that to your sales and balance team. Apparently people gobble it right up.

I feel your pain! If I hear NERF I could scream. Tried to get some decent gear long ago. Checked the net for infos, watched videos, asked buddies, long story short did a lot of research for several armor sets. But many ideas turned out ot be dead ends. ZOS nerf armor, mess up Classes. Each time a person suggested a new armor set, I thought: That one will be just another nerf case soon or later. After a while I thought forget it!!!! Why should I waste my time on this?? I keep my crappy armor. I keep my Class settings. I don´t care, if they are good or bad. Doesn´t matter what anyone suggest. I don´t care anymore!! ZOS try to keep the characters weak. If we like it or not. That´s a fact. My advice keep your money. Or you just get a ulcer one day. A game should make us happy not angry.

Ilumia

I still wish pvp and pve balancing would be seperated, because I do see the need to rework in pvp sometimes, but not in the same way in pve.
I stopped renewing my builds, and almost stopped playing because the work on a build was wrecked regularly, and keeping up took too much time instead of enjoying playing with the builds.

MorganaBlue

sharquez wrote: »

It hardly feels real but the Necro nerfs went through. Millions of gold spent obtaining and perfecting the gear for my builds. Hundreds of transmute stones gone. 1 patch and my gear is now garbage. My characters unable to fulfill their roles. No recourse. No compensation. Just go back and grind out something else.

It's like finishing a beautiful painting and then watching someone walk by and pour gasoline on it and light it on fire and say: nice job start over. There have been aggressive nerfs in the past but to outright delete a playstyle that WAS PUSHED BY THE GAMES CREATORS as one of the GO TO STYLES is outrageous.

Where do I go now? What do I do with those characters? Why should I keep playing? Why would I buy a new class if it is going to be gutted an indeterminant amount of time after anyway?
Help me understand why I should invest any more time and money in a game when at any moment the characters I worked so hard to build play and master can just be functionally destroyed.

I'm a necro player and I'm unheard, scorned, and pissed off, I'm out millions of gold and hundreds of transmute stones. Now I guess I've got to go keep playing right? Pitch that to your sales and balance team. Apparently people gobble it right up.

My three templars salute your necros. My own personal choice/answer to your question is "you stop playing". Not just because they killed my playstyle of choice, but because of everything, the updates, the lack of build diversity, the watering down and "casualization" of the game, etc. It's not a fun game anymore to me. You'll have to do your own math and figure out if the game still holds enough for you to justify the compromises you have to make to be able to continue playing it.

SaffronCitrusflower

I didn't stop playing when U35 dropped. I just stopped paying. There's just too many changes too fast when there should be class balancing instead.

merpins

kargen27 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Happened to my NB in 2016. Happened to my Sorc in 2018. Happened to my Sorc again in U34, and then my longest running main since the game came out, my main since 2014, my Templar, in U35.

Worst part. Templar won't be fixed. Even if they buff the class or give it some other kit with skill utility changes, the likelihood of ZoS reverting Jabs to its old animation is close to non-existent. They can nerf a class into obscurity, make sets that were good bad, they can make a playstyle not good for a while, and it will eventually bounce back. Always does. But changing the animation on a skill can make or break a class. And unfortunately, the new Jabs animation is bad and won't ever not be bad.

The animation is an improvement. It better fits the timing of the skill and is easier to see when stacked in a group. Sure it looked awkward for a bit but after killing a few world bosses you get used to it and hardly notice it at all. Templars could use a bit of help but a change in animation isn't that help.

The animation is not an improvement. I'm a professional animator, and can tell you that it ignores the principles of animation. It looks awkward because it's not animated correctly, and you can get used to bad animation, but that doesn't change the fact that it is bad animation. The original animation was done well, too, so it's just a terrible change.

Yes, the timing of the skill, as in its cast time in ESO terms, is fine. Its timing in animation terms is terrible. They could fix the animation with, LITERALLY, less than 2 hours of work by a single animator on staff. It's not a difficult fix, I could fix it in 30 minutes if I was given the tools and the files used by ZoS for animation in ESO. The issue lies with timing, and if it was timed properly, it would actually look fine. I don't like that they reuse that vampire spear motif, but if the animation was good, I'd be able to overlook it. But the animation isn't good.

Enundr

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You either move on to a different game or create a build, not much else there is to be done. It's unfortunate, but also a part of MMOs or online service game is sometimes developers decide some playstyle is unhealthy for the game and nerf or delete it. I don't think you'll find immunity to that outside of single player games. It's the nature of the genre, sadly.

yes but zenimax took it to extremes , even more so with U35 where it made open world a hassle even more so than launch version of the game played as. wow , ff14 , gw2 , all do a better job without over kill reactions (gw1 was better for pvp balancing if im honest than 2 as they had a VERY clear seperation of pve and pvp versions of skills) , while yes balancing will always keep the flow of how classes and weapons perform in a state of change easily , as i said they go overboard with it.

kargen27

merpins wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Happened to my NB in 2016. Happened to my Sorc in 2018. Happened to my Sorc again in U34, and then my longest running main since the game came out, my main since 2014, my Templar, in U35.

Worst part. Templar won't be fixed. Even if they buff the class or give it some other kit with skill utility changes, the likelihood of ZoS reverting Jabs to its old animation is close to non-existent. They can nerf a class into obscurity, make sets that were good bad, they can make a playstyle not good for a while, and it will eventually bounce back. Always does. But changing the animation on a skill can make or break a class. And unfortunately, the new Jabs animation is bad and won't ever not be bad.

The animation is an improvement. It better fits the timing of the skill and is easier to see when stacked in a group. Sure it looked awkward for a bit but after killing a few world bosses you get used to it and hardly notice it at all. Templars could use a bit of help but a change in animation isn't that help.

The animation is not an improvement. I'm a professional animator, and can tell you that it ignores the principles of animation. It looks awkward because it's not animated correctly, and you can get used to bad animation, but that doesn't change the fact that it is bad animation. The original animation was done well, too, so it's just a terrible change.

Yes, the timing of the skill, as in its cast time in ESO terms, is fine. Its timing in animation terms is terrible. They could fix the animation with, LITERALLY, less than 2 hours of work by a single animator on staff. It's not a difficult fix, I could fix it in 30 minutes if I was given the tools and the files used by ZoS for animation in ESO. The issue lies with timing, and if it was timed properly, it would actually look fine. I don't like that they reuse that vampire spear motif, but if the animation was good, I'd be able to overlook it. But the animation isn't good.

The new animation is much easier to see when stacked as a group. That alone makes it superior to the old animation. The old animation wouldn't fit the change to the skill firing so if timing is your issue the old animation would be much much worse.