Please STOP pushing threads into "Players helping Players" section

evan302

When I first considered playing ESO, the fact that the forums were actively moderated impressed me. There is very little rudeness, I haven't seen anyone trolling and some people actually get official responses to their posts. After my last game, all of that was a breath of fresh air.

However, having been here a few months. I notice more and more threads being moved out of General (never the other way) and it's becoming a major frustration.

I assume the mods are trying to push people towards the other boards but it's not working and people are seeing threads moved and dying instantly which is hardly an incentive to post elsewhere.
Even worse, some of those moved threads were asking for an official response to something, and while moving them to a corner to die isn't as bad as deleting them, I'm sure that wasn't the 'official response' those posters were hoping for.

Might I respectfully suggest the mods look at how people are using the forum and adjust it to that, rather than trying to change the way forum users engage.

I'm not suggesting deleting all the categories bar General, but I do feel there are way too many boards.
Players Helping Players doesn't work at present and clearly moving threads out of General into that board hasn't increased traffic.
I'd suggest making that a New Players and General Questions board, because new players don't have an area dedicated to them on the forum at present though I've noticed there are quite a few of us in-game. We are the ones most likely to have questions but we're also the people most likely to be looking up information, so we probably have a lot of answers too.
It would also be useful for new players to have somewhere they could meet others who are starting out and maybe find buddies to run dungeons with etc.

RodneyRegis

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
  This has changed in the past year or two. Formerly I used to visit General, then Combat & Builds, then Public Test Server. I used to post a fair bit as well.
  
  Now, I tend to look at Dev Tracker (to see if there are any new posts) then scan page one of "Recent." I read threads of interest but rarely post.
  
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
  I'm not sure because I now look only at "Recent" and rarely know where a given thread originated.
  
• Do you think the forums have too many categories?
  Probably.
  
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)
  Yes to the first three, never to the last two.

And for what it's worth: In addition to seeing threads moved to the graveyard to die, I've noticed, some threads tend to sink even though people are responding to them. I've also seen people ejected from the forums, because they posted polite but critical opinions. I've largely given up posting due to this type of moderation.

Indeed. The all too common abuse of the word "abuse" and similar methods of suppressing discussions that mods don't want to take place which permeates most of society. Sometimes I wonder if they are even aware that they are doing it.

Rasande_Robin

100% General, 50/50 when PTS is going.

MreeBiPolar

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So the posts being moved is so that they are in the sub-section that matches the contents of the thread. This is based on the current structure of the forum.

Not true. If you take a closer look at the threads being pushed there, 90% of them had NOTHING to do with "players helping players". They have been reporting problems, asking for feedback from ZoS, etc, but definitely NOT fitting the PHP category, and definitely NOT "Asking questions about ESO for your fellow players to answer".

An example. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/630866/passion-dancer-blossom-summoning-animation -- can you tell me what in the nine hells did that have to do with PHP?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The intent is not to harm players or hinder conversation.

It really really really looks, feels, quacks and walks like it is though.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

However with that being said, we've noticed frustration with some of the moving of conversations and have started looking at how we can better address this problem. That way, those posting get the help they need and we have conversations happening in the right places. We do intend on asking a wider audience here on the forum how they use the forum currently and how that experience can be made better from user navigation standpoint.

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have too many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

1 - General, General, General, General, Patch Notes, General, General, General, Maintenance announcements, General, Patch Notes, General, General, and 10x more General.
2 - See Fig. 1
3 - Definitely. I doubt even 1% of people on the forum scrolls down on the category screen far enough to notice the redundancy, but at least two of the major categories entirely fall under the "PHP" (but don't get entirely pushed there . At the very least, even if there are not too many categories, the layout needs a complete rehaul.
4 - No, and until you mentioned them, I didn't even see them. The UI auto-hides them on the slightest scroll down, which you do essentially the first thing once you get into any thread. I do use the Notifications/Discussion/Comments tabs from profile to find threads I was checking/writing in though, and those really could also use a makeover to make them easier to access.

HumbleThaumaturge

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

S
But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have too many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

I admit: I did not know about the many, many, many forums until I read this post. I am embarrassed to admit . . . that I only ever noticed the categories under the "General" heading, and have only ever used: General (91%); PTS (7%); Bugs(<1%); and Patches(<1%). I only learned about Player Helping Player because most of my Questions get shifted there. But now that I have scrolled down the page, I am amazed that there are so many forums. Yeah, I think there are too many categories; but now that I know about them, I will get more beneficial use out of the forums.

And I admit: I never before noticed the tabs at the Top.

In short, ZOS_Kevin, thanks for making your post. Very helpful.

MreeBiPolar

@ZOS_Kevin
In particular, @ZOS_Hadeostry keeps moving lots of threads to other forums, which in half the cases has nothing to do with the subforum they get moved to, and effectively kills them.

Elsonso

I will agree that "players helping players" is an entirely redundant category, as this is what happens in multiple categories.

Zodiarkslayer

Elsonso wrote: »

I will agree that "players helping players" is an entirely redundant category, as this is what happens in multiple categories.

This is how i started this thread over 2 months ago.
Since then we had a lot of feedback...
And no change...

@ZOS_Kevin What's the status on that forum reevaluation project?
Proceeding as planned?
On hold?
Shelved?

Some public communication is in order, I think.
I think the discontent around this issue is piling up. It's not good for the forums.

Dr_Con

It just looks like a Recent Thread feed would satisfy everyone, where there would be a tab to have it appear more like reddit within these forums, which might not be possible with the framework. However, use of that feed would be voluntary, and still not satisfy the OP's complaint.

VaranisArano

Dr_Con wrote: »

It just looks like a Recent Thread feed would satisfy everyone, which would there be a tab to have it appear more like reddit within these forums, which might not be possible with the framework.

How would that be distinct from the "Recent Discussions? which already exists? On PC, there's a Recent tab in the top bar next to the Devtracker and its (usually) in the sidebar menu on Mobile.

ESO_player123

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

100% General, 50/50 when PTS is going.

Same here.

Northwold

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

It just looks like a Recent Thread feed would satisfy everyone, which would there be a tab to have it appear more like reddit within these forums, which might not be possible with the framework.

How would that be distinct from the "Recent Discussions? which already exists? On PC, there's a Recent tab in the top bar next to the Devtracker and its (usually) in the sidebar menu on Mobile.

I don't disagree that that tab could be useful, but do many people really use the sidebar on mobile? I didn't actually know the recent link existed, and that it was there, until this thread happened(!) and have never used these forums on a desktop.

The mobile interface really is not very good. It feels like different functions have just been thrown randomly about any old place. So the topic list is a normal web page, pretty much, not the sidebar. But then recent discussions are in a sidebar that has to be clicked to be seen.

The behaviour of the sidebar itself is quite bizarre. It is not accessible at all from within a thread. When it does appear, it varies when you click on your profile into additional facets of your profile activity -- the stuff you would expect to see on the profile page itself, not in a navigation bar -- without any indication on the profile page that you need to look in the sidebar to find those facets, while when looking at forums the forum topic list doesn't appear in the sidebar at all.

It's chaotic and does not function in a consistent way for navigation, so I doubt people use it a lot, if at all.

If ZOS wish to maintain the status quo in how the forums are structured, at the very least the mobile version needs to have recent items appear as a topic, just like general discussions, etc, in the main topic list.

Assuming that's even possible with this forum software, of course (though presumably it is as the recent discussions tab already does that).

Dr_Con

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

It just looks like a Recent Thread feed would satisfy everyone, which would there be a tab to have it appear more like reddit within these forums, which might not be possible with the framework.

How would that be distinct from the "Recent Discussions? which already exists? On PC, there's a Recent tab in the top bar next to the Devtracker and its (usually) in the sidebar menu on Mobile.

It wouldn't be different tbh. If everyone used "Recent" this thread wouldn't exist (so I guess the challenge is to get people to use that tab?)

ADarklore

So exactly what is the 'general discussions' for then, if not for... you know... general discussions. I don't think ANY of these threads needed to be moved and really serves no purpose in doing so IMO.

OtarTheMad

I check general pretty much most of the time. When PTS has a big update I’ll check that as well. Sometimes I look in Lore but that’s about it.

MreeBiPolar

Dr_Con wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

It just looks like a Recent Thread feed would satisfy everyone, which would there be a tab to have it appear more like reddit within these forums, which might not be possible with the framework.

How would that be distinct from the "Recent Discussions? which already exists? On PC, there's a Recent tab in the top bar next to the Devtracker and its (usually) in the sidebar menu on Mobile.

It wouldn't be different tbh. If everyone used "Recent" this thread wouldn't exist (so I guess the challenge is to get people to use that tab?)

Maybe remove the code autohiding it.

Olauron

Dr_Con wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

It just looks like a Recent Thread feed would satisfy everyone, which would there be a tab to have it appear more like reddit within these forums, which might not be possible with the framework.

How would that be distinct from the "Recent Discussions? which already exists? On PC, there's a Recent tab in the top bar next to the Devtracker and its (usually) in the sidebar menu on Mobile.

It wouldn't be different tbh. If everyone used "Recent" this thread wouldn't exist (so I guess the challenge is to get people to use that tab?)

So I looked again at Recent to remind myself what it is. It is still awful pile of everything I don't need (combat, pvp, dungeon threads) with a very small percent of topics of interest (housing, weekly sets and furnishings, pts news). It is impossible to use in any meaningful way compared to structured and filtered threads in different categories.

valenwood_vegan

No follow-up from ZoS on this, I see. It did seem to stop for a little bit after the complaints about Bowd's weekly lux post being moved... but now posts are being randomly moved again. Sigh.

I'd still love a specific answer as to what is supposed to be posted in General Discussion... but I give up.

Jammy420

They just did this for my combat bug thread. As if it hasnt been a known bug for almost a decade. Smh

Snamyap

Not that I start threads very often but I'm probably going to stop altogether, it's just not worth the aggravation.

hrothbern

Just curious

Can anyone remember a case where a thread started in a sub forum was moved to the general forum ?

IF logic of the thread-subforum fit would be the only argument for moving then this moving to general should also occur !

IF however this moving to general never occurs, the inevitable conclusion is that when a member starts a thread in a sub forum that player choice outweights "somehow" other arguments, whereas as we see daily such a player choice has no weight when general is chosen.

That would be flawed logic

TaSheen

hrothbern wrote: »

Just curious

Can anyone remember a case where a thread started in a sub forum was moved to the general forum ?

IF logic of the thread-subforum fit would be the only argument for moving then this moving to general should also occur !

IF however this moving to general never occurs, the inevitable conclusion is that when a member starts a thread in a sub forum that player choice outweights "somehow" other arguments, whereas as we see daily such a player choice has no weight when general is chosen.

That would be flawed logic

There have been a few. I don't have time right now to go looking, got family showing up shortly. I'll make myself a note to look tomorrow.

spartaxoxo

hrothbern wrote: »

Can anyone remember a case where a thread started in a sub forum was moved to the general forum ?

I have seen a few. It's not typical but I know it's happened.

Here's an example

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615102/so-whatever-happened-to-that-q-a/p3#Comment_7713583

This thread was moved to GD after the patch left PTS and went live.

barney2525

How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
I go straight to General Discussion

What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
General Discussion

Do you think the forums have too many categories?
Yes

Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)
No

I post if some issue came up in game, if I know the answer to someone else's question, if I have something to add to the Fashion page, or I just browse whatever is a current hot topic. I see no reason that there should be an entire tree of links to navigate.

IMHO

Northwold

hrothbern wrote: »

Just curious

Can anyone remember a case where a thread started in a sub forum was moved to the general forum ?

IF logic of the thread-subforum fit would be the only argument for moving then this moving to general should also occur !

IF however this moving to general never occurs, the inevitable conclusion is that when a member starts a thread in a sub forum that player choice outweights "somehow" other arguments, whereas as we see daily such a player choice has no weight when general is chosen.

That would be flawed logic

I've seen at least one in the last month or so, though I don't remember what it was.

Jaraal

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So the posts being moved is so that they are in the sub-section that matches the contents of the thread. This is based on the current structure of the forum. The intent is not to harm players or hinder conversation.

However with that being said, we've noticed frustration with some of the moving of conversations and have started looking at how we can better address this problem. That way, those posting get the help they need and we have conversations happening in the right places. We do intend on asking a wider audience here on the forum how they use the forum currently and how that experience can be made better from user navigation standpoint.

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have too many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

It's interesting how quickly player concerns about the new chapter are being buried in forum sections no one goes to. Threads about why we lost a month's worth of campaign rewards are sent to a section that has discussions from last year on the front page, and half the threads there are only there because they were moved there for some reason.

@ZOS_Kevin , I'm curious why you asked for feedback on this issue, when it seems the vast majority of player comments are not in favor of forum thread musical chairs..... and yet it seems to be business as usual. Can you elaborate on why your team has chosen the unpopular route? It's clearly not contributing to meaningful forum discussion and interaction. And if this is going to be the status quo, maybe change the General ESO Discussion description from "The place to discuss a variety of ESO-related topics" to something like "The place for topics we can't pigeonhole elsewhere and a bunch of pinned discussions that are exempt from the relocation policy."

VaranisArano

This is a bit of an after-action report, I guess.

For Midyear Mayhem, I accidentally ended up as a bit of a case study for the central point of this thread, which is that when threads get moved out of General into lesser-used categories, they get less engagement and are less helpful to the players who are the target audience.

As longer-term forum goers may be aware, I've posted a Whitestrake's Mayhem guide since 2019. I've always posted it in the General Discussions forum for maximum visibility. This year, several hours after I posted it, the Forum Moderators moved my guide to "Player Guides." Some discussion about the Moderators moving it followed, ending when I asked posters to take it to this thread instead.

To be clear, I didn't argue with the moderators about their decision and I'm not really complaining about it now. After all, it IS a player guide. Nor am I expecting that it'll get featured every Whitestrake's Mayhem or something silly like that. But because my guide got moved out of General Discussions to a much lesser used subforum, its an interesting case study for what happened next. So I figured I'd do a little writeup.

Comparison to Past Years

Jan 2019 - 6K views - 69 comments - General ESO Discussion
Jan 2020 - 4.2k views - 36 comments - General ESO Discussion
Jun 2020 - 7.5k views - 44 comments - General ESO Discussion
Feb 2022 - 6.2k views - 50 comments - General ESO Discussion, pinned by ZOS, moved to Events & Contests after the event
Jul 2022 - 3.4k views - 47 comments - General ESO Discussion, , included in ZOS's Community Guides article
May 2023 - 1.6k views - 22 comments - Player Guides

Comments
I'd like to break down the comments a little more for the sake of comparison. In terms of content, Jul 2022 and May 2023 are nearly identical, so:

July 2022
7 comments comprise the guide itself
38 comments on the topic of the guide
2 comments related to me, uh, accidentally necroing my own thread because I'm a silly person

May 2023
7 comments comprise the guide itself
9 comments on the topic of the guide
6 comments on moving the guide, including me directing people to this thread.
The most recent comment is from May 10th, the day before Whitestrake's Mayhem started.

Views
Start of the event: 1.3k views
End of the event: 1.6k views.
This isn't surprising to me; with zero comments on the guide since Mayhem started, there's nothing to keep it at the front pages of Recent Discussions. So the only way players would find their way to it is by looking in "Player Guides" or following a link to the guide.

To be clear, I understood that by directing players here to discuss moving the thread, I was removing a source of comments that could have kept my guide fresh in Recent Discussions. I purposefully didn't bump my own thread once the event started. I also don't have a reliable way of tracking how much engagement happened during the event for past threads for comparison. I only took note of it this time because I was planning on writing this post.

I got a lot less engagement with my Whitestrake's Mayhem guide than usual, both in terms of views and on-topic comments.

There's plenty of possible reasons why it got less engagement that are completely unrelated to it being moved to Player Guides within a few hours of posting, of course. Unlike the last two times in 2022, it wasn't featured in a Community Guide roundup or pinned to the front page. Unlike previous Mayhem events, there's also been a lot less complaining threads from players or players asking for help than usual, so I only linked it to the main article for the event and like twice more on other complaint threads.

So hey, if the reason players aren't looking at my guide is because they don't need it or they're finding the info they need in other places, YAY! That's fantastic news! And you know, it might be true that with another Whitestrake's Mayhem coming up soon, even if my guide is left in General Discussions, it may not perform any better in terms of player engagement/views. So I don't want to act like this is a smoking gun or anything, because its almost certainly more complicated than just "ZOS Mods moved it -> it effectively died before the event started."

On the other hand? I wasn't trying to be a test case, but here's a guide that got moved out of General Discussions where its always been. The end result, for whatever reason, was much less on-topic engagement and views in Player Guides.

Jaraal

VaranisArano wrote: »

For Midyear Mayhem, I accidentally ended up as a bit of a case study for the central point of this thread, which is that when threads get moved out of General into lesser-used categories, they get less engagement and are less helpful to the players who are the target audience.

Which is exactly why so many Dev generated threads are pinned in General ESO Discussion. It's because they know that that is where most players are reading, and thus their posts will get the most views.

And that double standard is what makes the entire situation that much more egregious. It gives the appearance that what players have to say is much less relevant or important than what the developers have to say. And to be honest, I'd be hard pressed to point to a pinned thread that was more informative and engaging than your excellent MYM write-up.

Soraka

I feel like there's a lot more redundant threads now over the same topics.

wilykcat

Soraka wrote: »

I feel like there's a lot more redundant threads now over the same topics.

I agree. These kinds of threads complaining about almost non-existing issues are ridiculous.

If your posts gets moved so what. The forums are meant to be organized so people can easily find stuff