Please STOP pushing threads into "Players helping Players" section

Zodiarkslayer

We are all Players. We all help. By definition two out of three threads/discussions can be put there.
But that doesn't mean they HAVE to go there every time!

Especially players asking for advice on builds and combat get pushed into "Players helping Players" a lot lately. New Player's questions in particular. However, the moderators do not seem to be aware that it is a minor thread where only a handful of players are visiting/reading regularly. Thus the HELP is rather limited. And having his own thread pushed around does not encourage further engagement with the forum in general. Is there even a note where the thread gets pushed to? I believe not.

At the moment there are 29 threads on the first page of "Players helping Players". In only six of them did a moderator not post.
20 out of 29 threads have been moved to "Players helping Players".
And worse, in eight threads the moderator's post is the LAST post of this thread, effectively ENDING the discussion by moving it. Only one was closed closed for being a bumped "Necro thread".

Dear Moderators, please stop hurting players in need of help. It is maddening!

MaleAmazon

Agree. It would have been one thing if those threads overwhelmed a super active forum, but that isn´t the case...

SilverBride

The problem is there are too many topic specific forums. I rarely look at any forums other than General and Housing, and occasionally ToT.

Players helping others is more likely to happen if the help requests are in a forum that is frequently visited.

Tandor

It certainly explains why this forum has seemed to me to be quieter recently - and that always leads to the impression that the game is less popular! Maybe the Forum Manager's idea is to spread more posts around the more relevant sub-forums with a view to encouraging more people to visit them. Otherwise I do agree that it is weakening both this forum and new players' sense of response to their queries with no really obvious benefit.

Any views on this please, @ZOS_Kevin ?

ZOS_Kevin

So the posts being moved is so that they are in the sub-section that matches the contents of the thread. This is based on the current structure of the forum. The intent is not to harm players or hinder conversation.

However with that being said, we've noticed frustration with some of the moving of conversations and have started looking at how we can better address this problem. That way, those posting get the help they need and we have conversations happening in the right places. We do intend on asking a wider audience here on the forum how they use the forum currently and how that experience can be made better from user navigation standpoint.

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have too many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

ZOS_Kevin

Also thanks for the tag @Tandor. Appreciate it.

KlauthWarthog

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
  Participated, then Dev Tracker, then Recent. I do not browse by category.
  
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
  See above.
  
• Do you think the forums have to many categories?
  Not relevant due to how I browse the topics.
  
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)
  Yes, some.

BaalMelqartu

@ZOS_Kevin
Personal answers:
-I view General Discussion 80% of the time, Combat Mechanics 20% of the time, very rarely the other sections. I use the Mechanics section for specific combat/build questions.
-I DO think there are too many categories I suppose. For instance, I never even gave "Players Helping Players" section a glance. I assumed it was for people looking into how to join guilds for new players or some such. For general ESO questions(including beginner), I feel "Players Helping Players" 100% just should go into "General Discussion."

Thanks for being open to feedback!

SilverBride

How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
- Almost all my participation is on the General forum.

What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
- General, and occasionally Housing and ToT.

Do you think the forums have to many categories?
- There are 36 separate forums. That is way too many.

Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)
- I use Participated a lot but not the others.

jaws343

I still think a lot of peoples problems with forum navigation and thread visibility would be solved if they just used the Recent section rather than individual topic sections.

Maybe that just needs to be the default "Home" section.

Feljax

General most of the time. I'll rarely pop into the Battlegrounds and other PvP related categories but they aren't that active. The only other category I hit is the Public Test Server to see what's coming up. Don't think I've ever even looked at any of the others. Definitely too many categories.

ArchMikem

It would be nice if more people actually did take the time to see the Forum indeed has dedicated sub forums for certain topics, and then actually make use of those sub forums.

ZOS_Kevin

Thanks for the quick feedback already. Wanted to provide a bit more context from our side of things. We literally started the conversation internally around possible changes to forum navigation and categories last week. So this is just in opening stages and nothing is set in stone. Just stating this to note that there will be some time before changes are actually seen on the forum. But your feedback here will help form a starting point for those conversations to continue.

Hope that's helpful just to give some background. Please continue to provide feedback in this thread. We'll be reading and taking note of feedback provided.

Sarannah

Gotta agree here, "playes helping players" is not helping... ironically. Let those threads stay in general discussion, so every player can see them. Once they have run their course, they move from the frontpage anyways.

Just remove players helping players.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
  Personally I only use the general discussion forum, bug forum, technical support forum, and check the news post forum if an interesting article was posted on the main ESO website. But 99 out of a 100 visits it is only general discussion I visit. And I'm trying to be as helpful as I can be, in the forums I visit.
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
  General discussion, bug, technical support, and news post forum. And general discussion is the 100% always!
• Do you think the forums have to many categories?
  Yes! Bigtime yes. When posts about events, PvP, new player questions, dungeons, and other threads are moved, I know the discussion is dead.
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)
  None to all. I just click the few forums I visit. Or go throught my profile and check my last few replies to find a (moved) discussion.

Thanks for your response, will answer your questions in bold above.

Another thing I'd like to note is: We need an off-topic forum, where we can discuss basically anything. Including other games. I still visit forums for games I have quit a long time ago(path of exile, diablo 3, etc), just to see what players think about certain topics in their off-topic forums. Another plus about that is, retired players will be more likely to catch ESO news(new expansions, etc), or get the tingle to try ESO again in the future. As they are still visiting the forums after quitting, they still get all the ESO related updates. Things an off-topic forum could include are real world events, like covid, earthquake, crypto, other things like that. Movies/tv-shows, other games(what do players think about Diablo 4, etc), any reallife/relationship issue they want advice on, etc. Basically almost anything. Moderation would have to be on their toes to prevent major arguments/fights though, and some things like war/religion should always stay off limits/forbidden topics.

PS: Thanks for not moving this topic to "players helping moderators".
PPS: Make old threads(6+ months old) automatically become locked, to prevent necroing threads. With the exceptions of pinned threads ofcourse.

vsrs_au

I don't agree with auto-locking threads, as many of them remain relevant years after being created. There are several threads in the Guides section that should NEVER be auto-locked, for example.

aaisoaho

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?

Keep it open at the general discussion. Sometimes visit the PTS and combat mechanics. If I notice some interesting topic I participated in has moved to an other subsection, I sometimes go check on the topic if I remember.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

What are your most viewed sections of the forum?

General discussion, PTS and Combat mechanics. In that order. If I had to guess, 80% of the time I spend at general, 15% at PTS and 5% at combat mechanics.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Do you think the forums have to many categories?

Yes, I do think so. One of the telltale signs for me is the fact that I cannot remember even half of them. There's news, patch notes, general, combat mechanics, housing, tales of tribute, PTS, player helping players, PVP?, Trials?, Guilds?.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

No, I do not. They are hidden on mobile and thus I rarely even know they exist.

TaSheen

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have to many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

[*] How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
I start with General, very rarely check Housing. I don't use Recent or Participated. I'm on General most of the day every day.

[*] What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
General , occasionally Housing (very rarely)

[*] Do you think the forums have to many categories?
Absolutely

[*] Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)
Dev Tracker occasionally, none of the rest

Stefirex

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So the posts being moved is so that they are in the sub-section that matches the contents of the thread. This is based on the current structure of the forum. The intent is not to harm players or hinder conversation.

However with that being said, we've noticed frustration with some of the moving of conversations and have started looking at how we can better address this problem. That way, those posting get the help they need and we have conversations happening in the right places. We do intend on asking a wider audience here on the forum how they use the forum currently and how that experience can be made better from user navigation standpoint.

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have to many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

You can mark me down as one who only reads the general forum. I may make posts in Player's Helping Players once in a blue moon or Tech support but I don't go there to read anything if I don't have an active thread there. I have never once use the navigation tabs. I spend my time in game and only use the forums for support if I need it.

Sarannah wrote: »

Another thing I'd like to note is: We need an off-topic forum, where we can discuss basically anything. Including other games. I still visit forums for games I have quit a long time ago(path of exile, diablo 3, etc), just to see what players think about certain topics in their off-topic forums.

I'mma vote no on any off-topic forum. Just sayin'....

MaleAmazon

How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?

I only use the general ESO discussion. EDIT: apart from checking patch notes.

What are your most viewed sections of the forum?

See above.

Do you think the forums have to many categories?

Yes.

Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

No, I actually wasn´t even aware they existed really, but I´ll use them from now on.

jaws343

aaisoaho wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?

Keep it open at the general discussion. Sometimes visit the PTS and combat mechanics. If I notice some interesting topic I participated in has moved to an other subsection, I sometimes go check on the topic if I remember.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

What are your most viewed sections of the forum?

General discussion, PTS and Combat mechanics. In that order. If I had to guess, 80% of the time I spend at general, 15% at PTS and 5% at combat mechanics.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Do you think the forums have to many categories?

Yes, I do think so. One of the telltale signs for me is the fact that I cannot remember even half of them. There's news, patch notes, general, combat mechanics, housing, tales of tribute, PTS, player helping players, PVP?, Trials?, Guilds?.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

No, I do not. They are hidden on mobile and thus I rarely even know they exist.

That raises a good point. In order to get to Recent on mobile, you have to jump through a handful of hoops. It's still worth doing, but it isn't as front and center as it is on desktop.

Snamyap

I also mainly use general discussion, and take a peak in combat & mechanics now and then and PTS when a new build drops. There are way, way too many subforums, and yes: moving topics is infuriating and usually the end of the discussion.

TaSheen

Stefirex wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Another thing I'd like to note is: We need an off-topic forum, where we can discuss basically anything. Including other games. I still visit forums for games I have quit a long time ago(path of exile, diablo 3, etc), just to see what players think about certain topics in their off-topic forums.

I'mma vote no on any off-topic forum. Just sayin'....

Agree. Those turn into moderators' nightmares, and I've seen posters in off-topic forums elsewhere follow others to different areas of sites in order to harass them. Another moderator nightmare.

vsrs_au

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?

I visit various categories regularly.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

What are your most viewed sections of the forum?

General, Crafting, Bug, Crown Store, Helping, Creations, Quests, Dungeons.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Do you think the forums have to many categories?

Yes, it would probably work well enough if the number of categories was halved (and I suspect it would lighten the moderators' load, they wouldn't have to spend as much time moving threads).

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

I've never used them.

SilverBride

jaws343 wrote: »

In order to get to Recent on mobile, you have to jump through a handful of hoops. It's still worth doing, but it isn't as front and center as it is on desktop.

I use my phone about 95% of the time when visiting the forums but I checkmark the box in my browser menu that says [ x ] Desktop site. This makes the forums look exactly like they do on my PC browser.

You can also choose the Menu at the top left corner of the page and choose Full Site to make it do the same, but this will stay this way until you change it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

jaws343 wrote: »

I still think a lot of peoples problems with forum navigation and thread visibility would be solved if they just used the Recent section rather than individual topic sections.

Maybe that just needs to be the default "Home" section.

I agree with the OP 1000%!

@ZOS_Kevin
I had 10 stars on these forums before @jaws343 pointed out the Recent option to me. LOL. It is definitely useful, but I still dont always use it (especially if on a mobile device). Honestly, I typical check "General Discussion", "Combat & Character Mechanics" and "Patch Notes and Hot Fixes" (when I know patch notes are about to drop). I don't think I have ever specifically gone to "Players Helping Players" in all of my time on these forums.

I think the big issue, as someone that generally likes to try to be a "player helping a player", is that the second a thread gets moved to that forum, it dies. We have topic overload. I don't post that many new topics, but I pretty much always put them in the "General Discussion" section, or they never get off the ground because nobody sees them. The second they get moved to an obscure forum, the topic dies and pretty much the only responses are from people who get tagged or were already in the discussion.

We simply have too many forum topics, and it is overpoliced in terms of Devs moving stuff around. I just counted 36 different subsections, not counting the read only stuff. It is overkill to an absurd degree.

I think if people want to post stuff in a one off forum, great, but anything posted in general discussion should be left there unless the OP requests for it be moved. Seems to me that General Discussion can refer to darn near anything. I would also take a hard look at getting the number of forum categories down into the single digit range.

Necrotech_Master

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have too many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

[*] How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?

• i usually check several categories, but the ones i frequent the most are: general, PTS (when theres an active PTS), bug reports (to try to provide help), players helping players (to also provide help), and at least a quick browse through combat, housing, crafting, ToT, and some of the pvp subforums

[*] What are your most viewed sections of the forum?

• probably general, players helping players, bug reports, PTS in that order

[*] Do you think the forums have too many categories?

• yeah, there are some categories that seem a little redundant (for example in the pvp subforums there is "alliance war and imperial city" and "campaigns" what is the difference between alliance war and campaigns? are they not the same thing?)

[*] Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

• 99% of the time i usually use categories because that is the default view
• dev tracker would probably be used more if there were just more dev posts
• unanswered while it returns threads that have no reply posts, the problem is some of the threads that come up in here are ancient and no longer relevant
• i never really used recent because if i need recent i just go to the subforum, and recent posts are always at the top of the subforum, so dont feel like its useful unless you want an overall across subforums
• to go along with the recent, i find participated kind of the similar problem, active participation threads are usually on the first page of the subforum

Destai

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So the posts being moved is so that they are in the sub-section that matches the contents of the thread. This is based on the current structure of the forum. The intent is not to harm players or hinder conversation.

It does hinder conversation though, that's the thing. I feel like people have been saying this for a while. I've had threads moved in the past, and despite me saying I wasn't looking for help, it still went there.

Here's another one from another player. This is just a topic of the general state of the game. Check out the OPs comment to see how the thread's handling comes across.

And another. This was a very evergreen topic and now we have a 2nd thread on it. I've brought it up before, but I think there's a really simple change to make. When a thread is closed, the moderator should be posting a link to the old/duplicate conversation in the active one. Really simple request that shows they respect our contributions.

With necroing threads, most of them are either because it's an ongoing issue with new evidence, or it's a more evergreen topic. I can see if people were talking about combat changes or something like that, but more times than not, that's not the case. If there is something out of date, I feel it's incumbent on that moderator to point out what. That seems like fair place to start.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

However with that being said, we've noticed frustration with some of the moving of conversations and have started looking at how we can better address this problem. That way, those posting get the help they need and we have conversations happening in the right places. We do intend on asking a wider audience here on the forum how they use the forum currently and how that experience can be made better from user navigation standpoint.

But since the conversation was started here, we'll ask some starting questions.

• How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
• What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
• Do you think the forums have to many categories?
• Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

I'm glad you're noticing the frustrations. I hope that you're also looking at what other frustrations many of us have here. Reddit might also give you some unfiltered insight. You may recall when you first joined, I outlined some ways to improve the forum experience, and a lot of those don't require navigation changes. I'm happy to DM you if you need more detail. There's a reputation here and elsewhere that we have to tip-toe with our words, and honestly, it's fairly earned.

I personally find the forums pretty frustrating to engage at times. I don't feel like my time is respected by ZOS. It's a bit frustrating to have to review my own comments just so I can try to remember what I originally said a week later because someone took it poorly.

I used the top bar navigation a lot. I can quickly check out what "Dev" posts there (separate topic) and re-engage my conversations. Outside of that, I tend to focus on General Discussion or Patch Notes. I will also go to bugs and PTS servers on occasion, but I can't get answers on some issues after months of asking. As a result, I go there less.

Again, I appreciate that you're considering the community's frustrations. Hopefully it results in your practices changing.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Thanks for the quick feedback already. Wanted to provide a bit more context from our side of things. We literally started the conversation internally around possible changes to forum navigation and categories last week. So this is just in opening stages and nothing is set in stone. Just stating this to note that there will be some time before changes are actually seen on the forum. But your feedback here will help form a starting point for those conversations to continue.

Hope that's helpful just to give some background. Please continue to provide feedback in this thread. We'll be reading and taking note of feedback provided.

Check out the thread I linked about moving. It's one example of the mobile navigation that doesn't feel intuitive to me. Is there a possibility for tags in place of the numerous categories? Any sense when we'll get the different iconography between moderators, developers, and CMs?

Lumenn

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

[*] How do you use the forums currently?
Mobile 99% of the time
Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?
general, housing, crafting, and pvp
[*] What are your most viewed sections of the forum?
general 99% of the time
[*] Do you think the forums have too many categories?
absolutely
[*] Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)
I mostly play Xbox and am rarely sitting at my computer. I can easily check the forums while on break, lunch, waiting on my wife to finish dressing etc on my phone rather than go to my study and log onto my computer. While yes, you can use desktop site on your phone it is MUCH easier to just stay mobile while browsing and as such, these might as well not exist. I'd even venture to say that many of your console users may not even have a home computer (gasp! In this day and age! ) and may not even realize the forums have different tools between the two layouts
[/list]

Gotta agree with Oreyn_Bearclaw general should stay in general for the most part. Long time players who don't do "housing" anymore can still give that newbie some advice they wouldn't get from the few posters in housing. There might be some who have NEVER tried pvp spark an interest off a minor thread rather than having to dive headfirst into the full fledged pvp categories. And so on and so on.

Stefirex

Destai wrote: »

There's a reputation here and elsewhere that we have to tip-toe with our words, and honestly, it's fairly earned.

I can only speak for myself, but I find the forums particularly frustrating to engage at times. Personally, I don't feel like my time is respected by ZOS. It's a bit frustrating to have to review my own comments just so I can try to remember what I originally said a week later because someone took it poorly.

Quoted for extreme agreement here. I no longer participate in the forums with my main account because it got to the point where I felt like I was being targeted for harassment by the moderators. It seemed I was constantly being flagged for baiting and yet when I participate with this account I don't seem to have that issue, so it seems likely I was targeted.

Ingenon

[*] How do you use the forums currently? Are you going to one specific category or do you visit multiple?

Usually Participated, Recent, and Dev Tracker.

[*] What are your most viewed sections of the forum?

I don't usually look at the sections. Unless I am having a game problem, and then I look in Bug Reports and Technical Support. I find that the pinned items at the top of Recent mostly cover the News & Website Article Discussions section. Otherwise I would look there.

[*] Do you think the forums have too many categories?

Maybe. I don't use all of them. If I start a new thread, I do it in General. It looks to me like new threads in other categories don't get noticed by many people.

[*] Do you use the navigation tabs at the top? (Categories, Dev Tracker, Recent, Unanswered, Participated)

Yes (see above).

Androrix

Any threads I have posted that have been moved die immediately. I assume some subforums (housing?) are active, but most are just graveyards where lots of interesting threads are interred.