Why do you insist on plowing forward with changes that are clearly bad for the game?

acastanza_ESO

Basically title.
The complete lack of combat adjustments in the incremental patch today shows that ZOS is not taking the issues we've raised with their direction this, and the last several, patches seriously.

Plowing forward with buffing DKs, the already objectively most overpowered class in the game, only considering which skills "used", and ignoring the full picture of the class as a whole.
Plowing forward with health-scaling wards even though this is not even remotely related to the changes that were asked for.
Plowing forward with no meaningfuladjustments for Sorcerer or Templar, or anything to replace the deleted playstyle for Necromancers.
Plowing forward with Snake in the Stars even though it is barely a band-aid for the very real problem of PVP healstacking.

What do we have to do to get the design team to take a step back and actually pay meaningful attention to our feedback?
It clearly isn't "provide hard data" because we've done that and all we've gotten back is a "nah, we don't think that's a problem", or a "we're looking at this" (then nothing ever comes of it).

ForumBully

If only it was just one bad update...it's the whole chapter that's been a complete disaster on all fronts.

Ragnarok0130

OP I'm definitely getting deja vu from U35 and the U35 Q&A with the lack of discourse on topics like Templar/Sorc/Necro while simultaneously buffing DKs for some ungodly baffling reason.

React

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken. Healers, tanks, damage dealers, it doesn't matter - the set is the best in slot option on every single build. Instead of removing the burst heal from the purge or extending the CD on the purge, they reduce the heal by a tiny amount which is going to result in no noticeable power difference, leaving the set as the BIS option for the foreseeable future.

These are just a few of the things that stick out to me, but there are plenty of other examples. At this point, it just feels like zenimax doesn't care whatsoever about the combat balance in ESO.

TechMaybeHic

They don't even look in to see what might actually be broken with abilities let alone balance. They might really be on a skeleton crew. I kind of want the new class but I am not wanting to buy anything if things are always going to be a disaster, untouched for 3 months minimum at a time.

ForumBully

"We hear you but we know best" or "We'll keep an eye on this" might be reassuring if it weren't for the fact that the last few major adjustments had the opposite effects of the stated intentions from developers.
Good will and trust are depleted completely, it's time to start listening to the people that play the game rather than the spreadsheets and bad ideas of those who can't even make a cup of coffee correctly.

Bushido2513

ForumBully wrote: »

"We hear you but we know best" or "We'll keep an eye on this" might be reassuring if it weren't for the fact that the last few major adjustments had the opposite effects of the stated intentions from developers.
Good will and trust are depleted completely, it's time to start listening to the people that play the game rather than the spreadsheets and bad ideas of those who can't even make a cup of coffee correctly.

Not to be antagonistic here but I think it's important to note that they probably know they can't please everyone so they are likely choosing to more so please the groups that they feel will give them the most return on investment.

I read posts on and check out YT commentaries fairly often and it's clear which group is getting something to keep them happy and which group is a bit of an afterthought sadly.

ForumBully

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

"We hear you but we know best" or "We'll keep an eye on this" might be reassuring if it weren't for the fact that the last few major adjustments had the opposite effects of the stated intentions from developers.
Good will and trust are depleted completely, it's time to start listening to the people that play the game rather than the spreadsheets and bad ideas of those who can't even make a cup of coffee correctly.

Not to be antagonistic here but I think it's important to note that they probably know they can't please everyone so they are likely choosing to more so please the groups that they feel will give them the most return on investment.

I read posts on and check out YT commentaries fairly often and it's clear which group is getting something to keep them happy and which group is a bit of an afterthought sadly.

That's not my specific complaint here, I'm saying they are making changes and giving reasons for those changes, but the outcomes don't match their own intentions. That has nothing to do with what I'd like, they're missing their own targets.
Light attack changes did not raise any floors or lower any ceilings in the way that they hoped, and players told them those changes would not work.
Snake in the Stars, intended to target extreme HoT stacking will only effect solo and small group players...missing the mark again.
They refuse to recognize that the changes they're making are not having the results they claim to be after and it's because they play the numbers not the game.

Bushido2513

A fr

ForumBully wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

"We hear you but we know best" or "We'll keep an eye on this" might be reassuring if it weren't for the fact that the last few major adjustments had the opposite effects of the stated intentions from developers.
Good will and trust are depleted completely, it's time to start listening to the people that play the game rather than the spreadsheets and bad ideas of those who can't even make a cup of coffee correctly.

Not to be antagonistic here but I think it's important to note that they probably know they can't please everyone so they are likely choosing to more so please the groups that they feel will give them the most return on investment.

I read posts on and check out YT commentaries fairly often and it's clear which group is getting something to keep them happy and which group is a bit of an afterthought sadly.

That's not my specific complaint here, I'm saying they are making changes and giving reasons for those changes, but the outcomes don't match their own intentions. That has nothing to do with what I'd like, they're missing their own targets.
Light attack changes did not raise any floors or lower any ceilings in the way that they hoped, and players told them those changes would not work.
Snake in the Stars, intended to target extreme HoT stacking will only effect solo and small group players...missing the mark again.
They refuse to recognize that the changes they're making are not having the results they claim to be after and it's because they play the numbers not the game.

Obviously this could all be handled much better but I will have to say that to their credit they have generally never put a time frame on anything.


I think if any commentary here helps move them in the direction people want then that's cool. But sometimes it seems like people wilfully disregard that they have clearly demonstrated patterns of behavior that they will keep on using.

At this point they are basically going to do anything they want to PvP short of just turning it off altogether and you can make suggestions but they will just fall back on hey we're working on it.

And to some degree I get it because hey they are still making money. Only thing that might ever change any of this is their bottom line being affected and I don't see that really happening anytime soon.

katorga

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken.

Mara's Balm, in its current form, is a requirement for some classes to be viable. Put that way, nerfing Mara's is buffing the classes that are just fine without it.

olsborg

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Plowing forward with buffing DKs, the already objectively most overpowered class in the game, only considering which skills "used", and ignoring the full picture of the class as a whole.

Yup, its just sad at this point.

TechMaybeHic

katorga wrote: »

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken.

Mara's Balm, in its current form, is a requirement for some classes to be viable. Put that way, nerfing Mara's is buffing the classes that are just fine without it.

Im not sure how it is a requirement outside of just being meta. I can't think of one class that was struggling until Mara's came along. I can think of others that have struggled since it came out; though. When your burst requires an effect staying on a target, pretty rough to have it just magically fall away.

ForumBully

katorga wrote: »

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken.

Mara's Balm, in its current form, is a requirement for some classes to be viable. Put that way, nerfing Mara's is buffing the classes that are just fine without it.

It's never worth trying to save a set that's propping up classes that are neglected. Sets shouldn't be the way to balance classes.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken.

Mara's Balm, in its current form, is a requirement for some classes to be viable. Put that way, nerfing Mara's is buffing the classes that are just fine without it.

Im not sure how it is a requirement outside of just being meta. I can't think of one class that was struggling until Mara's came along. I can think of others that have struggled since it came out; though. When your burst requires an effect staying on a target, pretty rough to have it just magically fall away.

Hybrid Sorc would like to have a word. I only say that because I've favored the class off and on over the years.

Maras isn't a requirement exactly but it fills in the very large hole where reliable hybrid Sorc healing should be. You can make it work with other builds but maras definitely makes it feel like a much more reasonably complete class.

Bushido2513

ForumBully wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken.

Mara's Balm, in its current form, is a requirement for some classes to be viable. Put that way, nerfing Mara's is buffing the classes that are just fine without it.

It's never worth trying to save a set that's propping up classes that are neglected. Sets shouldn't be the way to balance classes.

In this case where that's basically the only option were given, might as well bite because they clearly aren't implementing other suggestions at this point.

Billium813

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

That's interesting because I kinda got the exact opposite feeling from the responses.

Kevin asked for more discussions on Templar and Sorc pain points; which the community described in GREAT detail. We described issues with Mara's Balm and heal stacking / SitS. Minor changes were made and the community may not like the final result for those sets, but in all honesty I'm not sure what players were expecting...

There was NO world in which any of those class issues would be addressed in this same PTS cycle they were brought up. There was NO world in which ZOS just reverts all their proposed changes and says "ok, I guess we aren't doing anything then this PTS". Mara's Balm is most likely still busted, SitS is most likely gonna hurt PvP further, but ZOS wants to see some Live results before they make FURTHER changes. I say "Fine, whatever"; I'm not happy about it either but until they see for themselves they won't believe us anyway and they AREN"T going to make radical changes without Live evidence! That's just how it is. I just think players need to exercise a bit of patience in their expectations. We, the community, dumped a bunch of information and HOPEFULLY this will go back to the dev team to be addressed in some form in the next patch. Keep your eyes on v8.4.0 and when what we brought up here is ignored there... then complain.

IMO, my biggest issue with PTS is the same issue I've had for the last 6 years: It's gonna take the team 3-4 months to fix issues that we will know are problems 1 week after the changes go Live. I acknowledge that the current system is TERRIBLY SLOW, I want that fixed as much as anyone. But I think we should be complaining about the slow dev cycle, not because we THINK they aren't listening

duagloth

Because people keep paying and supporting the game,sad.

KlauthWarthog

Billium813 wrote: »

Keep your eyes on v8.4.0 and when what we brought up here is ignored there... then complain.

8.4.0 will be about the new class. If anything, the existing classes will get targeted nerfs to accommodate it.
Try 8.5.0 at the earliest.

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken.

Mara's Balm, in its current form, is a requirement for some classes to be viable. Put that way, nerfing Mara's is buffing the classes that are just fine without it.

Im not sure how it is a requirement outside of just being meta. I can't think of one class that was struggling until Mara's came along. I can think of others that have struggled since it came out; though. When your burst requires an effect staying on a target, pretty rough to have it just magically fall away.

Sorcerer in general would like to have a word regarding this statement. Ever since the nerf to restoration staves in U34, sorcerer has relied almost entirely on Mara's Balm to carry it's healing.

FYI, sorcerer also has 2 delayed burst abilities that require a cleansable effect to stay on the target, not just 1.

TechMaybeHic

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken.

Mara's Balm, in its current form, is a requirement for some classes to be viable. Put that way, nerfing Mara's is buffing the classes that are just fine without it.

Im not sure how it is a requirement outside of just being meta. I can't think of one class that was struggling until Mara's came along. I can think of others that have struggled since it came out; though. When your burst requires an effect staying on a target, pretty rough to have it just magically fall away.

Sorcerer in general would like to have a word regarding this statement. Ever since the nerf to restoration staves in U34, sorcerer has relied almost entirely on Mara's Balm to carry it's healing.

FYI, sorcerer also has 2 delayed burst abilities that require a cleansable effect to stay on the target, not just 1.

Yeah, I realize the 2nd part. Its why I was not expecting Sorc to be mentioned but it does make sense missing the heal

Turtle_Bot

Billium813 wrote: »

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

IMO, my biggest issue with PTS is the same issue I've had for the last 6 years: It's gonna take the team 3-4 months to fix issues that we will know are problems 1 week after the changes go Live. I acknowledge that the current system is TERRIBLY SLOW, I want that fixed as much as anyone. But I think we should be complaining about the slow dev cycle, not because we THINK they aren't listening

There's actually a pretty easy way to solve this issue.

1. When feedback is provided in regards to something under/overperforming, listen to it, take note and acknowledge that it has been seen and is being actively worked on.
2. If it is something that cannot be fixed via a simple numbers change, then acknowledge as much and say that you will be looking to address this issue for the next pts cycle (or in a mid-patch update), not "maybe in some arbitrary future update, whenever we feel like it".
3. Most importantly actually make changes that will fix the raised issues instead of ignoring them, hiding them or worse exacerbating them.


So far, Kevin has been doing a great job with point 1, and has been doing his best to address point 2 (with very little help from the combat team that seems to be intent on making this impossible for him), but point 3 (the most important point), is either being completely ignored or addressed in completely the wrong way (which is not kevins fault, but the fault of the combat team who seem to be refusing to even contemplate the idea that there are others out there who have just as much (if not more) experience in regards to how the game is actively being played and can provide significant insight into what effects proposed changes will actually have).

It's also very obvious that the combat team rarely listens to feedback if at all, so it's not just that "we think" they aren't listening, there is more than enough evidence (especially over the past 2 years) that is proving that they aren't listening to the feedback provided and are just pushing through their own ideas instead.
- Entirety of U35
- Plar issues from U35/36 reworks
- Harmony and by extension necro changes this cycle
- DK chains this cycle
- Item sets including:
- Mara's balm
- Dark convergence
- plaguebreak
- hrothgars
- snake in the stars
- heal stacking in PvP
The list goes on.

If they were truly listening and understanding the feedback provided, they would have redone the DK chains change (even something as simple as changing major berserk to minor berserk would have calmed down most of the push back regarding this change, especially if they also stated that they would look into making it less clunky to use for U38).
They also would not have come back and said what they said about the sorcerer class regarding the multitude of issues that many sorc mains have raised regarding that class.

Edit: I would also like to add, sorcerer mains especially, have been bringing up the issues with the class basically since U35 and earlier (more than 6 months now) and have been completely ignored by the combat/balance team who have had more than enough time to design and test the simplest of changes that would have better aligned with fixing the issues presented regarding the class, so there is more than enough justification to bring up these issues in regards to the feedback being ignored now and not having to wait another patch cycle when there has been over 2 full patches and almost 3 full PTS cycles of information being provided to the team in regards to these issues.

Cloudrest

Kevin did an amazing job and should be commended for communicating and trying to relay our concerns to the combat team, but ultimately our feedback fell on deaf ears. I sincerely think some long-forum Q&A thread on the PTS forums, open to everyone, where the combat team sits down and answers questions/addresses concerns would go an extremely long way, just like how Kevin communicating has done wonders for people being constructive with their criticism instead of lapsing into dev-bashing and toxicity like so many PTS cycles before.

More than anything, I think, people want to feel as if they have a voice that's being heard. There's got to be a way to reconcile the combat team's vision for the game with player needs/expectations. They shouldn't be incompatible, and I'm not saying that they are, but there needs to be a productive, two-sided conversation.

Dr_Con

Goodbye Elder Scrolls Online (ESO)

Hello Dragon Knight Online (DKO)

SkaraMinoc

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Plowing forward with buffing DKs

4 second Major Berserk isn't much of a buff. It changes very little in PvP.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Plowing forward with Snake in the Stars even though it is barely a band-aid for the very real problem of PVP healstacking.

Heal stacking is by design. Snake in the Stars isn't meant to be a hard counter to ball groups. The math looks sufficient for the set's intended use as a temporary window to kill a single player. Let's see how well it works on Live.

Pelanora

React wrote: »

This has been a very frustrating PTS cycle.

The communication Kevin offered was a double edged sword. While we have been begging for it (which we shouldn't have to), the gist of what they told us is that "We hear your concerns, but we're going to do what we think is best". Perhaps this is why they've been so hesitant to offer communication about balance in the past - because they have no intentions of justifying or clarifying their decisions related to balance.

The PVP side of the game is in dire need for adjustments, many of which have been explained in great detail as far back as 6 months ago. We don't get new content, so at the very least it would be nice to have proper balance changes made - but zenimax doesn't seem willing to even do that.

Heal stacking not being addressed is disgusting. Coordinated 12 man groups are crippling the performance on PC NA. The game will perform flawlessly even in a population locked campaign, but the moment one of these groups is present in a keep fight, everything falls apart. In addition to the performance concerns, this behavior is making these groups truly untouchable - they are receiving 15k+ HPS from heal over times alone, making them invulnerable to burst damage. Any damage you can deal to them is instantly regenerated within one GCD before they even begin using burst heals, defensive ults, or sets like earthgore. It is so obviously problematic, and yet zenimax refuses to make the clearly needed adjustment of limiting hots to two of specific morph.

Instead, we get snake in the stars. A set that is going to be extremely punishing to solo, ungrouped, and small scale players, but will not phase ball groups in the slightest.

Mara's balm gets adjusted for the third time, but still not in the way it needs to be. On PC NA, it seems about 50% of the players I encounter are wearing mara's balm. Even people that normally would have no idea what to run on their builds are equipping the set because it is so obviously broken. Healers, tanks, damage dealers, it doesn't matter - the set is the best in slot option on every single build. Instead of removing the burst heal from the purge or extending the CD on the purge, they reduce the heal by a tiny amount which is going to result in no noticeable power difference, leaving the set as the BIS option for the foreseeable future.

These are just a few of the things that stick out to me, but there are plenty of other examples. At this point, it just feels like zenimax doesn't care whatsoever about the combat balance in ESO.

Are you coming back to streaming, react? You're the only one i like watching.

Bushido2513

Cloudrest wrote: »

Kevin did an amazing job and should be commended for communicating and trying to relay our concerns to the combat team,

Did they though? I mean was it a high bar to clear going from basically saying nothing to saying literally anything?

Of course that's not a bash on any communication but I'm just saying there's perspective to be had here.

Like if I say hey I'm gonna go talk to ZOS for you then I turn around and say hey good news to they got the message but it's not going to change pretty much anything right now stay tuned and keep paying your sub/ playing the game.

Did I really just help you at all?

ForumBully

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Kevin did an amazing job and should be commended for communicating and trying to relay our concerns to the combat team,

Did they though? I mean was it a high bar to clear going from basically saying nothing to saying literally anything?

Of course that's not a bash on any communication but I'm just saying there's perspective to be had here.

Like if I say hey I'm gonna go talk to ZOS for you then I turn around and say hey good news to they got the message but it's not going to change pretty much anything right now stay tuned and keep paying your sub/ playing the game.

Did I really just help you at all?

It's a little "your call is very important to us", but it used to be not even that...so yeah, progress I guess.

Bushido2513

ForumBully wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Kevin did an amazing job and should be commended for communicating and trying to relay our concerns to the combat team,

Did they though? I mean was it a high bar to clear going from basically saying nothing to saying literally anything?

Of course that's not a bash on any communication but I'm just saying there's perspective to be had here.

Like if I say hey I'm gonna go talk to ZOS for you then I turn around and say hey good news to they got the message but it's not going to change pretty much anything right now stay tuned and keep paying your sub/ playing the game.

Did I really just help you at all?

It's a little "your call is very important to us", but it used to be not even that...so yeah, progress I guess.

You're not wrong, sometimes just hearing what we want to hear even if it's not really what we wanted still makes us feel good at least for a while. Only thing is ZOS has played this strategy several times already, almost letters, statements of address to the community, free pets lol 😂

Remathilis

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

- Item sets including:
- Mara's balm
- Dark convergence
- plaguebreak
- hrothgars
- snake in the stars

As an aside; I love how every few months ZoS releases a few PvP sourced sets that everyone playing PvP universally despises and wants deleted from the game. Has there been a single one of these rotw sets that has been lauded as a welcomed improvement to the PvP scene? Heck, has there been one people have found inoffensive?

ForumBully

Remathilis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

- Item sets including:
- Mara's balm
- Dark convergence
- plaguebreak
- hrothgars
- snake in the stars

As an aside; I love how every few months ZoS releases a few PvP sourced sets that everyone playing PvP universally despises and wants deleted from the game. Has there been a single one of these rotw sets that has been lauded as a welcomed improvement to the PvP scene? Heck, has there been one people have found inoffensive?

Based on their usage, they seem loved. I'm sure that's an important metric to the developers

Bushido2513

ForumBully wrote: »

Remathilis wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

- Item sets including:
- Mara's balm
- Dark convergence
- plaguebreak
- hrothgars
- snake in the stars

As an aside; I love how every few months ZoS releases a few PvP sourced sets that everyone playing PvP universally despises and wants deleted from the game. Has there been a single one of these rotw sets that has been lauded as a welcomed improvement to the PvP scene? Heck, has there been one people have found inoffensive?

Based on their usage, they seem loved. I'm sure that's an important metric to the developers

Yeah there's definitely a demand for sets that do the work for you or provide interesting effects based on criteria.

There's also a my vocal section of the player base that will then complain about how many people run the set.

The same things that make these sets so great are what make them problematic. They make the game more accessible for many while alienating others.