There's only one class using one ability that has no effective counterplay

seventyfive

Some of you may already know what ability I'm thinking of. (It's not cloak, I feel there's a fair bit of counterplay to that, coming from a non-nb)

But the title is not entirely true. There is one effective (important quality in this discussion) counter to bolt escape, and that's bolt escape. (Or streak for those of you who usually refer to it by one of the morphs)
This explains why sorcerers may not always see the true power of their tool. They always have the ability that counters it slotted in the relevant environments.

Bolt escape is iconic and a big part of the sorcerer identity. It is the one of the greatest abilities in the game and helps make up for some of the other shortcomings of the class.

I figured the new blood mist was a clever way for the developers to somewhat mitigate the lack of counterplay.
However, blood mist is no counter to bolt escape as the movement it offers is only slightly better than buffed up running, I encourage you to try it out on the pts if you disagree.
And that's fair, it wouldn't be kind to sorcerers to hand out their precious stone to anyone without any compensation.

But IF there was compensation, maybe then this precious stone could be traded for other stones to add to other areas of the kit.
I don't think this will happen and I accept this reality. Players want class identity.

My main point is this:
In order for other parts of the sorcerer kit to receive buffs, there might have to be a tradeoff between class identity (bolt escape) and those other abilities which are portrayed as lackluster.

Aces-High-82

G.A.P.C.L.O.S.E.R.

The_Titan_Tim

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

G.A.P.C.L.O.S.E.R.

Yup. Every class outside of Warden and Necromancer have a reliable gap closer built into their kit, in which case every melee weapon has one built into their weapon skills. Even Sword and Shield has Shield Charge.

Aces-High-82

And before someone comes up with the argument that you get stunned while gapclosing
1. Break free anim is faster than the streak delay
2. stop crying a river and get some immove pots

Ecgberht_confused

Gap closers, ranged abilities, or just fast running are all effectibe counters to streak. Streak fails to disengage about 50% of the time for me, even when double or triple cast.

Sorry but the OP insinuating that cloak is easier countered than streak is just, well, it can't be taken seriously

At this point I literally won't mind if they completely took away streak and gave us proper healing

AdamLAD

Plenty of counters to streak. Immobilisation, stuns, negates, gapclosers, increase cost poisons (streak ramps up on cost so it compounds the problem). Speed stacking, ranged abilities. Kiting with streak is extremely difficult as its so direct around towers and rocks. And since sorcerer already has terrible defence and terrible sustain you will be dead before you can even spam streak more times than not as u will run out of sustain. Most of these people complaining about streak don't even play the class or at minimum at a good level. If you main it, and play it with competitiveness to a good level you will understand that's its no where near as effective as people make it out to be. Stam sorcs and mag sorcs alike I'm certain will agree with my statement

SkaraMinoc

Shield Charge keeps up with Streak fyi. That's how you run down Sorcs on a Bash build.

ForumBully

Ah the argument as old as time; the player who doesn't want to slot a gap closer can't catch the player who does slot one.
Streak is a gap closer, both morphs. It just doesn't need a target, but everyone who doesn't slot a gap closer acts like it's unbeatable

AdamLAD

They don't even need a gap closer. They just need to stack movement speed and they will eventually catch up as the sorc will run out of magicka which will leave them defenceless and Offensively nill

seventyfive

ForumBully wrote: »

Ah the argument as old as time; the player who doesn't want to slot a gap closer can't catch the player who does slot one.
Streak is a gap closer, both morphs. It just doesn't need a target, but everyone who doesn't slot a gap closer acts like it's unbeatable

"just"

You've belittled one of the biggest advantages of this ability to a "just".

Good sorcerers will use their bolt escape well enough to make gapclosers nowhere near as effective as the 4 sorcerers (out of 5 responders) above make them seem. (And 2 of them have posted twice!)

Not needing a target and being less (not saying it's perfect) affected by uneven terrain than the average gapcloser -> use bolt escape on uneven terrain and to get behind small objects. Result: Gapcloser that needs target is rendered useless.

Furthermore bolt escape is fast, faster than most gapclosers (although the 1h/s ability is a good suggestion above, but that is just available for one type of build).

A very important and overlooked aspect of this discussion: bar space. Not needing a target makes bolt escape excellent for all types of movement, offensive as well as defensive. Targetted gap closers are (for most builds) extremely costly to slot because they can only (mostly) be used offensively. That means an extra slot will be taken up in order to come close to the general mobility that bolt escape offers.

Katlefiya

seventyfive wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Ah the argument as old as time; the player who doesn't want to slot a gap closer can't catch the player who does slot one.
Streak is a gap closer, both morphs. It just doesn't need a target, but everyone who doesn't slot a gap closer acts like it's unbeatable

"just"

You've belittled one of the biggest advantages of this ability to a "just".

Good sorcerers will use their bolt escape well enough to make gapclosers nowhere near as effective as the 4 sorcerers (out of 5 responders) above make them seem. (And 2 of them have posted twice!)

Not needing a target and being less (not saying it's perfect) affected by uneven terrain than the average gapcloser -> use bolt escape on uneven terrain and to get behind small objects. Result: Gapcloser that needs target is rendered useless.

Furthermore bolt escape is fast, faster than most gapclosers (although the 1h/s ability is a good suggestion above, but that is just available for one type of build).

A very important and overlooked aspect of this discussion: bar space. Not needing a target makes bolt escape excellent for all types of movement, offensive as well as defensive. Targetted gap closers are (for most builds) extremely costly to slot because they can only (mostly) be used offensively. That means an extra slot will be taken up in order to come close to the general mobility that bolt escape offers.

Are you really arguing about "bar space" with sorc mains? Really?

seventyfive

Are you really arguing about "bar space" with sorc mains? Really?

I suppose I am since no one but sorc mains seem to be interested. I'd happily argue about bar space with anyone interested for that matter - I think all classes are in the same position when it comes to that part.

ForumBully

seventyfive wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Ah the argument as old as time; the player who doesn't want to slot a gap closer can't catch the player who does slot one.
Streak is a gap closer, both morphs. It just doesn't need a target, but everyone who doesn't slot a gap closer acts like it's unbeatable

"just"

You've belittled one of the biggest advantages of this ability to a "just".

Good sorcerers will use their bolt escape well enough to make gapclosers nowhere near as effective as the 4 sorcerers (out of 5 responders) above make them seem. (And 2 of them have posted twice!)

Not needing a target and being less (not saying it's perfect) affected by uneven terrain than the average gapcloser -> use bolt escape on uneven terrain and to get behind small objects. Result: Gapcloser that needs target is rendered useless.

Furthermore bolt escape is fast, faster than most gapclosers (although the 1h/s ability is a good suggestion above, but that is just available for one type of build).

A very important and overlooked aspect of this discussion: bar space. Not needing a target makes bolt escape excellent for all types of movement, offensive as well as defensive. Targetted gap closers are (for most builds) extremely costly to slot because they can only (mostly) be used offensively. That means an extra slot will be taken up in order to come close to the general mobility that bolt escape offers.

Yeah, bar space is rough. Sorcs can relate. We all make choices.

sharquez

It just doesn't seem like a friendly environment for a healthy debate to me. Came in kind of hot and talking down to anyone who'd want to engage. If you spoke plainly about what it was you wanted to discuss instead of starting of with twisted words and mind games from the start maybe people would want to have the discussion? Just my .02$.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Wow this particular skill has been nerfed to the ground already. I don't understand, do people want it to become like some sort of electric fireworks to make it "balanced"?

ForumBully

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow this particular skill has been nerfed to the ground already. I don't understand, do people want it to become like some sort of electric fireworks to make it "balanced"?

People want classes to feel unique while making sure no one has something they don't.

seventyfive

sharquez wrote: »

It just doesn't seem like a friendly environment for a healthy debate to me. Came in kind of hot and talking down to anyone who'd want to engage. If you spoke plainly about what it was you wanted to discuss instead of starting of with twisted words and mind games from the start maybe people would want to have the discussion? Just my .02$.

I would happily take down the discussion a notch in heat level.

Unfortunately it's generally very hard to argue against norms (such as sorcerer being inferior to other classes, which has become a norm recently). Rhetorics is my way of trying to even the playing field but perhaps it's just a poor old habit.

To be clear, I don't think sorcerer is at all overtuned and never did I claim it was. I'm highlighting a very strong part of the class admist other discussions heavily emphasizing its drawbacks. Balancing things out in other words.

Caribou77

OP do you play Magsorc a fair amount in pvp? Or mainly against them? Genuinely curious.

katorga

Lots of classes, but not all, have instant, unblockable, undodgeable stuns.

Next patch every class gets the movement function of streak/ball of lightning.

Streak and morphs as an escape tool are only good if you don't get chased or you start running well outside of gap closer range. If you are chased, you get gap closed down. A NB moving at 145% movement speed, or faster, plus class gap closer makes streak a waste of mana...I just eat sorcs alive once they start wasting their resources on streak.

Offensively, a CC with no counter is unbalanced only to the extent that half the classes do not have access to similar capability.

seventyfive

Caribou77 wrote: »

OP do you play Magsorc a fair amount in pvp? Or mainly against them? Genuinely curious.

You might already know the answer but I mainly play against them.
Some perform poorly, others amazingly. A good variety.

I also mainly play battlegrounds, not so much cyrodiil. Some of the things I say may therefor be more relevant in bgs.

Billium813

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Shield Charge keeps up with Streak fyi. That's how you run down Sorcs on a Bash build.

I literally do this all the time. I actually prefer Shielded Assault to Templars Toppling Charge. That shield at the end is invaluable if they try to turn and fight. The off balance isn't that important.

ForumBully

seventyfive wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

OP do you play Magsorc a fair amount in pvp? Or mainly against them? Genuinely curious.

You might already know the answer but I mainly play against them.
Some perform poorly, others amazingly. A good variety.

I also mainly play battlegrounds, not so much cyrodiil. Some of the things I say may therefor be more relevant in bgs.

If you don't play the class and know how difficult it is to work with the toolkit, I don't know how you can comment on what needs adjusting and what doesn't.

Chilly-McFreeze

The issue isn't that you mainly play Battlegrounds. Point is that you said you "mainly play against them", whatever "mainly" means in that. People take issue in one sided opinions when it comes to class balance. So of course some will point that out when you don't play class X on an higher level. Because only then some issues become obvious.

But yes, most commentators already guest it when you said Bolt Escape is less effected by uneven terrain.

On a side note it comes across kinda strange when you freely state you want to even the "norm" out about a class that's left in the gutter for years. Don't even know what you're trying to archieve. Gut it even further?

E: just saw your other thread. could have saved me the time to answer.

ForumBully

Bolt Escape is arguably one of the best of a bunch of bad options when it comes to gap closers, and even it bugs out.
I'd like to see suggestions to make other gap closers or skills better rather than requests to nerf one you don't like.

ZOS_Kevin

At the request of the OP, we are going to close this thread.

ZOS_Volpe

We also went ahead and removed some back and forth from this thread. Going forward, this is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.