Feedback regarding response by the dev team and their apparent vision(?) of Sorcerer

Aces-High-82 · February 2023

Zabagad wrote: »

axi wrote: »

It's not even a measure of what classes are people playing the most since it's limited to 100 people per alliance. Only information it provides is what classes are people playing the most among top 100 AP gains among all allliances for people who have said campaign marked as home one. Pretty unreliable data source to make any statements serving more as a confirmation bias rather than any data to work with.

Sorry at the beginning - 1) for derailing and 2) I'm not an english native speaker - I hope you can understand my points.

1) It's not "limited to 100 people per alliance" - It's limited to 100 ppl per campaign
I did this for Top100 per alliance before and the results were so close, that I desided not to do this extra effort any longer.
With the Top100 per alliance you get in some campaigns, sometimes some players with less then 50K and I don't want these ppl count as "regulars". I try to see what class the ppl play, which spent a lot of time in cyro and not the Tier1-3 or a bit more ppl.

2) There is a lot of variance in the monthly results and sure there are a lot of factors which could change the results a bit.
But your example "no home campaign" should not have any significant change of the counts, because
a) I believe there are not many "regular" players playing so much outside of their home campaign to reach the Top100 if they were counted.
So the numbers are small compared to the ppl which play a lot and play in their home campaign.
b) Even if there would be a lot playing in the "not my home" campaign - I have no reasons to belive that their distribution would differ compared to the distributation I count. For example: Why should more sorcs play outside of their home campaign then DKs?

3) "confirmation bias"
I have a clear rule, which ppl I count.
I have no reason to believe, that the distribution shouldn't be even (and it was much more even in the past) - except warden/necro ofc.
I see no reason to believe, that there is one class in favour to reach the top100 more then the others. (maybe it would so, if one had better passives at siege play or something like that) Do you see any reason?
From my point of view, it is a fair sample from the population of the regular cyro players.
And over 5 month the samplesize is now big enough. There was no month where the order was not DK/NB > Temp/Sorc, but you can easily find one campaign for one month where the order is not like that.
So the samplesize was very important - otherwise you could make biased pictures

And as already said - I don't see good reasons why other taken samples (however they would be defined) should differ much.

I cannot say anything about class performance - maybe NB is just more fun to play?
I cannot say anything about a special campaign because I don't count all players.
I cannot say anything about consoles.
I can't say anything about duel/bg because I don't get any data. Maybe the samples from these groups would differ strongly to the Cyro distribution - that is quite possible.
I can only say something about "people which played a lot in PC CP-Cyro in the last 5 month"

But sure you can still think it's not an accurate measure and the data are unreliable, but it's the best I could find and I see no better way to get information about which class is played by "regulars" the most.
If you know something better - please let me know.

I tell you why I continue to play sorc. Multiple Negates are a good tool to shut down ball group hot stacking partially for a brief time and streak works well as a aoe stun against them.

axi · February 2023

Pelanora wrote: »

2018, people. 2018. 5 years later, same discussion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437928/looking-for-table-that-shows-all-major-minor-buffs-each-class-has-access-to

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just in case anyone needed a reference that demonstrates why NBs are on top and sorcs are simply an outdated class in the current meta...

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

2018, people. 2018. 5 years later, same discussion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437928/looking-for-table-that-shows-all-major-minor-buffs-each-class-has-access-to

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just in case anyone needed a reference that demonstrates why NBs are on top and sorcs are simply an outdated class in the current meta...

Very telling, that's insane that it's been 5 years of power creep and reworks to the entire game and sorcerer still can't catch a break and get an update.
for reference, here's the table from that 2018 thread

It's intentional design. Quote from few days ago:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

axi wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

2018, people. 2018. 5 years later, same discussion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437928/looking-for-table-that-shows-all-major-minor-buffs-each-class-has-access-to

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just in case anyone needed a reference that demonstrates why NBs are on top and sorcs are simply an outdated class in the current meta...

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

2018, people. 2018. 5 years later, same discussion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437928/looking-for-table-that-shows-all-major-minor-buffs-each-class-has-access-to

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just in case anyone needed a reference that demonstrates why NBs are on top and sorcs are simply an outdated class in the current meta...

Very telling, that's insane that it's been 5 years of power creep and reworks to the entire game and sorcerer still can't catch a break and get an update.
for reference, here's the table from that 2018 thread

It's intentional design. Quote from few days ago:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.

re-read my original post, it goes over why this "intentional design" is no longer appropriate for the class. Especially when it comes to common buffs/debuffs that are supposed to be standard on every class.

Also, intentional design can (and is often) wrong in many cases and besides, everything should always be regularly reviewed and made sure that it is still appropriate for its current state. This is not just applicable to games, but all throughout business and society as well, it's just good practice and prevents things from being left in the past and becoming irrelevant.

AdamLAD · February 2023

The problem I do not like is the fact if your playing in an environment in which no one is providing these other buffs to Sorcerers we are immediately at a disadvantage in comparison to other classes. If your playing solo in PvP or in a group and no one else is providing these buffs, your immediately just straight up weaker due to them wanting other classes to provide the buffs for you.

jaws343 · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

At least for pvp, you are handicapping yourself playing anything other than NB or DK.

To back up this statement a bit with numbers:
I've been evaluating the top 100 from the CP 30-day campaigns on EU and NA for the last 5 months.

NB 457
DK 406
Templar 347
Sorc 327
Warden 283 (still not free to play)
Necro 180
(4 campaigns per month * 5 months * 100 = 2000)

?? Can't take earned AP as a measure of class performance.

I agree, this is a pretty poor measure of class performance, but what it is, is a measure of what classes people are playing on the most. Which is clearly NB and DK by a significant margin. That is an indication that those classes might be overperforming in that play mode, and that is, in fact, the case. DK and NB, are overperforming by a large margin. But what this doesn't capture is the overperformance of Warden in PVP because it is paywalled, and because it is paywalled, fewer people overall play it.

It's not even a measure of what classes are people playing the most since it's limited to 100 people per alliance. Only information it provides is what classes are people playing the most among top 100 AP gains among all allliances for people who have said campaign marked as home one. Pretty unreliable data source to make any statements serving more as a confirmation bias rather than any data to work with.

It's about as reliable of information as basing all balancing on the results of single target trial dummy parses and spreadsheets, in fact its even more reliable than that because it takes into account actual content being played under actual in game conditions.

Any reliable data source saying that dummy parses are base for balance changes?

Zos claims that sorcerer is fine and not in need of any buffs/fixes. The only place a sorcerer performs even remotely close to the other classes is when parsing on a single trial dummy.

Not that hard to put 2 and 2 together and see that this is very likely how the testing for balancing is being done.

Unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, this is the only logical conclusion for their responses regarding the sorcerer class and where they think the class is at.

Also note that parsing on a trial dummy doesn't require any sustain or defensive options (see heals/mitigation), so once again, sorcerer seems plenty fine when balancing the class based on single target trial dummy parses since it doesn't have to use its healing and it doesn't need to cleave down multiple targets at the same time (required for most end game content) and as such it looks perfectly balanced in that 1 niche scenario.

Dummy parsing was also directly mentioned last year by Devs when discussing the light attack and dot damage changes and their impact.

jaws343 · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

The problem I do not like is the fact if your playing in an environment in which no one is providing these other buffs to Sorcerers we are immediately at a disadvantage in comparison to other classes. If your playing solo in PvP or in a group and no one else is providing these buffs, your immediately just straight up weaker due to them wanting other classes to provide the buffs for you.

I think it also hurts sorcerer much more too. In order to get these important buffs, we have to run sets to do so, while everyone else is running sets that add to their regen or weapon/spell damage. Couple that with the mag sorc need to run max mag to make use of shields and there are zero sets that provide any of these buffs while also providing the damage and shield strength even remotely necessary to compete.

You could go and waste skill slots for these buffs from outside of the class. But there is nearly nothing a sorc can just lose on their bar without severely harming their ability to actually do damage or survive.

katorga · February 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

At least for pvp, you are handicapping yourself playing anything other than NB or DK.

To back up this statement a bit with numbers:
I've been evaluating the top 100 from the CP 30-day campaigns on EU and NA for the last 5 months.

NB 457
DK 406
Templar 347
Sorc 327
Warden 283 (still not free to play)
Necro 180
(4 campaigns per month * 5 months * 100 = 2000)

?? Can't take earned AP as a measure of class performance.

I agree, this is a pretty poor measure of class performance, but what it is, is a measure of what classes people are playing on the most. Which is clearly NB and DK by a significant margin. That is an indication that those classes might be overperforming in that play mode, and that is, in fact, the case. DK and NB, are overperforming by a large margin. But what this doesn't capture is the overperformance of Warden in PVP because it is paywalled, and because it is paywalled, fewer people overall play it.

It's not even a measure of what classes are people playing the most since it's limited to 100 people per alliance. Only information it provides is what classes are people playing the most among top 100 AP gains among all allliances for people who have said campaign marked as home one. Pretty unreliable data source to make any statements serving more as a confirmation bias rather than any data to work with.

It's about as reliable of information as basing all balancing on the results of single target trial dummy parses and spreadsheets, in fact its even more reliable than that because it takes into account actual content being played under actual in game conditions.

Any reliable data source saying that dummy parses are base for balance changes?

Zos claims that sorcerer is fine and not in need of any buffs/fixes. The only place a sorcerer performs even remotely close to the other classes is when parsing on a single trial dummy.

Not that hard to put 2 and 2 together and see that this is very likely how the testing for balancing is being done.

Unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, this is the only logical conclusion for their responses regarding the sorcerer class and where they think the class is at.

Also note that parsing on a trial dummy doesn't require any sustain or defensive options (see heals/mitigation), so once again, sorcerer seems plenty fine when balancing the class based on single target trial dummy parses since it doesn't have to use its healing and it doesn't need to cleave down multiple targets at the same time (required for most end game content) and as such it looks perfectly balanced in that 1 niche scenario.

Dummy parsing was also directly mentioned last year by Devs when discussing the light attack and dot damage changes and their impact.

I think the Necro class was designed entirely based on dummy parses. How else could you end up with the siphon corpse mechanic which is only functional in no-movement fights?

Basic requirements for sorc to catch up:

A real burst heal - I would convert the regen morph of Ward to a burst heal instead of a damage shield. There are plenty of examples where one morph is a completely different skills from the other (Dark Cloak vs Shadowy Disquise). imo, they need to remove active damage shields as a playstyle, and make them passive secondary effects on primary skills (more like DK); ZOS has a seems to think damage shields are more powerful than they are, and it ends up punishing the class in every other area. I bet if ZOS looked at the metrics they would find Sorc wards are almost never used in PVE, and only in PVP by specific mag builds with no better options.

The group healing morph of crit surge needs to become a standard hot, not tied to dealing critical damage.

Better class regen: Replace some cost reduction passives with flat resource return. Rebate, for example is 300 (!) mag or stam on a rarish proc condition. It needs to be 600 more of both resources to bring it into alignment with other classes.

Dark Deal and morphs need to lose the cast time.

Rune cage needs to lose its "short delay" and function like Templar javelin. The rune cage nerf from years ago makes no sense since ZOS added instant, unblockable, ranged CC to Templar.

jaws343 · February 2023

katorga wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

At least for pvp, you are handicapping yourself playing anything other than NB or DK.

To back up this statement a bit with numbers:
I've been evaluating the top 100 from the CP 30-day campaigns on EU and NA for the last 5 months.

NB 457
DK 406
Templar 347
Sorc 327
Warden 283 (still not free to play)
Necro 180
(4 campaigns per month * 5 months * 100 = 2000)

?? Can't take earned AP as a measure of class performance.

I agree, this is a pretty poor measure of class performance, but what it is, is a measure of what classes people are playing on the most. Which is clearly NB and DK by a significant margin. That is an indication that those classes might be overperforming in that play mode, and that is, in fact, the case. DK and NB, are overperforming by a large margin. But what this doesn't capture is the overperformance of Warden in PVP because it is paywalled, and because it is paywalled, fewer people overall play it.

It's not even a measure of what classes are people playing the most since it's limited to 100 people per alliance. Only information it provides is what classes are people playing the most among top 100 AP gains among all allliances for people who have said campaign marked as home one. Pretty unreliable data source to make any statements serving more as a confirmation bias rather than any data to work with.

It's about as reliable of information as basing all balancing on the results of single target trial dummy parses and spreadsheets, in fact its even more reliable than that because it takes into account actual content being played under actual in game conditions.

Any reliable data source saying that dummy parses are base for balance changes?

Zos claims that sorcerer is fine and not in need of any buffs/fixes. The only place a sorcerer performs even remotely close to the other classes is when parsing on a single trial dummy.

Not that hard to put 2 and 2 together and see that this is very likely how the testing for balancing is being done.

Unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, this is the only logical conclusion for their responses regarding the sorcerer class and where they think the class is at.

Also note that parsing on a trial dummy doesn't require any sustain or defensive options (see heals/mitigation), so once again, sorcerer seems plenty fine when balancing the class based on single target trial dummy parses since it doesn't have to use its healing and it doesn't need to cleave down multiple targets at the same time (required for most end game content) and as such it looks perfectly balanced in that 1 niche scenario.

Dummy parsing was also directly mentioned last year by Devs when discussing the light attack and dot damage changes and their impact.

imo, they need to remove active damage shields as a playstyle, and make them passive secondary effects on primary skills (more like DK); ZOS has a seems to think damage shields are more powerful than they are, and it ends up punishing the class in every other area.

I actually like this idea a lot. Give sorcs a beefier version of the Psijic passive shield that appears while blocking. But make it active off block rather than only up while blocking and give it the same type of scaling and duration it has now, with a "recharge" cooldown for that duration.

That way, you hit block, you active the shield. You have the shield for 6 seconds or until it is broken, but if it is broken early, it won't reappear if you block before the 6 seconds is up.

Stx · February 2023

Charts like this can be misleading though. For instance it lists Nightblades as having access to major berserk. But that comes from a skill that procs it after getting a kill, a skill that is basically never used. Just because a class has a lot of minor and major buffs doesn’t necessarily mean they actually have them if the skill they are tied to is bad. Like Ambush, this skill has always been clunky to use and very hard to fit into a build, but it provides empower, minor berserk, and minor vulnerability, which sounds great but it’s still not worth using.

At the end of the day I don’t think it’s super important that Sorcerers get a bunch of minor and major buffs, but they should have a well rounded kit that can compete.

The main issue is still that certain classes currently have no weaknesses.

Auldwulfe · February 2023

I've deleted all my sorcerers but one, and only because he has all my crafting research and motifs ......there is no point in bothering with the class anymore.

Auldwulfe

Pelanora · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

2018, people. 2018. 5 years later, same discussion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437928/looking-for-table-that-shows-all-major-minor-buffs-each-class-has-access-to

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just in case anyone needed a reference that demonstrates why NBs are on top and sorcs are simply an outdated class in the current meta...

Very telling, that's insane that it's been 5 years of power creep and reworks to the entire game and sorcerer still can't catch a break and get an update.
for reference, here's the table from that 2018 thread

I just wonder at the decision re sorc, at its obviously an old one. It was made circa 2017, as we can see it's original line up and the years of power creep and reworks, as you've said, and 2023 sorc largely as it was in 2018.

Why are they hanging on to that decision so strongly.
Why are they hanging onto a design choice in the face of customer opposition.

That's like Ford doubling down on the edsel, or the various Apple design flaws going unchanged....tbh apple does take a while lol. But not five years.

Pelanora · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

2018, people. 2018. 5 years later, same discussion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437928/looking-for-table-that-shows-all-major-minor-buffs-each-class-has-access-to

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just in case anyone needed a reference that demonstrates why NBs are on top and sorcs are simply an outdated class in the current meta...

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

2018, people. 2018. 5 years later, same discussion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437928/looking-for-table-that-shows-all-major-minor-buffs-each-class-has-access-to

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Just in case anyone needed a reference that demonstrates why NBs are on top and sorcs are simply an outdated class in the current meta...

Very telling, that's insane that it's been 5 years of power creep and reworks to the entire game and sorcerer still can't catch a break and get an update.
for reference, here's the table from that 2018 thread

It's intentional design. Quote from few days ago:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.

re-read my original post, it goes over why this "intentional design" is no longer appropriate for the class. Especially when it comes to common buffs/debuffs that are supposed to be standard on every class.

Also, intentional design can (and is often) wrong in many cases and besides, everything should always be regularly reviewed and made sure that it is still appropriate for its current state. This is not just applicable to games, but all throughout business and society as well, it's just good practice and prevents things from being left in the past and becoming irrelevant.

Yea we know they mean it, well now we do, but why they have left sorc out of the last five years of game wide changes, for want of a better phrase, is what we are wondering.

Or another way of looking at it, why is dk/nb having one design approach (the Oprah design- everyone gets one!) and sorc another (the oliver twist design- you want MORE?????, or perhaps Romans- suffering shows zos love and makes character haha ha ha ha ha ha ha cry).

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

Stx wrote: »

Charts like this can be misleading though. For instance it lists Nightblades as having access to major berserk. But that comes from a skill that procs it after getting a kill, a skill that is basically never used. Just because a class has a lot of minor and major buffs doesn’t necessarily mean they actually have them if the skill they are tied to is bad. Like Ambush, this skill has always been clunky to use and very hard to fit into a build, but it provides empower, minor berserk, and minor vulnerability, which sounds great but it’s still not worth using.

At the end of the day I don’t think it’s super important that Sorcerers get a bunch of minor and major buffs, but they should have a well rounded kit that can compete.

The main issue is still that certain classes currently have no weaknesses.

That's fair, but technically speaking, we could say the same about sorcerers:
- major berserk (requires an ally to activate the synergy that goes to the "closest 8 allies") so even in group settings not reliable to go to the sorc that summoned it and completely non-existent for solo play.
- major/minor expedition where sorc is forced to choose between the 2 buffs while NB gets both for free as additional utility on already very strong skills.
- major mending tied to an AoE soft CC (immobilize) that messes up tanks in pve, doesn't do any damage and doesn't do enough in pvp to warrant any use.
- silence, on a reasonably high cost ultimate that the encounters team has made sure that the important enemies you want it for in pve are immune to it and in PvP enemies just walk out of it, avoid it or use their stamina abilities that are completely unaffected by it.

I agree, I don't think the class needs much, that's why all I ask for the class is a reliable burst heal that gives an alternative to the outdated shield playstyle, access to major prophecy/savagery to help tie the class HoT to the kit better and a tidy up of the outdated/clunky passives/mechanics that haven't been looked at since before that chart was made.

Stx · February 2023

Yeah major berserk on ult I think it’s great group utility, but it is losing its effectiveness now that wrecking blow has it as a spammable. It will still be useful just not as much.

There are a number of abilities for sorcerer I have never really used and would probably rework lol. Most of the dark magic line actually.

I guess what I meant to say is that as long as a class brings useful utility to a group and can perform on the charts, the total amount of buffs they have doesn’t really matter. Although you would except the mage type class to have a lot of access to magical buffs lol.

Bushido2513 · February 2023

Stx wrote: »

Although you would except the mage type class to have a lot of access to magical buffs lol.

This made me chuckle!

i11ionward · February 2023

Stx wrote: »

There are a number of abilities for sorcerer I have never really used and would probably rework lol. Most of the dark magic line actually

Maybe the ZOS didn't make serious ups this quarter, so that in the next update they will rework the lines of dark magic? That would be cool, since at the moment we have at least 2 useless skills in this line. Oh, dreams, dreams....

katorga · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Charts like this can be misleading though. For instance it lists Nightblades as having access to major berserk. But that comes from a skill that procs it after getting a kill, a skill that is basically never used. Just because a class has a lot of minor and major buffs doesn’t necessarily mean they actually have them if the skill they are tied to is bad. Like Ambush, this skill has always been clunky to use and very hard to fit into a build, but it provides empower, minor berserk, and minor vulnerability, which sounds great but it’s still not worth using.

At the end of the day I don’t think it’s super important that Sorcerers get a bunch of minor and major buffs, but they should have a well rounded kit that can compete.

The main issue is still that certain classes currently have no weaknesses.

That's fair, but technically speaking, we could say the same about sorcerers:
- major berserk (requires an ally to activate the synergy that goes to the "closest 8 allies") so even in group settings not reliable to go to the sorc that summoned it and completely non-existent for solo play.
- major/minor expedition where sorc is forced to choose between the 2 buffs while NB gets both for free as additional utility on already very strong skills.
- major mending tied to an AoE soft CC (immobilize) that messes up tanks in pve, doesn't do any damage and doesn't do enough in pvp to warrant any use.
- silence, on a reasonably high cost ultimate that the encounters team has made sure that the important enemies you want it for in pve are immune to it and in PvP enemies just walk out of it, avoid it or use their stamina abilities that are completely unaffected by it.

I agree, I don't think the class needs much, that's why all I ask for the class is a reliable burst heal that gives an alternative to the outdated shield playstyle, access to major prophecy/savagery to help tie the class HoT to the kit better and a tidy up of the outdated/clunky passives/mechanics that haven't been looked at since before that chart was made.

I chuckled when the devs mentioned "but they have silence", which doesn't even WORK in pve, and with hybridization is sort of pointless in pvp.

Pinja · February 2023

Plenty of well highlighted points in the original post.

From a Pvp Stam sorc perspective, we've been taking a multitude of nerfs after a quickly dissolved buff in the High isle chapter. Bound armaments took a hit, crystal weapon got nerfed, and with the light and heavy attack changes I find that I can't sustain offensive pressure a lot. Melee sorc required skill to play weaving attacks that would often end up as lost globals as enemies changed position. I actually didn't like using crystal weapon on melee sorc as it takes positioning in someones face with a cast that does nothing until the next global, since weaving entails casting the light attack before the ability not vice versa.
As I played it I would apply some of the best DoTs I could then play distance back and forth until I seen an opportunity to execute and finish. Unfortunate thing is that only works on opponents that don't pay attention to their health. Since burst heals can be spammed for a far greater tool tip then my DoT's. When I heal, I reposition which provides time to heal for both me and my enemy since dark deal takes twice as long to heal as you've pointed out. Loosing out on a lot of Pks.

KingLewie_III · February 2023

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

So why do they keep buffing NB, Warden and DK ? IF templar, sorcerer and necro are what they envisaged for balance per class then why on EARTH do they keep buffing classes that are just simply better ?

Warden dps in pve is the lowest currently so that's pretty misleading. All classes need buffs and nerfs in necessary areas not just 2 or 3.

DPS is a moot point when every class is capable of hitting north of 100k on the trial dummy. Someone is always going to be the lowest, but they're at least in the same ballpark. When you look at other aspects of the game, like PVP, this isn't the case, and is evident by 60% of Cyrodiil playing Dragonknight, which also happens to be the go-to for anything that isn't a healer in PVE.

Brrrofski · February 2023

Honestly, for me it's not just buffs and debuffs.

Lack of burst heal and a number of useless passives are my biggest gripe.

The passives especially. Depending how you play in PvP, you can ignore like 40% of your passives.

Pelanora · November 2023

Well, it's December 2023, near enough, and the year of the Arcanist...... and will the ten year anniversary year be a year when non pet sorc is finally looked at, as per OP, and how the weighing of choices looks for sorc against what they are happy to provide arcanist (and dk)....

How will they breathe new life into sorc for another run....2024 to 2034.....

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

@Pelanora, if non-pet Sorcerer was to get love, it would have been in the Storm Calling set, and they completely blew that perfect opportunity.

Never has it been more apparent that Sorcerer’s are tied to pets, as 2023.

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

Our Storm Calling set literally spawns “pet” conduits, you can’t even make this stuff up.

Turtle_Bot · November 2023

@ZOS_Kevin Any chance of getting some communication on this topic, that is still just as relevant now as it was when the thread was created.

It's been almost a year now and there's been no further response on the state of sorcerer (especially no-pet sorcerer) from ZOS and the clear, glaring and obvious issues that playstyle faces that is holding it very far behind (upwards of 20%+) every other class (even necro).

Turtle_Bot · November 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Our Storm Calling set literally spawns “pet” conduits, you can’t even make this stuff up.

Not going to go into detail on that "set" as there are countless threads and posts/comments that provide the hard data about that set on the forums (including on the official feedback thread for the class sets), but yes, that set being left as it was design wise, felt like the biggest middle finger to sorc players (and no-pet sorcs especially) in recent memory, especially considering how many other sets had massive reworks if not completely redone entirely.

Only thing worse that I can think of, is when they deleted overloads third bar (essentially deleting 1/3 of sorcs bar space) for apparently no reason and gave nothing to sorc to make up for that one...