Major Berserk Should Not Be on Chains at All

Wuuffyy

I’m going to preface this by saying I’ve played all classes, in PVP, proficiently for years now.

DK is currently non-arguably over performing in PvE right now regardless as you frequently have 8 or so DKs per comped team now (this means it is considerably more efficient than the next best class). It needs absolutely no buffs here, possibly some QoL, but not direct damage buffs of any kind.

I absolutely could agree that you could honestly place Major berserk for 4 seconds on any underutilized DK ability and it may be fine all together.

However,

You should not place any iteration for Major berserk on chains.

This is what I see can be done with chains now that it is considered highly efficient, that causes DKs to become even more of a substantial issue for low effort; even compared to now:

-Chains is unblockable/undodgeable
-Chains can be spammed to proc whip (comparable to flames).
-Gives major expedition for 4 seconds (this is quite literally removing the only weakness DK has remaining, which is limited mobility skills)
-Is a gap closer (refer to above; can now proc toxic sets such as Rush of Agony, Unleashed Terror (bleed debuff), etc.
-Procs a snare from passives (this is in addition to the unpurgable snare associated with gap closers in general)

As it stands, again, despite being one of the-if not the strongest class in the game right now for general purpose; DK could easily have Major berserk for 4 seconds and it *might* be okay. However…

MAJOR BERSERK SHOULD NOT BE ON THIS ABILITY.

gariondavey

Agreed. A single target dot was all they should have added or an aoe ground dot if they wanted it used more.

acastanza_ESO

The fact that they still aren't walking this back is absolutely insane.

WrathOfInnos

gariondavey wrote: »

Agreed. A single target dot was all they should have added or an aoe ground dot if they wanted it used more.

Maybe if it got something decent like a DoT. IMO Chains needs to be better than Stampede or it will never see use. In general class skills should always outperform generic ones for this reason, otherwise every class just uses the generic option and they all play the same.

The devs chose Major Berserk to make chains stand out from other gap closers. That seems like a fine option to me, but a DoT or another buff could be fitting as well.

It seems like many players are just saying "DK is too strong, make this morph so weak that nobody will use it". I disagree with that sentiment. Players want the 5 classes they don't play be weak. That type of thinking is why ESO becomes less fun every year.

Wuuffyy

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Agreed. A single target dot was all they should have added or an aoe ground dot if they wanted it used more.

Maybe if it got something decent like a DoT. IMO Chains needs to be better than Stampede or it will never see use. In general class skills should always outperform generic ones for this reason, otherwise every class just uses the generic option and they all play the same.

The devs chose Major Berserk to make chains stand out from other gap closers. That seems like a fine option to me, but a DoT or another buff could be fitting as well.

It seems like many players are just saying "DK is too strong, make this morph so weak that nobody will use it". I disagree with that sentiment. Players want the 5 classes they don't play be weak. That type of thinking is why ESO becomes less fun every year.

Right. Except everyone in this thread is advocating, currently, for the skill to still be buffed however not include Major berserk. A dot/minor berserk or both would be more than enough. I find it crazy how everyone on these forums assumes that someone only plays one class with they discuss poor balancing on another.

Panderbander

Honestly yeah, just apply a dot on application. Heck, make it proc burning so they can get some magicka back, but please... no major berserk.

flizomica

For one, I really like the idea behind buffing/changing underutilized class skills. I'd definitely like to see more of this in the future.

I do agree that putting major berserk on chains is very weird, considering DK DPS is already really strong. If I were to change this skill, I'd make it something that would replace a weapon DoT (running the same weapon DoTs on all classes is really lame, pls give more class identity) or make it something PvE tanks or healers would want to use to support the group.

UnassumingNoob

Absolutely ridiculous they get this and templars get nothing. The class has no damage. I reiterate… Ridiculous.

WrathOfInnos

Wuuffyy wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Agreed. A single target dot was all they should have added or an aoe ground dot if they wanted it used more.

Maybe if it got something decent like a DoT. IMO Chains needs to be better than Stampede or it will never see use. In general class skills should always outperform generic ones for this reason, otherwise every class just uses the generic option and they all play the same.

The devs chose Major Berserk to make chains stand out from other gap closers. That seems like a fine option to me, but a DoT or another buff could be fitting as well.

It seems like many players are just saying "DK is too strong, make this morph so weak that nobody will use it". I disagree with that sentiment. Players want the 5 classes they don't play be weak. That type of thinking is why ESO becomes less fun every year.

Right. Except everyone in this thread is advocating, currently, for the skill to still be buffed however not include Major berserk. A dot/minor berserk or both would be more than enough. I find it crazy how everyone on these forums assumes that someone only plays one class with they discuss poor balancing on another.

Forgive me if I'm projecting others onto you. Many players that were demanding chains nerfs last week had clearly never played DK. There were rants about new chains being free to cast against CC immune opponents, meaning they did not even know it was a gap closer, much less that the cost was high and unavoidable. They don't test anything, don't know the class at all, and have no idea what Major Berserk actually does to damage (not 10%). They should not be commenting on balance changes, yet somehow convinced the devs to walk this one back.

Again, going a different direction with chains could be reasonable, but keeping it an entirely useless morph because of DK envy/fear is not acceptable.

Dr_Con

going to agree with many points here, but in your original post you describe some elements to a pull when the chains getting buffed is the gap closer, not the pull.

major berserk shouldn't be on chains or on devastating/wrecking blow

MEBengalsFan2001

Dr_Con wrote: »

going to agree with many points here, but in your original post you describe some elements to a pull when the chains getting buffed is the gap closer, not the pull.

major berserk shouldn't be on chains or on devastating/wrecking blow

Major berserk should be given only after using a ultimate such as Templar Empowering Sweep. I would rename it to Berserking Sweep and just add major Berserk to it.

Chains should if anything should proc burning on the target along with a DoT.

Billium813

I'm fine with ZOS trying to prop up underused skills. I think the issue is that all classes have underused skills and it feels unfair that they are focusing on DK only with this patch (arguably the strongest DPS and PvP class). In the future, I think they should only tackle these issues on a more even distribution. Why not pick 1 skill from all 6 classes? I think most non-DK players are just feeling left out.

gariondavey

Yes, buffing or reworking underused skills is a great idea.
Major berserk on chains isn't though.
Single target dot or aoe ground dot, add in some burning or poisoned, and you'd be gucci

master_vanargand

I think "Chains is unblockable/undodgeable" should be removed.

olsborg

Wuuffyy wrote: »

MAJOR BERSERK SHOULD NOT BE ON THIS ABILITY.

Wholeheartedly agree, moreover, I think major berserk being such a strong buff...should only ever be available on an ultimate like Storm Atronach synergy or with a very tough path to procc it, like killing someone while the nb has mark on the victim. Not on a spammable gapcloser.

VaranisArano

The Devs slapped a buff on that chains morph because in U35 they made its namesake buff Empower completely useless in PVP and now are taking six months to roll out something useful (but not necessarily balanced.)

Frankly, I'm not convinced this change is any more thought out than the original nerf was, and I play MagDK. If it goes live, I expect that it'll get more tweaks and nerfs as the Devs try to figure out just how to fix what they messed up in U35.

No, I'm not a bitter DK. Okay, maybe I am.

axi

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I’m going to preface this by saying I’ve played all classes, in PVP, proficiently for years now.

DK is currently non-arguably over performing in PvE right now regardless as you frequently have 8 or so DKs per comped team now (this means it is considerably more efficient than the next best class). It needs absolutely no buffs here, possibly some QoL, but not direct damage buffs of any kind.

I absolutely could agree that you could honestly place Major berserk for 4 seconds on any underutilized DK ability and it may be fine all together.

However,

You should not place any iteration for Major berserk on chains.

This is what I see can be done with chains now that it is considered highly efficient, that causes DKs to become even more of a substantial issue for low effort; even compared to now:

-Chains is unblockable/undodgeable
-Chains can be spammed to proc whip (comparable to flames).
-Gives major expedition for 4 seconds (this is quite literally removing the only weakness DK has remaining, which is limited mobility skills)
-Is a gap closer (refer to above; can now proc toxic sets such as Rush of Agony, Unleashed Terror (bleed debuff), etc.
-Procs a snare from passives (this is in addition to the unpurgable snare associated with gap closers in general)

As it stands, again, despite being one of the-if not the strongest class in the game right now for general purpose; DK could easily have Major berserk for 4 seconds and it *might* be okay. However…

MAJOR BERSERK SHOULD NOT BE ON THIS ABILITY.

With 4 seconds duration of major berserk nobody will use it in PvP anyway and PvE usage is also questionable. PvP wise even 10 seconds was questionable because it's more beneficial to stick to sea serpent coil which already provides major berserk plus major courage and slot new mist form for mobility and passive bonuses (major expedition, major evasion, projectile absorption and 300 wep/spell dmg).

Chains are the worst gap closer in the game when it comes to closing the gap. They are slow, cluncky and unreliable. This is a reason barely any DK has ever used them and rather preffered to slot other gap closer or run without it. 10 seconds of major berserk was a value that could potentially lure some people into using them but 4 seconds is simply not enough considering ability itself have high cost, low dmg and is super cluncky

Also in response to all Your mentioned chains benefits

-gap closing morph of chains is blockable
-spamming gap closing morph of chains to stack whip is a loss of dmg and resources compared to fiery breath of FoO
-4 seconds of major expedition on it's own hardly solves DK mobility issues which is why nobody uses chains atm
-if You want to run with sets that proc of gap closers than slotting most unreliable gap closer in the game is not the best idea
-there is no longer "unpurgable snare associated with gap closers in general", it has been removed years ago, the only ability that still have it is leap.

WrathOfInnos

Billium813 wrote: »

I'm fine with ZOS trying to prop up underused skills. I think the issue is that all classes have underused skills and it feels unfair that they are focusing on DK only with this patch (arguably the strongest DPS and PvP class). In the future, I think they should only tackle these issues on a more even distribution. Why not pick 1 skill from all 6 classes? I think most non-DK players are just feeling left out.

Yes, it's a great idea to prop up underused skills. We could just say thank you, and then recommend some other underperforming skills that could be addressed next (to be fair, some did this). Honestly the further ahead DK becomes, the more likely it is that other classes will see some buffs.

Instead we went into blind forum rage, with little to no testing, mostly misinformation and "feelings" about how OP DK would be. The buffs were mostly reverted and I'd say it's now less likely other classes will receive similar treatment in the future.

smee_z

Just put it back to its original glory.
Pull as long as it's in range
and no matter the angle of the pull.

IonicKai

Chains didn't need a buff or even a change... It's a utility skill that's heavily utilized now just not as offensive ability. If they want to give it a buff for the under used morph then focus on utility buff not more offensive power. Not every skill in every class kit needs to be about damage and this skill has been a heavily used tank skill for ages because of the utility. Also as someone else said what about every other class that's missing things and currently not competitive with the DK. We still have gutted sorcs, gutted templars, wardens are niche at best because of the decision to double down on forcing frost staff. There are better uses of time when balancing skills then giving 10% damage to a class that is already the strongest for free...

Edit: forgot to mention that night blades are also in a bad spot where they are only really strong at single target but also require jumping through extra hoops for that damage that still falls behind dk and cro. Cros are in a spot where they are strong but not overwhelming like dks.

Urzigurumash

axi wrote: »

Chains are the worst gap closer in the game when it comes to closing the gap. They are slow, cluncky and unreliable. This is a reason barely any DK has ever used them and rather preffered to slot other gap closer or run without it. 10 seconds of major berserk was a value that could potentially lure some people into using them but 4 seconds is simply not enough considering ability itself have high cost, low dmg and is super cluncky

Correct, now the bandwagoners won't even get to find out that Empowering Chains tends to put you on the wrong side of your opponent. Those 4 seconds of Major Expedition are spent spinning around looking for your original target.

We need easier access to Major Berserk, just like we have easy access to Major Protection.

DK was the most logical choice to try it out since it's already so OP giving it all the buffs in the world would do nothing to change class balance.

Wuuffyy

Urzigurumash wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Chains are the worst gap closer in the game when it comes to closing the gap. They are slow, cluncky and unreliable. This is a reason barely any DK has ever used them and rather preffered to slot other gap closer or run without it. 10 seconds of major berserk was a value that could potentially lure some people into using them but 4 seconds is simply not enough considering ability itself have high cost, low dmg and is super cluncky

Correct, now the bandwagoners won't even get to find out that Empowering Chains tends to put you on the wrong side of your opponent. Those 4 seconds of Major Expedition are spent spinning around looking for your original target.

We need easier access to Major Berserk, just like we have easy access to Major Protection.

DK was the most logical choice to try it out since it's already so OP giving it all the buffs in the world would do nothing to change class balance.

We don’t need easier access to Major berserk. It is a major buff for a reason. This is like saying we need major vauln on everything. Let alone, DK should not be the first and only class to reliably receive this buff.

Caribou77

Backing up to see a bit bigger picture:

DK gets BUFFED with access to MAJOR BERSERK

Templar
Necro
Magsorc

NAH, maybe next time.

(don't try to argue that a 7% increase to magsorc's shield is a buff. it is not. it is utter tripe).

WrathOfInnos

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Chains are the worst gap closer in the game when it comes to closing the gap. They are slow, cluncky and unreliable. This is a reason barely any DK has ever used them and rather preffered to slot other gap closer or run without it. 10 seconds of major berserk was a value that could potentially lure some people into using them but 4 seconds is simply not enough considering ability itself have high cost, low dmg and is super cluncky

Correct, now the bandwagoners won't even get to find out that Empowering Chains tends to put you on the wrong side of your opponent. Those 4 seconds of Major Expedition are spent spinning around looking for your original target.

We need easier access to Major Berserk, just like we have easy access to Major Protection.

DK was the most logical choice to try it out since it's already so OP giving it all the buffs in the world would do nothing to change class balance.

We don’t need easier access to Major berserk. It is a major buff for a reason. This is like saying we need major vauln on everything. Let alone, DK should not be the first and only class to reliably receive this buff.

Would you say Major Sorcery and Brutality are too easy to access? Both are available from numerous weapon, class and guild skills. What about Major Prophecy/Savagery? These often result in more damage than Major Berserk, while being easily accessible through various class skills, camo hunter, inner light, or potions. Potions themselves give Major recovery buffs with 100% uptime, sometimes 2 or 3 together.

Then there are examples like Major Resolve and Major Breach. Both are easy to access, and one counters the other perfectly. Major Protection is also available 100% to anyone with a skill slot for revealing flare. Its natural counter is Major Berserk, which will soon be available to all as well.

seventyfive

Empowering Chains is currently slow, with wonky targetting on uneven terrain, and (perhaps most importantly) requires wasting an extra ability slot for mobility since it mostly gives offensive mobility and is unreliable for escaping. On top of that it's expensive (for what it is) and was further left worse with the empower change.

Now the other chain morph is a unique ability and especially valuable in tanking of course, and to clarify, that morph isn't getting anything and is already in a good spot.

Major Bersek is a great buff to the empowering morph. Will I use this skill to get 4 seconds of it? No, but then again, I don't do any PvE dps so if that's where people are concerned, that's outside of my area.

In theory it's great for bursting in pvp/BGs but the builds made for that simply don't have an ability slot left over and would have to replace something that is important, counteracting the otherwise big benefit. It'll definitely be viable but the full value of the major berserk will be diminshed by having to forgo another important piece for an otherwise unattractive ability, outside the buff.

Caribou77

The salient point is prioritization.

Giving an offensive buff to DK (not to mention Major Berserk, of all things) is the absolute last thing that needs to happen to balance or improve the game.

It does not instill confidence that anyone has a clue what the current state of pvp is.

Mr_Stach

Caribou77 wrote: »

The salient point is prioritization.

Giving an offensive buff to DK (not to mention Major Berserk, of all things) is the absolute last thing that needs to happen to balance or improve the game.

It does not instill confidence that anyone has a clue what the current state of pvp is.

Or PvE for that Matter. DK is dominating on both fronts, it doesn't need more imo

katorga

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

The salient point is prioritization.

Giving an offensive buff to DK (not to mention Major Berserk, of all things) is the absolute last thing that needs to happen to balance or improve the game.

It does not instill confidence that anyone has a clue what the current state of pvp is.

Or PvE for that Matter. DK is dominating on both fronts, it doesn't need more imo

This, both NB and DK really need some heavy nerfs to get them back down to some form of parity with other classes. Both classes are completely overloaded at this point.

While they are loading up those two classes. There are *still* classes with no class access to:

Major Sorcery/Brutalty (DK has both major/minor)
Major Berserk (NB has access to both Major/Minor berserk, plus unnamed 10% & 20% damage buffs)
Major Expedition (NB has both major/minor, on different skills no less so they stack)
Major Cowardice (NB has both major/minor)
Major Evasion
Major Breach
Any form of usable CC
Execute skills
Burst heal skills

WrathOfInnos

Caribou77 wrote: »

The salient point is prioritization.

Giving an offensive buff to DK (not to mention Major Berserk, of all things) is the absolute last thing that needs to happen to balance or improve the game.

It does not instill confidence that anyone has a clue what the current state of pvp is.

It's true that the timing was poor, but that is a temporary issue. Long term the 10s Major Berserk on Empowering Chains would have been a good change to a terrible morph. Other classes will end up stronger than DK at some point (likely in a few months when the chapter releases).

Chains has been weak much longer than DK has been good, about 5 years now since it was made into the worst gap closer. I highly doubt that the devs will revisit this one after balancing classes better. We had our chance at something nice, overreacted and blew it.

OBJnoob

Naw, nobody overreacted. Major berserk on chains was about as dumb as it gets. Give it some uncleansablr super snare. Chains, get it?

Melzo

I don't see anything wrong with chain buffs. As if everyone would start using them. If so, then you lose an additional skill that deals damage. By the way, you won't be able to adequately deal damage by chain spamming. You haven't tested anything yet and the week 4 patch isn't out yet. <snip>

<Edited for Baiting>