PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for New Item Sets

Tommy_The_Gun

danthemann5 wrote: »

Oh, and if you're running Pale Order while solo, you're really in trouble.

Not just that. Any set that provides healing when something happens or HoT. Snake in the stars will pretty much "delete" healing sets - even the bad ones. On top of that there are also passives & CP that provide tiny bits of healing, but will trigger Snake in the stars. Imagine being killed by your own racial passive, just because you are Orc, or because you are Argonian and you drank the potion lol.

KlauthWarthog

They should probably just restrict Snake to trigger on heal over time effects, if stacking those is what they want it to counter.

DrNukenstein

I could see myself using Snake in the Stars and Nix Hound.

Don't gut Snake it before it hits live like you did with Nocturnals Favor. It has an interesting effect, and tremendous potential to shake up the meta.

Todays update makes it look like some of Snake's power was moved from small scale pvp to big pvp (can apply up to 10 times per second for half the initial value). With a 12 second cooldown and per target cool down, I'd say it's niche fits small pvp and bgs best and I'd like to see it balanced around potentially being applied up to 5 times per second with higher damage per tick. I also think there's a case to make it do some burst damage if it gets purged early.

Do not listen to the haters. Snake is a hit and the silent majority really wants to see what'll happen if it hits live a little bit over tuned.

olsborg

Could you please make more nonprocc sets and please make more sets work on nocp/no procc campaign, a few examples would be Gourmands, Orders Wrath and Green Pact etc.

acastanza_ESO

danthemann5 wrote: »

Here's some math:

The maximum theoretical damage from sparkle snek occurs with 9 HOTs (no Mara's) or 8 HOTs (with Mara's). This assumes worst-case timing, meaning that every HOT tick is spaced exactly 100 ms apart, ensuring each results in a sparkle snek damage tick. The maximum theoretical damage is 47,970, with a 4-second DPS of 11,993, and a 16-second (4 sec duration + 12 sec CD) DPS of 750.

The bottom line is this will do exactly nothing to ball groups, but anyone in a not-ball group is gonna take a beating.

Thanks for actually doing the math here! It's pretty clear that this set continues to completely miss the mark.

danthemann5

A much better way to go about accomplishing the stated goal would be something like:

When you damage the target, do X% of the target's maximum health as oblivion damage. This effect scales by Y% for each heal over time effect on the target, up to a maximum for Z%. This effect can only occur once per XX seconds per target.

or something similar

He who stacks the most HOTs eats the most damage.

YandereGirlfriend

The QOL tweak to Ozezan was a very nice touch that will dramatically improve the usability of the set.

However, it highlights a GLARING deficiency with the other, now largely forgotten, "1 second buff" set, Gossamer. This set used to be good - but it was nerfed into literal Oblivion several years ago when the duration was changed from 2 seconds to 1. And that was BEFORE most HoT heals were nerfed to tick every other second.

It has all of the same drawbacks that the devs highlighted with Ozezan (e.g. the buff wears off before you can reapply it because the duration is simply too short for the server to process) but it is further weakened because the set does not even work with overhealing - you have to heal actual damage to apply the Major Evasion. This saddles it with both a bad proc condition as well as an unworkably tiny duration.

This means that the set can never actually mitigate the first (and typically largest...) tick of AOE damage done against you - all that it can do is apply Major Evasion for subsequent attacks. That is NOT healthy behavior for a set.



TLDR; Please give Gossamer the same QOL treatment that was given to Ozezan and increase the buff duration to at least 1.1 seconds (2.1 seconds would be even better).

And if you're feeling even more sporting, also consider changing the set to work with overhealing the way that Spell Power Cure (which is like the Platonic Ideal of a well-balanced set) does. That way the set can have actual preventative value against initial AOE attacks rather than coming into effect only after you have taken potentially massive damage. Otherwise, the Major Evasion duration really should be like 5+ seconds so that the duration somewhat justifies its bad proc condition.

TechMaybeHic

Snake in the Stars still seems to miss on mass incoming heals, yet effectively oppressive to damage that have small heals incoming back from damage done (puncturing sweeps, bloodthirst)

So the argument against getting rid of heal stacking is that DOTs stack. The different is DOT can be purged as well. Why not make something that purges enemy HOTs and isolates that person from getting outside heals for X seconds? I'd allow self heals to not make it a death sentence no matter what you do, but still addressing so many heals flying around stacks of players

Vaqual

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Snake in the Stars still seems to miss on mass incoming heals, yet effectively oppressive to damage that have small heals incoming back from damage done (puncturing sweeps, bloodthirst)

So the argument against getting rid of heal stacking is that DOTs stack. The different is DOT can be purged as well. Why not make something that purges enemy HOTs and isolates that person from getting outside heals for X seconds? I'd allow self heals to not make it a death sentence no matter what you do, but still addressing so many heals flying around stacks of players

Yes, basically an offensively usable pale order/blood frenzy effect. That is a really smart idea.

seventyfive

Snake in the Stars is a strong incentive for both reactive play and putting together reactive builds capable of responding to having these kinds of threats applied to oneself (like picking a burst heal over a HoT).

Reactive play is great and therefor I applaud the general idea of this set.

It seems far more balanced in the current iteration (PTS 8.3.2) than originally. It's potentially really strong, but any set that isn't wont have any noticeable effect. I believe this set being quite strong is a necessary evil to counter dedicated healers in pvp / battlegrounds that are pushing encounters into boring drawn out stalemates. I believe the most positive impact will be in random-queue battlegrounds where currently, you can't predict if your team will get a dedicated healer or not (unless you're the one) and any team without one is currently at a significant disadvantage.

React

Week 3 - Snake in the Stars

I want to just start by saying that I think using sets to target balance problems in PVP is a mistake. It is bad game design to force people into specific sets in order to counter balance issues. In most scenarios, sets that are added for this reason end up just exacerbating the problem in some manner. But with that being said...

The changes to this set this week are very good. It isn't often I feel that good changes to PVP focused sets are made, so bravo on this one.

It appears that you are targeting "ball groups" or just scenarios where HOTS are being stacked in excess, resulting in many different heal ticks per second and enormous, insurmountable HPS. This is the correct thing to target. These scenarios are easily the most problematic outliers when it comes to excessive healing in PVP right now. These groups undoubtedly cause a significant portion of the overall server strain & combat related calculations due to this playstyle, and this set is almost a great counter to them.

That being said, being limited to a single person per 12s is going to prevent this set from actually being a viable counter to ball groups/cross heal stacking.

It isn't enough to be able to apply this debuff to one single person out of a 12 man or larger stack of players. These groups are already able to easily shrug off coldfire & oil damage on their players without even purging it.

In order to allow this set to become a viable counter to the heal stacking behavior of large/coordinated groups, I would change it to not have a hard 12s cooldown for the wearer. Instead, it should only have the once per 12s target cooldown. This would allow the wearer to proc it on multiple people simultaneously (perhaps with a 100MS cooldown on application, if necessary). I would also reduce the damage to a flat 1,000.

While a potential maximum of 10k oblivion damage per second, this may seem too strong to some. However, consider the scenarios where a player is actually receiving 10 ticks of healing in a single second - in most of these, the player is receiving significantly more HPS than the potential 10k maximum DPS from snake in the stars. If it could proc on multiple players in these groups simultaneously, it would help offset their ridiculously high HPS to make them more susceptible to burst damage - something they are essentially immune to currently.

CURRENT, 8.3.2 VERSION

Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 1170 Daedric Damage, up to once per 100ms. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time, and only one instance of star venom every 12s.

SUGGESTED CHANGE

Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 4 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 1170 Daedric Damage, up to once per 100ms. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time, and only one instance of star venom every 12s.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

Thecompton73

React wrote: »

Week 3 - Snake in the Stars

I want to just start by saying that I think using sets to target balance problems in PVP is a mistake. It is bad game design to force people into specific sets in order to counter balance issues. In most scenarios, sets that are added for this reason end up just exacerbating the problem in some manner. But with that being said...

The changes to this set this week are very good. It isn't often I feel that good changes to PVP focused sets are made, so bravo on this one.

It appears that you are targeting "ball groups" or just scenarios where HOTS are being stacked in excess, resulting in many different heal ticks per second and enormous, insurmountable HPS. This is the correct thing to target. These scenarios are easily the most problematic outliers when it comes to excessive healing in PVP right now. These groups undoubtedly cause a significant portion of the overall server strain & combat related calculations due to this playstyle, and this set is almost a great counter to them.

That being said, being limited to a single person per 12s is going to prevent this set from actually being a viable counter to ball groups/cross heal stacking.

It isn't enough to be able to apply this debuff to one single person out of a 12 man or larger stack of players. These groups are already able to easily shrug off coldfire & oil damage on their players without even purging it.

In order to allow this set to become a viable counter to the heal stacking behavior of large/coordinated groups, I would change it to not have a hard 12s cooldown for the wearer. Instead, it should only have the once per 12s target cooldown. This would allow the wearer to proc it on multiple people simultaneously (perhaps with a 100MS cooldown on application, if necessary). I would also reduce the damage to a flat 1,000.

While a potential maximum of 10k oblivion damage per second, this may seem too strong to some. However, consider the scenarios where a player is actually receiving 10 ticks of healing in a single second - in most of these, the player is receiving significantly more HPS than the potential 10k maximum DPS from snake in the stars. If it could proc on multiple players in these groups simultaneously, it would help offset their ridiculously high HPS to make them more susceptible to burst damage - something they are essentially immune to currently.

CURRENT, 8.3.2 VERSION

Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 1170 Daedric Damage, up to once per 100ms. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time, and only one instance of star venom every 12s.

SUGGESTED CHANGE

Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 4 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 1170 Daedric Damage, up to once per 100ms. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time, and only one instance of star venom every 12s.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

I really hope they see and listen to this suggestion. If they do it could be the actual first time PTS feedback helped dial in a set to perfection before it hits live.

bachpain

The only way this set will not obliterate small group/pugs and solos is if there is a mechanic built in for multiple heals being layered needed to cause it to proc. Forget making a bomb build, just be a nightblade and debuff everyone in SOTS. You won't even need any other sets. Watch them heal themselves to death. Meanwhile the ball groups will roll on overhealing it anyway.

I can't wait.

Thecompton73

bachpain wrote: »

The only way this set will not obliterate small group/pugs and solos is if there is a mechanic built in for multiple heals being layered needed to cause it to proc. Forget making a bomb build, just be a nightblade and debuff everyone in SOTS. You won't even need any other sets. Watch them heal themselves to death. Meanwhile the ball groups will roll on overhealing it anyway.

I can't wait.

If you've only got 2 Hots ticking each second it's only 2K damage per second for 4 seconds. 8K damage over 4 seconds is going to obliterate you? If that's the case how are you surviving 8K DK whips, 8K frost warden shalks, or 16k NB assasins will procs that do that much damage in one GCD?
If you've got more than 2 HOT's ticking every second you're basically the type of player the set is meant to target, considering most of them only tick every other second now it means that to hit even that fairly low threshold you've got have a lot of hots on you. What this set will do is simply put out enough damage to counter the majority of healing being received (or worst case doing a tiny bit more) from the Hots being used for that pretty short time period and only counters 1/5th to 1/15th of a burst heal used while it's active. People are still going to have to being doing quite a bit of other damage while the set is procced to finish someone in the relatively small window it gives for getting a kill. Not to mention it procs off any major or minor debuff applied to the target so it's going to be tough for a single person or small group to reliably proc just as they have a burst lined up to use during the 4 second window.
I really view it as more of a support set. People running it will be at a disadvantage in 1v1's and it will only really punish people stacking HOT's to stay alive when they are outnumbered and taking a beating already. That's why I think it needs the global cooldown for application reduced to at least 4 seconds so you can always have one application active. Otherwise it might be so niche people won't run it. I think of it like Inevitable Detonation, that skill could be devastating if a critical mass of people spammed it on a ball group again and again but since it's individually so weak no one wants to use it. I'm afraid that's the fate of this set if you can only apply it once every 12 seconds. People will try it, see it's just not enough to help finish someone in a group the majority of the times it's applied and therefore not worth the long cooldown.

bachpain

If you are ever involved in a keep battle then you will get all sorts of peripheral healing this is ESO where cross healing is everywhere. You don't have to ask for healing it is on the ground, in the air, you just have to be in the vicinity of other players and it is going to happen. In the keep/siege system of Cyrodiil it isn't uncommon at all to be solo or in a very small group and find yourself surrounded by people attacking or defending an area. Like I said.... I can't wait.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hey everyone, we've gotten a few messages today with concerns over some missed documentation on changes made to Runecarver's Blaze, as well as its current strength. We wanted to give you all a heads up that we will be making some adjustments that affect the power of the set, which will be included when this update goes live in a few weeks; updated values will be included in the patch notes when Update 37 launches.

Thanks to everyone who brought this to our attention!

CleymenZero

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, we've gotten a few messages today with concerns over some missed documentation on changes made to Runecarver's Blaze, as well as its current strength. We wanted to give you all a heads up that we will be making some adjustments that affect the power of the set, which will be included when this update goes live in a few weeks; updated values will be included in the patch notes when Update 37 launches.

Thanks to everyone who brought this to our attention!

I tend to criticize a lot so it's only fair to give praise when it is due.

I just wanted to say you guys have been super proactive with all the PTS adjustments and it's been extremely appreciated.

We used to chat and speculate and try to anticipate x, y, z change and essentially we were wasting our time and it's our fault but with frequent clarifications, we're just here for the ride.

You've always worked hard but you guys are working that Kevin dude to the bone XD

Give him a medal or smth!

skinnycheeks

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, we've gotten a few messages today with concerns over some missed documentation on changes made to Runecarver's Blaze, as well as its current strength. We wanted to give you all a heads up that we will be making some adjustments that affect the power of the set, which will be included when this update goes live in a few weeks; updated values will be included in the patch notes when Update 37 launches.

Thanks to everyone who brought this to our attention!

Thank you very much for this heads-up. I'm sure a lot of content creators would have been spending a lot of time with this over the next couple of weeks with the way it is currently performing on the PTS. Really appreciate you reaching out about it and saving us some wasted hours!

Danel_Vadan

It'd be cool to let us know how it will be nerfed so we can skip this DLC.

React

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, we've gotten a few messages today with concerns over some missed documentation on changes made to Runecarver's Blaze, as well as its current strength. We wanted to give you all a heads up that we will be making some adjustments that affect the power of the set, which will be included when this update goes live in a few weeks; updated values will be included in the patch notes when Update 37 launches.

Thanks to everyone who brought this to our attention!

This is a tad bit concerning Gina. If you're increasing the power of the set, we should be informed on what the changes are so we can properly test it before live to ensure it isn't broken or overperforming in some way.

It is very contradictory to potentially publish an untested PROC DAMAGE set, when SITS isn't being further adjusted in spite of our feedback because "you need more data from player interactions to determine if adjustments are needed".

Edit: There are two weeks until the patch goes live. If there are already changes planned for the set, or changes that have been made but not documented, can you just tell us what they are so we can at least check the numbers to see if they make sense? Isn't this the point of the PTS?

VixxVexx

Why not just tell us the actual changes to the Runecarver set?

ForumBully

With Runecarver, loud and clear, message received...with SitS they just aren't sure yet of the absolutely obvious and they need a few more months to investigate.
The jokes write themselves sometimes.

skinnycheeks

React wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone, we've gotten a few messages today with concerns over some missed documentation on changes made to Runecarver's Blaze, as well as its current strength. We wanted to give you all a heads up that we will be making some adjustments that affect the power of the set, which will be included when this update goes live in a few weeks; updated values will be included in the patch notes when Update 37 launches.

Thanks to everyone who brought this to our attention!

This is a tad bit concerning Gina. If you're increasing the power of the set, we should be informed on what the changes are so we can properly test it before live to ensure it isn't broken or overperforming in some way.

It is very contradictory to potentially publish an untested PROC DAMAGE set, when SITS isn't being further adjusted in spite of our feedback because "you need more data from player interactions to determine if adjustments are needed".

Edit: There are two weeks until the patch goes live. If there are already changes planned for the set, or changes that have been made but not documented, can you just tell us what they are so we can at least check the numbers to see if they make sense? Isn't this the point of the PTS?

I think it will be nerfed, not buffed. I put a short vid together going over it if you wanna check it out

https://youtu.be/D4-xDNG39oI

Billium813

Make Unstable Core hate on heals. It's already the perfect animation to represent to the effected player "You are not getting outside heals right now", it's already positioned as a PvP skill given it's terrible in PvE, and since Templar is trashed atm, Templar could use a new toy to make it somewhat relevant in PvP.

• Eclipse:

  Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, rebounding direct damage back on the target. Limited to one.
  
  10% of all direct damage the target deals reflects back on the target, up to 4000 damage.

  • Unstable Core (morph):

    Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, absorbing incoming heals and rebounding direct damage back on the target. Limited to one.
    
    All incoming healing on the target is reduced by 60%. 10% of all direct damage the target deals reflects back on the target, up to 6000 damage.
    
    If the target receives 8000 health or deals 4000 damage, the sphere explodes, applying Major Defile to all enemies within 8 meters for 4 seconds and stunning them for 4 seconds

bachpain

Oh I don't know or just fix the issue of 30+ instances of the same heals stacking on everyone? I know I have repeated the same thing here in the forums a few times, but making a set to fix a game issue is lazy at its core. Zos should be tuning battle spirit not introducing sets like SitS to combat heal stacking, period.

ForumBully

bachpain wrote: »

Oh I don't know or just fix the issue of 30+ instances of the same heals stacking on everyone? I know I have repeated the same thing here in the forums a few times, but making a set to fix a game issue is lazy at its core. Zos should be tuning battle spirit not introducing sets like SitS to combat heal stacking, period.

It seems so easy...but first let's make sets that explode allies, sets that yank everyone all over the map even through CC immunity, sets that recreate a night blade tether bomb after yanking everyone all over the map, and now a set that punishes stacked healing (but only for small groups and solo).

Why settle for simple solutions when complicated disasters are so plentiful?

Tommy_The_Gun

ForumBully wrote: »

With Runecarver, loud and clear, message received...with SitS they just aren't sure yet of the absolutely obvious and they need a few more months to investigate.
The jokes write themselves sometimes.

Agree on that. It does not even require testing or logging on to PTS. If some one PvP-ed in Cyro at least once - you just know that SitS will be broken, no matter how much cool-down they will add. The very concept of the set in its core makes it game breaking. It is kinda sad that Devs are trying to "fix" mechanics by adding a set. They have other tools (like battle sprit), that would potentially fix a lot of problems.

Anyway, not really feedback about Item Sets themselves, but more like the recent trends.

When Developers of a game that has PvP mode keep introducing PvP sourced gear, that is meant to be use in PvP mode and I see sets like DC, PB, Hrothgar, Mara and now Shell Splitter & Snake in the Stars... I mean as a player, I read this type of decisions as one of the following (Devs are trying to say something to me):
- Go play no cp / no proc.
- Stop caring about balance at all.
- Stop doing PvP Content.

TechMaybeHic

I've run into large groups that now do almost nothing but spam Rush of Agony. I suppose that is still a new set and they need more data points to tell them a mass pull that does not give immunity afterwards can be a problem. It's really hard to tell the impact of something like this.

The_Titan_Tim

Billium813 wrote: »

Make Unstable Core hate on heals. It's already the perfect animation to represent to the effected player "You are not getting outside heals right now", it's already positioned as a PvP skill given it's terrible in PvE, and since Templar is trashed atm, Templar could use a new toy to make it somewhat relevant in PvP.

• Eclipse:

  Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, rebounding direct damage back on the target. Limited to one.
  
  10% of all direct damage the target deals reflects back on the target, up to 4000 damage.

  • Unstable Core (morph):

    Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, absorbing incoming heals and rebounding direct damage back on the target. Limited to one.
    
    All incoming healing on the target is reduced by 60%. 10% of all direct damage the target deals reflects back on the target, up to 6000 damage.
    
    If the target receives 8000 health or deals 4000 damage, the sphere explodes, applying Major Defile to all enemies within 8 meters for 4 seconds and stunning them for 4 seconds

At risk of sounding crazy here, but I actually love Unstable Core in PvP right now, it’s phenomenal when you can isolate a target, what I don’t love, is that it’s a choice between one of the best Single Target moves in the game, and quite literally the best HoT. Most players opt for Living Dark because it carries Templar defense.

I would much rather other less used abilities get some love, than yet another of our burst tools become niche, because you and I both know they wouldn’t give it that much Heal Absorption, and slap the same tooltip as all the other sets, setting it to around 4,000 heal negation, an absolutely negligible value.

Maybe they could add Heal Absorption on both morphs of Solar Flare? Dark Flare already applies Major Defile, it wouldn’t be too much of a reach.

What I would REALLY love is if they doubled down on the theme of Blazing Shield and gave Templar a parry/riposte type mechanic, where Blazing could last one or two seconds and shield way more, reflecting a ton while emphasizing well timed casts, costing nearly 4,000 Magicka every time you use it.

Templar and Warden are the only classes in the game without any built in mechanics to our gameplay, we don’t have stack build-ups like DK, Sorc, and Nightblade, and we can’t buff our abilities with corpses. It’s dreadfully boring at the moment.

ESO_Nightingale

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Make Unstable Core hate on heals. It's already the perfect animation to represent to the effected player "You are not getting outside heals right now", it's already positioned as a PvP skill given it's terrible in PvE, and since Templar is trashed atm, Templar could use a new toy to make it somewhat relevant in PvP.

• Eclipse:

  Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, rebounding direct damage back on the target. Limited to one.
  
  10% of all direct damage the target deals reflects back on the target, up to 4000 damage.

  • Unstable Core (morph):

    Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, absorbing incoming heals and rebounding direct damage back on the target. Limited to one.
    
    All incoming healing on the target is reduced by 60%. 10% of all direct damage the target deals reflects back on the target, up to 6000 damage.
    
    If the target receives 8000 health or deals 4000 damage, the sphere explodes, applying Major Defile to all enemies within 8 meters for 4 seconds and stunning them for 4 seconds

At risk of sounding crazy here, but I actually love Unstable Core in PvP right now, it’s phenomenal when you can isolate a target, what I don’t love, is that it’s a choice between one of the best Single Target moves in the game, and quite literally the best HoT. Most players opt for Living Dark because it carries Templar defense.

I would much rather other less used abilities get some love, than yet another of our burst tools become niche, because you and I both know they wouldn’t give it that much Heal Absorption, and slap the same tooltip as all the other sets, setting it to around 4,000 heal negation, an absolutely negligible value.

Maybe they could add Heal Absorption on both morphs of Solar Flare? Dark Flare already applies Major Defile, it wouldn’t be too much of a reach.

What I would REALLY love is if they doubled down on the theme of Blazing Shield and gave Templar a parry/riposte type mechanic, where Blazing could last one or two seconds and shield way more, reflecting a ton while emphasizing well timed casts, costing nearly 4,000 Magicka every time you use it.

Templar and Warden are the only classes in the game without any built in mechanics to our gameplay, we don’t have stack build-ups like DK, Sorc, and Nightblade, and we can’t buff our abilities with corpses. It’s dreadfully boring at the moment.

warden used to have this mechanic with shalks but zos decided that was too hard for us even though we have no other delayed burst skills.