Class Change Tokens - Request Number 73,276

TDVM · May 22

fizzylu wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

You can say whatever you want, but the fact remains, but the fact remains that ZOS has no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you get outraged about it and try to prove otherwise.
To be honest, I'm tired of telling everyone the same thing.

To be honest, no one can really say if there are no plans of adding a class change token or not considering even if there were.... Zenimax wouldn't tell us until it was about ready to be added to the game (just like they do everything else). And a quote from over a year ago stating that they "do not have any plans on implementing class changes tokens at this time" kind of proves that even more. And things like the addition of class leveling achievements could even be one of the first steps to adding one for all we know.
And either way, it doesn't change the fact that players are very much able and allowed to voice what kind of things they would like to see added to the game to make their time spent in it more enjoyable. Your own opinion on the requested feature doesn't change that.

No one knows the plans of ZOS, only they themselves.
Level up achievements don't prove anything at all, they will add level up achievements for weapons of all kinds in the new chapter as well.
Even if the quote was made over a year ago it doesn't prove anything, yes you can make theories and stuff. They could just give the answer and forget about it. Maybe the token idea is good, but clearly not here and now when the game is in trouble. People pretend like they need to add a token without thinking about the consequences, and what comfort can we talk about?
People ask for a lot of things, and do all the requests turn out well? The game is getting horribly simple, same pvp, no balance, necro is dead, and necro has been asked to be improved for over two years now. The game is developing very slowly

FelisCatus · May 22

fizzylu wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

changing your class every time there's a new meta, or you get nerfed, isn't the answer. Now I'm not saying that they didn't break necro, or that they're not going to nerf arcanist(because they probably will, that's just the pattern), but feeling compelled to change and being given the opportunity to regardless of what the cost is is likely something they want to avoid.

People switch to their levelled alts every new meta a class change would not make a difference because it would likely be barred behind a high price. So flavour of the month meta alts are "worse for the community" than a class change token would ever be.

Yep, people who are that concerned about playing what's meta already have alts of every class anyway so I don't see how that argument has any weight. I mean, seriously.... where in any of these threads about class change tokens have you seen someone say "I want class change tokens so I can change to the meta one every update"? I know I haven't seen it. Because again, the people that worry about what's meta already have 20+ characters or whatever the maximum is now of every single class and their magicka/stamina/hybrid versions.

It's just nonsense from obstinate people who believe that because they had to suffer and waste hours of their time levelling an alt (of their own free will) others also have to suffer. I've seen a number of people in this thread and other threads have this attitude. Not everyone wants to level and alt and even those that have them all levelled like me don't even want to play them. Most of the arguments against class change tokens are literally people being spiteful or stubborn against other players just wanting convenience. For those that say they don't want them because they wouldn't use them, great. Don't use them? It's again not really an argument it's just noise.

fizzylu · May 22

TDVM wrote: »

No one knows the plans of ZOS, only they themselves.

That.... was exactly my point. Since you claimed:

TDVM wrote: »

You can say whatever you want, but the fact remains, but the fact remains that ZOS has no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you get outraged about it and try to prove otherwise.
To be honest, I'm tired of telling everyone the same thing.

As if you do in fact know the plans of ZOS. And then I just followed it up with information that can further serve as little hints or the beginnings of a class change token, just to strengthen my point that there is indeed no factual proof that they have no plans to introduce the feature.... again, as you claimed.

TDVM · May 22

fizzylu wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

No one knows the plans of ZOS, only they themselves.

That.... was exactly my point. Since you claimed:

TDVM wrote: »

You can say whatever you want, but the fact remains, but the fact remains that ZOS has no plans to introduce this feature, no matter how much you get outraged about it and try to prove otherwise.
To be honest, I'm tired of telling everyone the same thing.

As if you do in fact know the plans of ZOS. And then I just followed it up with information that can further serve as little hints or the beginnings of a class change token, just to strengthen my point that there is indeed no factual proof that they have no plans to introduce the feature.... again, as you claimed.

It's just built logic from the current state of the game. Where it's clearly worth paying attention to useful things rather than a class change token that can wait

the1andonlyskwex · May 23

fizzylu wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

changing your class every time there's a new meta, or you get nerfed, isn't the answer. Now I'm not saying that they didn't break necro, or that they're not going to nerf arcanist(because they probably will, that's just the pattern), but feeling compelled to change and being given the opportunity to regardless of what the cost is is likely something they want to avoid.

People switch to their levelled alts every new meta a class change would not make a difference because it would likely be barred behind a high price. So flavour of the month meta alts are "worse for the community" than a class change token would ever be.

Yep, people who are that concerned about playing what's meta already have alts of every class anyway so I don't see how that argument has any weight. I mean, seriously.... where in any of these threads about class change tokens have you seen someone say "I want class change tokens so I can change to the meta one every update"? I know I haven't seen it. Because again, the people that worry about what's meta already have 20+ characters or whatever the maximum is now of every single class and their magicka/stamina/hybrid versions.

I see requests like that all the time, they're just phrased as something like "I want a class change because ZOS ruined my main". Lately they've been coming from Templars and Necromancers, but if you go back far enough I'm pretty sure you can find similar posts about other classes as well. Changing class to run away from nerfs is almost exactly the same thing as changing class to chase buffs, it's just another way of saying the same thing.

fizzylu · May 23

@the1andonlyskwex
But they're not saying that because of nerfs or because those classes are no longer meta, and definitely not because they desire the ability to swap to the meta at will at any time.... they're saying it because the classes had terrible reworks to fundamental skills that Zenimax chose to ignore feedback about and put live anyway. GLS, templar jabs, and there's even people who seriously abandoned their nightblades because of the Grim Focus permaglow, some who I know now wish for class change tokens because of that fact. And templars are still one of the best healers (I have never seen one being the bottom of anything, actually) and nightblades are still the best gank class around.... they are both very far from being irrelevant to the meta (I won't even bring necromancer into this fully because that class is actually a hot mess and has a whole nother level of problems and I'll be here all day if I do).

And again, those actual meta chasers that you are so worried about.... well, they already have maxed versions of every class. I assure you, those are the last people desiring/in need of class change tokens.

the1andonlyskwex · May 23

fizzylu wrote: »

@the1andonlyskwex
But they're not saying that because of nerfs or because those classes are no longer meta, and definitely not because they desire the ability to swap to the meta at will at any time.... they're saying it because the classes had terrible reworks to fundamental skills that Zenimax chose to ignore feedback about and put live anyway. GLS, templar jabs, and there's even people who seriously abandoned their nightblades because of the Grim Focus permaglow, some who I know now wish for class change tokens because of that fact. And templars are still one of the best healers (I have never seen one being the bottom of anything, actually) and nightblades are still the best gank class around.... they are both very far from being irrelevant to the meta (I won't even bring necromancer into this fully because that class is actually a hot mess and has a whole nother level of problems and I'll be here all day if I do).

And again, those actual meta chasers that you are so worried about.... well, they already have maxed versions of every class. I assure you, those are the last people desiring/in need of class change tokens.

You can rationalize it all you want. I can virtually guarantee that at least half of the people complaining are more concerned about their favorite abilities getting nerfed than they are about whatever cosmetic change they're also complaining about.

Of the 3 classes that have been mentioned here, this is most obvious for Templars, where even the thread dedicated to complaining about the jabs animation is full of people who are also complaining about the corresponding nerf and their newfound inability to do good DPS by spamming a single skill.

That said, the relevant nightblade and necromancer threads are also full of people whining about balance. For nightblade, it's mostly complaints about how trials groups don't want nightblade DPS, and for necromancer it's usually complaints about PvP.

At the end of the day, it's very clear that a lot of the people complaining about how their class is ruined are only really complaining about balance and whatever cosmetic issues they have are just icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

Lastly, I'm actually a lot less concerned about being forced to chase the meta than I am about a monetized class change turning into the end of balance changes entirely. We even have concrete evidence of what will happen. Look at what's happened with race changes:

Shortly after the introduction of race change tokens ZOS made a significant balance pass. After an uproar on these forums accusing ZOS of rebalancing races just to sell tokens, they eventually gave everyone 3 free tokens in an attempt to prove that their motivation wasn't financial. Even that wasn't enough to completely end the accusations though, because there are an awful lot of meta chasers who wanted to race change 4 or more characters.

Then, the next time ZOS made (much smaller) racial balance changes, the accusations of balance monetization flared up again. That time, ZOS stood their ground and refused to give away free change tokens, which is a decision I support, but it obviously didn't do anything to dampen the accusations.

Since then (which was years ago), there have been exactly 0 racial balance changes, despite some obvious imbalances. It's pretty obvious that all of the accusations of monetized balance (and the corresponding threats to either quit ESO or boycott Zenimax more generally) had the effect of shutting down all racial balance updates.

Now, with that in mind, think about what's likely to happen with a class change token. People were already freaking out about the effect of minor racial bonuses. A similar situation with classes would be so much worse, as would a cessation of any attempts at future class balance by ZOS.

Sakiri · May 23

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

I don't want to play on my alts. It's not a matter of lazy as they're all levelled and good to go. It's a matter of connection. I don't care for them and there seems to be no way to make me have the same level of connection to them when my whole ESO journey has been done with my main. All those years, hours, moments, experiencing zones, dungeons, quests, PVP, guilds, housing, etc for the first time. Good or bad have all been with my main. You can't replicate that sort of emotional attachment. So don't try force me to, I will never have the same connection to an alt that I have with my main.

This is basically how I feel about my main character and trying to explain it to people who are happy having a bunch of characters is pointless, I've learned. But yeah.... I want to do the content on him and build him up, not an alt just because I don't enjoy his class anymore after Zenimax changed it and/or the way combat works.

Sakiri wrote: »

And if they ever do, I hope they're more expensive than crown houses, because I, for one, do not want compelled to change class to fit a meta.

They could easily prevent this kind of behavior by having a limit on how often someone can purchase a class change token. And you could, you know, always just play with people who are there to progress within the game AND have fun without stressing everyone out about tiny percentage differences in DPS/healing.

When ZOS arbitrarily changes how a class fundamentally works (looking at you necromancer, with the mega thread that's been on the top of the forums for weeks now) when no one asked because they "know better" it really drives home the need for a class change token. I reckon it won't belong before they do something to Arcanist.

Ironically, you just stated why they're not likely to ever do it.

changing your class every time there's a new meta, or you get nerfed, isn't the answer. Now I'm not saying that they didn't break necro, or that they're not going to nerf arcanist(because they probably will, that's just the pattern), but feeling compelled to change and being given the opportunity to regardless of what the cost is is likely something they want to avoid.

That said, at least you're not in my boat. I'm a magsorc. No one wants a fricking magsorc. At least EC cro is still a thing.

People switch to their levelled alts every new meta a class change would not make a difference because it would likely be barred behind a high price. So flavour of the month meta alts are "worse for the community" than a class change token would ever be.

Although I don't think players should volunteer themselves as judge, jury and executioner for what is "good" or "bad" for the community when your take is completely subjective. It also comes across as domineering and condescending to a lot of people who don't follow the meta or don't care about it. Some people just care about roleplaying (shock - in an mmorpg).

People concerned about role play don't give two craps about what their character actually is. I've role played with vampires and demons in games that have neither, and it doesn't matter, it's thst character's story.

Elsonso · May 23

Sakiri wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

People switch to their levelled alts every new meta a class change would not make a difference because it would likely be barred behind a high price. So flavour of the month meta alts are "worse for the community" than a class change token would ever be.

Although I don't think players should volunteer themselves as judge, jury and executioner for what is "good" or "bad" for the community when your take is completely subjective. It also comes across as domineering and condescending to a lot of people who don't follow the meta or don't care about it. Some people just care about roleplaying (shock - in an mmorpg).

People concerned about role play don't give two craps about what their character actually is. I've role played with vampires and demons in games that have neither, and it doesn't matter, it's thst character's story.

There are very different "role playing" definitions, which I have seen in action going all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons table top games.

What you mention is only one definition. Class change tokens are useful to another one of those definitions.

fizzylu · May 23

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

You can rationalize it all you want. I can virtually guarantee that at least half of the people complaining are more concerned about their favorite abilities getting nerfed than they are about whatever cosmetic change they're also complaining about..

I'm not rationalizing anything, I'm simply sharing the actual stance the majority of players I know and speak to personally have. Now, I'm not saying no one would use a class change token to swap to a class that's not entirely garbage and hasn't had fundamental skills butchered by Zenimax.... but I am saying that the majority asking for them would not in fact use class change tokens regularly to do so, and I think that's the part you and another person missed. A reminder of what I said and the way I phrased it:

fizzylu wrote: »

I mean, seriously.... where in any of these threads about class change tokens have you seen someone say "I want class change tokens so I can change to the meta one every update"?

And there's plenty of ways to limit the class change token so that it wouldn't be abused, but still allow players the option to bring life back into their ESO experience. I've said it many times on this site, but I do think there should be a limit on how often one can buy a token. I think it should only allow a player to change to classes they have in fact leveled to 50. I think the class change should set the class skill lines to 1, just like a new character would. But using meta chasers as an excuse to not add such a thing will never be reasoning I can agree with. I'll always be on the side of players who have simply had their love for the game negatively impacted by questionable changes to animations, visuals, and the feel of the bread+butter skills of their class.... and I definitely won't be stressing about the part of the playerbase that are going to meta chase with or without a class change token and say other players should go without because of them.

I'll be ignoring this thread from now on though, it's getting a bit too repetitive.

Rasande_Robin · May 24

This is looking more and more enticing considered how much they butcher necro and it just keeps coming. Latest is the mitigation change, since necro had a lot of unique ones.

Don't get me started on GLS.

Nic727 · May 26

fizzylu wrote: »

…still allow players the option to bring life back into their ESO experience. I've said it many times on this site, but I do think there should be a limit on how often one can buy a token. I think it should only allow a player to change to classes they have in fact leveled to 50. I think the class change should set the class skill lines to 1, just like a new character would. But using meta chasers as an excuse to not add such a thing will never be reasoning I can agree with. I'll always be on the side of players who have simply had their love for the game negatively impacted by questionable changes to animations, visuals, and the feel of the bread+butter skills of their class.... and I definitely won't be stressing about the part of the playerbase that are going to meta chase with or without a class change token and say other players should go without because of them.

I'll be ignoring this thread from now on though, it's getting a bit too repetitive.

I totally agree. I quit playing the game because I hated my character from launch and they added the class I wanted after. But I’m not playing 24/24 ESO, so rediscovering the map, doing all quests again, re-do all my crafting… It’s a big no no for me. Yes I could just create an alt and rush everything, but where is the fun?

I don’t care about Meta skills. I just want to enjoy the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Tandor · May 26

Nic727 wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

…still allow players the option to bring life back into their ESO experience. I've said it many times on this site, but I do think there should be a limit on how often one can buy a token. I think it should only allow a player to change to classes they have in fact leveled to 50. I think the class change should set the class skill lines to 1, just like a new character would. But using meta chasers as an excuse to not add such a thing will never be reasoning I can agree with. I'll always be on the side of players who have simply had their love for the game negatively impacted by questionable changes to animations, visuals, and the feel of the bread+butter skills of their class.... and I definitely won't be stressing about the part of the playerbase that are going to meta chase with or without a class change token and say other players should go without because of them.

I'll be ignoring this thread from now on though, it's getting a bit too repetitive.

I totally agree. I quit playing the game because I hated my character from launch and they added the class I wanted after. But I’m not playing 24/24 ESO, so rediscovering the map, doing all quests again, re-do all my crafting… It’s a big no no for me. Yes I could just create an alt and rush everything, but where is the fun?

I don’t care about Meta skills. I just want to enjoy the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Then why would you rush anyway? Just start over with a new character, play through the game in order to do what you want to do, namely enjoy the Elder Scrolls Universe.

ZOS_Hadeostry · May 26

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.