Class Change Tokens - Request Number 73,276

Jammy420 · January 22

Tandor wrote: »

It's a primarily a financial consideration for ZOS as it would be for any business. How many players want a class change token, and what proportion of them will actually leave if they don't get it? In order to retain those players how much revenue will ZOS lose from the current Crown Store sale of skill lines, character slots and skyshards etc, and what will be the cost of designing, coding, and testing the tokens as well as the cost of support for any problems arising from them? Might some players leave because they are impacted adversely by the tokens, whether directly or through their character data being corrupted as a result of the system changes?

It's not as simple as "get an intern to knock them up by next week and the players will pay a decent price for them so everyone's a winner". It's fraught with difficulty, both technical and financial.

Or they could just make more engaging content so more people play, resulting in no net loss what so ever.

Ragnarok0130 · January 23

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I used to love the alt system. AWA ended that. Right now I have a few

AWA made me love the alt system even more now that I don't need to worry about getting a title or achievement on the "right" character. Now I can simply flex my class to whatever the raid lead needs for a proper group comp and everybody wins.

That being said a max level token should be available to create a fully leveled level 50 toon like other MMOs have. I don't care if it's "easy" to level toons it still takes time to level the toon and required skills. I want my toon to be raid ready ASAP and don't get me started on the 6 month "horse prog" - that's an area where AWA fell dreadfully short with horse leveling still being character specific. I don't need to run the same story lines 20 times every time I want to get a toon ready for end game activities.

sshogrin · January 24

Tyrobag wrote: »

Please please please tell me its finally time for a class change token. I already have a character that worships Hermaeus Mora, and is practically already an arcanist. I have years invested in the character, so remaking him isn't an option.

This has been asked for years now, anyone else think its finally time for zos to make this money making machine?

Whenever they come out with a new class, they give an extra character slot. There is also the thing of leveling up the class to learn it, and level up class abilities. There really is no need of a class change token other than people not wanting to take the time to level up a new toon.

Hurbster · January 24

It's more than that. I want to use the character I used since beta, but I don't want to play as a templar any more. There are a lot of memories with that character. But I can't stand playing as a templar.

Just levelling up a new toon isn't anywhere near the same.

If I can change his class then I'll be back and playing faster than a very very fast thing that's in a very fast mood.

LunaFlora · January 24

sshogrin wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Please please please tell me its finally time for a class change token. I already have a character that worships Hermaeus Mora, and is practically already an arcanist. I have years invested in the character, so remaking him isn't an option.

This has been asked for years now, anyone else think its finally time for zos to make this money making machine?

Whenever they come out with a new class, they give an extra character slot. There is also the thing of leveling up the class to learn it, and level up class abilities. There really is no need of a class change token other than people not wanting to take the time to level up a new toon.

most people want a class change token so we can use the same character.
same character that we have done all story quests with.
it would take months to re do every quest

Bonefizt · January 27

Elsonso wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Why would you need to do EVERYTHING over again? It's just unnecessary.

Some people only have 2 or 3 characters, and have an ungodly amount of time invested. Sithis forbid people actually have characters they are attached to.

Still, it isn't necessary to do everything all over again with a new character. Actually, it isn't even possible to do everything over again.

As for being attached to characters, it is partially that reason that I would not consider anything like a class or race change on them. They would be significantly different characters and the former attachment would be irrelevant. After thousands of hours playing them, that would be a tragedy.

However, my objection to the Class Change Token isn't because I would not use it, or because I just don't want others to be able to use it. This is supposed to be an RPG game and creating and leveling characters is core to what an RPG is. Class Change Tokens are an RPG line that ZOS has not crossed. I am sure there are RPG games out there that do it anyway, but I would just question whether they are actually an RPG or just an action adventure game. Maybe ESO is really a multiplayer action adventure game that is mislabeled as an "RPG"? Time will tell.

Sorry, but this really makes no sense. How is a class (basically your profession, or talent / pursued interest) something "you cannot cross in an RPG", in which Race Change Token and Alliance Change Token already exist?

I think it's logically easier to switch profession than your entire origin and ancestry, and more immersive as well within role-playing constraints. Especially in a world in which you can already be in every single guild at the same time without anyone complaining.

Shagreth · January 27

LunaFlora wrote: »

most people want a class change token so we can use the same character.
same character that we have done all story quests with.
it would take months to re do every quest

[snip] This shouldn't even be a debate, the existence of such an item doesn't hurt them or the game, provided they put some limitations.(i.e. once per X amount of months)

And no, they NEVER said that it's not possible, they just said that it's a difficult thing to do. Yeah, another difficult thing to do is give us a tab for housing where every furniture goes there automatically, yet we're still forced to turn houses into garbage dumps.

[edited for baiting]

Ingenon · January 27

ZOS has said they have no plans to implement class change tokens. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7804848/#Comment_7804848

Personally I think they could do it in ESO, unless they have a real spaghetti code issue going on. I see it as similar to changing race. You click on token, click on character, you go to a screen to pick new race, when you save your change (new race), you are logged in, and your character is refunded the race specific skill points, while the new race specific skill area has no points allocated. For class change, same thought process, ZOS needs a new screen once you pick the class change token, you pick new class, save change, you are logged in with refunded class skill points, and all class skills have zero points allocated. With blank class skills, it is a bit more work for you, since you would need to play for a while with your character to level your class skills. To me the code changes don't sound awful, but as I said above there may be a spaghetti code issue going on, which would make it harder.

And I don't care if they implement it or not. Does not bother me if for example I am playing an Arcanist, and everyone else decides they want to play an Arcanist also.

Tandor · January 27

Shagreth wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

most people want a class change token so we can use the same character.
same character that we have done all story quests with.
it would take months to re do every quest

[snip] This shouldn't even be a debate, the existence of such an item doesn't hurt them or the game, provided they put some limitations.(i.e. once per X amount of months)

And no, they NEVER said that it's not possible, they just said that it's a difficult thing to do. Yeah, another difficult thing to do is give us a tab for housing where every furniture goes there automatically, yet we're still forced to turn houses into garbage dumps.

That's flat out wrong. It diverts a lot of developer time and resources away from everything else, for what is clearly a major change, at a time when there is also concern at the reduction in new game content through the changes to the quarterly release schedules. It also threatens the stability of the existing database as the risk of things being corrupted in such a major structural change is great (as openly acknowledged by ZOS). Unless those who want it are prepared to pay a very substantial price for it the introduction of a class change token would also remove a lot of the existing revenue through the resulting lost sales of skyshards, skill lines and other things in the Crown Store.

[edited to remove quote]

Pixiepumpkin · January 27

Tandor wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

most people want a class change token so we can use the same character.
same character that we have done all story quests with.
it would take months to re do every quest

[snip] This shouldn't even be a debate, the existence of such an item doesn't hurt them or the game, provided they put some limitations.(i.e. once per X amount of months)

And no, they NEVER said that it's not possible, they just said that it's a difficult thing to do. Yeah, another difficult thing to do is give us a tab for housing where every furniture goes there automatically, yet we're still forced to turn houses into garbage dumps.

That's flat out wrong. It diverts a lot of developer time and resources away from everything else, for what is clearly a major change, at a time when there is also concern at the reduction in new game content through the changes to the quarterly release schedules. It also threatens the stability of the existing database as the risk of things being corrupted in such a major structural change is great (as openly acknowledged by ZOS). Unless those who want it are prepared to pay a very substantial price for it the introduction of a class change token would also remove a lot of the existing revenue through the resulting lost sales of skyshards, skill lines and other things in the Crown Store.

ZOS has the money to make this happen. They have massive resources behind them. Sometimes in game development you spend money to make the game better, even if it does not generate initial income (a better/more fun game overall will generatre more revenue over time). They can hire a second team to make it happen without any effect on creating new content.

There is literally no reason for ZOS not to implement this feature outside of willingness to do so.

That being said. I would not like to see a class change token.

[edited to remove quote]

Shagreth · January 27

Tandor wrote: »

That's flat out wrong. It diverts a lot of developer time and resources away from everything else, for what is clearly a major change, at a time when there is also concern at the reduction in new game content through the changes to the quarterly release schedules. It also threatens the stability of the existing database as the risk of things being corrupted in such a major structural change is great (as openly acknowledged by ZOS). Unless those who want it are prepared to pay a very substantial price for it the introduction of a class change token would also remove a lot of the existing revenue through the resulting lost sales of skyshards, skill lines and other things in the Crown Store.

We are in no position to worry about the financials of Zenimax, nor should we. Also, where exactly did they say that this has the potential to mess up with the stability of the database? Then again, with servers like this -- I wouldn't be surprised if things imploded after adding one more skill line or something. Last time I checked Gina mentioned that it is a difficult task, but lately I keep seeing people saying that it's "impossible". Two very different things.

And yes, I am very much prepared to pay ANY price for a class change token. This game is full of problems anyway, and the solution of Zenimax usually comes in the form of "PAY UP or live with it". I am used to it, I'm also used to most cosmetics ending up behind Crown Crates etc. You are acting like this is the first time Zenimax has charged ridiculous amounts for basic things, they are experts at this.

Lastly, imagine spending all that money they are making to create something truly extraordinary for once or overhaul X or Y feature, like I don't know, a playable Cyro or overland with different difficulties. This company has been playing it safe since 2016, stop apologizing on their behalf, we deserve better and I know they can do better.

OtarTheMad · January 27

https://eso-hub.com/en/news/why-eso-wont-have-class-change-tokens-any-time-soon

Article ain’t bad, and makes sense, at least to me.

Tandor · January 27

OtarTheMad wrote: »

https://eso-hub.com/en/news/why-eso-wont-have-class-change-tokens-any-time-soon

Article ain’t bad, and makes sense, at least to me.

I agree with much of the article, but I'm not at all convinced that a class change token would make plenty of profit as it suggests.

First, there would be substantial costs designing, implementing, and testing the introduction of tokens with resources being diverted from other things which would have to be delayed or abandoned. That would add to the current criticisms arising from the reduction in content releases as well as the perceived delays in other things like bug-fixing, QoL improvements and server performance.

Second, there are a number of things like skyshards and skill lines etc that players currently pay for in the Crown Store, sales of which would fall if players could buy a shortcut token unless it was priced so high as to contribute to the PR nightmare referred to in the article.

Where the article is interesting is in its suggestion that being able to shortcut instantly the switch to a "better" class would open the whole "Pay to Win" Pandora's Box. It's a point well made.

Sarannah · January 27

My reply taken from another thread about class change tokens:
Class change should not happen for many reasons, and should come with heavy requirements if it is ever made: Having a level 50 of that class already, and only once per year. Otherwise players will keep chasing the meta classes and it would harm the game's diversity, due to everyone running around on the same class.

Besides that, leveling is easy and players need to invest in new characters. All the stuff mentioned is what makes a new character come to life, and keeps players playing. This is how MMO's work as well.

cmetzger93 · January 27

Play how you want is ESOs slogan. If someone enjoys chasing the meta and they are willing to spend the money to change their class, then they should be able to IMO. I would change my class but not to chase the meta but for RP reasons

dk_dunkirk · January 28

Comment #94, from almost a year ago, was an official response saying, "No," and now I'm sitting here making comment #377.

Shagreth · February 21

Just started questing with my sorc to finish the base game, and dear god, overland is so boring, the power creep in this game is unreal, things really die in 1.5 spells and my build is far from optimized. I wouldn't have to do this if we had a class change token, I'd just change my NB to Sorc, and at this point I'd even pay for a frigging base game skip, usually against that kind of thing, but ESO is the worst offender.

moo_2021 · February 21

Shagreth wrote: »

Just started questing with my sorc to finish the base game, and dear god, overland is so boring, the power creep in this game is unreal, things really die in 1.5 spells and my build is far from optimized. I wouldn't have to do this if we had a class change token, I'd just change my NB to Sorc, and at this point I'd even pay for a frigging base game skip, usually against that kind of thing, but ESO is the worst offender.

Wouldn't you still have to level sorc skills?

Malyore · February 22

It's been a year I still want class change

Shagreth · February 22

moo_2021 wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Just started questing with my sorc to finish the base game, and dear god, overland is so boring, the power creep in this game is unreal, things really die in 1.5 spells and my build is far from optimized. I wouldn't have to do this if we had a class change token, I'd just change my NB to Sorc, and at this point I'd even pay for a frigging base game skip, usually against that kind of thing, but ESO is the worst offender.

Wouldn't you still have to level sorc skills?

He is maxed, everything is maxed, did so by farming. I just need the extra skill points from questing.

Tandor · February 22

Shagreth wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Just started questing with my sorc to finish the base game, and dear god, overland is so boring, the power creep in this game is unreal, things really die in 1.5 spells and my build is far from optimized. I wouldn't have to do this if we had a class change token, I'd just change my NB to Sorc, and at this point I'd even pay for a frigging base game skip, usually against that kind of thing, but ESO is the worst offender.

Wouldn't you still have to level sorc skills?

He is maxed, everything is maxed, did so by farming. I just need the extra skill points from questing.

If everything is maxed, what more skill points do you need, and can't get in other ways? You have all your class skills and CPs, what more do you need from e.g. non-class skill lines?

FelisCatus · February 23

Malyore wrote: »

It's been a year I still want class change

Same. If they plan to keep adding new classes - which is likely to happen as people will keep demanding it then we really need a class change token.

VampiricByNature · February 24

I often have to delete characters to make space for something new i'm working on. I try to keep my most advanced characters and just have a few meta chasing shells at the bottom that have 0 longevity and will inevitably be deleted when a new meta comes around.

A class change would really help people like me out. With so many ways to play, I like to do anything a group needs at any given time. It wouldn't really change me playing the game- it would change what I typically do. I can power level a character in a few hours, buy the lines I need, and be trial ready in less than a couple days if an emergency comes up. If I could keep a character, I would love to quest from scratch. Do more crafting things, make characters more finished. Instead, a few times a year, I either repurpose something or delete something.

I know some people are really against class change tokens.. but I'm not sure why. I basically do a bootleg version of it every meta change. My main is a templar healer... guess what? I don't even remember the last time I played it.

doabhi · March 2

I'm quite sad that post release we got no class change token. I really think we need one. I ended up deleting a toon to make a new slot so i could begrudgingly make a new arc toon. I would instead have liked to morph my original main in to an arcanist and gone through essentially a 'Skill reset'.

Maybe i'm Naive here, but if a Developer could chime in on my thought process, indulge me:

I get that this is all trying to change database stuff in the backed and may not be simple in practice, But couldn't you just take the current character tables and apply them to a sort of 'limbo' table for safety, then generate a "new" character sheet with the same name, copy the attributes and skill points from the 'limboed' character set to the new one as inventory and unassigned balance points? essentially making it a new character but instead of starting at zero, it has all the inventory, skill points etc copy-pasted over to it.

In the back end this is like trading an old character for a new one, but on the front end it works as a class change because you are moving all applicable data from one character over a new one and then discarding the old data once the process is complete.

So in sort the flow of logic is:
[Class change token used]
Rename Character to %Character name%__Backup -- Store Character name
Generate new character with stored name
< Import existing Sill points, inventory, appearance etc. from %Character name%__Backup
Sanity check data
Delete backup character data

Tandor · March 2

doabhi wrote: »

<snip> I ended up deleting a toon to make a new slot so i could begrudgingly make a new arc toon. <snip>

You got a free character slot with Necrom, plus another one to buy in the Crown Store. There was no need to delete a character to make an arcanist.

Sakiri · March 2

Chances are, if they add them they'd cost an exorbinant amount just to make them undesirable.

When character services are first added to games, the price is a deterrent.

BTW out of curiousity, what game allows an outright class change? Not FFXIV's job system, it's designed for that from the ground up(in fact, you used to have to level two specific jobs to specific levels in order to to get jobs rather than classes... ie: Paladin was Guardian and Conjurer)but rather outright "here, pay us money and you can change your class". Many game communities that I know of have asked this, and it's mostly meta chasers and FOTM players asking for it. To my knowledge(granted I've not played every single game), none allow you to do this.

Cooperharley · March 2

Shagreth wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

That's flat out wrong. It diverts a lot of developer time and resources away from everything else, for what is clearly a major change, at a time when there is also concern at the reduction in new game content through the changes to the quarterly release schedules. It also threatens the stability of the existing database as the risk of things being corrupted in such a major structural change is great (as openly acknowledged by ZOS). Unless those who want it are prepared to pay a very substantial price for it the introduction of a class change token would also remove a lot of the existing revenue through the resulting lost sales of skyshards, skill lines and other things in the Crown Store.

We are in no position to worry about the financials of Zenimax, nor should we. Also, where exactly did they say that this has the potential to mess up with the stability of the database? Then again, with servers like this -- I wouldn't be surprised if things imploded after adding one more skill line or something. Last time I checked Gina mentioned that it is a difficult task, but lately I keep seeing people saying that it's "impossible". Two very different things.

And yes, I am very much prepared to pay ANY price for a class change token. This game is full of problems anyway, and the solution of Zenimax usually comes in the form of "PAY UP or live with it". I am used to it, I'm also used to most cosmetics ending up behind Crown Crates etc. You are acting like this is the first time Zenimax has charged ridiculous amounts for basic things, they are experts at this.

Lastly, imagine spending all that money they are making to create something truly extraordinary for once or overhaul X or Y feature, like I don't know, a playable Cyro or overland with different difficulties. This company has been playing it safe since 2016, stop apologizing on their behalf, we deserve better and I know they can do better.

That guy argues until the end of the earth against quite literally every single suggestion post on the forums.

Check any forum post and he's there fighting against every and any suggestion. No matter the amount of logic or how you express it, he'll disagree. It's quite literally arguing with a brick wall lol.

Class change tokens absolutely & unequivocally would not negatively impact another player's day to day life in ESO. The argument about development time being taken away from other things can be applied to quite literally any addition to ESO as it's the argument of opportunity cost, which will be apparent in every single development decision for any game until that game shuts down. It's a very popular ask and has been for quite some time. I totally agree with you.

The only reason we haven't seen it is because of what Gina says - it's due to technical limitations on their end. If they fix that stuff, I guarantee you we'll see it. They didn't say it's impossible, it's just not something they're looking at (or were looking at at that time) due to those limitations. But their technology and resources improve every year so who knows!

Tandor · March 2

Cooperharley wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

That's flat out wrong. It diverts a lot of developer time and resources away from everything else, for what is clearly a major change, at a time when there is also concern at the reduction in new game content through the changes to the quarterly release schedules. It also threatens the stability of the existing database as the risk of things being corrupted in such a major structural change is great (as openly acknowledged by ZOS). Unless those who want it are prepared to pay a very substantial price for it the introduction of a class change token would also remove a lot of the existing revenue through the resulting lost sales of skyshards, skill lines and other things in the Crown Store.

We are in no position to worry about the financials of Zenimax, nor should we. Also, where exactly did they say that this has the potential to mess up with the stability of the database? Then again, with servers like this -- I wouldn't be surprised if things imploded after adding one more skill line or something. Last time I checked Gina mentioned that it is a difficult task, but lately I keep seeing people saying that it's "impossible". Two very different things.

And yes, I am very much prepared to pay ANY price for a class change token. This game is full of problems anyway, and the solution of Zenimax usually comes in the form of "PAY UP or live with it". I am used to it, I'm also used to most cosmetics ending up behind Crown Crates etc. You are acting like this is the first time Zenimax has charged ridiculous amounts for basic things, they are experts at this.

Lastly, imagine spending all that money they are making to create something truly extraordinary for once or overhaul X or Y feature, like I don't know, a playable Cyro or overland with different difficulties. This company has been playing it safe since 2016, stop apologizing on their behalf, we deserve better and I know they can do better.

That guy argues until the end of the earth against quite literally every single suggestion post on the forums.

Check any forum post and he's there fighting against every and any suggestion. No matter the amount of logic or how you express it, he'll disagree. It's quite literally arguing with a brick wall lol.

Class change tokens absolutely & unequivocally would not negatively impact another player's day to day life in ESO. The argument about development time being taken away from other things can be applied to quite literally any addition to ESO as it's the argument of opportunity cost, which will be apparent in every single development decision for any game until that game shuts down. It's a very popular ask and has been for quite some time. I totally agree with you.

The only reason we haven't seen it is because of what Gina says - it's due to technical limitations on their end. If they fix that stuff, I guarantee you we'll see it. They didn't say it's impossible, it's just not something they're looking at (or were looking at at that time) due to those limitations. But their technology and resources improve every year so who knows!

Apart from the auction house threads, of course, and in some other cases I don't argue against the principle of a suggested change, merely against it being forced rather than optional - as with account-wide achievements, for example. I also often suggest that players only embrace a suggested change by being careful what they wish for, as with account-wide skyshards, for example, which people put forward expecting them to be freely available when it was obvious they'd be in the Crown Store.

If I think a change would be good for the game, and where appropriate would be optional, I'll back it. However, I like the game as it is and it's just as valid for me to argue that the game should stay that way as it is for someone else to call for it to be changed to meet their individual wishes.

FelisCatus · March 2

Shagreth wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

That's flat out wrong. It diverts a lot of developer time and resources away from everything else, for what is clearly a major change, at a time when there is also concern at the reduction in new game content through the changes to the quarterly release schedules. It also threatens the stability of the existing database as the risk of things being corrupted in such a major structural change is great (as openly acknowledged by ZOS). Unless those who want it are prepared to pay a very substantial price for it the introduction of a class change token would also remove a lot of the existing revenue through the resulting lost sales of skyshards, skill lines and other things in the Crown Store.

We are in no position to worry about the financials of Zenimax, nor should we. Also, where exactly did they say that this has the potential to mess up with the stability of the database? Then again, with servers like this -- I wouldn't be surprised if things imploded after adding one more skill line or something. Last time I checked Gina mentioned that it is a difficult task, but lately I keep seeing people saying that it's "impossible". Two very different things.

And yes, I am very much prepared to pay ANY price for a class change token. This game is full of problems anyway, and the solution of Zenimax usually comes in the form of "PAY UP or live with it". I am used to it, I'm also used to most cosmetics ending up behind Crown Crates etc. You are acting like this is the first time Zenimax has charged ridiculous amounts for basic things, they are experts at this.

Lastly, imagine spending all that money they are making to create something truly extraordinary for once or overhaul X or Y feature, like I don't know, a playable Cyro or overland with different difficulties. This company has been playing it safe since 2016, stop apologizing on their behalf, we deserve better and I know they can do better.

Well said.

Castagere · March 3

It's too bad they can't do something like what Swtor did with a class story. People who have been here for a while are just sick of having to repeat the same main story quest along with Caldells silver and gold quest line which is silly because you would explore the game world on your own. They need to trim the fat so to speak. Make it a reward for completing these quests on other characters. But also an option if you don't mind repeating those quests for the hundredth time.