nerf siege

MihailioG

Didnt read thread but this is out of control,ppl refuse to use skills just make 50k hp tanks with elf bane and coldharbor balistas and sieging even 2 guys vs 30. This is not normal :

BlakMarket

Lumsdenml wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

BenTSG wrote: »

There is lots of things wrong in Cyrodill at the moment. Siege is not one of them, it is meant to hurt. If you're being targetted by multiple people and kept in place and killed by siege, then that's just being outplayed. It's PvP, you're not a god and you're going to die. Then again you go around hate whispering people just because you couldn't kill them in a 1v1, so I'd say that says a lot

[snip]

There are two counters to this. 1) move. 2) cleanse.

[snip] this is not always possible at all. I have spoke about this many times already in this thread. Please actually try and fight outnumbered whilst getting pummelled by siege before making such [snip] comments.

If it was easy as you suggest then this thread would not even exist and I wouldnt be back here every day reinforcing my points on siege. [snip]

I'm not sure why you think they are "silly" because those are all actual counters. I have placed siege in open fields and have been killed by players moving faster than a slow siege can move and attacking me on the siege. I've also been on the other end where the group pushes the siege in order to counter it.

There are also counters to CC. There are skills as well as pots that give you CC immunity. That is a counter to your issue. If you are 4v20, you probably should lose the fight and that is not the fault of the siege.

I have fought outnumber plenty of times, and have been in the situation you described, but never once did I think that siege needs to be nerfed. My thoughts were that we were outnumbered, we did our best, rez up and try again.

[snip], and if you say you fought outnumbered i somehow dont believe it, because you think 4v20 should be auto death for the 4. just saying move or cleanse is like telling a trial group "just dps the boss". [snip]

I would not say auto death, but at least 99% death. Are you dismissing my experience fighting siege in an open field? The answer is push the siege, every time. If you are that outnumbered, you die. Im not sure how popping an unstoppable pot and being quicker than slow siege is "silly" because it works.

[Edited for Quote]

Dont you only play non proc cyro though? Where proc sets and cp dont buff siege?

VaranisArano

Loooree wrote: »

- can be used from a safe spot so you take 0 risk while using it (keep walls etc)
- gives the strongest DoT in the game that results in around 40k damage over the duration
- works with proc sets like vicious death or elf bane
- it can hit multiple targets with 1 hit
- sometimes red circle is literally invisible
- if you purge it you risk nuking yourself and your team mates with plaguebreak
- damage ticks are no longer blockable and they are no longer dodgable. Once you get hit you are destined to face tank 40k+ damage

I see people in this thread saying it's balanced because "cyro big map and it was designed for zergy zergy ooga booga so it shouldn't be allowed to kill bigger groups that can also siege you. Oh and if you don't like it you can go to IC and hope for an enemy group bigger than 2 people or you can go battlegrounds and play flag games." Wow, thanks.

I don't think this says quite what you think it does.

1. Siege can be used from keep walls...isn't that obvious? It's literally designed to defend and attack objectives. But is it safe?

Nope. Not once your alliance breaks open the doors. Not while your alliance sets up countersiege. I can't tell you how many people I've seen die on keep walls because they didn't move out of the attacking siege. It's pretty deadly, especially when the attacking alliance sets up siege on the walls opposite the inner keep...

...oh, wait, small scale 4-man groups don't have the manpower to set up attacking siege, break open the doors, or countersiege the inner keep. Huh. It's almost like Cyrodiil is balanced for large scale battles for faction objectives. Not for small group farming. If the enemy is safe hurling siege from behind their inner walls because you chose to play small-scale instead of calling on your faction, who's fault is that?

2. Siege can hit multiple targets with one hit. Again...isn't the reason obvious? Cyrodiil is designed for large battles, not pew-pew 1v1 duels. When a full raid runs up to my keep's front door, my oils had better be able to hit multiple targets in one hit or else its useless for its intended purpose.

Please note that in this thread we have 4-man groups complaining that zergs of defending players needed to use multiple siege to defend their keep against them. Literally, that siege + zergs shouldn't be powerful enough to force 4 players from a keep or that a full raid + siege should force 1 player from a tower.

How useless do you want to make siege?

3. If you purge, you risk Plaguebreak.

Yep. But the reason it's true only goes to show why siege is not balanced around the experiences of small-scalers and 1vXers. It's balanced around the most powerful players in Cyrodill: ball groups. ZOS wants siege to feel impactful against ball groups because it's one of the few accessible counters to them. You think that a 4-man group should be able to survive zergs and that siege is the only problem? Good ball groups are even harder to kill.

That's why Plaguebreak was added, so that ball groups couldn't spam Purge. We used to. Now, ball groups HOT spam instead and just overheal through siege damage.

Siege has been a primary counter to ball groups for years and continues to be so in the Live Servers. If you nerf siege, you'll be doing even less damage to ball groups. That's a bad thing for Cyrodiil as a whole and for every player who's every tried to push a farming ball group out of their home keep. (And please, don't try to argue that siege should be nerfed now from hypotheticals about how ZOS will totally successfully address heal spam. I'll believe it when I see it.)


Finally, bugs. Bugs aren't a good reason to ask for nerfs. They are a great reason to ask for fixes.

I'm pretty sure proc sets and siege interactions is a bug. If so, ZOS should fix it.

I'm pretty sure the red circle not showing up is either a bug or a performance issue. Either way, ZOS should fix it.

I'm unsure what the intended behavior is re: blocking and dodging siege. I can't find a patch note on it. Nevertheless, if it's a bug, ZOS should fix it.

Loooree

"Siege can be used from keep walls...isn't that obvious? It's literally designed to defend and attack objectives. But is it safe?"

Yes it is obvious large scale battles and objectives bla bla. Is it safe? It is. As an attacker you can't use the strongest siege weapon in the game that is coldfire ballista. The only countersiege you can place are trebs. Now try to use your countersiege that shoots 1 projectile per 10 seconds while also sieging the door. Yeah I don't doubt you could see guys who desynced and just took the treb hit to the face. We play eso right.

"If the enemy is safe hurling siege from behind their inner walls because you chose to play small-scale instead of calling on your faction, who's fault is that?"

Game designer's. They literally made "low risk, high reward" mechanic that actually rewards you for not facing your enemy.

"Siege can hit multiple targets with one hit. Again...isn't the reason obvious? Cyrodiil is designed for large battles, not pew-pew 1v1 duels. When a full raid runs up to my keep's front door, my oils had better be able to hit multiple targets in one hit or else its useless for its intended purpose."

I mean after this there is no point to keep discussing this anymore. I will tell you that something is overpowered, you will answer "but it's the game design and it was supposed to be zerg vs zerg so it's okay for sieges to hit 10k per second".

"Please note that in this thread we have 4-man groups complaining that zergs of defending players needed to use multiple siege to defend their keep against them. Literally, that siege + zergs shouldn't be powerful enough to force 4 players from a keep or that a full raid + siege should force 1 player from a tower."

I think they complain more about the fact that they can kill enemy players (maybe because they use specific group setup, maybe they are good, maybe both, maybe some other reason idk) until the enemy starts using obviously the strongest and most overpowered weapon that exists in the game and that this weapon became even stronger as you can't block it anymore or roll the ticks.

"How useless do you want to make siege?"

Try healing yourself while standing in a meatbag/oil, try to maintain your magicka while getting hit by lightning ballista all the time. I'm not in ZOS's head, but I think sieges should be support tools, something few people use to support the rest of the zerg, not the main damage tool. Try looking at any group's log. Siege will always be far above any other skill or damage source.

"Yep. But the reason it's true only goes to show why siege is not balanced around the experiences of small-scalers and 1vXers. It's balanced around the most powerful players in Cyrodill: ball groups. ZOS wants siege to feel impactful against ball groups because it's one of the few accessible counters to them. You think that a 4-man group should be able to survive zergs and that siege is the only problem? Good ball groups are even harder to kill."

I say good organised groups of players should be able to kill a lot. I know ZOS really dislikes organised teamplay, but giving random players the strongest weapon in the game to fight then without risk is not the answer I think.

"Siege has been a primary counter to ball groups for years and continues to be so in the Live Servers. If you nerf siege, you'll be doing even less damage to ball groups."

If you nerf overpowered weapon, you'll be doing even less damage to organised groups. Fine by me. I don't mind.

"That's why Plaguebreak was added, so that ball groups couldn't spam Purge. We used to. Now, ball groups HOT spam instead and just overheal through siege damage."

Shocking, good groups adapt to changes. They can't purge so they now have more healers and more hots. Siege still op btw.

"Siege has been a primary counter to ball groups for years and continues to be so in the Live Servers. If you nerf siege, you'll be doing even less damage to ball groups. That's a bad thing for Cyrodiil as a whole and for every player who's every tried to push a farming ball group out of their home keep."

Bla bla people will be sad they can't kill a group in a keep because siege can't take 30% of someone's hp in 1 tick anymore it's a tragedy for everybody and everyone will quit the game.

"I'm pretty sure proc sets and siege interactions is a bug. If so, ZOS should fix it.
I'm pretty sure the red circle not showing up is either a bug or a performance issue. Either way, ZOS should fix it.
I'm unsure what the intended behavior is re: blocking and dodging siege. I can't find a patch note on it. Nevertheless, if it's a bug, ZOS should fix it."

You could always block and dodge siege in the past, so I guess it was the original design? You seem to like what's original design a lot (it was always zergy zergy, it was always about the keeps, it was always a tool against ballgroups) things can't change to be more fair because that could mess up original design of the game and that's just not acceptable.

It's really beyond me how can people say it's not OP. I can operate 1 coldfire and score like 10 kills in 1 minute while staying 100% safe on my keep wall. Imagine what would happen if I could shoot organised group trying to escape zerg chasing them.

"But the design was large scale battles what do you expect?"

TechMaybeHic

2 problems with siege.

1. Telegraphs are often very delayed if they show at all

2.. Damage from the sticky DOTs are a death sentence.

Either might be ok without the other

Marcus684

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

2 problems with siege.

1. Telegraphs are often very delayed if they show at all

2.. Damage from the sticky DOTs are a death sentence.

Either might be ok without the other

Yeah, the problems with the telegraph can make siege much more of a problem, but there is still a solution: slot a purge.

Everyone compensated for the proliferation of Plaguebreak by removing purges from their builds and just stacking heals and/or resists, which makes siege, which used to be laughably ineffective against well-built soloers and small-groupers, much more deadly.

tl;dr - if you're going to 1-4vX in front of a keep and NOT run a purge to deal with the inevitable siege, that's on you.

Lumsdenml

BlakMarket wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

BenTSG wrote: »

There is lots of things wrong in Cyrodill at the moment. Siege is not one of them, it is meant to hurt. If you're being targetted by multiple people and kept in place and killed by siege, then that's just being outplayed. It's PvP, you're not a god and you're going to die. Then again you go around hate whispering people just because you couldn't kill them in a 1v1, so I'd say that says a lot

[snip]

There are two counters to this. 1) move. 2) cleanse.

[snip] this is not always possible at all. I have spoke about this many times already in this thread. Please actually try and fight outnumbered whilst getting pummelled by siege before making such [snip] comments.

If it was easy as you suggest then this thread would not even exist and I wouldnt be back here every day reinforcing my points on siege. [snip]

I'm not sure why you think they are "silly" because those are all actual counters. I have placed siege in open fields and have been killed by players moving faster than a slow siege can move and attacking me on the siege. I've also been on the other end where the group pushes the siege in order to counter it.

There are also counters to CC. There are skills as well as pots that give you CC immunity. That is a counter to your issue. If you are 4v20, you probably should lose the fight and that is not the fault of the siege.

I have fought outnumber plenty of times, and have been in the situation you described, but never once did I think that siege needs to be nerfed. My thoughts were that we were outnumbered, we did our best, rez up and try again.

[snip], and if you say you fought outnumbered i somehow dont believe it, because you think 4v20 should be auto death for the 4. just saying move or cleanse is like telling a trial group "just dps the boss". [snip]

I would not say auto death, but at least 99% death. Are you dismissing my experience fighting siege in an open field? The answer is push the siege, every time. If you are that outnumbered, you die. Im not sure how popping an unstoppable pot and being quicker than slow siege is "silly" because it works.

[Edited for Quote]

Dont you only play non proc cyro though? Where proc sets and cp dont buff siege?

No, rarely play no proc. U50 and Grey Host lately.

jarlragnar

Siege is not the problem, just the other night in Blackreach EP had siege plus boots on the ground for 20 minutes and not one person from the AD ball group died. That to me is a major problem, how can you out heal all that damage, have all those shields and not a single person die? I was on a cold fire ballista, 10+ more siege hitting the group and no one died. That doesn’t make the game fun anymore, I just runaway and attack something else on the map.

Marcus684

jarlragnar wrote: »

Siege is not the problem, just the other night in Blackreach EP had siege plus boots on the ground for 20 minutes and not one person from the AD ball group died. That to me is a major problem, how can you out heal all that damage, have all those shields and not a single person die? I was on a cold fire ballista, 10+ more siege hitting the group and no one died. That doesn’t make the game fun anymore, I just runaway and attack something else on the map.

The difference is that ball groups can and will include siege damage mitigation in their design, while good soloers and small-scalers don't because 1) they don't want to use the bar space, and 2) most of them know there's better ways to avoid siege damage (positioning and mobility).

The OP and his supporters have chosen a different way: ask for a nerf.

Sun7dance

MihailioG wrote: »

[...]

Anyone defending this is not a PvP player at all.

Can't you see the real problem from your screenshots?

PuddingZebra

Instead of nerfing siege damage, how about adding more ways to mitigate some of the DoTs/debuffs provided by sieges.

Purge isnt really an option due to the prevalence of plaguebreak.
How about we do something like:

Change 1 of the purge morphs to no longer purge any other effects EXCEPT siege/cyrodiil related debuffs.
Add a synergy to (either of) the siege shield skill that allows you to 1-time cleanse all siege effects on you.

i think stuff like this would provide a way more interactive way of countering/dealing with sieges. as well as breathe some life in underutilized skills.

Mayrael

nuttytom wrote: »

should this happen when already fighting vs heavily outnumbered?

(plenty more screens for you if you need btw)

So it took 7 ticks of strongest siege to kill you?

I think sieges should be buffed.

I remember, when sieges were bugged and dealt twice as much damage, completely ignoring any defenses. Those were some of the most fun moments in Cyrodiil. Ballgroups nearly disappeared because two people with Coldharbour Ballistae could destroy them. People played very spread out, sieges weren't just about attacking the gate because it was too narrow of a bottleneck, so wall sieges became a thing again. It was an incredible time.

Jymmy

If people don't think the damage should be nerfed, then it should be nerfed in other ways.

- It should not be able to interact with sets, such as elf bane or vicious death.
- Either reduce the range, the AoE size, or increase the reload time.
- Restrict the DoT to tick only while standing in the AoE.
- Make the initial hit blockable.

High damage needs to come with high risk.

cyclonus11

The high risk is the immobility, the long recast time, and the vulnerability.

geonsocal

in open field alliance combat you can use sieges to control the flow of the fight...set one down and pretty much guaranteed folks will come your way...

i'm on DC, so i spend a lot of time fighting at nikel, great place for setting up a ballista or catapult...

last week i remember we had 2 unwanted guests inside our keep...set up a cold-fire ballista and started firing away...after two minutes i put it away - had absolutely no effect on those two enemy toons..i don't know, maybe the meatbag would have been more effective...

even solo you can really make it tough for a disorganized group to take a keep...a couple of oils over the door to move them off a ram, then set down a cold-fire ballista and a meatbag catapult - may just give you enough time for alliance reinforcements to show up to save the day...

all that to say - leave siege alone, hopefully one day when performance catches up to promises - non-telegraphed siege won't be such an issue it is today...

i kill more people with siege than any skill, proc set or weapon that's in the game...

i do that because - siege is a part of the game...

kingsim3000

I tried this meta siegeling built and ive to say, its gotta be illegal!

Holycannoli

At least Elf Bane won't affect siege in the next patch.

KiltMaster

I ain't reading all that

But the good news is that elf bane won't extend siege as of august 21

that will solve some of the issues

Lumsdenml

Please buff siege

Jaraal

KiltMaster wrote: »

I ain't reading all that

But the good news is that elf bane won't extend siege as of august 21

that will solve some of the issues

The bigger question is, what will the unintended fallout be? There's always proven to be a good chance that a "fix" breaks something else in the process. Plus there are still sets that proc off siege, years after they said siege will no longer proc sets.

danwtayl

In my view the only siege that needs to be toned down are oil pots. Either the damage, places it can deployed, or the amount that can be placed in any given area. As it stands today, you can ram a keep if the holder deploys max oils. The ram melts before you can hit the door.

I do also believe that folks overly crutch on siege but what's one to do? I hate the playstyle but understand why they do it.

One thing I'd love to see is that there is a limited amount of siege available during a campaign per alliance. One they run out, they can't buy anymore. Maybe put in ways to craft it so your not completely SOL.

Also, I'd love to see a achievement for burning a number of lancers. One of my favor things to do

Necrotech_Master

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Please buff siege

meatbags are getting buffed in u39 lol (+17% dmg per tick against players)

they, however, are nerfing elf bane working with siege

DUTCH_REAPER

Buff siege and make ball groups pay.

Lumsdenml

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Please buff siege

meatbags are getting buffed in u39 lol (+17% dmg per tick against players)

they, however, are nerfing elf bane working with siege

That's awesome! Would have preferred a 200% buff, but I'll take what I can get!

Jaraal

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Please buff siege

meatbags are getting buffed in u39 lol (+17% dmg per tick against players)

they, however, are nerfing elf bane working with siege

That's awesome! Would have preferred a 200% buff, but I'll take what I can get!

Just an FYI: if you go to camera settings and choose "constrained" as the default siege view option, you get an overhead view that fixes the limited sight lines of meatbags and lancers. Maybe if more people were aware of this simple QOL benefit, they would be encouraged to use them more.

And for PC users, there's an addon that lets you toggle from constrained to normal view with one keypress or mouse wheel roll.

BenTSG

Jaraal wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Please buff siege

meatbags are getting buffed in u39 lol (+17% dmg per tick against players)

they, however, are nerfing elf bane working with siege

That's awesome! Would have preferred a 200% buff, but I'll take what I can get!

And for PC users, there's an addon that lets you toggle from constrained to normal view with one keypress or mouse wheel roll.

Oh really? Do you happen to know what it's called? My camera setting keeps changing back to what I had last when I change it and it's annoying to keep changing back. Being able to switch between them on the fly sounds quite nice

Jaraal

BenTSG wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Please buff siege

meatbags are getting buffed in u39 lol (+17% dmg per tick against players)

they, however, are nerfing elf bane working with siege

That's awesome! Would have preferred a 200% buff, but I'll take what I can get!

And for PC users, there's an addon that lets you toggle from constrained to normal view with one keypress or mouse wheel roll.

Oh really? Do you happen to know what it's called? My camera setting keeps changing back to what I had last when I change it and it's annoying to keep changing back. Being able to switch between them on the fly sounds quite nice

It's called "Siege Camera Toggle."

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1205-SiegeCameraToggle.html

Holycannoli

danwtayl wrote: »

In my view the only siege that needs to be toned down are oil pots. Either the damage, places it can deployed, or the amount that can be placed in any given area. As it stands today, you can ram a keep if the holder deploys max oils. The ram melts before you can hit the door.

I do also believe that folks overly crutch on siege but what's one to do? I hate the playstyle but understand why they do it.

One thing I'd love to see is that there is a limited amount of siege available during a campaign per alliance. One they run out, they can't buy anymore. Maybe put in ways to craft it so your not completely SOL.

Also, I'd love to see a achievement for burning a number of lancers. One of my favor things to do

We need a max of ONE siege deployed per person. Not two, not a field of them, but ONE.

TybaltKaine

I honestly don't understand how this has gone on so long.

Siege engines are used to defend areas that you control or to take areas you want to control. Full stop.

Running around a tower daring people to "fight me loser" when they can just, not. I dunno what to tell you. I mean, I'm just not going to enter that tower. I'll try it once to see if you are good, if you beat me, I'll advise my team to use ranged attacks and siege the literal tower you are defending from to take the objective.

Out in the open world and see a giant group coming toward you and your three friends? Maybe move out of the way, or shadow them to see where they are going. Set up a defense at the destination instead of thinking "I and my mighty team of stalwart defenders can stop a literal army on our own".

They stopped to set up siege because you were actually holding the front, then take it as a compliment on your skill and that they assumed you were a larger counter attacking force.

Maybe stop assuming large groups are full of unskilled players? Assume everyone you fight can and will beat you, so that you fight your best. Thinking you are superior to an enemy is how you lose.

1vXing a keep is dumb, and yeah, you are gonna get hit with siege. I'm defending my keep and you might just be a scout or there to set up siege for a large group. You are a valid target and will catch these bolts and whatever else I can hurl that is large and hurts.

Busting down the door and seeing siege in the courtyard? Of course! It's a defense! You just came through a door with 100k HP, yes, I'm going to fire heavy and large objects at you while my archers attack from height and distance.

The only time I should ever be fighting against a person in a keep is at the flags. Even then, I'm on their turf so I expect even more defenses set up to keep me from winning.

This whole thread makes my head hurt. Use siege shield. Use purge. Use tactics.

If you want big crazy fights to defend an area IC has you covered. If you want team battles of small groups on equal footing BG's has you covered. If you want 1v1, Duels are a thing.

If you want to go to war, Cyrodiil is where you go, and in war the objective is to kill the other guy while not letting them kill you, however you can.

JUST BE THANKFUL WE AREN'T HURLING COWS OVER THE WALL AT YOU.

OBJnoob

Well said Tybalt.