nerf siege

MihailioG · March 22

Didnt read thread but this is out of control,ppl refuse to use skills just make 50k hp tanks with elf bane and coldharbor balistas and sieging even 2 guys vs 30. This is not normal :

Anyone defending this is not a PvP player at all.

BlakMarket · March 22

Lumsdenml wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

BenTSG wrote: »

There is lots of things wrong in Cyrodill at the moment. Siege is not one of them, it is meant to hurt. If you're being targetted by multiple people and kept in place and killed by siege, then that's just being outplayed. It's PvP, you're not a god and you're going to die. Then again you go around hate whispering people just because you couldn't kill them in a 1v1, so I'd say that says a lot

[snip]

There are two counters to this. 1) move. 2) cleanse.

[snip] this is not always possible at all. I have spoke about this many times already in this thread. Please actually try and fight outnumbered whilst getting pummelled by siege before making such [snip] comments.

If it was easy as you suggest then this thread would not even exist and I wouldnt be back here every day reinforcing my points on siege. [snip]

I'm not sure why you think they are "silly" because those are all actual counters. I have placed siege in open fields and have been killed by players moving faster than a slow siege can move and attacking me on the siege. I've also been on the other end where the group pushes the siege in order to counter it.

There are also counters to CC. There are skills as well as pots that give you CC immunity. That is a counter to your issue. If you are 4v20, you probably should lose the fight and that is not the fault of the siege.

I have fought outnumber plenty of times, and have been in the situation you described, but never once did I think that siege needs to be nerfed. My thoughts were that we were outnumbered, we did our best, rez up and try again.

[snip], and if you say you fought outnumbered i somehow dont believe it, because you think 4v20 should be auto death for the 4. just saying move or cleanse is like telling a trial group "just dps the boss". [snip]

I would not say auto death, but at least 99% death. Are you dismissing my experience fighting siege in an open field? The answer is push the siege, every time. If you are that outnumbered, you die. Im not sure how popping an unstoppable pot and being quicker than slow siege is "silly" because it works.

[Edited for Quote]

Dont you only play non proc cyro though? Where proc sets and cp dont buff siege?

VaranisArano · March 22

Loooree wrote: »

- can be used from a safe spot so you take 0 risk while using it (keep walls etc)
- gives the strongest DoT in the game that results in around 40k damage over the duration
- works with proc sets like vicious death or elf bane
- it can hit multiple targets with 1 hit
- sometimes red circle is literally invisible
- if you purge it you risk nuking yourself and your team mates with plaguebreak
- damage ticks are no longer blockable and they are no longer dodgable. Once you get hit you are destined to face tank 40k+ damage

I see people in this thread saying it's balanced because "cyro big map and it was designed for zergy zergy ooga booga so it shouldn't be allowed to kill bigger groups that can also siege you. Oh and if you don't like it you can go to IC and hope for an enemy group bigger than 2 people or you can go battlegrounds and play flag games." Wow, thanks.

I don't think this says quite what you think it does.

1. Siege can be used from keep walls...isn't that obvious? It's literally designed to defend and attack objectives. But is it safe?

Nope. Not once your alliance breaks open the doors. Not while your alliance sets up countersiege. I can't tell you how many people I've seen die on keep walls because they didn't move out of the attacking siege. It's pretty deadly, especially when the attacking alliance sets up siege on the walls opposite the inner keep...

...oh, wait, small scale 4-man groups don't have the manpower to set up attacking siege, break open the doors, or countersiege the inner keep. Huh. It's almost like Cyrodiil is balanced for large scale battles for faction objectives. Not for small group farming. If the enemy is safe hurling siege from behind their inner walls because you chose to play small-scale instead of calling on your faction, who's fault is that?

2. Siege can hit multiple targets with one hit. Again...isn't the reason obvious? Cyrodiil is designed for large battles, not pew-pew 1v1 duels. When a full raid runs up to my keep's front door, my oils had better be able to hit multiple targets in one hit or else its useless for its intended purpose.

Please note that in this thread we have 4-man groups complaining that zergs of defending players needed to use multiple siege to defend their keep against them. Literally, that siege + zergs shouldn't be powerful enough to force 4 players from a keep or that a full raid + siege should force 1 player from a tower.

How useless do you want to make siege?

3. If you purge, you risk Plaguebreak.

Yep. But the reason it's true only goes to show why siege is not balanced around the experiences of small-scalers and 1vXers. It's balanced around the most powerful players in Cyrodill: ball groups. ZOS wants siege to feel impactful against ball groups because it's one of the few accessible counters to them. You think that a 4-man group should be able to survive zergs and that siege is the only problem? Good ball groups are even harder to kill.

That's why Plaguebreak was added, so that ball groups couldn't spam Purge. We used to. Now, ball groups HOT spam instead and just overheal through siege damage.

Siege has been a primary counter to ball groups for years and continues to be so in the Live Servers. If you nerf siege, you'll be doing even less damage to ball groups. That's a bad thing for Cyrodiil as a whole and for every player who's every tried to push a farming ball group out of their home keep. (And please, don't try to argue that siege should be nerfed now from hypotheticals about how ZOS will totally successfully address heal spam. I'll believe it when I see it.)

Finally, bugs. Bugs aren't a good reason to ask for nerfs. They are a great reason to ask for fixes.

I'm pretty sure proc sets and siege interactions is a bug. If so, ZOS should fix it.

I'm pretty sure the red circle not showing up is either a bug or a performance issue. Either way, ZOS should fix it.

I'm unsure what the intended behavior is re: blocking and dodging siege. I can't find a patch note on it. Nevertheless, if it's a bug, ZOS should fix it.

Loooree · March 23

"Siege can be used from keep walls...isn't that obvious? It's literally designed to defend and attack objectives. But is it safe?"

Yes it is obvious large scale battles and objectives bla bla. Is it safe? It is. As an attacker you can't use the strongest siege weapon in the game that is coldfire ballista. The only countersiege you can place are trebs. Now try to use your countersiege that shoots 1 projectile per 10 seconds while also sieging the door. Yeah I don't doubt you could see guys who desynced and just took the treb hit to the face. We play eso right.

"If the enemy is safe hurling siege from behind their inner walls because you chose to play small-scale instead of calling on your faction, who's fault is that?"

Game designer's. They literally made "low risk, high reward" mechanic that actually rewards you for not facing your enemy.

"Siege can hit multiple targets with one hit. Again...isn't the reason obvious? Cyrodiil is designed for large battles, not pew-pew 1v1 duels. When a full raid runs up to my keep's front door, my oils had better be able to hit multiple targets in one hit or else its useless for its intended purpose."

I mean after this there is no point to keep discussing this anymore. I will tell you that something is overpowered, you will answer "but it's the game design and it was supposed to be zerg vs zerg so it's okay for sieges to hit 10k per second".

"Please note that in this thread we have 4-man groups complaining that zergs of defending players needed to use multiple siege to defend their keep against them. Literally, that siege + zergs shouldn't be powerful enough to force 4 players from a keep or that a full raid + siege should force 1 player from a tower."

I think they complain more about the fact that they can kill enemy players (maybe because they use specific group setup, maybe they are good, maybe both, maybe some other reason idk) until the enemy starts using obviously the strongest and most overpowered weapon that exists in the game and that this weapon became even stronger as you can't block it anymore or roll the ticks.

"How useless do you want to make siege?"

Try healing yourself while standing in a meatbag/oil, try to maintain your magicka while getting hit by lightning ballista all the time. I'm not in ZOS's head, but I think sieges should be support tools, something few people use to support the rest of the zerg, not the main damage tool. Try looking at any group's log. Siege will always be far above any other skill or damage source.

"Yep. But the reason it's true only goes to show why siege is not balanced around the experiences of small-scalers and 1vXers. It's balanced around the most powerful players in Cyrodill: ball groups. ZOS wants siege to feel impactful against ball groups because it's one of the few accessible counters to them. You think that a 4-man group should be able to survive zergs and that siege is the only problem? Good ball groups are even harder to kill."

I say good organised groups of players should be able to kill a lot. I know ZOS really dislikes organised teamplay, but giving random players the strongest weapon in the game to fight then without risk is not the answer I think.

"Siege has been a primary counter to ball groups for years and continues to be so in the Live Servers. If you nerf siege, you'll be doing even less damage to ball groups."

If you nerf overpowered weapon, you'll be doing even less damage to organised groups. Fine by me. I don't mind.

"That's why Plaguebreak was added, so that ball groups couldn't spam Purge. We used to. Now, ball groups HOT spam instead and just overheal through siege damage."

Shocking, good groups adapt to changes. They can't purge so they now have more healers and more hots. Siege still op btw.

"Siege has been a primary counter to ball groups for years and continues to be so in the Live Servers. If you nerf siege, you'll be doing even less damage to ball groups. That's a bad thing for Cyrodiil as a whole and for every player who's every tried to push a farming ball group out of their home keep."

Bla bla people will be sad they can't kill a group in a keep because siege can't take 30% of someone's hp in 1 tick anymore it's a tragedy for everybody and everyone will quit the game.

"I'm pretty sure proc sets and siege interactions is a bug. If so, ZOS should fix it.
I'm pretty sure the red circle not showing up is either a bug or a performance issue. Either way, ZOS should fix it.
I'm unsure what the intended behavior is re: blocking and dodging siege. I can't find a patch note on it. Nevertheless, if it's a bug, ZOS should fix it."

You could always block and dodge siege in the past, so I guess it was the original design? You seem to like what's original design a lot (it was always zergy zergy, it was always about the keeps, it was always a tool against ballgroups) things can't change to be more fair because that could mess up original design of the game and that's just not acceptable.

It's really beyond me how can people say it's not OP. I can operate 1 coldfire and score like 10 kills in 1 minute while staying 100% safe on my keep wall. Imagine what would happen if I could shoot organised group trying to escape zerg chasing them.

"But the design was large scale battles what do you expect?"

TechMaybeHic · March 23

2 problems with siege.

1. Telegraphs are often very delayed if they show at all

2.. Damage from the sticky DOTs are a death sentence.

Either might be ok without the other

Marcus684 · March 23

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

2 problems with siege.

1. Telegraphs are often very delayed if they show at all

2.. Damage from the sticky DOTs are a death sentence.

Either might be ok without the other

Yeah, the problems with the telegraph can make siege much more of a problem, but there is still a solution: slot a purge.

Everyone compensated for the proliferation of Plaguebreak by removing purges from their builds and just stacking heals and/or resists, which makes siege, which used to be laughably ineffective against well-built soloers and small-groupers, much more deadly.

tl;dr - if you're going to 1-4vX in front of a keep and NOT run a purge to deal with the inevitable siege, that's on you.

Lumsdenml · March 28

BlakMarket wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

BenTSG wrote: »

There is lots of things wrong in Cyrodill at the moment. Siege is not one of them, it is meant to hurt. If you're being targetted by multiple people and kept in place and killed by siege, then that's just being outplayed. It's PvP, you're not a god and you're going to die. Then again you go around hate whispering people just because you couldn't kill them in a 1v1, so I'd say that says a lot

[snip]

There are two counters to this. 1) move. 2) cleanse.

[snip] this is not always possible at all. I have spoke about this many times already in this thread. Please actually try and fight outnumbered whilst getting pummelled by siege before making such [snip] comments.

If it was easy as you suggest then this thread would not even exist and I wouldnt be back here every day reinforcing my points on siege. [snip]

I'm not sure why you think they are "silly" because those are all actual counters. I have placed siege in open fields and have been killed by players moving faster than a slow siege can move and attacking me on the siege. I've also been on the other end where the group pushes the siege in order to counter it.

There are also counters to CC. There are skills as well as pots that give you CC immunity. That is a counter to your issue. If you are 4v20, you probably should lose the fight and that is not the fault of the siege.

I have fought outnumber plenty of times, and have been in the situation you described, but never once did I think that siege needs to be nerfed. My thoughts were that we were outnumbered, we did our best, rez up and try again.

[snip], and if you say you fought outnumbered i somehow dont believe it, because you think 4v20 should be auto death for the 4. just saying move or cleanse is like telling a trial group "just dps the boss". [snip]

I would not say auto death, but at least 99% death. Are you dismissing my experience fighting siege in an open field? The answer is push the siege, every time. If you are that outnumbered, you die. Im not sure how popping an unstoppable pot and being quicker than slow siege is "silly" because it works.

[Edited for Quote]

Dont you only play non proc cyro though? Where proc sets and cp dont buff siege?

No, rarely play no proc. U50 and Grey Host lately.

jarlragnar · March 30

Siege is not the problem, just the other night in Blackreach EP had siege plus boots on the ground for 20 minutes and not one person from the AD ball group died. That to me is a major problem, how can you out heal all that damage, have all those shields and not a single person die? I was on a cold fire ballista, 10+ more siege hitting the group and no one died. That doesn’t make the game fun anymore, I just runaway and attack something else on the map.

Marcus684 · March 30

jarlragnar wrote: »

Siege is not the problem, just the other night in Blackreach EP had siege plus boots on the ground for 20 minutes and not one person from the AD ball group died. That to me is a major problem, how can you out heal all that damage, have all those shields and not a single person die? I was on a cold fire ballista, 10+ more siege hitting the group and no one died. That doesn’t make the game fun anymore, I just runaway and attack something else on the map.

The difference is that ball groups can and will include siege damage mitigation in their design, while good soloers and small-scalers don't because 1) they don't want to use the bar space, and 2) most of them know there's better ways to avoid siege damage (positioning and mobility).

The OP and his supporters have chosen a different way: ask for a nerf.

Sun7dance · April 5

MihailioG wrote: »

[...]

Anyone defending this is not a PvP player at all.

Can't you see the real problem from your screenshots?