nerf siege

nuttytom

Siege has been a staple of Cyrodiil combat since it was first introduced. Recent trends however have driven this game mechanic from one used for sieging keeps and shooting enemy siege to simply being used as a way to bypass the core purpose of Cyrodiil and to an extent the core combat of this game.

Having read the recently published core combat mechanics it has left some to wonder how does firing a 12,000 DPS, unblockable, undodgeable weapon at a player fit into all of this? The reality is, it doesn't. Siege fights still happen as they should but these weapons are now being deployed more aggressively on the fly to siege down individual players. There simply is no counter to this regardless of skill level and this is being utilized not just by casuals but also higher skilled players.

People are seeing the simple fact more and more of why bother to fight when you can use a weapon that has 5x even upwards 10x the damage of any damage a build is able to output. Simply add this to a more tanky player who perhaps uses sets with Elf bane or vicious death (Yes these work with siege despite players on the forum trying to say otherwise) and you have an out of control problem that with each day is becoming increasingly worse.

If PvP within Cyrodiil is to survive, could developers clarify perhaps the core values of Cyrodiil? Are we too assume this siege is to be used in place of skills? People will leap to the defense of siege claiming they use it to kill "tanky" players but this isn't just being used on such players anymore. This is now a norm for all players to use on anyone at any given opportunity. Anyone who has been to Cyrodiil will have seen this. In a way it is even being used to bypass any form of more “traditional” (open field/On the ground fights) PvP.

Should Cyrodiil continue down this trend into a "siege wars" where PvP (The reason for Cyrodiil) will take a backseat in terms of skills and fighting players on the field or should there be an adresse of the fact that siege unfortunately is reaching an out of control level.

Luke_Flamesword

Just play battlegrounds or Imperial City, lol Cyrodiil is not a deathmatch but it's war game all about keeps, sieges, etc. I also don't understand problem - sieges have cooldowns and very low mobility with long animations of puting them on/off. They are mostly used only from safe position, because on open field you don't have big chances with siege, when enemy player is on you with all skills...

zaria

Its so many almost impossible to kill troll tanks in the game that you need to use artillery to kill them.
I say we need better anti tank weapons, NLAW pls
Or an oblivion fire lancer is more realistic.

nuttytom

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Just play battlegrounds or Imperial City, lol Cyrodiil is not a deathmatch but it's war game all about keeps, sieges, etc. I also don't understand problem - sieges have cooldowns and very low mobility with long animations of puting them on/off. They are mostly used only from safe position, because on open field you don't have big chances with siege, when enemy player is on you with all skills...

I think you missed the point here, that is, siege IS being used open field, in towers, and even deployed literally on top of where players are fighting due to the fact these players who are using the siege are extremely tanky or have the safety of extreme numbers and healers on their side again defeating the purpose of using any meaningful skills or builds as you said. There is simply nothing said player can do but watch as a weapon is set up to kill them in a moment's notice. No skills will save them from this. There is simply no counter.

As for the Battlegrounds IC suggestion, it does nothing to address the fact that cyrodiil is straying from its, what I feel, core purpose. Again there is no calls for nerfing siege damage to keep as these fights are enjoyable but more what should the true purpose of siege be? To shoot down individual players with no requirement of skill, knowledge of the game and a safe bypass of PvP or their actual function of creating an environment of "epic scale" keep fights?

nuttytom

zaria wrote: »

Its so many almost impossible to kill troll tanks in the game that you need to use artillery to kill them.
I say we need better anti tank weapons, NLAW pls
Or an oblivion fire lancer is more realistic.

Troll tanks are a separate issue that yes does need addressing. Are you saying that siege is the answer for this? Should a low level inexperience player who perhaps is trying to figure out how best to use his skills be shown that simply setting up a ballista is better? You also fail to account for the fact that such tanks are using the weapons themselves so they are able to kill. Are you happy for that scenario too?

zaria

nuttytom wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Its so many almost impossible to kill troll tanks in the game that you need to use artillery to kill them.
I say we need better anti tank weapons, NLAW pls
Or an oblivion fire lancer is more realistic.

Troll tanks are a separate issue that yes does need addressing. Are you saying that siege is the answer for this? Should a low level inexperience player who perhaps is trying to figure out how best to use his skills be shown that simply setting up a ballista is better? You also fail to account for the fact that such tanks are using the weapons themselves so they are able to kill. Are you happy for that scenario too?

No, outside of keeps and long choke points fights like bridge or some times gate fights combat is way to mobile to use siege weapons. Now you can use siege in an ambush but this is a bit rare.
And troll tanks don't use siege, they use line of sight and movement in addition to be very tanky. if they stood still or fight in the open they die as line of sight is critical.
Not much of an issue for an organized group who just ignore them but pugs get distracted and want to play in towers or hump rocks with trolls. And tanky low dps buids has their place, on the ram or drawing the enemy attention in an fight.
Also healers who draw lots of damage for obvious reasons.

OBJnoob

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

nuttytom

zaria wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Its so many almost impossible to kill troll tanks in the game that you need to use artillery to kill them.
I say we need better anti tank weapons, NLAW pls
Or an oblivion fire lancer is more realistic.

Troll tanks are a separate issue that yes does need addressing. Are you saying that siege is the answer for this? Should a low level inexperience player who perhaps is trying to figure out how best to use his skills be shown that simply setting up a ballista is better? You also fail to account for the fact that such tanks are using the weapons themselves so they are able to kill. Are you happy for that scenario too?

No, outside of keeps and long choke points fights like bridge or some times gate fights combat is way to mobile to use siege weapons. Now you can use siege in an ambush but this is a bit rare.
And troll tanks don't use siege, they use line of sight and movement in addition to be very tanky. if they stood still or fight in the open they die as line of sight is critical.
Not much of an issue for an organized group who just ignore them but pugs get distracted and want to play in towers or hump rocks with trolls. And tanky low dps buids has their place, on the ram or drawing the enemy attention in an fight.
Also healers who draw lots of damage for obvious reasons.

This isn't just a bit rare. Just last night the siege was used against a mobile group. If they move the siege was easily moved too.

As for troll tanks don't use siege, either people are seeing things or you don't play Cyro that often. Many people in zone chat, and my group have seen troll tanks use siege.

Again you never answered the question. Are you advocating for a more "siege centric" Cyrodiil? Do you think its right that someone should be killed by an un-encounterable mechanic within the game mode and punished for even attempting to PvP in a more traditional way?

Necrotech_Master

OBJnoob wrote: »

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

i agree with this opinion

to elaborate, a single siege weapon generally is a non threat, especially against a zerg, when you see a keep defense you need like dozens of siege (2-3 meatbags on flags, 4+ oils on stairs and the overhangs, maybe even support ballista) and even thats sometimes not enough to counter a zerg twice your number

my pvp NB is not like uber tanky, and generally can survive getting hit by a single siege including coldfire (although coldfire hurts a lot and can still be dicey if theres other incoming dmg)

if your sieging a keep, you just need to pay attention to the red circles and dont tunnel vision trying to kill people on the ground and you will generally be fine

not to mention all siege dot are purgeable (purge hasnt been use a lot since plaguebreak was added, but plague itself is not really as bad as it was due to the 20 sec cooldown per target and if your not stacked it doesnt hurt that much)

if anything siege should be unpurgeable, that might actually make existing siege remotely dangerous lol

Elendir2am

Sieges are big problem during lag. It can be very broken then, but problem is performance, not sieges themselves. (you cannot easily avoid red circle or do self heal during lag).

Flangdoodle

I understand your frustration, but I think your solution would mean that no one would ever be able to siege a keep again - they'd be wiped out as soon as the inevitable faction zerg showed up and steamrolled them. It would be like the "siege bug" from a while back: nobody would siege keeps, they'd just camp out in the ones they have because trying to siege a new keep would be too much of a pain in the a**.

The issue isn't the strength of siege IMO (believe me it used to be worse), it's the fact that it rarely renders anymore. There is a counter, it's called getting out of the way, but how can you get out of the way of something you can't see? I have my damage indicators set to maximum brightness and have subbed the default colors to bright colors. That works for spells or other aoe's but clearly whatever code it is that applies to that damage is different than the code for siege damage. Half the time you can't see anything, so you have no warning that you're in the path of incoming siege damage. You just die and see that it killed you in the recap.

nuttytom

OBJnoob wrote: »

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

If deploying a siege in the middle of the keep fight is silly then why is it beginning to happen more often? The same argument was made for people jumping around. The argument of it "being silly" doesn't fit when there is a underlying reason. In the case of jumping its momentum and in the case of siege 1 shot 1 kill game mechanics.

If there is large AoE's from the ground while fighting another player/s then you would surprised at how hard it is to see even avoid incoming siege. A 7K DPS DoT will kill almost anyone while already fighting another.

As for the siege vs siege that's a interesting discussion. Some do argue offensive siege's have a much higher failure rate to defensive sieges in current cyro.

nuttytom

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

i agree with this opinion

to elaborate, a single siege weapon generally is a non threat, especially against a zerg, when you see a keep defense you need like dozens of siege (2-3 meatbags on flags, 4+ oils on stairs and the overhangs, maybe even support ballista) and even thats sometimes not enough to counter a zerg twice your number

my pvp NB is not like uber tanky, and generally can survive getting hit by a single siege including coldfire (although coldfire hurts a lot and can still be dicey if theres other incoming dmg)

if your sieging a keep, you just need to pay attention to the red circles and dont tunnel vision trying to kill people on the ground and you will generally be fine

not to mention all siege dot are purgeable (purge hasnt been use a lot since plaguebreak was added, but plague itself is not really as bad as it was due to the 20 sec cooldown per target and if your not stacked it doesnt hurt that much)

if anything siege should be unpurgeable, that might actually make existing siege remotely dangerous lol

solo players dont tend to place siege against a zerg because you simply dont have time to do that, so its pretty obvious that sieges arent a problem against a zerg. Another for reason is the cross healing that zergs have, which is a different issue entirely. Im talking about the massive zergs that place siege against small groups of 4-5 people (tbh even in a duo ive had siege placed on me by a zerg of 20+ people) why should a zerg be able to place siege and 30k+ dmg with coldfire, meatbags, fire ballistas etc etc when they are already massively outnumbering the opponents? I respect your opinion, but all this says to me is that you dont play the same type of cyrodiil that me and many people try to do, so you simply dont see the issues that im talking about here.

ProudMary

Just nerfing oils a bit would help a lot I think.

TheMightyRevan

ZOS needs to adjust sieges and npc's. They still have the old system of debuffs when major buffs did 25 %. So Meatbags are defiling so much you literally cant heal anymore, that needs a change. Same with npc's, they still give you a 25 % damage taken debuff on punctures. Same goes for oil's debuff. Its plain obvious for anyone with any slight knowledge of the game that siege needs a nerf.

Necrotech_Master

nuttytom wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

i agree with this opinion

to elaborate, a single siege weapon generally is a non threat, especially against a zerg, when you see a keep defense you need like dozens of siege (2-3 meatbags on flags, 4+ oils on stairs and the overhangs, maybe even support ballista) and even thats sometimes not enough to counter a zerg twice your number

my pvp NB is not like uber tanky, and generally can survive getting hit by a single siege including coldfire (although coldfire hurts a lot and can still be dicey if theres other incoming dmg)

if your sieging a keep, you just need to pay attention to the red circles and dont tunnel vision trying to kill people on the ground and you will generally be fine

not to mention all siege dot are purgeable (purge hasnt been use a lot since plaguebreak was added, but plague itself is not really as bad as it was due to the 20 sec cooldown per target and if your not stacked it doesnt hurt that much)

if anything siege should be unpurgeable, that might actually make existing siege remotely dangerous lol

solo players dont tend to place siege against a zerg because you simply dont have time to do that, so its pretty obvious that sieges arent a problem against a zerg. Another for reason is the cross healing that zergs have, which is a different issue entirely. Im talking about the massive zergs that place siege against small groups of 4-5 people (tbh even in a duo ive had siege placed on me by a zerg of 20+ people) why should a zerg be able to place siege and 30k+ dmg with coldfire, meatbags, fire ballistas etc etc when they are already massively outnumbering the opponents? I respect your opinion, but all this says to me is that you dont play the same type of cyrodiil that me and many people try to do, so you simply dont see the issues that im talking about here.

my main pvp toon is almost alliance rank 44, so ive spent a fair amount of time in cyrodiil as thats the best place to earn AP

if your seeing a zerg setting up siege, your probably seeing the newbie players who are not confident in actual pvp fighting just zerg surfing, or they are anticipating that a lone player they run across to be a troll tank that is going to take several siege to actually kill

realistically though if you were in a 1-2 person group and had a 20 person zerg chasing you, you were dead anyway with or without the siege

nuttytom

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

i agree with this opinion

to elaborate, a single siege weapon generally is a non threat, especially against a zerg, when you see a keep defense you need like dozens of siege (2-3 meatbags on flags, 4+ oils on stairs and the overhangs, maybe even support ballista) and even thats sometimes not enough to counter a zerg twice your number

my pvp NB is not like uber tanky, and generally can survive getting hit by a single siege including coldfire (although coldfire hurts a lot and can still be dicey if theres other incoming dmg)

if your sieging a keep, you just need to pay attention to the red circles and dont tunnel vision trying to kill people on the ground and you will generally be fine

not to mention all siege dot are purgeable (purge hasnt been use a lot since plaguebreak was added, but plague itself is not really as bad as it was due to the 20 sec cooldown per target and if your not stacked it doesnt hurt that much)

if anything siege should be unpurgeable, that might actually make existing siege remotely dangerous lol

solo players dont tend to place siege against a zerg because you simply dont have time to do that, so its pretty obvious that sieges arent a problem against a zerg. Another for reason is the cross healing that zergs have, which is a different issue entirely. Im talking about the massive zergs that place siege against small groups of 4-5 people (tbh even in a duo ive had siege placed on me by a zerg of 20+ people) why should a zerg be able to place siege and 30k+ dmg with coldfire, meatbags, fire ballistas etc etc when they are already massively outnumbering the opponents? I respect your opinion, but all this says to me is that you dont play the same type of cyrodiil that me and many people try to do, so you simply dont see the issues that im talking about here.

my main pvp toon is almost alliance rank 44, so ive spent a fair amount of time in cyrodiil as thats the best place to earn AP

if your seeing a zerg setting up siege, your probably seeing the newbie players who are not confident in actual pvp fighting just zerg surfing, or they are anticipating that a lone player they run across to be a troll tank that is going to take several siege to actually kill

realistically though if you were in a 1-2 person group and had a 20 person zerg chasing you, you were dead anyway with or without the siege

AP rank means nothing, you could be zerging all day to get to that rank for all i know. You have just proven again that you simply do not play cyrodiil at the kind of level some of us do. Zergs absolutely set up MULTIPLE sieges, i literally see it every single day, multiple times throughout the day. Also, your comment about "being dead anyway" if being chased by a 20 man group is not true in every case if utilise towers and LoS to your advantage (which is something you absolutely have to do to be able to survive against a zerg and to be able to kill some of them too. Siege does WAY too much damage against players and for this reason the zerg's better option is to just place siege instead of actually trying to fight people in the first place.

nuttytom

should this happen when already fighting vs heavily outnumbered?

(plenty more screens for you if you need btw)

VaranisArano

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone that's primarily about objective control. That's how the points are alloted. That's how transport around the map is controlled. That's how the majority of AP is made. Its why the tower-runners know they can get a steady stream of fights from sitting on a resource in the firat place. "Skill" is a secondary objective by far. Objective control, regardless of "skill" is what Cyrodiil is designed for.

Players are allowed to use the tools in their arsenal to deal with enemies on their objectives.

Siege is frankly excellent for dealing with the sort of player who captures a resource to draw out fights and then proceeds to run rings around the tower. We all know what happens if you get baited into engaging them on their own terms. So much smarter and faster to just drop down a siege AOE, blanket the structure in damage, and make them either run away or come out to face you head on.

Siege is less useful in an open field fight unless the enemy is coming to you. I used to see this plenty on the long fields from BRK to Sej or Sej to the bridge. First, open fields have a lot of room to manuever. Second, most siege either gets overrun or abandoned pretty quickly as the fight moves out of range. It's not super useful unless your back is to the objective...and the enemy is silly enough to press into a siege defended position. If the enemy made us chase them instead, that siege had to get packed up or lost. Yeah, it can be repositioned, but it's also the responsibility of the attacker to pick their battles rather than expect the defenders to work without their full arsenal, you know?

And finally, if you can't kill the player who's using a siege weapon, that's not a problem that will be fixed by nerfing siege weapons.

dragonlord500

I love my coldfire siege weapons! don't get rid of them!

Necrotech_Master

nuttytom wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

i agree with this opinion

to elaborate, a single siege weapon generally is a non threat, especially against a zerg, when you see a keep defense you need like dozens of siege (2-3 meatbags on flags, 4+ oils on stairs and the overhangs, maybe even support ballista) and even thats sometimes not enough to counter a zerg twice your number

my pvp NB is not like uber tanky, and generally can survive getting hit by a single siege including coldfire (although coldfire hurts a lot and can still be dicey if theres other incoming dmg)

if your sieging a keep, you just need to pay attention to the red circles and dont tunnel vision trying to kill people on the ground and you will generally be fine

not to mention all siege dot are purgeable (purge hasnt been use a lot since plaguebreak was added, but plague itself is not really as bad as it was due to the 20 sec cooldown per target and if your not stacked it doesnt hurt that much)

if anything siege should be unpurgeable, that might actually make existing siege remotely dangerous lol

solo players dont tend to place siege against a zerg because you simply dont have time to do that, so its pretty obvious that sieges arent a problem against a zerg. Another for reason is the cross healing that zergs have, which is a different issue entirely. Im talking about the massive zergs that place siege against small groups of 4-5 people (tbh even in a duo ive had siege placed on me by a zerg of 20+ people) why should a zerg be able to place siege and 30k+ dmg with coldfire, meatbags, fire ballistas etc etc when they are already massively outnumbering the opponents? I respect your opinion, but all this says to me is that you dont play the same type of cyrodiil that me and many people try to do, so you simply dont see the issues that im talking about here.

my main pvp toon is almost alliance rank 44, so ive spent a fair amount of time in cyrodiil as thats the best place to earn AP

if your seeing a zerg setting up siege, your probably seeing the newbie players who are not confident in actual pvp fighting just zerg surfing, or they are anticipating that a lone player they run across to be a troll tank that is going to take several siege to actually kill

realistically though if you were in a 1-2 person group and had a 20 person zerg chasing you, you were dead anyway with or without the siege

AP rank means nothing, you could be zerging all day to get to that rank for all i know. You have just proven again that you simply do not play cyrodiil at the kind of level some of us do. Zergs absolutely set up MULTIPLE sieges, i literally see it every single day, multiple times throughout the day. Also, your comment about "being dead anyway" if being chased by a 20 man group is not true in every case if utilise towers and LoS to your advantage (which is something you absolutely have to do to be able to survive against a zerg and to be able to kill some of them too. Siege does WAY too much damage against players and for this reason the zerg's better option is to just place siege instead of actually trying to fight people in the first place.

the only time i usually see siege set up in an open area is like say preventing advance to a keep (ash to nikel) or at milegates, or to push out a tower troll

i do surf zergs (although im never grouped i always play solo), but i dont set up siege when we heavily outnumber people or in open areas except occasionally at the alessia bridge

its very possible we do play different cyro, since i dont play no-cp/no-proc campaigns, and on PCNA

nuttytom

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone that's primarily about objective control. That's how the points are alloted. That's how transport around the map is controlled. That's how the majority of AP is made. Its why the tower-runners know they can get a steady stream of fights from sitting on a resource in the firat place. "Skill" is a secondary objective by far. Objective control, regardless of "skill" is what Cyrodiil is designed for.

Players are allowed to use the tools in their arsenal to deal with enemies on their objectives.

Siege is frankly excellent for dealing with the sort of player who captures a resource to draw out fights and then proceeds to run rings around the tower. We all know what happens if you get baited into engaging them on their own terms. So much smarter and faster to just drop down a siege AOE, blanket the structure in damage, and make them either run away or come out to face you head on.

Siege is less useful in an open field fight unless the enemy is coming to you. I used to see this plenty on the long fields from BRK to Sej or Sej to the bridge. First, open fields have a lot of room to manuever. Second, most siege either gets overrun or abandoned pretty quickly as the fight moves out of range. It's not super useful unless your back is to the objective...and the enemy is silly enough to press into a siege defended position. If the enemy made us chase them instead, that siege had to get packed up or lost. Yeah, it can be repositioned, but it's also the responsibility of the attacker to pick their battles rather than expect the defenders to work without their full arsenal, you know?

And finally, if you can't kill the player who's using a siege weapon, that's not a problem that will be fixed by nerfing siege weapons.

Im not saying that siege shouldnt be used at all, im saying the damage of siege vs players is way too overtuned as i have shown in that screenshot above. Dont you want cyrodiil to be a fun environment to play in? How is standing outside a tower shooting siege for 20 mins any fun at all? Yes of course cyrodiil is objective based, but every pvp game should have some degree of skill and room for players to improve their own skills and gameplay, siege makes it so you dont even have to try to learn how to fight properly, you can just in a zerg and shoot at small groups with a coldfire ballista. Really fun and engaging gameplay btw. And for your last point, did you know people can literally build to never die and tank damage, but also place siege and deal 30k+ damage to players, ive literally seen it with my own eyes. You are yet another person that clearly does not experience the same pvp as a lot of us do, so you have no real time experience with the issues presented in this thread.

OBJnoob

nuttytom wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Unpopular opinion incoming...

I disagree it does too much to players. Deploying and using siege in the middle of a fight is kinda silly, doesn't really happen where I play, but honestly should do considerable damage because honestly you're only gonna get 1 or 2 shots before you get zerged down.

During a siege-- being shot from the keep walls-- it's easy to avoid the red circles and even heal through them if you're on a decent build. I've never minded the damage of siege to players... What bothers me is the damage it does to other siege. It's pretty easy to ruin a wall siege by just ballistaing the crap out of the attacker's siege. To the point where I've given up before because everybody ran out of siege. Maybe things would be better if siege would stack in inventory... But regardless. It's easy enough to put a siege shield on a ram. I'm not worried about rams or oils. Ballistas/trebs should do less damage to ballistas/trebs.

If deploying a siege in the middle of the keep fight is silly then why is it beginning to happen more often? The same argument was made for people jumping around. The argument of it "being silly" doesn't fit when there is a underlying reason. In the case of jumping its momentum and in the case of siege 1 shot 1 kill game mechanics.

If there is large AoE's from the ground while fighting another player/s then you would surprised at how hard it is to see even avoid incoming siege. A 7K DPS DoT will kill almost anyone while already fighting another.

As for the siege vs siege that's a interesting discussion. Some do argue offensive siege's have a much higher failure rate to defensive sieges in current cyro.

I wasn't talking about in the middle of a keep fight I really meant in an open field. Just trying to drive at the point that it isn't like an actual problem when it comes to group v group fights it's only really a viable strategy during keep fights. There we seem to agree. But again, if this siege is placed in the courtyard then it's almost as useless as in an open field.

The counter siege from up top is hard to deal with sometimes but I believe it should be. The attacker's managing their own siege need to be aware they are a target and time their own shots so as not to be hit. I don't find this silly I find it to be part of the challenge and fun of the game.

This could get very long-winded so I'll try to bullet point a few things:
1) defending siege aimed at players isn't a common thing and even if it were... Not a big problem
2) counter siege aimed at siege requires the sieger to be aware and possibly have back-up from healers. One healer can heal numerous people sieging.
3) defenders fighting outside is what the counter siege is actually aiming at. You are only being targeted because you are fighting them. They are only free to fight outside because either the keep isn't flagged yet... So suffer through and flag it... Or because they have a camp... So find and burn it.
4) there's a lot of nuance to the whole thing but there are plays and counterplays for all of it, to include counter sieging their counter siege. This is what makes cyrodiil fun.
5) the occasional siege shot to a decent player isn't a big deal. If it happens to kill you... Then well played to them.

SaffronCitrusflower

dragonlord500 wrote: »

I love my coldfire siege weapons! don't get rid of them!

Coldfire and lancers should be the strongest siege weapons, as they are earned, not just purchased from the siege vendor.

Oils being so OP doesn't make any sense. Oils should be nerfed from their current state.

Vevvev

Honestly using siege in an open field battle makes sense from a real life point of view. You saw artillery used in historical battles and it was devastating when used right, but when the opponents got ahold of it they'd destroy the weapons or turn them around and use them against their original owners.

Be fun if instead of nerfing siege you just made it so anyone from any side could use them and you could turn that cold fire ballista back on that tank.

We all know a tank has to get off his siege to cast heals and when he does that have one of your buddies take his siege. We already can sorta lock the siege down by setting it on fire, but this would be just another step to making it so you don't wanna place them where people can touch them.

Jaraal

What do you mean, no counter? If an enemy drops siege in front of me, I hold block and burn it. And while they are chain bashing me, my friends are bursting them down.

VaranisArano

nuttytom wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone that's primarily about objective control. That's how the points are alloted. That's how transport around the map is controlled. That's how the majority of AP is made. Its why the tower-runners know they can get a steady stream of fights from sitting on a resource in the firat place. "Skill" is a secondary objective by far. Objective control, regardless of "skill" is what Cyrodiil is designed for.

Players are allowed to use the tools in their arsenal to deal with enemies on their objectives.

Siege is frankly excellent for dealing with the sort of player who captures a resource to draw out fights and then proceeds to run rings around the tower. We all know what happens if you get baited into engaging them on their own terms. So much smarter and faster to just drop down a siege AOE, blanket the structure in damage, and make them either run away or come out to face you head on.

Siege is less useful in an open field fight unless the enemy is coming to you. I used to see this plenty on the long fields from BRK to Sej or Sej to the bridge. First, open fields have a lot of room to manuever. Second, most siege either gets overrun or abandoned pretty quickly as the fight moves out of range. It's not super useful unless your back is to the objective...and the enemy is silly enough to press into a siege defended position. If the enemy made us chase them instead, that siege had to get packed up or lost. Yeah, it can be repositioned, but it's also the responsibility of the attacker to pick their battles rather than expect the defenders to work without their full arsenal, you know?

And finally, if you can't kill the player who's using a siege weapon, that's not a problem that will be fixed by nerfing siege weapons.

Im not saying that siege shouldnt be used at all, im saying the damage of siege vs players is way too overtuned as i have shown in that screenshot above. Dont you want cyrodiil to be a fun environment to play in? How is standing outside a tower shooting siege for 20 mins any fun at all? Yes of course cyrodiil is objective based, but every pvp game should have some degree of skill and room for players to improve their own skills and gameplay, siege makes it so you dont even have to try to learn how to fight properly, you can just in a zerg and shoot at small groups with a coldfire ballista. Really fun and engaging gameplay btw. And for your last point, did you know people can literally build to never die and tank damage, but also place siege and deal 30k+ damage to players, ive literally seen it with my own eyes. You are yet another person that clearly does not experience the same pvp as a lot of us do, so you have no real time experience with the issues presented in this thread.

Since I played during the Summerset Siege Buffs, which were way, way more overturned than siege is now AND Sloads procced from siege, I'm not easily impressed. Using siege weapons in every type of fight is by no means a new tactic. As for your screenshot of a Coldharbor Ballista? Of course it hits like a truck. Its supposed to.

Overall, your contention seems to me to be that siege should be nerfed because:

• Siege is a crutch for players who naturally couldn't kill you otherwise.
• Siege should only be used in fights where you approve and where it's not a substitute for what you consider skilled gameplay.
• Siege is uncounterable because you are unable to kill the players using it.

Counterpoints:

• If you're dying to siege as a skilled player, you are surely skilled enough to adapt your gameplay/build to avoid, purge, counter, or survive the siege damage however you choose. Or should you choose not to, accept the consequences of your choice.
• Siege is appropriate to use anywhere in Cyrodiil and you really don't get to dictate what the enemy brings to a fight. A skilled player should be prepared for anything, including siege weapons, and pick their battles and retreats wisely.
• Your inability to kill the tanky/undying players using siege weapons will not be fixed by nerfing the siege weapon they're using.

Cyrodiil isn't a skills exhibition. Its an AvAvA zone designed around large groups and objective control. Siege weapons (and zergs) fit right in with that vision. Promoting skilled fights is more of a Deathmatch or Dueling thing.

And personally, I'd suggest that if your current skills, build, and tactics can't cope with players using siege weapons, you probably need to adapt anyways or at least pick your battles, whether or not ZOS listens to your plea.

CGPsaint

Siege is a core component of AvA gameplay, whether it be sieging a keep, defending a keep, or used in the open field to attack /defend. There is already a telegraph showing where the siege attack will hit so you can avoid/dodge the initial hit, and if you do get hit, you do have the option of healing. Not sure where the issue lies.

TheMightyRevan

CGPsaint wrote: »

Siege is a core component of AvA gameplay, whether it be sieging a keep, defending a keep, or used in the open field to attack /defend. There is already a telegraph showing where the siege attack will hit so you can avoid/dodge the initial hit, and if you do get hit, you do have the option of healing. Not sure where the issue lies.

for the 10th time, siege isnt a problem on its own, it becomes one when you get sieged while already having 10 people on you. Saying you can easily just dodge/avoid or heal, makes it clear that you dont seem to get the point. Please if you dont know what youre talking about, just dont reply to a thread.

Also good luck trying to heal when you get the meatbag healing debuff.

nuttytom

VaranisArano wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone that's primarily about objective control. That's how the points are alloted. That's how transport around the map is controlled. That's how the majority of AP is made. Its why the tower-runners know they can get a steady stream of fights from sitting on a resource in the firat place. "Skill" is a secondary objective by far. Objective control, regardless of "skill" is what Cyrodiil is designed for.

Players are allowed to use the tools in their arsenal to deal with enemies on their objectives.

Siege is frankly excellent for dealing with the sort of player who captures a resource to draw out fights and then proceeds to run rings around the tower. We all know what happens if you get baited into engaging them on their own terms. So much smarter and faster to just drop down a siege AOE, blanket the structure in damage, and make them either run away or come out to face you head on.

Siege is less useful in an open field fight unless the enemy is coming to you. I used to see this plenty on the long fields from BRK to Sej or Sej to the bridge. First, open fields have a lot of room to manuever. Second, most siege either gets overrun or abandoned pretty quickly as the fight moves out of range. It's not super useful unless your back is to the objective...and the enemy is silly enough to press into a siege defended position. If the enemy made us chase them instead, that siege had to get packed up or lost. Yeah, it can be repositioned, but it's also the responsibility of the attacker to pick their battles rather than expect the defenders to work without their full arsenal, you know?

And finally, if you can't kill the player who's using a siege weapon, that's not a problem that will be fixed by nerfing siege weapons.

Im not saying that siege shouldnt be used at all, im saying the damage of siege vs players is way too overtuned as i have shown in that screenshot above. Dont you want cyrodiil to be a fun environment to play in? How is standing outside a tower shooting siege for 20 mins any fun at all? Yes of course cyrodiil is objective based, but every pvp game should have some degree of skill and room for players to improve their own skills and gameplay, siege makes it so you dont even have to try to learn how to fight properly, you can just in a zerg and shoot at small groups with a coldfire ballista. Really fun and engaging gameplay btw. And for your last point, did you know people can literally build to never die and tank damage, but also place siege and deal 30k+ damage to players, ive literally seen it with my own eyes. You are yet another person that clearly does not experience the same pvp as a lot of us do, so you have no real time experience with the issues presented in this thread.

Since I played during the Summerset Siege Buffs, which were way, way more overturned than siege is now AND Sloads procced from siege, I'm not easily impressed. Using siege weapons in every type of fight is by no means a new tactic. As for your screenshot of a Coldharbor Ballista? Of course it hits like a truck. Its supposed to.

Overall, your contention seems to me to be that siege should be nerfed because:

• Siege is a crutch for players who naturally couldn't kill you otherwise.
• Siege should only be used in fights where you approve and where it's not a substitute for what you consider skilled gameplay.
• Siege is uncounterable because you are unable to kill the players using it.

Counterpoints:

• If you're dying to siege as a skilled player, you are surely skilled enough to adapt your gameplay/build to avoid, purge, counter, or survive the siege damage however you choose. Or should you choose not to, accept the consequences of your choice.
• Siege is appropriate to use anywhere in Cyrodiil and you really don't get to dictate what the enemy brings to a fight. A skilled player should be prepared for anything, including siege weapons, and pick their battles and retreats wisely.
• Your inability to kill the tanky/undying players using siege weapons will not be fixed by nerfing the siege weapon they're using.

Cyrodiil isn't a skills exhibition. Its an AvAvA zone designed around large groups and objective control. Siege weapons (and zergs) fit right in with that vision. Promoting skilled fights is more of a Deathmatch or Dueling thing.

And personally, I'd suggest that if your current skills, build, and tactics can't cope with players using siege weapons, you probably need to adapt anyways or at least pick your battles, whether or not ZOS listens to your plea.

Dude your counterpoints literally arent true at all. How are you supposed to adapt to getting shot at by multiple sieges by a zerg of 20+ players (which btw all tick for 7k+ a second).

From everything you have said its just extremely clear that you have never experienced what i am actually talking about in this thread.

I have no problem killing players, but when my 4 man group (for example) is getting shot by multiple siege weapons (coldfire, fire ballista, meatbag etc) from 20+ people standing behind their zerg, then are we actually supposed to do in this situation. again, the fact that you just say to "adapt" speaks volumes to what kind of pvp you experience compared to me.

After every fight vs a zerg we can check our combat metrics addon and see that siege is the highest damage received by extreme amounts, way way more than any actual skill used by players. I honestly believe you must be one of the players that im talking about, the ones that just place siege when theyre inside a zerg.

ANother is the fact that meatbags apply defile to you which completely destroys you healing. How is that fair when you are vs 20+ players? The siege simply puts way too much pressure on you when you are already massively outnumbered.

You were right about one thing tho, siege definitely is a massive crutch for players.

VaranisArano

nuttytom wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an AvAvA zone that's primarily about objective control. That's how the points are alloted. That's how transport around the map is controlled. That's how the majority of AP is made. Its why the tower-runners know they can get a steady stream of fights from sitting on a resource in the firat place. "Skill" is a secondary objective by far. Objective control, regardless of "skill" is what Cyrodiil is designed for.

Players are allowed to use the tools in their arsenal to deal with enemies on their objectives.

Siege is frankly excellent for dealing with the sort of player who captures a resource to draw out fights and then proceeds to run rings around the tower. We all know what happens if you get baited into engaging them on their own terms. So much smarter and faster to just drop down a siege AOE, blanket the structure in damage, and make them either run away or come out to face you head on.

Siege is less useful in an open field fight unless the enemy is coming to you. I used to see this plenty on the long fields from BRK to Sej or Sej to the bridge. First, open fields have a lot of room to manuever. Second, most siege either gets overrun or abandoned pretty quickly as the fight moves out of range. It's not super useful unless your back is to the objective...and the enemy is silly enough to press into a siege defended position. If the enemy made us chase them instead, that siege had to get packed up or lost. Yeah, it can be repositioned, but it's also the responsibility of the attacker to pick their battles rather than expect the defenders to work without their full arsenal, you know?

And finally, if you can't kill the player who's using a siege weapon, that's not a problem that will be fixed by nerfing siege weapons.

Im not saying that siege shouldnt be used at all, im saying the damage of siege vs players is way too overtuned as i have shown in that screenshot above. Dont you want cyrodiil to be a fun environment to play in? How is standing outside a tower shooting siege for 20 mins any fun at all? Yes of course cyrodiil is objective based, but every pvp game should have some degree of skill and room for players to improve their own skills and gameplay, siege makes it so you dont even have to try to learn how to fight properly, you can just in a zerg and shoot at small groups with a coldfire ballista. Really fun and engaging gameplay btw. And for your last point, did you know people can literally build to never die and tank damage, but also place siege and deal 30k+ damage to players, ive literally seen it with my own eyes. You are yet another person that clearly does not experience the same pvp as a lot of us do, so you have no real time experience with the issues presented in this thread.

Since I played during the Summerset Siege Buffs, which were way, way more overturned than siege is now AND Sloads procced from siege, I'm not easily impressed. Using siege weapons in every type of fight is by no means a new tactic. As for your screenshot of a Coldharbor Ballista? Of course it hits like a truck. Its supposed to.

Overall, your contention seems to me to be that siege should be nerfed because:

• Siege is a crutch for players who naturally couldn't kill you otherwise.
• Siege should only be used in fights where you approve and where it's not a substitute for what you consider skilled gameplay.
• Siege is uncounterable because you are unable to kill the players using it.

Counterpoints:

• If you're dying to siege as a skilled player, you are surely skilled enough to adapt your gameplay/build to avoid, purge, counter, or survive the siege damage however you choose. Or should you choose not to, accept the consequences of your choice.
• Siege is appropriate to use anywhere in Cyrodiil and you really don't get to dictate what the enemy brings to a fight. A skilled player should be prepared for anything, including siege weapons, and pick their battles and retreats wisely.
• Your inability to kill the tanky/undying players using siege weapons will not be fixed by nerfing the siege weapon they're using.

Cyrodiil isn't a skills exhibition. Its an AvAvA zone designed around large groups and objective control. Siege weapons (and zergs) fit right in with that vision. Promoting skilled fights is more of a Deathmatch or Dueling thing.

And personally, I'd suggest that if your current skills, build, and tactics can't cope with players using siege weapons, you probably need to adapt anyways or at least pick your battles, whether or not ZOS listens to your plea.

Dude your counterpoints literally arent true at all. How are you supposed to adapt to getting shot at by multiple sieges by a zerg of 20+ players (which btw all tick for 7k+ a second).

From everything you have said its just extremely clear that you have never experienced what i am actually talking about in this thread.

I have no problem killing players, but when my 4 man group (for example) is getting shot by multiple siege weapons (coldfire, fire ballista, meatbag etc) from 20+ people standing behind their zerg, then are we actually supposed to do in this situation. again, the fact that you just say to "adapt" speaks volumes to what kind of pvp you experience compared to me.

After every fight vs a zerg we can check our combat metrics addon and see that siege is the highest damage received by extreme amounts, way way more than any actual skill used by players. I honestly believe you must be one of the players that im talking about, the ones that just place siege when theyre inside a zerg.

ANother is the fact that meatbags apply defile to you which completely destroys you healing. How is that fair when you are vs 20+ players? The siege simply puts way too much pressure on you when you are already massively outnumbered.

You were right about one thing tho, siege definitely is a massive crutch for players.

I believe I mentioned that picking your battles is part of adapting, yeah? A group of four should not expect to win against a group of twenty, and especially not against a zerg backed up by even more players using siege.

Yet you expect ZOS to nerf siege so your 4-man group can win?

Okay. You do you.

By that standard, Cyrodiil will never be fair. It's not designed for 1v10s, no siege. It's not designed for 4 v 20s, no siege. It's not designed for a 4-man group to turtle up under the sort of siege that challenges ball groups. If you play outnumbered in an AvAvA zone, it's kinda pointless to complain that it's not fair, IMO.


Yes, meatbags apply defile. That's intentional, and it's one of the major counters to ball groups who have dedicated healers and stacked heals from their group members. ZOS added it to Cyrodiil back when we had 24-man ball groups and it's remained effective at its purpose now that those groups are down to 12.

I'll assume your group is unable to move out of the AOE and either unable or unwilling to purge the effect. So I'm unsurprised that meatbags hit your 4-man group like a truck, but the benefits that meatbags bring as counters to the much stronger ball groups mean that they shouldn't be nerfed.


Frankly, it sounds like your ideal nerf would be one that decreased siege damage in proportion to your group size.