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nerf siege

  • Alchimiste1
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    The very fact that their are counters where you can survive disproves that siege is OP to the point where you can't escape it.

    yeah let me just corrosive on any other class in the game. Oh wait, I can't.

    If siege was ticing for 20k+ each time would you still use that argument? No, you wouldn't because its flawed.
    Seems like you just want siege to be the end all be all.

    No I want solo and small scale 1vXers to wake up and realize while they can play that way Cyrodill was designed for larger scale and they will have some drawbacks doing so.

    The best small scale players adjust and counter by drawing players to them out of siege range.

    If you fight too close to a keep expect what you get, and if someone tries to siege in an open field that is highly risky as you are a sitting duck, and if you can't take them out then I don't have much to say.




    if you think you can get a fight anywhere else than at a keep or at a ressource, where ppl will place siege, then i dont know what to tell you.

    You kite them away from the siege, like the pros do.
    Siege is artillery, should we ask armies not to use artillery?
    This is a war not a street fight.

    I wish, they don't follow. And there is no incentive for anyone to go to random places in the map.
  • nuttytom
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    You kite them away from the siege, like the pros do.
    Siege is artillery, should we ask armies not to use artillery?
    This is a war not a street fight.

    this is a game that requires some sort of balance in order for it to be fun and take some degree of skill, not world war 2
  • WaywardArgonian
    WaywardArgonian
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    Even if you do kite people away from a keep, some factions will put siege on any flat surface the second you stop running. I've even seen a player pull out a Coldharbour Ballista when trying to 2v1 someone lol.
    PC/EU altaholic | Occasional PC/NA zergling | Former Empanada of Ravenwatch | @ degonyte in-game | Nibani Ilath-Pal (AD Nightblade) - AvA rank 50 | Jehanne Teymour (AD Sorcerer) - AvA rank 50 | Niria Ilath-Pal (AD Templar) - AvA rank 50
  • ZOS_Phoenix
    Greetings,

    We've had to remove a few non-constructive and baiting comments. Please remember that while it’s alright to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable on our forums.
    Staff Post
  • nuttytom
    nuttytom
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    Even if you do kite people away from a keep, some factions will put siege on any flat surface the second you stop running. I've even seen a player pull out a Coldharbour Ballista when trying to 2v1 someone lol.

    exactly this
  • kingsim3000
    kingsim3000
    Soul Shriven
    reduce cost of siegeshield and purge i'd say.. and yea just a lil tad of reducing siegedamage wld be ok, its a bit toooo much damage of em atm
  • Lumsdenml
    Lumsdenml
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    What is like to see are fire balista damage scale with distance. 40k initial hit within 5m, then scale down to about 12k for max distance.
    In game ID: @KnightOfTacomaMain: Black Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50/CP 1724 Nightblade NA PC - Grand Master Crafter and part time ganker Other Main:Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - The Disenfranchised - DF!
    Obituary:Priest of Tacoma - EP Lvl 22 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the Garden of Shadows. RIP.Viscount of Tacoma - EP Lvl 18 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the war. RIP.Squire of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Knahaten Flu. RIPReaper of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Consumption. RIPSovereign of Tacoma - EP Lvl 32 NightBlade NA PC Kyne - Lost at The Battle of Brindle, December 13, 2018. RIPDauphin of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC Kyne - Overdosed on Skooma. RIPWraith of Tacoma - EP Lvl 10 Dragon Knight NA PC - Eaten by a dragon. RIPRed Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died at the Battle of Chalmen, March 18th, 2021. RIPMaharajah of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Lost in a sandstorm. RIPVampire Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Sorcerer NA PC - Fell asleep in the sun. RIP
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Lumsdenml wrote: »
    What is like to see are fire balista damage scale with distance. 40k initial hit within 5m, then scale down to about 12k for max distance.

    ZOS is so worried about performance that they nerfed a seven year old weapon glyph that had to check if a player was undead or a werewolf. There's no way they would add extra distance calculations to the mix.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • gw2only1b14_ESO
    gw2only1b14_ESO
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    I have better idea just remove the legendary gear from PVP and keep it in pve land where it was ment to be for the pve trials ect. Then in pvp Youd not worry about how much damage a siege does or doesn't do see mnay times 3 mna group 3 dks and 1 warden 1 bar oaken soul take keep after keep with siege and oil reigning on them...Seige not the issue
  • ProudMary
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    I have better idea just remove the legendary gear from PVP and keep it in pve land where it was ment to be for the pve trials ect. Then in pvp Youd not worry about how much damage a siege does or doesn't do see mnay times 3 mna group 3 dks and 1 warden 1 bar oaken soul take keep after keep with siege and oil reigning on them...Seige not the issue

    This is a horrible suggestion. It wouldn't make sense to remove gold gear from either PvP or PvE.

    The original suggestion of nerfing some siege, especially oils, makes sense. Siege, especially oils, are over performing right now.
  • nuttytom
    nuttytom
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    I have better idea just remove the legendary gear from PVP and keep it in pve land where it was ment to be for the pve trials ect. Then in pvp Youd not worry about how much damage a siege does or doesn't do see mnay times 3 mna group 3 dks and 1 warden 1 bar oaken soul take keep after keep with siege and oil reigning on them...Seige not the issue

    siege is ok but legendary gear is not? what is this take lol
  • nuttytom
    nuttytom
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    Lumsdenml wrote: »
    Siege against players is a core part of this game. The OPs suggestion that it is not is incorrect. If seige was needn't to be only for keeps, meatbags wouldn't exist. Personally I feel all siege vs. Players should be buffed. Someone shouldn't be able to survive a fire batista to the face, even in a ball group with 5+ healers. It is too easy to heal through siege right now. Also, there are plenty of counters to siege in an open field, mobility chief among them.

    I am not at all suggesting siege should be removed or shouldn't work on players.... I'm saying the damage of siege vs players should be toned down.

    I am sorry but you are just completely wrong, a fire ballista to the face should not be doing as much damage as its doing right now.

    If you think it is easy to heal through siege damage then we must be playing a different game. You simply cannot heal through a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag on you at the same time, its too much damage ticking on you.

    [snip]

    Its just simply not as easy as you think it is to avoid siege lol

    [edited for minor baiting]
    Edited by nuttytom on March 10, 2023 8:32PM
  • nuttytom
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    Marcus684 wrote: »

    If you think it is easy to heal through siege damage then we must be playing a different game. You simply cannot heal through a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag on you at the same time, its too much damage ticking on you.

    As it should be. It's SIEGE not light attacks. It's supposed to be akin to facing artillery. If you're hanging out in 1 spot long enough for a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag to be brought to bear on you, you've messed up.

    its a game, not an actual IRL warzone. Its not fun or balanced getting hit by multiple sieges for 10k+ every time. People should actually be encouraged to use their skills instead of relying on broken siege weapons
  • Alchimiste1
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    Remove legendary gear lol. These are some under level 50 campaign pvpers
    Edited by Alchimiste1 on March 12, 2023 2:13AM
  • nuttytom
    nuttytom
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    we can counter every single argument the pro-siegers come up with.
    Edited by nuttytom on March 12, 2023 12:41PM
  • NordSwordnBoard
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    Marcus684 wrote: »
    The very fact that their are counters where you can survive disproves that siege is OP to the point where you can't escape it.

    yeah let me just corrosive on any other class in the game. Oh wait, I can't.

    If siege was ticing for 20k+ each time would you still use that argument? No, you wouldn't because its flawed.
    Seems like you just want siege to be the end all be all.

    No I want solo and small scale 1vXers to wake up and realize while they can play that way Cyrodill was designed for larger scale and they will have some drawbacks doing so.

    The best small scale players adjust and counter by drawing players to them out of siege range.

    If you fight too close to a keep expect what you get, and if someone tries to siege in an open field that is highly risky as you are a sitting duck, and if you can't take them out then I don't have much to say.




    if you think you can get a fight anywhere else than at a keep or at a ressource, where ppl will place siege, then i dont know what to tell you.

    You kite them away from the siege, like the pros do.
    Siege is artillery, should we ask armies not to use artillery?
    This is a war not a street fight.

    I wish, they don't follow. And there is no incentive for anyone to go to random places in the map.

    So, you’ve farmed them to the point that they finally wised up and stopped chasing you. Sounds like you’re a victim of your own success.

    This. Siege is fine, it's just a few people having a tactical problem and failing to adapt. As Varanis and others have said, people looking for pure skill fights choose the content designed for it. 3/4 pvp modes have no siege - duels, IC & BGs. Nerfing siege damage will not reduce siege usage. It may actually cause more to be placed to make up for the loss. To think you can force a zergling out of their habits is folly. They will double down and dig in lol.
    Fear is the Mindkiller
  • gw2only1b14_ESO
    gw2only1b14_ESO
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    I have better idea just remove the legendary gear from PVP and keep it in pve land where it was ment to be for the pve trials ect. Then in pvp Youd not worry about how much damage a siege does or doesn't do see mnay times 3 mna group 3 dks and 1 warden 1 bar oaken soul take keep after keep with siege and oil reigning on them...Seige not the issue

    Should have said Mythic Oaken soul is mythic and its ilk
  • DizzyMac
    DizzyMac
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    nuttytom wrote: »
    jcyq73nk8m0p.png

    should this happen when already fighting vs heavily outnumbered?

    (plenty more screens for you if you need btw)



    You took 7 rounds of siege and died. I fail to see how that is overpowered. if it was 2 then i would agree, but who stands in 7 rounds of siege and expects to live? seriously!?!
  • nuttytom
    nuttytom
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    nuttytom wrote: »
    Marcus684 wrote: »

    If you think it is easy to heal through siege damage then we must be playing a different game. You simply cannot heal through a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag on you at the same time, its too much damage ticking on you.

    As it should be. It's SIEGE not light attacks. It's supposed to be akin to facing artillery. If you're hanging out in 1 spot long enough for a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag to be brought to bear on you, you've messed up.

    its a game, not an actual IRL warzone. Its not fun or balanced getting hit by multiple sieges for 10k+ every time. People should actually be encouraged to use their skills instead of relying on broken siege weapons

    Cyrodiil is an Alliance Warzone intended for siege weapons, large groups, and objective defense, unlike Battlegrounds which was developed primarily for the "small-scale, good fights, skilled players" crowd. That's why Cyrodiil has siege weapons and Battlegrounds doesn't. It's a whole different style of play. Just because you enjoy small-scale, skilled fights doesn't mean you can impose that ethos on Cyrodiil.

    Nerfing siege will not inherently encourage players to use their skills instead of siege in Cyrodiil, as you well know.

    If a player has already tangled with a small-scaler/ball group and knows their skills are frankly outmatched, even nerfed siege remains their smartest option. So the only thing a nerf accomplishes is to make it easier for the small-scaler/ball group to survive and continue farming.

    Nerf the weaker, less skilled player who's already turning to siege because its the only way they have a chance of winning against the small-scale/ball groups farming them?

    Buff the stronger, more skilled player/group so they take less damage from the one thing that's letting lesser skilled players stop their farming?

    Yeah...yeah, that sounds fun and balanced for everyone. /s

    Its nerfing siege weapons, not nerfing the players. If you think nerfing siege = nerfing lesser skilled players then surely that is a huge problem in itself? Why shouldn't people actually have to learn the game and improve their own skills?
  • nuttytom
    nuttytom
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    DizzyMac wrote: »
    nuttytom wrote: »
    jcyq73nk8m0p.png

    should this happen when already fighting vs heavily outnumbered?

    (plenty more screens for you if you need btw)



    You took 7 rounds of siege and died. I fail to see how that is overpowered. if it was 2 then i would agree, but who stands in 7 rounds of siege and expects to live? seriously!?!

    Yes I actively stood in all of this siege......



    But really the point of this post is to show how much damage siege is doing (its too much btw). Taking 10k ticks from siege should not be a thing when its actually very regular that you get hit by this amount of siege if you're fighting outnumbered.
  • TheMightyRevan
    TheMightyRevan
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    nuttytom wrote: »
    Marcus684 wrote: »

    If you think it is easy to heal through siege damage then we must be playing a different game. You simply cannot heal through a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag on you at the same time, its too much damage ticking on you.

    As it should be. It's SIEGE not light attacks. It's supposed to be akin to facing artillery. If you're hanging out in 1 spot long enough for a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag to be brought to bear on you, you've messed up.

    its a game, not an actual IRL warzone. Its not fun or balanced getting hit by multiple sieges for 10k+ every time. People should actually be encouraged to use their skills instead of relying on broken siege weapons

    Cyrodiil is an Alliance Warzone intended for siege weapons, large groups, and objective defense, unlike Battlegrounds which was developed primarily for the "small-scale, good fights, skilled players" crowd. That's why Cyrodiil has siege weapons and Battlegrounds doesn't. It's a whole different style of play. Just because you enjoy small-scale, skilled fights doesn't mean you can impose that ethos on Cyrodiil.

    Nerfing siege will not inherently encourage players to use their skills instead of siege in Cyrodiil, as you well know.

    If a player has already tangled with a small-scaler/ball group and knows their skills are frankly outmatched, even nerfed siege remains their smartest option. So the only thing a nerf accomplishes is to make it easier for the small-scaler/ball group to survive and continue farming.

    Nerf the weaker, less skilled player who's already turning to siege because its the only way they have a chance of winning against the small-scale/ball groups farming them?

    Buff the stronger, more skilled player/group so they take less damage from the one thing that's letting lesser skilled players stop their farming?

    Yeah...yeah, that sounds fun and balanced for everyone. /s

    so youre argument is that high skill players shouldnt win against low skill players because...balance, ok how does that make sense at all.
  • Four_Fingers
    Four_Fingers
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    nuttytom wrote: »
    Marcus684 wrote: »

    If you think it is easy to heal through siege damage then we must be playing a different game. You simply cannot heal through a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag on you at the same time, its too much damage ticking on you.

    As it should be. It's SIEGE not light attacks. It's supposed to be akin to facing artillery. If you're hanging out in 1 spot long enough for a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag to be brought to bear on you, you've messed up.

    its a game, not an actual IRL warzone. Its not fun or balanced getting hit by multiple sieges for 10k+ every time. People should actually be encouraged to use their skills instead of relying on broken siege weapons

    Cyrodiil is an Alliance Warzone intended for siege weapons, large groups, and objective defense, unlike Battlegrounds which was developed primarily for the "small-scale, good fights, skilled players" crowd. That's why Cyrodiil has siege weapons and Battlegrounds doesn't. It's a whole different style of play. Just because you enjoy small-scale, skilled fights doesn't mean you can impose that ethos on Cyrodiil.

    Nerfing siege will not inherently encourage players to use their skills instead of siege in Cyrodiil, as you well know.

    If a player has already tangled with a small-scaler/ball group and knows their skills are frankly outmatched, even nerfed siege remains their smartest option. So the only thing a nerf accomplishes is to make it easier for the small-scaler/ball group to survive and continue farming.

    Nerf the weaker, less skilled player who's already turning to siege because its the only way they have a chance of winning against the small-scale/ball groups farming them?

    Buff the stronger, more skilled player/group so they take less damage from the one thing that's letting lesser skilled players stop their farming?

    Yeah...yeah, that sounds fun and balanced for everyone. /s

    so youre argument is that high skill players shouldnt win against low skill players because...balance, ok how does that make sense at all.

    Players with "high skill" in Meta tanky sets with high damage. smh
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    nuttytom wrote: »
    nuttytom wrote: »
    Marcus684 wrote: »

    If you think it is easy to heal through siege damage then we must be playing a different game. You simply cannot heal through a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag on you at the same time, its too much damage ticking on you.

    As it should be. It's SIEGE not light attacks. It's supposed to be akin to facing artillery. If you're hanging out in 1 spot long enough for a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag to be brought to bear on you, you've messed up.

    its a game, not an actual IRL warzone. Its not fun or balanced getting hit by multiple sieges for 10k+ every time. People should actually be encouraged to use their skills instead of relying on broken siege weapons

    Cyrodiil is an Alliance Warzone intended for siege weapons, large groups, and objective defense, unlike Battlegrounds which was developed primarily for the "small-scale, good fights, skilled players" crowd. That's why Cyrodiil has siege weapons and Battlegrounds doesn't. It's a whole different style of play. Just because you enjoy small-scale, skilled fights doesn't mean you can impose that ethos on Cyrodiil.

    Nerfing siege will not inherently encourage players to use their skills instead of siege in Cyrodiil, as you well know.

    If a player has already tangled with a small-scaler/ball group and knows their skills are frankly outmatched, even nerfed siege remains their smartest option. So the only thing a nerf accomplishes is to make it easier for the small-scaler/ball group to survive and continue farming.

    Nerf the weaker, less skilled player who's already turning to siege because its the only way they have a chance of winning against the small-scale/ball groups farming them?

    Buff the stronger, more skilled player/group so they take less damage from the one thing that's letting lesser skilled players stop their farming?

    Yeah...yeah, that sounds fun and balanced for everyone. /s

    Its nerfing siege weapons, not nerfing the players. If you think nerfing siege = nerfing lesser skilled players then surely that is a huge problem in itself? Why shouldn't people actually have to learn the game and improve their own skills?

    I repeat myself: nerfing siege will not inherently encourage players to use their own skills. Nor is it going to produce a fun and balanced result for everyone.

    Picture a common scene in Cyrodiil: a ball group has taken possession of a keep. They run the walls or the upper floor, moving as one group. Their heals are constantly ticking and anyone who gets in front of them dies. As long as they hold it, they're messing with your campaign score, your transit, your scrolls, and generally being a nuisance to your faction.

    So you answer the call. What's the smart tactic to get this ball group out of your keep?

    A. You're a casual, less skilled player. Try to tackle the ball group with your skills. Die. Over and over again, you die, usually accomplishing nothing except feeding the ball group more AP.
    B. You're a casual, less skilled player. Use Siege Weapons, limiting where the ball group can go and dealing damage when they can't avoid you, sapping their resources and opening up the opportunity for other players to tackle them directly.
    C. You already have the gear, build, and personal skill to bomb or pick off the ball group members one by one until they dissolve.
    D. You got tired of being farmed by a group you can't kill and left already. The ball will get bored eventually, right?

    Your suggestion posits that Player A is at least using their skills and Player B deserves to be nerfed. Oh, and clearly if we nerfed siege, everyone would magically turn into Player C instead of A or D, becoming capable of taking apart a ball group who *checks notes* now takes less damage from the siege they can't avoid.

    That's not how it works in practice.

    I prefer ballgroup style organized group play and it usually takes all of the first three to drive us out. If you only have the realistic small numbers of Player(s) C and no siege, it doesn't work because their bursts usually aren't coordinated and the ball group regroups elsewhere. If you only have siege, it doesn't usually deal enough damage on its own to beat the coordinated healing. And if you only have Siege + Player(s) A, it's gonna take a lot of less skilled players + siege to break down an organized group. The pop caps have not been kind to PUGs. Without siege, they just get farmed.

    And I hope that pointing out the personal skill that it takes to be one of those skilled players who can work at pulling apart a ball group goes to show the uselessness of the suggestion that causal, less skilled players should just "improve their skills" as an alternative to using siege. We both know the skill differential is so high that it won't happen soon enough to make a difference for player enjoyment now. You don't go from Player A to Player C without a lot of time, effort, and practice. That's not really casual play. Nerfing siege will not change that equation, except to make the gulf between ballgroup vs casual player more daunting.

    Cyrodiil must remain accessible for casual play, not just for highly skilled players. It is neither healthy, balanced nor fun for the players my guild farmed to nerf one of the few options for casual, less skilled players to fight our organized group effectively.

    And one of the glaring flaws with all the arguments that focus on how small scalers, 1vXers, and tower farmers feel about siege damage is that they ignore the ball group problem or try to shuffle it off with hypothetical HOT-stacking changes. You can't nerf siege without effectively buffing ball groups, to the detriment of all the players who fight them. I'd guess, though I'm willing to be corrected on this front, that most small-scalers, 1vXers, and tower farmers probably aren't the ones going into the back keeps to chase out a farming ball group.


    I don't expect you to agree, but I continue to comment because I think it's worth continuing to bring up these wider perspectives on the point of siege in Cyrodiil for any Devs who are still reading along.
  • nuttytom
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    Players with "high skill" in Meta tanky sets with high damage. smh

    Well yes... why is this a bad thing? Every pvp game has a meta which is obviously going to be used by the good players lol
    Edited by nuttytom on March 13, 2023 6:37PM
  • Lumsdenml
    Lumsdenml
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    nuttytom wrote: »
    Lumsdenml wrote: »
    Siege against players is a core part of this game. The OPs suggestion that it is not is incorrect. If seige was needn't to be only for keeps, meatbags wouldn't exist. Personally I feel all siege vs. Players should be buffed. Someone shouldn't be able to survive a fire batista to the face, even in a ball group with 5+ healers. It is too easy to heal through siege right now. Also, there are plenty of counters to siege in an open field, mobility chief among them.

    I am not at all suggesting siege should be removed or shouldn't work on players.... I'm saying the damage of siege vs players should be toned down.

    I am sorry but you are just completely wrong, a fire ballista to the face should not be doing as much damage as its doing right now.

    If you think it is easy to heal through siege damage then we must be playing a different game. You simply cannot heal through a coldfire, fire ballista and meatbag on you at the same time, its too much damage ticking on you.

    [snip]

    Its just simply not as easy as you think it is to avoid siege lol

    [edited for minor baiting]

    I have seen plenty of ball groups stack on a ram, getting hit with oils, cold fire and fire batista and not lose a single player. That is why it's love to see the initial hit of siege buffed.
    In game ID: @KnightOfTacomaMain: Black Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50/CP 1724 Nightblade NA PC - Grand Master Crafter and part time ganker Other Main:Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - The Disenfranchised - DF!
    Obituary:Priest of Tacoma - EP Lvl 22 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the Garden of Shadows. RIP.Viscount of Tacoma - EP Lvl 18 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the war. RIP.Squire of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Knahaten Flu. RIPReaper of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Consumption. RIPSovereign of Tacoma - EP Lvl 32 NightBlade NA PC Kyne - Lost at The Battle of Brindle, December 13, 2018. RIPDauphin of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC Kyne - Overdosed on Skooma. RIPWraith of Tacoma - EP Lvl 10 Dragon Knight NA PC - Eaten by a dragon. RIPRed Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died at the Battle of Chalmen, March 18th, 2021. RIPMaharajah of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Lost in a sandstorm. RIPVampire Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Sorcerer NA PC - Fell asleep in the sun. RIP
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