Make it quicker for 6-12 player groups to take keeps in Cyro?

subarctic

The game in EU PC Grey Host is way too static and boring. When we had 24 player groups it was easier to take keeps. Today it can be difficult to even get a PUG of 12 people. Often we are just 5-8 people, waiting and looking at the map until we notice that a keep is under attack. Then we move in. But what often happens if a group of 6-12 players decide to take the initiative, on our own, is that we get through the outer main gate only to get killed by incoming defenders, usually when sieging the inner gate or at the flags. This is at least my experience playing for unruly and undisciplined EP on the EU pc server. To get more action and encourage attacks, it seems necessary to make it easier to kick in doors and crumble those walls. With smaller groups the game should be more ninja.

TechMaybeHic

No. You're supposed to fight. If the enemy doesn't respond, then fine; but any quicker and the entire game will be quick keep takes with no chance to defend

subarctic

But the more often a keep flips, the more AP, and it will be more fighting, instead of staring at the map and/or hoping that some other random group or zerg will be there to help you during a siege.

Billium813

subarctic wrote: »

The game in EU PC Grey Host is way too static and boring. When we had 24 player groups it was easier to take keeps. Today it can be difficult to even get a PUG of 12 people. Often we are just 5-8 people, waiting and looking at the map until we notice that a keep is under attack. Then we move in. But what often happens if a group of 6-12 players decide to take the initiative, on our own, is that we get through the outer main gate only to get killed by incoming defenders, usually when sieging the inner gate or at the flags. This is at least my experience playing for unruly and undisciplined EP on the EU pc server. To get more action and encourage attacks, it seems necessary to make it easier to kick in doors and crumble those walls. With smaller groups the game should be more ninja.

You know the issue, but you arrived at the wrong solution.

Cyrodiil needs more structure for forming groups and organizing content. Not quicker caps. If anything, it should be more difficult to capture stuff! The resources don't play ENOUGH of a role and they are overly simplistic.

subarctic

Capturing stuff is fun. Why slow down the game even more? The game in its current state doesn't work now, proven by the fact that many have left Cyro. In 2015 we could have a large group up at 6 o’clock in the morning, full action literally 24/7. Today the game in Cyro has become a shadow of itself. Something must change, to bring life back to Cyrodiil.

Billium813

subarctic wrote: »

Capturing stuff is fun. Why slow down the game even more? The game in its current state doesn't work now, proven by the fact that many have left Cyro. In 2015 we could have a large group up at 6 o’clock in the morning, full action literally 24/7. Today the game in Cyro has become a shadow of itself. Something must change, to bring life back to Cyrodiil.

I don't disagree! Capturing stuff is fun! Except, capturing Keeps are too large of a thing to be done quickly. I think they need to add MORE things to capture outside Keeps. Perhaps something like plantations, or caravans, or watch towers, that feed resources to the Farm, Lumber, and Mine resources. Each Keep should be a final goal in the area with several supporting capture points REQUIRED to capture the Keep.

Players capturing resources and support structures are what indicate to players "you should go here and participate!". Speeding up the capture of Keeps tells players "oh, the Keep flagged... don't bother going cause it'll be over before you even get there". That's a terrible message to give players

haelgaan

ZOS definitely should make defending a keep easier, and increase the rewards for defending. Keeps are cap'd way too fast now - it's far too easy for a small group to capture a defended keep. A good place to start is to allow defenders to repair doors that are under attack. The game cheats in blocking repairs!

TechMaybeHic

You have outposts and towns if you're feeling to light for a keep. Making it easier for smaller groups makes it menial for a group of 12 or a zerg. Already is, really; and should be bumped up

LarsS

It's easy to take an empty keep in 2 min and 30 sec with a 7 people, so no there is no need to make it faster.

Necrotech_Master

the flags maximum flip speed is with 6 players, a group of 6-8 players can easily take a keep if they go straight to front door and ram + 2-3 normal ballista and light it before anyone notices especially if the pop is low, you shouldnt have much resistance (or any)

even smaller groups (4-6) can take an outpost relatively fast too

subarctic

Cyrodiil is a huge place that needs more towns and keeps and dungeons and tunnels we can capture. If one group takes a keep, and your group is not in the vicinity, don’t play the riding simulator for 2 min, because you will not get there in time. Instead: take a keep or an equally valuable asset much closer to you. Also give players rewards for good team work: stack at crown for 2 min and you get 100,000 AP, and get a mansion if you somehow manage to stack at crown for 2 min and 30 seconds (an eternity for most gamers). Give a player a new skin or a new mount if he has the discipline to deploy 3 ballistas at the same time when sieging a door. Too often it’s not easy to get a PUG player to deploy even 1 ballista, because he might not even be at the same keep as the rest of the group. But these things demand large changes, [snip] so the easiest way to make the game more dynamic is to speed up the process of PvD. Make keeps easy to get and easy to lose. More AP that way.

[edited for bashing]

Billium813

haelgaan wrote: »

ZOS definitely should make defending a keep easier, and increase the rewards for defending. Keeps are cap'd way too fast now - it's far too easy for a small group to capture a defended keep. A good place to start is to allow defenders to repair doors that are under attack. The game cheats in blocking repairs!

Did you not see the scene in Helms Deep? You want to repair the keep doors, you need people to go outside and keep the army occupied while you hasten repairs.

Dr_Con

siege is already capped, 6 people can easily use 20 siege if left uncontested (and they frequently do)

alternatelder

haelgaan wrote: »

ZOS definitely should make defending a keep easier, and increase the rewards for defending. Keeps are cap'd way too fast now - it's far too easy for a small group to capture a defended keep. A good place to start is to allow defenders to repair doors that are under attack. The game cheats in blocking repairs!

They just increased defense rewards within the last 2-3 years by a lot, that's still not enough for you?

zaria

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

No. You're supposed to fight. If the enemy doesn't respond, then fine; but any quicker and the entire game will be quick keep takes with no chance to defend

The problem is the limit to 12 players in group, with pugs you can not organize multiple groups and pug players tend to be less organized and experienced than guild groups. An guild can also coordinate multiple groups.

VaranisArano

You might try looking for a good PVP guild in your time zone and campaign.

My experience is that PUGs are good at many things, but rolling up to a keep, throwing down siege, and breaking in the door fast enough that defenders don't have time to respond is not really one of them. Especially if they aren't using voice comms.

If that's the sort of gameplay you like or if you prefer to have teammates who're coordinated enough to defend themselves and you from enemies while you're sieging, you're probably ready to make the leap to more organized PVP.

Alternatively, if you like PUGing, I suggest calling out your target in zone chat. Try to get the other groups in your alliance heading towards the same target so you've got some strength in numbers. It won't always work and Zone General is usually a pretty unrewarding task, but when it works it's pretty great.

Jaraal

subarctic wrote: »

The game in EU PC Grey Host is way too static and boring. When we had 24 player groups it was easier to take keeps. Today it can be difficult to even get a PUG of 12 people. Often we are just 5-8 people, waiting and looking at the map until we notice that a keep is under attack. Then we move in. But what often happens if a group of 6-12 players decide to take the initiative, on our own, is that we get through the outer main gate only to get killed by incoming defenders, usually when sieging the inner gate or at the flags. This is at least my experience playing for unruly and undisciplined EP on the EU pc server. To get more action and encourage attacks, it seems necessary to make it easier to kick in doors and crumble those walls. With smaller groups the game should be more ninja.

Yep, ZOS apparently doesn't like high keep turnover, as they removed the efficiency of 24 person groups and replaced it with 12 person groups, who frequently get blown up on rams and wiped out. The PC/NA Gray Host map often goes hours without any keeps changing hands because of it. And because of the high failure rate of keep captures most of the players in the current small player population cap end up standing around at base or in home keeps doing nothing.

The original game's keep capture mechanic got wrecked with the group nerf that resulted from the Cyrodiil live server tests. ZOS said they "liked the behavioral changes" of smaller groups, so I guess we're stuck with it.

Jaraal

VaranisArano wrote: »

Alternatively, if you like PUGing, I suggest calling out your target in zone chat. Try to get the other groups in your alliance heading towards the same target so you've got some strength in numbers. It won't always work and Zone General is usually a pretty unrewarding task, but when it works it's pretty great.

The problem with this strategy is that when a keep raid is called out in zone chat, solo players converge on the resources and light them before the front door/wall can be lit. So the alliance under attack has plenty of time to port in defenders, and 12 person groups/ solo zergs get wiped out. With an organized 24 person group, the front door can be lit quickly without resources being take to alert defenders. Plus 24 folks are more likely to be carrying (and using) 20 sieges than 12 person pick up squads.

Amottica

subarctic wrote: »

But the more often a keep flips, the more AP, and it will be more fighting, instead of staring at the map and/or hoping that some other random group or zerg will be there to help you during a siege.

Groups coordinate between themselves even when they are not run by the same people.

kargen27

subarctic wrote: »

Cyrodiil is a huge place that needs more towns and keeps and dungeons and tunnels we can capture. If one group takes a keep, and your group is not in the vicinity, don’t play the riding simulator for 2 min, because you will not get there in time. Instead: take a keep or an equally valuable asset much closer to you. Also give players rewards for good team work: stack at crown for 2 min and you get 100,000 AP, and get a mansion if you somehow manage to stack at crown for 2 min and 30 seconds (an eternity for most gamers). Give a player a new skin or a new mount if he has the discipline to deploy 3 ballistas at the same time when sieging a door. Too often it’s not easy to get a PUG player to deploy even 1 ballista, because he might not even be at the same keep as the rest of the group. But these things demand large changes, [snip] so the easiest way to make the game more dynamic is to speed up the process of PvD. Make keeps easy to get and easy to lose. More AP that way.

More AP should never be a reason to redesign Cyrodiil. Early in the game factions were taking turns flipping keeps just for the AP and the powers that be had to step in and change things because that is not what they wanted Cyrodiil to be. Cyrodiil is where large scale battles are suppose to take place. Adding more keeps, towns or whatever to flip takes away from the chances of the big battles. Huge battles on the bridge used to be a blast.
Performance is what gets in the way of Cyrodiil being what it once was. All Cyrodiil needs is to work better. The design when things go smooth works well. Keeps are spread far enough to provide some strategy when taking the map but not so far as to be obnoxious if you have to ride to get there.

I disagree that devs are to lazy to implement. They are smart enough to know when something would be extremely detrimental to the game.
100K AP for standing around is insane.

[edited to remove quote]

subarctic

I remember now that it sometimes but far from always happened in 2015 that factions took turns flipping a keep just to get AP. This might actually be a good argument against my view.

But often the game is almost “dead in the water” when this has happened the last years, as Jaraal points out:

“Yep, ZOS apparently doesn't like high keep turnover, as they removed the efficiency of 24 person groups and replaced it with 12 person groups, who frequently get blown up on rams and wiped out. The PC/NA Gray Host map often goes hours without any keeps changing hands because of it. And because of the high failure rate of keep captures most of the players in the current small player population cap end up standing around at base or in home keeps doing nothing.”

“ With an organized 24 person group, the front door can be lit quickly without resources being take to alert defenders. Plus 24 folks are more likely to be carrying (and using) 20 sieges than 12 person pick up squads.”

Jaraal seems to have experience with leading both 24 player groups and 12 PUGs, so he knows the problems on the ground. I’ve also led both types of groups, and I’ve played with the best Pact guilds in 2014/15 (with Subhuman), and I’m now in a PvP guild in EU PC Gray Host, but even this guild seldom plays anymore (relatively speaking) because Cyro is too dead and unrewarding and laggy.

Large scale battles made ESO unique in 2014/15. It has mostly deteriorated since then, prb because ESO devs or their bosses don’t care about PvP.

VaranisArano

Jaraal wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Alternatively, if you like PUGing, I suggest calling out your target in zone chat. Try to get the other groups in your alliance heading towards the same target so you've got some strength in numbers. It won't always work and Zone General is usually a pretty unrewarding task, but when it works it's pretty great.

The problem with this strategy is that when a keep raid is called out in zone chat, solo players converge on the resources and light them before the front door/wall can be lit. So the alliance under attack has plenty of time to port in defenders, and 12 person groups/ solo zergs get wiped out. With an organized 24 person group, the front door can be lit quickly without resources being take to alert defenders. Plus 24 folks are more likely to be carrying (and using) 20 sieges than 12 person pick up squads.

Oh, I'd love to go back to 24-man groups in PVP and PVE, but until ZOS improves their servers and coding (and figures out how to handle 24 players+Companions in PVE), I just don't see it happening.

The idea behind calling it out in zone chat is to create your own zerg, effectively. But as you say, the timing is the tricky thing.

finehair

They removed 24 people groups because of the lag related issues. Since the lag still exist and nothing fixed in that matter I think we can get the 24 group cap back again

subarctic

Leading a PUG (or even a pvp guild group) is often like herding cats. ESO gotta give PUG players an incentive to play tactically and strategically smart in groups. But we all know that devs have put Cyro on the back burner, so we prb see no change. PvP will then end up like many other MMOs that nobody plays anymore. It’s almost like ESO is trying to deliberately ruin PvP, which is sad because Cyro was truly great, in the beginning - just as revolutionary as BF1942 - but has since stagnated or gone downhill.

ProudMary

I'm not sure about this. A coordinated 12 man group can still take a keep in about 3 minutes, providing there is not strong opposition. I see the OP's point, but I think the adjustments need to be made in other areas to restore balance. For instance, oils are way too strong right now.

subarctic

As already pointed out: in practice it’s not easy to coordinate a 12 player group, especially not a PUG. If it had been easy, the game would have worked, keeps would have been captured quicker, and there would not have been a reason to create this thread to begin with.

Jaraal

subarctic wrote: »

Leading a PUG (or even a pvp guild group) is often like herding cats. ESO gotta give PUG players an incentive to play tactically and strategically smart in groups. But we all know that devs have put Cyro on the back burner, so we prb see no change. PvP will then end up like many other MMOs that nobody plays anymore. It’s almost like ESO is trying to deliberately ruin PvP, which is sad because Cyro was truly great, in the beginning - just as revolutionary as BF1942 - but has since stagnated or gone downhill.

That's part of why the 24 person groups worked, because if you had three or four members off doing their own thing, it didn't make much difference, as the rest could get the job done. But with a few dead weights in a 12 man, your odds of success decrease sharply.

zaria

ProudMary wrote: »

I'm not sure about this. A coordinated 12 man group can still take a keep in about 3 minutes, providing there is not strong opposition. I see the OP's point, but I think the adjustments need to be made in other areas to restore balance. For instance, oils are way too strong right now.

Agree with you but an pug group is the opposite of well organized 😺

subarctic

Oils are bad now, not PUG friendly at all: 3-4 players at ram, getting burned from above, 3-4 men sieging from afar, and 3-4 men AWOL = playing somewhere else on the map, which means that 1-3 vet defenders can kill my PUG pretty easy, which is not a rewarding experience after riding and riding and riding to a keep.

In real war it’s good for defenders to be able to repel attacks, but it’s boring in a game if devs have for different reasons designed it so the game too often grinds to a halt.

Not saying that quicker sieging is the best or only solution, far from it, but something needs to be done, to get Cyro alive and kicking again, from morning to midnight, as it was in 2015.

Jaraal

subarctic wrote: »

Oils are bad now, not PUG friendly at all: 3-4 players at ram, getting burned from above, 3-4 men sieging from afar, and 3-4 men AWOL = playing somewhere else on the map, which means that 1-3 vet defenders can kill my PUG pretty easy, which is not a rewarding experience after riding and riding and riding to a keep

It's a common strategy to lure siegers away from the door. Go light attack somebody on a ram and get them to chase you around the courtyard for a while. Then once the shorthanded ram crew gets wiped, they will come finish off the stragglers on the walls. It's ridiculously effective, and sometimes very difficult to get people to focus and stay on the door.

subarctic

I type repeatedly in chat: 3 sieges each, and fight at the ram, if oil ain’t too bad. I might as well dress up in a uniform and give orders to my cat (if I had one). Eisenhower on D-Day had an easy job compared to being a PUG leader, seriously. I’m a healer, and others in the crew know that, because I tell em and it can help them stay alive, but instead of them following the crown, I must run after them and try to heal while they are all over the place. This ain’t leading, it’s a joke. My job is actually little more than to keep an eye on chat and invite those who type: lfg (in addition to looking at the map to see when keeps become UA). That’s very easy, but leading is often impossible, mostly because gamers in Cyro don’t have incentives to play as a team.