Nightblade is in despair

Turtle_Bot

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You apparently didn't read everything I wrote.

Most NBs I run into now are sitting at around 30k health with higher than normal armor. Their damage is severely lacking compared to mine, but because they are running with others, it doesn't matter. If they attack me 1v1, they can't kill me.

I have 30k HP. No defending backbar. No defensive monster set. RC/NMG/Balorgh/markyn. I am hitting tanky people for 18-20k bows. I have hit a 30k bow for the first time EVER this patch. I am hitting my properly geared, 3300+ crit resist, 32k+ spell resist friends for 15-18k bows, 11k incaps, 7-9k concealed weapons. I doubt you are hitting harder than these numbers, unless you're playing a straight up gank build. If you are hitting harder and you're still struggling to kill people, I just don't know what to tell you.

ninjagank wrote: »

What I said was, there is no reliable way to 1v1 the current tank meta with a damage class. "Build for defense" means less damage. So what you are insinuating is everyone needs to build for tankiness and just wack one another until someone eventually runs out of resources and the other wins.

People do not run out of resources in this patch in 1v1s if they have any idea at all what they're doing, outside of niche scenarios fighting broken outlier 1v1 builds (zaan serpents coil serpents disdain dot setups, etc). I have no issues at all killing the vast majority of players 1v1 this patch on my nightblade in my open world setup, whereas on literally ANY OTHER CLASS (I play them all bar magsorc) it is significantly harder/impossible sometimes. The only players I cannot outright one shot are those using mara's balm and playing full defensive/not fighting back. That isn't a problem with nightblade, it's a problem with the game's meta.

ninjagank wrote: »

My kill to death ratio is significantly lower than previous patches and I have ran through so many transmutes and gold trying out the latest and greatest "super OP awesome Nightblade Spectacular" and none of them hit hard enough to put down most DKs without help from others. This has not been the case in previous patches.

And I see a whole lot of snarky comments about caluurions. I didn't run that before. I don't run that now.

Without considering things like procs and oakensoul, nightblade is the strongest it has been in the past year at least. DKs are hardly the hardest thing to kill right now - warden is by far the strongest defensively, and templar is objectively harder to kill than DK with the ability to instantly purge your incaps.

It is odd to me that you're saying you have never used calu, but when calu was getting nerfed last PTS you made multiple posts justifying the surprise attack buff because "NB's main proc is being gutted".

ninjagank wrote: »

Either way, anyone calling NBs top class is just wrong. DKs, Templars, Wardens and Necros are all running roughshod over the campaigns, tankier than ever. Let's stop pretending like NBs are remotely competing 1v1 with anyone outside of two tanks just smacking one endlessly. If you push a glass cannon, you can't kill most players without significant help.

If we're citing 1v1s - in the PC NA dueling meta, NB is top dog currently. I have not yet lost a 1v1 in stormhaven or cyrodiil this patch on my RC/NMG/Balorgh/markyn setup. You mentioned glass cannon - my setup is full damage, but not nearly "glass cannon". If you truly wanted to drop all the survivability for that extra bit of damage, I am confident there is not a single player who isn't an actual healer/tank that you couldn't one shot. But the truth is, NB damage is so insane this patch that you simply do not need to.

ninjagank wrote: »

Edit: I am specifically talking about Stamblades. Magblades are doing a little better with tankier set ups.

The thing is, stamina/magicka nightblade do not exist anymore. The game is fully hybridized. On every single class, there is literally no reason at all that you should not be choosing the better morph of every skill in the toolkit.

You are intentionally gimping yourself if you are not using the better morph of every skill and building your sustain accordingly.

How is it arguably better when its heal has been nerfed to oblivion? If that change didnt occur i could agree with you, but not until then.

1 single overperforming sticky heal over time ability got nerfed to bring it in line with other class heal over time abilities.

The class still has one of the best burst heals in the game as well as multiple other reliable HoTs (both in class and out of class) that provide multiple other defensive and offensive buffs on top of strong passive healing as well. Nb was almost as tanky as dks and plars last patch, that is not healthy on a class that is supposed to be a pure dd by design. refreshing path is still an insane HoT providing as much passive healing as plars cleansing ritual on top of also providing major expedition and thanks to the buff to concealed an essentially permanent unique +10% to damage done. healthy offering matches honor the dead and resistent flesh for raw base healing and grants mending on top of this as well. there's also siphoning strikes which is a better and more consistent crit surge that provides sustain instead of major sorcery/brutality which is sourced elsewhere in the class kit. not to mention, the fact that the class has access to minor courage, minor main and minor + major cowardice all within the class kit, that is a swing of around 860 flat raw damage (before % buffs/debuffs) as well as 5% additional mitigation and this is before we even look at the class passives. even dk doesn't have this amount of mitigation outside of using an ultimate (corrosive). The delayed burst also provides up to 300 flat raw weapon and spell damage on top of dealing roughly 1.5 times the base damage (before any buffs) of every other delayed burst skill in the game and also has the potential to give a big burst heal (not reliable, but it is there), 1 ultimate also gives a huge unique +20% increased damage taken by enemies affected by it from all damage sources for a decent duration and being unique debuff, it stacks with major/minor vulnerability/berserk.

So the class is most definitely better than it used to be, it's not even an argument at this stage, especially for anyone who can actually play the class and not crutch on overtuned abilities like the U34 dark cloak or overtuned proc sets like caluurions.

Pure DD by design? Nightblade has one of the most robust healing kits of all the classes.

The forums have this weird depiction that NBs are glass cannon be design. People that want to play glass cannon play NB because they have access to shadowy disguise—NB has so much more at its disposal for survivability. It has the only class source of Major Evasion, it has so many HoTs in its kit, one of the ranged and AoE spammables have secondary healing effects, and until U35, it had one of the very few sources of Minor Resolve. Until U35 changes on veiled strike, nothing about NB screamed “I am the damage class”. Shadowy Disguise has just been a glass cannon crutch for so long that people associate NB with glass cannon.

I know the class has so much more. I was talking about its original design parameters it had years ago, early into the games life. It has had so much more given to it over the years because its the only class that any of the devs actually play so the devs have constantly buffs nbs to become the current jack of all trades master of most that the class is now.

You must not have been around for the elsywer patch 😂

I was around for that patch, believe me, nbs that patch were better off than sorcs are this patch and sorcs are getting nothing next patch either.
At least you nbs have devs that play the class and actually make changes to improve the class, can't say the same for sorcs who only ever get balanced according to the mythical zos spreadsheet. I swear that spreadsheet must be stuck in 2017 like all you nbs with how often it produces sorc nerfs and nb buffs every patch for the past year or so.

To give you an idea of how bad sorcs are in the modern game outside of broken/bugged sets, they had to revert a bunch of the nerfs they made (bound armaments damage) as well as literally double the bonus damage daedric prey gives to pets because the classes only viable build was made so bad on their spreadsheets after the U35 pts week 1 nerfs that they had to do something drastic so the class didn't completely die because of their over nerfing of the class. Hell, even plar which is supposed to be a tanky/brawler melee specialist class has much better range options and builds than sorc whose entire niche is supposed to be ranged dps has.

PhoenixGrey

Nightblade is literally the only class which has enough damage in this tank meta.

It is the #1 pvp class and nothing even comes close

Mannjdyr

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Nightblade is literally the only class which has enough damage in this tank meta.

It is the #1 pvp class and nothing even comes close

DrSlaughtr

I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.

If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.

auz

If you are having trouble with nb, watch this vid.

https://youtu.be/bgRmoWuvAy0

MetallicMonk

ninjagank wrote: »

I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.

If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.

I want to engage with you in an actual discussion but your points are either untrue or seem disingenuous. I run a cloak/shade/dark elf version of the current popular build which has slightly less damage than React's non-cloak Khajit version and 15-20k bows against targets with 2.5k-3k crit resist and 25k+ resists are very common, sometimes even higher when they're lower HP and bloodthirsty kicks in. This also doesn't factor in that you could choose to run a slottable form of breach and a different frontbar set than NMG and have even more damage.

Spectral bow is also not even close to the only good damage you have. Incap hits for monstrous numbers, killer's blade with the new scaling I have hit 15k-25k executes, even concealed a class spammable I have hit for over 10k. 10k on a spammable, that's a number that barely ever gets hit by sorcerer's largest burst ability crystal frags.

This point you keep reiterating in so many posts about losing your spectral bow stacks mid combat rarely happens, unless you're exclusively ganking hitting one target and then re stealthing for extended periods of time.

Nightblade isn't good just because of spectral bow; it's good because it's a class with very high mobility combined with the highest built in class damage(penetration/crit chance/crit damage/% modifiers) with invisibility and possibly the 2nd best burst heal in the game sprinkled on top.

So after all this I'd have to ask you if this class is somehow underperforming to you, what would you change?

auz

@MetallicMonk your last vid was going to be exhibit B. Those tower fights were 👌.

FrankonPC

ninjagank wrote: »

I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.

If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.

I could isolate stone fist and come up with a reason for why the one skill makes dragonknight bad, but it's the overall kit. Also spec bow is awesome

DrSlaughtr

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.

If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.

I could isolate stone fist and come up with a reason for why the one skill makes dragonknight bad, but it's the overall kit. Also spec bow is awesome

Not really sure what this means. I didn't say focus makes NB bad. I said that using it as the "NBs are top tier" argument is disingenuous, essentially. Every comment claiming otherwise is solely about bow proc. It's literally the new caluurions, except it has worse uptime, requires perfect conditions to land, and eats a lot of magicka. I like spectral bow. I even like Assassin's will. I run Merc Resolve every night.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.

If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.

I want to engage with you in an actual discussion but your points are either untrue or seem disingenuous. I run a cloak/shade/dark elf version of the current popular build which has slightly less damage than React's non-cloak Khajit version and 15-20k bows against targets with 2.5k-3k crit resist and 25k+ resists are very common, sometimes even higher when they're lower HP and bloodthirsty kicks in. This also doesn't factor in that you could choose to run a slottable form of breach and a different frontbar set than NMG and have even more damage.

Spectral bow is also not even close to the only good damage you have. Incap hits for monstrous numbers, killer's blade with the new scaling I have hit 15k-25k executes, even concealed a class spammable I have hit for over 10k. 10k on a spammable, that's a number that barely ever gets hit by sorcerer's largest burst ability crystal frags.

This point you keep reiterating in so many posts about losing your spectral bow stacks mid combat rarely happens, unless you're exclusively ganking hitting one target and then re stealthing for extended periods of time.

Nightblade isn't good just because of spectral bow; it's good because it's a class with very high mobility combined with the highest built in class damage(penetration/crit chance/crit damage/% modifiers) with invisibility and possibly the 2nd best burst heal in the game sprinkled on top.

So after all this I'd have to ask you if this class is somehow underperforming to you, what would you change?

Well, I appreciate your willingness to engage in civil conversation until you said "but".

Few points. Let me answer your last question as that's the most important.

Any suggestion I will make has very little to do with NBs specifically and is a general annoyance or the Master of All build options available to (most notably) DKs, as well as a few other classes. This means max damage, max resistances and max healing, and the ability to maximize them all. TTK is through the roof across the board. I watch every night people bogged down in 5+ minute fights that would have lasted a fraction of that 4 updates ago. Defending a keep turns into a rat race around the walls for the better part of a half hour.

So what I would do about is is specifically about the overall survivability vs damage output, and that's to lower TTK down a little bit.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I'm not usually the kind of guy who says "prove it" but in this case, I have to say that I'd love to see you hitting 20k bow procs on a 35k DK. I don't normally go onto my PC account, but I can tell you a vast majority of XB-NA players are running high health DKs, Wardens and Necros, with armor approaching soft cap while throwing out large bursts of damage on top of it.

Listen, at the end of the day, all I pretty much said was the damage doesn't go as far this update. That's it. The people I could 1v1 2 months ago now eat damage much better because of Maras and other changes. The longer it takes me, the more vulnerable I am. It's that simple. So my success ratio has went down this update. By that barometer I consider it a down patch, but it's not horrible by any means. I'm glad people are finding little ways to maneuver. I had to start using a set I've always hated for the extra damage to compensate. It's the way the game works.

Oh, and I know there's a certain amount of elitism that goes on in this game, but I've been playing this class exclusively for over 2 years. I don't claim that my way is the best way or I know better than anyone, but my opinions aren't uneducated. We can disagree and it be okay.

Turtle_Bot

MetallicMonk wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.

If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.

I want to engage with you in an actual discussion but your points are either untrue or seem disingenuous. I run a cloak/shade/dark elf version of the current popular build which has slightly less damage than React's non-cloak Khajit version and 15-20k bows against targets with 2.5k-3k crit resist and 25k+ resists are very common, sometimes even higher when they're lower HP and bloodthirsty kicks in. This also doesn't factor in that you could choose to run a slottable form of breach and a different frontbar set than NMG and have even more damage.

Spectral bow is also not even close to the only good damage you have. Incap hits for monstrous numbers, killer's blade with the new scaling I have hit 15k-25k executes, even concealed a class spammable I have hit for over 10k. 10k on a spammable, that's a number that barely ever gets hit by sorcerer's largest burst ability crystal frags.

This point you keep reiterating in so many posts about losing your spectral bow stacks mid combat rarely happens, unless you're exclusively ganking hitting one target and then re stealthing for extended periods of time.

Nightblade isn't good just because of spectral bow; it's good because it's a class with very high mobility combined with the highest built in class damage(penetration/crit chance/crit damage/% modifiers) with invisibility and possibly the 2nd best burst heal in the game sprinkled on top.

So after all this I'd have to ask you if this class is somehow underperforming to you, what would you change?

not only this, but those concealed's are hitting harder than most sorc ultimates at the moment.... how the hell is a class whose spammable hits harder than another classes ultimate, that also has access to a unique total stackable damage increase of +300 raw damage +30% as well as access to 1/2 the total amount of named buffs in the game including many rarer buffs such as cowardice, berserk, protection, evasion, vulnerability and expedition with access to both major and minor versions of most of these rare buffs at the same time and all of these buffs/debuffs are within the class kit as well, so don't even need to look elsewhere to get these buffs/debuffs, especially expedition which even the supposedly fastest class in the game (sorc) has to choose between major and minor of that buff unless they run RaT from outside the class kit. Also, because many of the buffs/debuffs are provided within the class kit, the class passives will scale so much better than other classes because there are more class abilities on the bars which increases the values that the scaling passives grant without losing any performance or access to buffs/debuffs.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/618634/class-access-to-named-buffs-debuffs#latest

rather telling when the class has access to more than double the amount of effects that half the other classes in the game have, both in terms of usefulness and sheer volume of effects given to nbs. This list also doesn't take into account the unique buffs each class has, of which nb has a crazy amount as well.

But no, soo many nb mains on the forums here are stuck in 2017/18 and cannot get over the "but in Elswyr, we had nothing" mentality to truly see just how overbearingly strong the class has become over the past year with devs like a certain nb main youtuber at the forefront of doing balancing for this game.

MetallicMonk

ninjagank wrote: »

Well, I appreciate your willingness to engage in civil conversation until you said "but".

Few points. Let me answer your last question as that's the most important.

Any suggestion I will make has very little to do with NBs specifically and is a general annoyance or the Master of All build options available to (most notably) DKs, as well as a few other classes. This means max damage, max resistances and max healing, and the ability to maximize them all. TTK is through the roof across the board. I watch every night people bogged down in 5+ minute fights that would have lasted a fraction of that 4 updates ago. Defending a keep turns into a rat race around the walls for the better part of a half hour.

So what I would do about is is specifically about the overall survivability vs damage output, and that's to lower TTK down a little bit.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I'm not usually the kind of guy who says "prove it" but in this case, I have to say that I'd love to see you hitting 20k bow procs on a 35k DK. I don't normally go onto my PC account, but I can tell you a vast majority of XB-NA players are running high health DKs, Wardens and Necros, with armor approaching soft cap while throwing out large bursts of damage on top of it.

Listen, at the end of the day, all I pretty much said was the damage doesn't go as far this update. That's it. The people I could 1v1 2 months ago now eat damage much better because of Maras and other changes. The longer it takes me, the more vulnerable I am. It's that simple. So my success ratio has went down this update. By that barometer I consider it a down patch, but it's not horrible by any means. I'm glad people are finding little ways to maneuver. I had to start using a set I've always hated for the extra damage to compensate. It's the way the game works.

Oh, and I know there's a certain amount of elitism that goes on in this game, but I've been playing this class exclusively for over 2 years. I don't claim that my way is the best way or I know better than anyone, but my opinions aren't uneducated. We can disagree and it be okay.

So pretty much you don't have issues with the class but more the meta currently? If that's the case I agree with you, TTK is too high and people are allowed to play too defensive and players are too tanky.

That being said do you see how it's a bit disingenuous to be vague posting about NB needing something more and insinuating the class isn't powerful when you more have a problem with the meta and not the class?

Even in this boring meta comparatively NB just has a lot more than most other classes.

FrankonPC

ninjagank wrote: »

Not really sure what this means. I didn't say focus makes NB bad. I said that using it as the "NBs are top tier" argument is disingenuous, essentially. Every comment claiming otherwise is solely about bow proc. It's literally the new caluurions, except it has worse uptime, requires perfect conditions to land, and eats a lot of magicka. I like spectral bow. I even like Assassin's will. I run Merc Resolve every night.

I'm not sure where you're seeing people saying solely "bow proc" when what I and others have said is it's the entirety of the kit that makes it strong. It has one of, if not the best spammable in the game, survival is fantastic via healing and it currently has the best finishing power. You can play it as more of a brawler, you can play it as a ganker or a roller blade...or you can even make a solid nightblade healer.

You don't have to take my word for it though, here's the posts in this thread already that have talked about nightblade

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade is crazy good, able to build extremely tanky and still have great heals and great burst damage with guarenteed crits. Literally the only thing that got nerfed was 1hko proc-set crutching ganks.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB is the top overall class for pvp, with only stamden (not magden though) able to compete with the class. The class has insane burst damage, easy and well flowing skill rotations and very strong heals alongside plenty of mitigation and utility.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Nightblade is insane atm lmao.

I have no clue how anybody could think this class is bad, even on paper the offensive stats and the amount of % damage loaded on abilities like incap and concealed is overwhelming. Also it has a ridiculous burst heal that you can spam.

Time to look at what you're doing wrong if you're not having success, not the class.

Also not sure how spectral bow is the new caluurions when it's

1. Older than caluurions
2. A skill that requires activation and use other than crit light/heavy attacks off cooldown

IAmIcehouse

ninjagank wrote: »

I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.

If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.

Every class besides DK largely relies on a single damage skill to kill anyone. In regards to remotely competent players, Templars aren’t killing anyone without purifying light, wardens without shalks, wardens without blastbones, sorc without curse. Every class has some sort of delayed burst they play around. NBs is different in that it hits way harder but cannot couple the damage proc on another GCD. But still, it’s relative burst is, I could be wrong, haven’t looked at it in a bit, only beaten by purifying light. Until next patch.

DrSlaughtr

MetallicMonk wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Well, I appreciate your willingness to engage in civil conversation until you said "but".

Few points. Let me answer your last question as that's the most important.

Any suggestion I will make has very little to do with NBs specifically and is a general annoyance or the Master of All build options available to (most notably) DKs, as well as a few other classes. This means max damage, max resistances and max healing, and the ability to maximize them all. TTK is through the roof across the board. I watch every night people bogged down in 5+ minute fights that would have lasted a fraction of that 4 updates ago. Defending a keep turns into a rat race around the walls for the better part of a half hour.

So what I would do about is is specifically about the overall survivability vs damage output, and that's to lower TTK down a little bit.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I'm not usually the kind of guy who says "prove it" but in this case, I have to say that I'd love to see you hitting 20k bow procs on a 35k DK. I don't normally go onto my PC account, but I can tell you a vast majority of XB-NA players are running high health DKs, Wardens and Necros, with armor approaching soft cap while throwing out large bursts of damage on top of it.

Listen, at the end of the day, all I pretty much said was the damage doesn't go as far this update. That's it. The people I could 1v1 2 months ago now eat damage much better because of Maras and other changes. The longer it takes me, the more vulnerable I am. It's that simple. So my success ratio has went down this update. By that barometer I consider it a down patch, but it's not horrible by any means. I'm glad people are finding little ways to maneuver. I had to start using a set I've always hated for the extra damage to compensate. It's the way the game works.

Oh, and I know there's a certain amount of elitism that goes on in this game, but I've been playing this class exclusively for over 2 years. I don't claim that my way is the best way or I know better than anyone, but my opinions aren't uneducated. We can disagree and it be okay.

So pretty much you don't have issues with the class but more the meta currently? If that's the case I agree with you, TTK is too high and people are allowed to play too defensive and players are too tanky.

That being said do you see how it's a bit disingenuous to be vague posting about NB needing something more and insinuating the class isn't powerful when you more have a problem with the meta and not the class?

Even in this boring meta comparatively NB just has a lot more than most other classes.

I never suggested any buffs to NB. All I ever said was the damage isn't going to far, and I very specifically stated it's because of this Master of All mindset that players have adopted that ZOS has allowed. [snip] some of you people treat the forums as the real End Game PVP. It's okay to have different opinions.

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Not really sure what this means. I didn't say focus makes NB bad. I said that using it as the "NBs are top tier" argument is disingenuous, essentially. Every comment claiming otherwise is solely about bow proc. It's literally the new caluurions, except it has worse uptime, requires perfect conditions to land, and eats a lot of magicka. I like spectral bow. I even like Assassin's will. I run Merc Resolve every night.

I'm not sure where you're seeing people saying solely "bow proc" when what I and others have said is it's the entirety of the kit that makes it strong. It has one of, if not the best spammable in the game, survival is fantastic via healing and it currently has the best finishing power. You can play it as more of a brawler, you can play it as a ganker or a roller blade...or you can even make a solid nightblade healer.

You don't have to take my word for it though, here's the posts in this thread already that have talked about nightblade

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade is crazy good, able to build extremely tanky and still have great heals and great burst damage with guarenteed crits. Literally the only thing that got nerfed was 1hko proc-set crutching ganks.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB is the top overall class for pvp, with only stamden (not magden though) able to compete with the class. The class has insane burst damage, easy and well flowing skill rotations and very strong heals alongside plenty of mitigation and utility.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Nightblade is insane atm lmao.

I have no clue how anybody could think this class is bad, even on paper the offensive stats and the amount of % damage loaded on abilities like incap and concealed is overwhelming. Also it has a ridiculous burst heal that you can spam.

Time to look at what you're doing wrong if you're not having success, not the class.

Also not sure how spectral bow is the new caluurions when it's

1. Older than caluurions
2. A skill that requires activation and use other than crit light/heavy attacks off cooldown

ESO Forums. The real end game PVP.

I said it's the new caluurions because all the people who spent many updates complaining about "trash NBs" running Caluurions are now building completely around spectral bow, just like people built completely around caluurions. I have zero issue with either but it's funny how that worked out, yeah? People are still complaining about caluurions in this thread. Live in the now.

From my perspective, the damage of a pure DPS NB build does not go as far. Even one of the people you quoted mention specifically building tanky. They are likely then stacking damage with friendlies, just like every other tanky build in Cyro right now.

I don't mind dying. I enjoy the thrill of going toe-to-toe with someone knowing I have to actually avoid damage and use speed to maneuver rather than just sit there absorbing damage while waiting for spectral bow. All I ever said was the damage on a pure DPS NB does not go as far because of the current meta. That's it. Why you people can't just understand that is beyond me. I didn't even make this thread.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Alchimiste1

ninjagank wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Well, I appreciate your willingness to engage in civil conversation until you said "but".

Few points. Let me answer your last question as that's the most important.

Any suggestion I will make has very little to do with NBs specifically and is a general annoyance or the Master of All build options available to (most notably) DKs, as well as a few other classes. This means max damage, max resistances and max healing, and the ability to maximize them all. TTK is through the roof across the board. I watch every night people bogged down in 5+ minute fights that would have lasted a fraction of that 4 updates ago. Defending a keep turns into a rat race around the walls for the better part of a half hour.

So what I would do about is is specifically about the overall survivability vs damage output, and that's to lower TTK down a little bit.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I'm not usually the kind of guy who says "prove it" but in this case, I have to say that I'd love to see you hitting 20k bow procs on a 35k DK. I don't normally go onto my PC account, but I can tell you a vast majority of XB-NA players are running high health DKs, Wardens and Necros, with armor approaching soft cap while throwing out large bursts of damage on top of it.

Listen, at the end of the day, all I pretty much said was the damage doesn't go as far this update. That's it. The people I could 1v1 2 months ago now eat damage much better because of Maras and other changes. The longer it takes me, the more vulnerable I am. It's that simple. So my success ratio has went down this update. By that barometer I consider it a down patch, but it's not horrible by any means. I'm glad people are finding little ways to maneuver. I had to start using a set I've always hated for the extra damage to compensate. It's the way the game works.

Oh, and I know there's a certain amount of elitism that goes on in this game, but I've been playing this class exclusively for over 2 years. I don't claim that my way is the best way or I know better than anyone, but my opinions aren't uneducated. We can disagree and it be okay.

So pretty much you don't have issues with the class but more the meta currently? If that's the case I agree with you, TTK is too high and people are allowed to play too defensive and players are too tanky.

That being said do you see how it's a bit disingenuous to be vague posting about NB needing something more and insinuating the class isn't powerful when you more have a problem with the meta and not the class?

Even in this boring meta comparatively NB just has a lot more than most other classes.

I never suggested any buffs to NB. All I ever said was the damage isn't going to far, and I very specifically stated it's because of this Master of All mindset that players have adopted that ZOS has allowed. [snip] some of you people treat the forums as the real End Game PVP. It's okay to have different opinions.

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Not really sure what this means. I didn't say focus makes NB bad. I said that using it as the "NBs are top tier" argument is disingenuous, essentially. Every comment claiming otherwise is solely about bow proc. It's literally the new caluurions, except it has worse uptime, requires perfect conditions to land, and eats a lot of magicka. I like spectral bow. I even like Assassin's will. I run Merc Resolve every night.

I'm not sure where you're seeing people saying solely "bow proc" when what I and others have said is it's the entirety of the kit that makes it strong. It has one of, if not the best spammable in the game, survival is fantastic via healing and it currently has the best finishing power. You can play it as more of a brawler, you can play it as a ganker or a roller blade...or you can even make a solid nightblade healer.

You don't have to take my word for it though, here's the posts in this thread already that have talked about nightblade

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade is crazy good, able to build extremely tanky and still have great heals and great burst damage with guarenteed crits. Literally the only thing that got nerfed was 1hko proc-set crutching ganks.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB is the top overall class for pvp, with only stamden (not magden though) able to compete with the class. The class has insane burst damage, easy and well flowing skill rotations and very strong heals alongside plenty of mitigation and utility.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Nightblade is insane atm lmao.

I have no clue how anybody could think this class is bad, even on paper the offensive stats and the amount of % damage loaded on abilities like incap and concealed is overwhelming. Also it has a ridiculous burst heal that you can spam.

Time to look at what you're doing wrong if you're not having success, not the class.

Also not sure how spectral bow is the new caluurions when it's

1. Older than caluurions
2. A skill that requires activation and use other than crit light/heavy attacks off cooldown

ESO Forums. The real end game PVP.

I said it's the new caluurions because all the people who spent many updates complaining about "trash NBs" running Caluurions are now building completely around spectral bow, just like people built completely around caluurions. I have zero issue with either but it's funny how that worked out, yeah? People are still complaining about caluurions in this thread. Live in the now.

From my perspective, the damage of a pure DPS NB build does not go as far. Even one of the people you quoted mention specifically building tanky. They are likely then stacking damage with friendlies, just like every other tanky build in Cyro right now.

I don't mind dying. I enjoy the thrill of going toe-to-toe with someone knowing I have to actually avoid damage and use speed to maneuver rather than just sit there absorbing damage while waiting for spectral bow. All I ever said was the damage on a pure DPS NB does not go as far because of the current meta. That's it. Why you people can't just understand that is beyond me. I didn't even make this thread.

damage does go far on nb in this meta though

[edited to remove quote]

FrankonPC

ninjagank wrote: »

ESO Forums. The real end game PVP.

I said it's the new caluurions because all the people who spent many updates complaining about "trash NBs" running Caluurions are now building completely around spectral bow, just like people built completely around caluurions. I have zero issue with either but it's funny how that worked out, yeah? People are still complaining about caluurions in this thread. Live in the now.

Skills doing dmg is not the same as procs doing dmg because you can ALSO run the same skills and get even more dmg. I brought up that the only builds that have gotten nerfs this patch have been caluurions nbs and oakensoul nightblades, whereas everyone else got a buff. This is just a statement of fact, but you want to strawman the discussion with some sort of comparison to spectral bow which has been integral to nb burst basically since nb existed and a proc set that outperformed every other proc set in the game. it makes no sense.

From my perspective, the damage of a pure DPS NB build does not go as far. Even one of the people you quoted mention specifically building tanky. They are likely then stacking damage with friendlies, just like every other tanky build in Cyro right now.

survival is high because of the high healing that nb has. most nbs only run rallying cry for mitigation and still survive as well as anyone because their heals are so strong. every link i posted mentioned healing, and you want to deflect to one person saying tankiness as well as healing. another strawman. here's a cmx of one of my friends' small fights in an outnumbered situation. 5k hps is quite high for a 1 v x build

I don't mind dying. I enjoy the thrill of going toe-to-toe with someone knowing I have to actually avoid damage and use speed to maneuver rather than just sit there absorbing damage while waiting for spectral bow. All I ever said was the damage on a pure DPS NB does not go as far because of the current meta. That's it. Why you people can't just understand that is beyond me. I didn't even make this thread.

it goes farther than every other class in the game right now.

I'll quit commenting but the reason people keep responding is because instead of looking at the class as a whole or an argument from one person as a whole you're cherry picking information to fit a narrative that isn't being discussed or doesn't exist. If you think nb is bad, that's your opinion but you haven't brought forward any sort of reasoning/facts via video evidence, combat metrics etc in the same way that others in this thread have.

WhyEvenTry

The damage speaks for itself.

DrSlaughtr

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

ESO Forums. The real end game PVP.

I said it's the new caluurions because all the people who spent many updates complaining about "trash NBs" running Caluurions are now building completely around spectral bow, just like people built completely around caluurions. I have zero issue with either but it's funny how that worked out, yeah? People are still complaining about caluurions in this thread. Live in the now.

Skills doing dmg is not the same as procs doing dmg because you can ALSO run the same skills and get even more dmg. I brought up that the only builds that have gotten nerfs this patch have been caluurions nbs and oakensoul nightblades, whereas everyone else got a buff. This is just a statement of fact, but you want to strawman the discussion with some sort of comparison to spectral bow which has been integral to nb burst basically since nb existed and a proc set that outperformed every other proc set in the game. it makes no sense.

From my perspective, the damage of a pure DPS NB build does not go as far. Even one of the people you quoted mention specifically building tanky. They are likely then stacking damage with friendlies, just like every other tanky build in Cyro right now.

survival is high because of the high healing that nb has. most nbs only run rallying cry for mitigation and still survive as well as anyone because their heals are so strong. every link i posted mentioned healing, and you want to deflect to one person saying tankiness as well as healing. another strawman. here's a cmx of one of my friends' small fights in an outnumbered situation. 5k hps is quite high for a 1 v x build

I don't mind dying. I enjoy the thrill of going toe-to-toe with someone knowing I have to actually avoid damage and use speed to maneuver rather than just sit there absorbing damage while waiting for spectral bow. All I ever said was the damage on a pure DPS NB does not go as far because of the current meta. That's it. Why you people can't just understand that is beyond me. I didn't even make this thread.

it goes farther than every other class in the game right now.

I'll quit commenting but the reason people keep responding is because instead of looking at the class as a whole or an argument from one person as a whole you're cherry picking information to fit a narrative that isn't being discussed or doesn't exist. If you think nb is bad, that's your opinion but you haven't brought forward any sort of reasoning/facts via video evidence, combat metrics etc in the same way that others in this thread have.

[snip]

The current meta sucks. That's my opinion and everything I've said in this thread is based on that. Every [snip] person we run into on XB is running 35k+ health DKs and templars. It's [snip] old and I'm tired of the game rewarding tank groups that can barely kill guards owning the entire map because you literally can't output enough damage to kill one of them let alone all. This is what is happening on XB.

Yeah, you apparently missed that. I cannot provide you with combat metrics because I play on XB primarily. If you want to watch me fighting, I stream every week day. I will happily explain to you live exactly how I feel about this entire topic.

oh, I just wanted to add, looking at that CMX, it appears your buddy spent 99% of the combat doing nothing but healing, just waiting for assassin's will to proc to end the fight with a killer's blade or two. I get that this is enjoyable for some people, but for players like me who don't want to just sit and wait for a proc to fire, it's not enjoyable.

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

FrankonPC

Nobody is arguing with you about this patch being tanky lol. literally every time you've said it people have agreed. I even have my own forum post asking to lower % mitigation because the meta is too tanky. Just seems like your goalpost shifting to this now after your previous statements but it's cool

What people are countering you with is what your original post was:

ninjagank wrote: »

It's not in a good place because players have built so tanky that they can eat and heal out of our burst, then can turn around and kill us in a second.

Most NBs I see are building to 30k health with low damage and just run with big groups to get kills.

If you push max damage, pen and crit, you can't 1v1 most builds at the same level as before.

.

You cannot be killed "in a second" in a good nightblade spec because currently the patch is tanky(like you already said) and the healing on nb specifically is extremely high.

React has his video in here where he's running night mother's gaze, markyn, balorgh and rallying cry. All sets that give damage. Monk has a clip in here where he's running the same build but bow and 2h. Literally stacking weapon dmg and penetration, which you said doesn't work. this is where the discussion is coming from, not from how tanky the patch is.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

[snip]

Now onto the topic of this thread. Nah nb doesn't need buffs at all. I wouldn't complain if we got some nice quality of life changes for certain skills, but life is good. OP if you are still around its not that nb is in despair, its that eso pvp itself is in despair.

[edited for baiting]

auz

ninjagank wrote: »

It's not in a good place because players have built so tanky that they can eat and heal out of our burst, then can turn around and kill us in a second.

Most NBs I see are building to 30k health with low damage and just run with big groups to get kills.

If you push max damage, pen and crit, you can't 1v1 most builds at the same level as before.

There are no reliable proc sets that do enough damage without requiring mentally gymnastics to land.

We really could've used that always flank crit from SA.

For my part I've tried every NB build posted in the last few weeks. None each my kill ratio of the previous several patches.

It's frustrating. I've just tried to accept that this is the new normal until devs do something to help us out.

@ninjagank, just to be clear,

Nb is in a good spot. It's burst is second to none. Has lots of healing, but lacks the resists to be really tanky when building for damage.

Nbs building tanky to run in groups is nothing new. Don't need to build damage when you can drop 12 ults on a single player. Better to not be a vd/plague proc.


If built right, nb is arguably, equal to plar and dk atm, in 1v1.

One of the best parts of this patch, is the lack of over tuned proc sets. Stat builds are feeling strong.

If you are not abusing the 10% extra damage on all attacks after leaving cloak or from refreshing path, are you even nightblading?

See reacts vid

The real problem is you are not adapting to the patch. That doesn't men nb is in a bad spot, just that you don't want to change. And that is a valid complaint. It's ok to like your playstyle and be disappointed when it is not as viable. That does not mean you class is less than others or needs a buff.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

[snip]

Nb is in fact not op or even in the top 3 classes, but nor is it a bad class. [snip] Its a good class and if we weren't in a giga tank stalemate meta it could have been the best easily, but we are. Nbs can have all the burst in the world, but if you can't kill the people abusing the stalemate meta before they can press their heal button 1 time its pointless. Nb isn't the problem and it doesn't need buffs either. Healing is by far the biggest problem and more specifically the fact it gains power from stacking weapon/spell power. Its basic mmo tropes being ravaged by zos in their insane mission to make every build valid. This created a world where only one build is valid because you can just do everything with that one build. Healers, tanks, and damage dealers HAVE to be their own separate category of builds or we will never escape this misery.

[snip]

To the anti nb crowd I say this. Nb cannot be nerfed until the tank meta is solved, it would simply demolish the class. It will be necessary to nerf nb burst in the same patch that finally addresses the tank epidemic. We need the burst that we have to even have a shot at killing these people. You hit someone with a 20k spectral and a 10k incap only to have them erase that burst with a single heal. You know this is wrong because a lot of you are actually smart. 1 class heal should not be more powerful then a full burst combo from an "OP" class. If you can't agree with this basic truth then I give up. Believe what you will. If you truly genuinely have not been exposed to the tank meta, then I urge you to pay a trip to your nearest resource tower and attempt to kill the 5 dks/wardens inside. Then tell me I am wrong.

[edited for baiting]

Melzo

Nb is the strongest class along with stam sorcerers. Nb has a large amount of crit damage and once I got 20 thousand damage with a bow ... On bg ..

In Cyrodiil, this class has the highest damage. since he doesn't need to have much defense and doesn't use defensive sets and cp. I have seen many NBs with 33k HP and hitting 17k with a bow. Ultimate 10k bow 17k and a finisher and you're ready... And yes, they gave out such numbers even according to my dk. my Dk with 35+ka armor.

In the tank meta, this class, oddly enough, breaks through armor...

Melzo

Nb that dealt 20 thousand damage fought face to face without invisibility and had 33 ka life....

Jammy420

ninjagank wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

ESO Forums. The real end game PVP.

I said it's the new caluurions because all the people who spent many updates complaining about "trash NBs" running Caluurions are now building completely around spectral bow, just like people built completely around caluurions. I have zero issue with either but it's funny how that worked out, yeah? People are still complaining about caluurions in this thread. Live in the now.

Skills doing dmg is not the same as procs doing dmg because you can ALSO run the same skills and get even more dmg. I brought up that the only builds that have gotten nerfs this patch have been caluurions nbs and oakensoul nightblades, whereas everyone else got a buff. This is just a statement of fact, but you want to strawman the discussion with some sort of comparison to spectral bow which has been integral to nb burst basically since nb existed and a proc set that outperformed every other proc set in the game. it makes no sense.

From my perspective, the damage of a pure DPS NB build does not go as far. Even one of the people you quoted mention specifically building tanky. They are likely then stacking damage with friendlies, just like every other tanky build in Cyro right now.

survival is high because of the high healing that nb has. most nbs only run rallying cry for mitigation and still survive as well as anyone because their heals are so strong. every link i posted mentioned healing, and you want to deflect to one person saying tankiness as well as healing. another strawman. here's a cmx of one of my friends' small fights in an outnumbered situation. 5k hps is quite high for a 1 v x build

I don't mind dying. I enjoy the thrill of going toe-to-toe with someone knowing I have to actually avoid damage and use speed to maneuver rather than just sit there absorbing damage while waiting for spectral bow. All I ever said was the damage on a pure DPS NB does not go as far because of the current meta. That's it. Why you people can't just understand that is beyond me. I didn't even make this thread.

it goes farther than every other class in the game right now.

I'll quit commenting but the reason people keep responding is because instead of looking at the class as a whole or an argument from one person as a whole you're cherry picking information to fit a narrative that isn't being discussed or doesn't exist. If you think nb is bad, that's your opinion but you haven't brought forward any sort of reasoning/facts via video evidence, combat metrics etc in the same way that others in this thread have.

[snip]

The current meta sucks. That's my opinion and everything I've said in this thread is based on that. Every [snip] person we run into on XB is running 35k+ health DKs and templars. It's [snip] old and I'm tired of the game rewarding tank groups that can barely kill guards owning the entire map because you literally can't output enough damage to kill one of them let alone all. This is what is happening on XB.

Yeah, you apparently missed that. I cannot provide you with combat metrics because I play on XB primarily. If you want to watch me fighting, I stream every week day. I will happily explain to you live exactly how I feel about this entire topic.

oh, I just wanted to add, looking at that CMX, it appears your buddy spent 99% of the combat doing nothing but healing, just waiting for assassin's will to proc to end the fight with a killer's blade or two. I get that this is enjoyable for some people, but for players like me who don't want to just sit and wait for a proc to fire, it's not enjoyable.

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

They were probably also standing still, which bloats the healing on nb, but in actuality, no one is standing still unless they are coupling their heals with meditate, simply not what the nb was meant to do.

ZOS_Icy

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DrNukenstein

Night blade is not in despair, and is probably going to get some nerfs in update 37. But it could use:

-Veiled strike moved to assassination, and mirage moved to shadow. Since the class plays so much more smoothly with the spammable on the same bar as cloak, and currently that requires balancing the shadow passive on both bars
-remove reave on incap, and make the stun standard at 70 ult. The interaction with vamp cost increase is janky and now that veiled doesn't stun, it could be the single target in combat stun nightblades are missing. Reave is kind of a pve thing that synergizes too well with surprise attack.
-Rework bow proc. the need to stack it with weaving doesn't square well with recent design decisions

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Night blade is not in despair, and is probably going to get some nerfs in update 37. But it could use:

-Veiled strike moved to assassination, and mirage moved to shadow. Since the class plays so much more smoothly with the spammable on the same bar as cloak, and currently that requires balancing the shadow passive on both bars
-remove reave on incap, and make the stun standard at 70 ult. The interaction with vamp cost increase is janky and now that veiled doesn't stun, it could be the single target in combat stun nightblades are missing. Reave is kind of a pve thing that synergizes too well with surprise attack.
-Rework bow proc. the need to stack it with weaving doesn't square well with recent design decisions

I just want one of the grim focus morphs to become a melee attack at 5 stacks instead of ranged. Remove the damage increase from merciless resolve to satisfy the people that think it hits too hard, but its melee so its more consistent to land. QOL improvement and nerf caller appeasement all in one.

Idk though relentless focus feels straight up pointless now, so maybe it should be the melee morph. Merciless could get something else instead of the damage increase it has currently. Maybe usable at three stacks instead of 5 or stacks are never removed.

DrNukenstein

I think the bow should work like frenzied momentum, but as a slottable skill. Using any skill (or full heavy) on the bar with the skill should give a 20 second stacking buff that persists between bars and allows you to build stacks on either bar. Then when you have 4 stacks (4 because right now you can hit it with a weave from 4 stacks, or a full heavy from 3) you can cast the bow as an active skill.

Then yeah, the stam morph is useless these days. I like the idea of the stam morph being a melee attack, and the mag morph being ranged. That travel time makes it extremely overrated. We all talk about the time we hit/got hit by a 20k bow, but we get fuzzy on all the times someone got stunned, went to the bathroom, came back, and broke free while that thing was mid-air only to leave us low and nukeless because we bet on the bow working. A melee version with no upkeep aside from maintaining stacks would make it good and not just a novelty. Which it is right now, because it's better to just take the surprise attack crit than roll the bones on bow.