boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
You must not have been around for the elsywer patch 😂
PhoenixGrey wrote: »Nightblade is literally the only class which has enough damage in this tank meta.
It is the #1 pvp class and nothing even comes close
I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.
If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.
I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.
If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.
I could isolate stone fist and come up with a reason for why the one skill makes dragonknight bad, but it's the overall kit. Also spec bow is awesome
MetallicMonk wrote: »
I want to engage with you in an actual discussion but your points are either untrue or seem disingenuous. I run a cloak/shade/dark elf version of the current popular build which has slightly less damage than React's non-cloak Khajit version and 15-20k bows against targets with 2.5k-3k crit resist and 25k+ resists are very common, sometimes even higher when they're lower HP and bloodthirsty kicks in. This also doesn't factor in that you could choose to run a slottable form of breach and a different frontbar set than NMG and have even more damage.
Spectral bow is also not even close to the only good damage you have. Incap hits for monstrous numbers, killer's blade with the new scaling I have hit 15k-25k executes, even concealed a class spammable I have hit for over 10k. 10k on a spammable, that's a number that barely ever gets hit by sorcerer's largest burst ability crystal frags.
This point you keep reiterating in so many posts about losing your spectral bow stacks mid combat rarely happens, unless you're exclusively ganking hitting one target and then re stealthing for extended periods of time.
Nightblade isn't good just because of spectral bow; it's good because it's a class with very high mobility combined with the highest built in class damage(penetration/crit chance/crit damage/% modifiers) with invisibility and possibly the 2nd best burst heal in the game sprinkled on top.
So after all this I'd have to ask you if this class is somehow underperforming to you, what would you change?
MetallicMonk wrote: »
I want to engage with you in an actual discussion but your points are either untrue or seem disingenuous. I run a cloak/shade/dark elf version of the current popular build which has slightly less damage than React's non-cloak Khajit version and 15-20k bows against targets with 2.5k-3k crit resist and 25k+ resists are very common, sometimes even higher when they're lower HP and bloodthirsty kicks in. This also doesn't factor in that you could choose to run a slottable form of breach and a different frontbar set than NMG and have even more damage.
Spectral bow is also not even close to the only good damage you have. Incap hits for monstrous numbers, killer's blade with the new scaling I have hit 15k-25k executes, even concealed a class spammable I have hit for over 10k. 10k on a spammable, that's a number that barely ever gets hit by sorcerer's largest burst ability crystal frags.
This point you keep reiterating in so many posts about losing your spectral bow stacks mid combat rarely happens, unless you're exclusively ganking hitting one target and then re stealthing for extended periods of time.
Nightblade isn't good just because of spectral bow; it's good because it's a class with very high mobility combined with the highest built in class damage(penetration/crit chance/crit damage/% modifiers) with invisibility and possibly the 2nd best burst heal in the game sprinkled on top.
So after all this I'd have to ask you if this class is somehow underperforming to you, what would you change?
Well, I appreciate your willingness to engage in civil conversation until you said "but".
Few points. Let me answer your last question as that's the most important.
Any suggestion I will make has very little to do with NBs specifically and is a general annoyance or the Master of All build options available to (most notably) DKs, as well as a few other classes. This means max damage, max resistances and max healing, and the ability to maximize them all. TTK is through the roof across the board. I watch every night people bogged down in 5+ minute fights that would have lasted a fraction of that 4 updates ago. Defending a keep turns into a rat race around the walls for the better part of a half hour.
So what I would do about is is specifically about the overall survivability vs damage output, and that's to lower TTK down a little bit.
As for the rest of what you wrote, I'm not usually the kind of guy who says "prove it" but in this case, I have to say that I'd love to see you hitting 20k bow procs on a 35k DK. I don't normally go onto my PC account, but I can tell you a vast majority of XB-NA players are running high health DKs, Wardens and Necros, with armor approaching soft cap while throwing out large bursts of damage on top of it.
Listen, at the end of the day, all I pretty much said was the damage doesn't go as far this update. That's it. The people I could 1v1 2 months ago now eat damage much better because of Maras and other changes. The longer it takes me, the more vulnerable I am. It's that simple. So my success ratio has went down this update. By that barometer I consider it a down patch, but it's not horrible by any means. I'm glad people are finding little ways to maneuver. I had to start using a set I've always hated for the extra damage to compensate. It's the way the game works.
Oh, and I know there's a certain amount of elitism that goes on in this game, but I've been playing this class exclusively for over 2 years. I don't claim that my way is the best way or I know better than anyone, but my opinions aren't uneducated. We can disagree and it be okay.
Not really sure what this means. I didn't say focus makes NB bad. I said that using it as the "NBs are top tier" argument is disingenuous, essentially. Every comment claiming otherwise is solely about bow proc. It's literally the new caluurions, except it has worse uptime, requires perfect conditions to land, and eats a lot of magicka. I like spectral bow. I even like Assassin's will. I run Merc Resolve every night.
acastanza_ESO wrote: »
Nightblade is crazy good, able to build extremely tanky and still have great heals and great burst damage with guarenteed crits. Literally the only thing that got nerfed was 1hko proc-set crutching ganks.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »NB is the top overall class for pvp, with only stamden (not magden though) able to compete with the class. The class has insane burst damage, easy and well flowing skill rotations and very strong heals alongside plenty of mitigation and utility.
MetallicMonk wrote: »Nightblade is insane atm lmao.
I have no clue how anybody could think this class is bad, even on paper the offensive stats and the amount of % damage loaded on abilities like incap and concealed is overwhelming. Also it has a ridiculous burst heal that you can spam.
Time to look at what you're doing wrong if you're not having success, not the class.
I took a backseat on this thread because it was getting a little nasty but figured I'd pop back in. I see a lot of claims that NBs are "top tier" because of spectral bow.
If the class has to rely on a single damage skill proc to hurt the vast majority of Cyrodiil builds, I don't consider that "top tier." It's also not just a skill you can fire, but rather you have to build it up, against all odds, as the game likes to kick you in and out of combat quite often. Also it's all well and good to have a 20k tooltip on any skill but by the time it goes through Battle Spirit, armor, crit resist and HoTs, more often than not it's a small fraction of that. The ONLY people getting hit with bow procs over 15k are squishy people you could kill without it.
MetallicMonk wrote: »
So pretty much you don't have issues with the class but more the meta currently? If that's the case I agree with you, TTK is too high and people are allowed to play too defensive and players are too tanky.
That being said do you see how it's a bit disingenuous to be vague posting about NB needing something more and insinuating the class isn't powerful when you more have a problem with the meta and not the class?
Even in this boring meta comparatively NB just has a lot more than most other classes.
I'm not sure where you're seeing people saying solely "bow proc" when what I and others have said is it's the entirety of the kit that makes it strong. It has one of, if not the best spammable in the game, survival is fantastic via healing and it currently has the best finishing power. You can play it as more of a brawler, you can play it as a ganker or a roller blade...or you can even make a solid nightblade healer.
You don't have to take my word for it though, here's the posts in this thread already that have talked about nightblade
Also not sure how spectral bow is the new caluurions when it's
1. Older than caluurions
2. A skill that requires activation and use other than crit light/heavy attacks off cooldown
I never suggested any buffs to NB. All I ever said was the damage isn't going to far, and I very specifically stated it's because of this Master of All mindset that players have adopted that ZOS has allowed. [snip] some of you people treat the forums as the real End Game PVP. It's okay to have different opinions.
ESO Forums. The real end game PVP.
I said it's the new caluurions because all the people who spent many updates complaining about "trash NBs" running Caluurions are now building completely around spectral bow, just like people built completely around caluurions. I have zero issue with either but it's funny how that worked out, yeah? People are still complaining about caluurions in this thread. Live in the now.
From my perspective, the damage of a pure DPS NB build does not go as far. Even one of the people you quoted mention specifically building tanky. They are likely then stacking damage with friendlies, just like every other tanky build in Cyro right now.
I don't mind dying. I enjoy the thrill of going toe-to-toe with someone knowing I have to actually avoid damage and use speed to maneuver rather than just sit there absorbing damage while waiting for spectral bow. All I ever said was the damage on a pure DPS NB does not go as far because of the current meta. That's it. Why you people can't just understand that is beyond me. I didn't even make this thread.
ESO Forums. The real end game PVP.
I said it's the new caluurions because all the people who spent many updates complaining about "trash NBs" running Caluurions are now building completely around spectral bow, just like people built completely around caluurions. I have zero issue with either but it's funny how that worked out, yeah? People are still complaining about caluurions in this thread. Live in the now.
From my perspective, the damage of a pure DPS NB build does not go as far. Even one of the people you quoted mention specifically building tanky. They are likely then stacking damage with friendlies, just like every other tanky build in Cyro right now.
I don't mind dying. I enjoy the thrill of going toe-to-toe with someone knowing I have to actually avoid damage and use speed to maneuver rather than just sit there absorbing damage while waiting for spectral bow. All I ever said was the damage on a pure DPS NB does not go as far because of the current meta. That's it. Why you people can't just understand that is beyond me. I didn't even make this thread.
Skills doing dmg is not the same as procs doing dmg because you can ALSO run the same skills and get even more dmg. I brought up that the only builds that have gotten nerfs this patch have been caluurions nbs and oakensoul nightblades, whereas everyone else got a buff. This is just a statement of fact, but you want to strawman the discussion with some sort of comparison to spectral bow which has been integral to nb burst basically since nb existed and a proc set that outperformed every other proc set in the game. it makes no sense.
survival is high because of the high healing that nb has. most nbs only run rallying cry for mitigation and still survive as well as anyone because their heals are so strong. every link i posted mentioned healing, and you want to deflect to one person saying tankiness as well as healing. another strawman. here's a cmx of one of my friends' small fights in an outnumbered situation. 5k hps is quite high for a 1 v x build
it goes farther than every other class in the game right now.
I'll quit commenting but the reason people keep responding is because instead of looking at the class as a whole or an argument from one person as a whole you're cherry picking information to fit a narrative that isn't being discussed or doesn't exist. If you think nb is bad, that's your opinion but you haven't brought forward any sort of reasoning/facts via video evidence, combat metrics etc in the same way that others in this thread have.
It's not in a good place because players have built so tanky that they can eat and heal out of our burst, then can turn around and kill us in a second.
Most NBs I see are building to 30k health with low damage and just run with big groups to get kills.
If you push max damage, pen and crit, you can't 1v1 most builds at the same level as before.
.
It's not in a good place because players have built so tanky that they can eat and heal out of our burst, then can turn around and kill us in a second.
Most NBs I see are building to 30k health with low damage and just run with big groups to get kills.
If you push max damage, pen and crit, you can't 1v1 most builds at the same level as before.
There are no reliable proc sets that do enough damage without requiring mentally gymnastics to land.
We really could've used that always flank crit from SA.
For my part I've tried every NB build posted in the last few weeks. None each my kill ratio of the previous several patches.
It's frustrating. I've just tried to accept that this is the new normal until devs do something to help us out.
[snip]
The current meta sucks. That's my opinion and everything I've said in this thread is based on that. Every [snip] person we run into on XB is running 35k+ health DKs and templars. It's [snip] old and I'm tired of the game rewarding tank groups that can barely kill guards owning the entire map because you literally can't output enough damage to kill one of them let alone all. This is what is happening on XB.
Yeah, you apparently missed that. I cannot provide you with combat metrics because I play on XB primarily. If you want to watch me fighting, I stream every week day. I will happily explain to you live exactly how I feel about this entire topic.
oh, I just wanted to add, looking at that CMX, it appears your buddy spent 99% of the combat doing nothing but healing, just waiting for assassin's will to proc to end the fight with a killer's blade or two. I get that this is enjoyable for some people, but for players like me who don't want to just sit and wait for a proc to fire, it's not enjoyable.
[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]
DrNukenstein wrote: »Night blade is not in despair, and is probably going to get some nerfs in update 37. But it could use:
-Veiled strike moved to assassination, and mirage moved to shadow. Since the class plays so much more smoothly with the spammable on the same bar as cloak, and currently that requires balancing the shadow passive on both bars
-remove reave on incap, and make the stun standard at 70 ult. The interaction with vamp cost increase is janky and now that veiled doesn't stun, it could be the single target in combat stun nightblades are missing. Reave is kind of a pve thing that synergizes too well with surprise attack.
-Rework bow proc. the need to stack it with weaving doesn't square well with recent design decisions