How They Could Change One Thing to Stop 99% of All Guild Bank Robberies

NoxPerpetuo

I've seen multiple ESO guilds crumble and collapse after a guild bank robbery, where one jerk withdraws the entire contents of the guild bank, then drops guild. The resulting in-fighting and drama often drives players away from the social aspects of ESO. Guild members from those guilds often end up leaving in bunches, with lots of players quitting the game, too. Without their favorite guild calling them back, I suppose they stop caring, and go looking for some other form of entertainment. Those players could have been easily retained, had measures been in place to prevent such stupidity from happening. It would take a minor change to guild permissions settings, really.

Currently, since day one, there is a setting in guild permissions where you can turn guild bank access on or off for any rank. Why not add a sub-setting where you can dictate how many withdrawals per server cycle a player of a certain rank can make? (Reset the count at server change, don't use a timer for each withdrawal, to save on processing.) This way, low ranked members can be limited to taking only one or two items per day. Higher ranked members could be given a higher limit, or perhaps if you do not enter a number in that field at all, the rank in question could have unlimited withdrawals in order to do bank inventory maintenance.

This change would also allow Guild Masters to safely allow guild bank access for newer, less trusted, likely lower level guild members. This would mean the people who could use the items would actually be more likely to gain access to those items in a guild bank. This would mean less crap data and inventory junk stored on the servers, too.

More players retained, plus less crap stored FOREVER on the servers, plus fewer guild bank robberies? That would be a win, win, win, you ask me.

code65536

That's not a simple change. That requires storing an extra piece of information for every member in every guild.

Here's a simpler solution that I've seen many guilds successfully use since the dawn of time: "If you want something from the guild bank, contact an officer"

After all, a withdrawal limit of 1 won't help if the newcomer withdraws that one style page worth several million gold, now would it?

Nestor

While I have heard stories of Officers going Rogue, it is rare (I think i have seen it mentioned twice). The best policy is to leave withdrawls to Officers. I don't get asked all that often, so this is not a chore for me personally.

EmEm_Oh

Why not have a large withdrawal requiring a guild officer to approve the sale/withdrawal. Like the other post mentioned.

For single items that have tremendous value, you'd add a special note requiring an officer and guildmaster to approve the sale.

Ashtaris

code65536 wrote: »

That's not a simple change. That requires storing an extra piece of information for every member in every guild.

Here's a simpler solution that I've seen many guilds successfully use since the dawn of time: "If you want something from the guild bank, contact an officer"

After all, a withdrawal limit of 1 won't help if the newcomer withdraws that one style page worth several million gold, now would it?

I look at guild banks a bit differently. If you put something in a guild bank, it's for others in the guild to use. If you put a style page worth several million gold in the bank, and it gets withdrawn, that is your problem. Sure, it might take a bit more development code to add guild bank permissions, but this has been a problem since the game was created and ZOS has never done anything to address it. Honestly, I doubt they ever will, but just about every guild I have ever belonged to has had their bank emptied by some jerk.

woufff

I'm fully with the OP, setting different guild permissions based on guild rank would indeed be a very good idea in any case and really appreciated, being GM myself here.

I've played Star Trek Online for many years and had of course also a 'guild' there (and still have) and it was very easy to set a different daily limit for each and every rank.

Elendir2am

I am giving items in guild bank, which I want my guild mates take, if they have any use of them. I don't understand this thread therefore.

RealLoveBVB

Nestor wrote: »

I don't get asked all that often, so this is not a chore for me personally.

But exactly this is the issue. Many players are too shy or just don't want to bother a officer for a cheap item.

I experienced a robbery myself in my social guild and we had to make it "officers only" too. But the outcome is, that the bank is 500/500 full the most times now and we have to sell cheap items to make space again.

Most players are honest and when they draw something out, they put something in the bank too. It's a action of 20 seconds and most players aren't going to bother officers for such a procedure.

Looking forward for a technical solution too.

Veryamedliel

code65536 wrote: »

That's not a simple change. That requires storing an extra piece of information for every member in every guild.

Here's a simpler solution that I've seen many guilds successfully use since the dawn of time: "If you want something from the guild bank, contact an officer"

After all, a withdrawal limit of 1 won't help if the newcomer withdraws that one style page worth several million gold, now would it?

While I agree with the sentiment, I also can't deny that leaving a style page worth millions in a free-to-take guild bank is pretty.. well stupid to say the least.

That said, I wouldn't object to have the ability to set a certain amount of items (be it a set amount per object type or total objects) to take per rank. I would prefer that to be able to set that per day/week/-insert time limit- or just permanent access though. If you do it per cycle you'll still put the same pressure on the officers albeit a bit later in time. Might as well use the current system in place then.

LikiLoki

You can make it easier. If the guild bank can create multiple tabs and divide it into compartments. A separate rank will be available for each bank branch.

Memory_In_Motion

Clearly some thoughtful coding is required to make guild banks fair and equitable and safe for guild member use.

Battle_Hymn

I used to rob Corporations (Guilds) all the time in Eve-Online, Made billions but I had to work for it. Would never dream of doing it to the guilds that I'm in ESO, partly because it is just too easy and it's not that type of game. I can't believe how basic the guild bank settings are. Scratch that, I can believe it.

NoxPerpetuo

Ohh. I like the tabs idea, too! That would look really slick, all those tabs. I want those for my guild's bank!

I just, IDK, I really wish they'd update guild permissions to reflect how groups of people actually behave. Most people are honest, good, follow the rules, want to share with their friends, etc. (Or, maybe I'm a gullible fool to think that way. Oh well. LOL) The good people aren't the ones I'm worried about. They'll mostly keep being okay, even if there is an option for them to act like jerks. All it takes is one bad guy, one angry, crazy, vengeful, greedy little ***, though, and a peaceful group of friends can erupt in hideous drama, trying to find someone to blame for what that one guy does.

Sure, you can kick that guy if you figure out his evil plans before (or while) he is doing them, but by then, the damage is already done. Cue the icky drama. Nooooo.

opalcity

The tab thing and the permissions thing are basic guild-bank things in Neverwinter. The Guild leaders can set what permissions each rank can have, and the bank is split into several tabs. If anyone donated a big-ticket item, it would be put in the highest vault that only three of us could access. Then we would raffle off the things in that vault, or give them away as prizes in competitions or for helping in guild events.

We would also put new members on probation which meant they couldn't access the bank, so you'd quickly see who was there to play and who was there to try and steal because they don't like playing the long game to rank up.

jaws343

Ashtaris wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

That's not a simple change. That requires storing an extra piece of information for every member in every guild.

Here's a simpler solution that I've seen many guilds successfully use since the dawn of time: "If you want something from the guild bank, contact an officer"

After all, a withdrawal limit of 1 won't help if the newcomer withdraws that one style page worth several million gold, now would it?

I look at guild banks a bit differently. If you put something in a guild bank, it's for others in the guild to use. If you put a style page worth several million gold in the bank, and it gets withdrawn, that is your problem. Sure, it might take a bit more development code to add guild bank permissions, but this has been a problem since the game was created and ZOS has never done anything to address it. Honestly, I doubt they ever will, but just about every guild I have ever belonged to has had their bank emptied by some jerk.

Doesn't this argument just counter the idea that something needs to change?

Either, the items in the guild bank are up for grabs, and that means that someone may take advantage of that situation. Or the items are so coveted they need extra coding to ensure that some player doesn't come in and take it all.

The reality is, the majority of things in every guild bank I have ever had access to were off trait overland set pieces and duplicates upon duplicates of event style pages that no one needs.

There really is no need to change the coding with how these items are restricted. Guilds just need to adjust the way the offer guild bank access to members, instead of giving away the keys within a week of joining the guild.

Kirawolfe

This is likely too much work, but I think it'd be better to have an approval for withdrawals system.

Member goes to withdraw, items are held aside (pending) but not withdrawn until officer/leader provides approval.

ziggy29

Another thing -- and this would require some recoding work since the guild banks in ESO are not set up that way -- is to have different sections or "tabs" in a bank with different permissions. Some might have withdrawal for officers only. Some may also allow more veteran/trusted members of the guild to have some withdrawal rights. Some might allow (for example) anyone in the guild to take, say, one item a day. Others could be "junk" tabs that are free for alls (largely for newbies and such). I've been a guild officer and even GM in other MMOs, and when the bank is implemented this way, this is how we typically set it up.

But the guild bank, as implemented here, has a "one size fits all" to everything in it. And since there can be some really rare and valuable stuff in there from time to time, the most restrictive policy (withdrawal by officers only) is commonly used. With other systems, the only stuff that gets "robbed" would be the "junk" sections I mentioned above, and would they even bother?

NoxPerpetuo

Approval for withdrawal is another good idea.

I wonder which way, the daily limit, the tabs, or the approval method would be the easiest/cheapest for them to code and then support?

If they ever do decide to address this issue, I bet those would be the deciding factors for the guys at corporate. Cost to implement, and cost to support. I honestly wouldn't mind ANY of those three solutions.

Arunei

Elendir2am wrote: »

I am giving items in guild bank, which I want my guild mates take, if they have any use of them. I don't understand this thread therefore.

The problem is when one person comes in and steals EVERYTHING, not for their own use but either to a) make money off the goodwill and generosity of others, or b) just be an a-hole and clean out a bank because they're mad at someone or over something in the Guild they're in. Most of us who donate to Guild banks mean for the items to be used by other Guildies who actually need or can use said items. What we DON'T intend is for one person to swipe things they have absolutely no need for and are just being greedy, selfish, rude, or some combo of the three.

There really does need to be some sort of ability to grant individuals access to the bank, rather than entire ranks. Keep in mind there's a limit to the number of unique ranks you can have. You can have access to restricted to higher ranks that people only get to if they're trusted, but you literally never know what someone might do unless you know them in person as well (and even then they can surprise you).

For example, several months ago a Guild I'm co-GM of had numerous items stolen by someone the GM considered a friend, someone they'd interacted with before and trusted. Even people who make it to Officer (if the rank is restricted to such) can easily turn on the Guild, clear out the bank, and leave before anyone realizes what's happening. Now granted, my example means that giving individuals access could still come back and bite the Guild in the butt, but it's a lot less likely than people at lower ranks stealing things.

And yeah, it can be a hassle trying to get stuff out of a bank with restricted access. So maybe a withdrawal limit that can be attached to each rank would be better. If you can only withdraw 5 things, it might wind up being expensive things, but at least you can't rob the entire bank. Daily limits at least give GMs time to review withdrawals and stuff and remove access for people who are seem suspicious.

rpa

Guild banks tend to have a problem of being chronically full with no obsessive warehouse manager to remove and sell / decon / destroy the junk which does not move.

bmnoble

All my guilds handle it by having members ask an officer if they want something from the bank and if the officer agrees they mail those items to the person asking.

One of my guilds only opens the bank up to all members every now and then to clear out all the low value stuff that builds up, while high value stuff is withdrawn ahead of time to be used in auctions to help pay for the trader bid.

So long as guilds choose to use the honesty box method with guild banks you will always get jerks that take everything.

EmEm_Oh

Elendir2am wrote: »

I am giving items in guild bank, which I want my guild mates take, if they have any use of them. I don't understand this thread therefore.

Guild mate only stays around long enough to take your guild mates' gold and special items you deposited. Fake guild mate leaves with all the bank's special expensive items and gold.

Fake guild mate signs up with another guild the next day...

Amottica

code65536 wrote: »

That's not a simple change. That requires storing an extra piece of information for every member in every guild.

Here's a simpler solution that I've seen many guilds successfully use since the dawn of time: "If you want something from the guild bank, contact an officer"

After all, a withdrawal limit of 1 won't help if the newcomer withdraws that one style page worth several million gold, now would it?

This is the easiest way to go about it and what

Overall I do agree that our guild banks are to simplistic in design. We should be able to have at least two tabs and set permissions separately for both tabs. Valuable items (as defined by guild leadership) in one tab and anything else in the other. Each rank will have separate permissions for the two pages.

I have seen this in other games and keeps the stored information per rank vs per member. However, it still requires leadership to be responsible for how and to whom they grant access. That is the core of the problem.

jle30303

Honestly, I have seen better player organisation in the stick-figure game Kingdom of Loathing, despite the fact that it's been going since 2003.

(where player organisations are called Clans, to distinguish them from Guilds which are the NPC class-based organisations - by analogy with the Fighters, Mages and Thieves Guilds of ESO.)

And a better clan stash system too. With effective anti-looting protection, I should know, I designed most of it.

And a better player store and mall system too.

I really do encourage people to look at that game for how player interaction, organisation and trading is handled. The fact that it's a stick-figure turn-based game with limited turns per day is neither here nor there: the point is how it handles player clans, their shared stashes with protection against looting, and player mall stores.

kevkj

I would like to be able to use the guild bank as a means for guild members to withdraw consumables (food, pots, siege). I am happy to subsidize new(er) players that I'm friendly with. A stack of spell pots for them to use for a couple of runs for example is not much to me. What I would not be able to afford is the risk of them clearing out ALL the food and pots to hoard/sell/whatever.

A withdrawal limit would be a feature I very much welcome. I can see this fall apart in guilds where actual valuable items are deposited, which would necessitate separate tabs for ranks. Of course guilds already work around this by having officers withdraw items for members, but if it was possible to have this built into the game then why not?

Hämähäkki

NoxPerpetuo wrote: »

I've seen multiple ESO guilds crumble and collapse after a guild bank robbery, where one jerk withdraws the entire contents of the guild bank, then drops guild.

Happend to my guild once. I reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief and we have to be more carefull in whom wie give access. In my case, nobody but me. Since you normally don't know the player in person, you can't trust em. At least this is what I think ZOS wants to say with this.
So yeah I would totally appreciate some sort of guild bank control.

Zodiarkslayer

Hämähäkki wrote: »

... reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief ...

What? Seriously?
That is wrong on so many levels!

Hämähäkki

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Hämähäkki wrote: »

... reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief ...

What? Seriously?

Oh I am dead serious. So just mark yourself as a thief and you're free to go I guess.

Until this point, my guild bank was for helping new players with crafting mats, bufffood and stuff like that. After that it was just an extra storage box.

Ashtaris

jaws343 wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

That's not a simple change. That requires storing an extra piece of information for every member in every guild.

Here's a simpler solution that I've seen many guilds successfully use since the dawn of time: "If you want something from the guild bank, contact an officer"

After all, a withdrawal limit of 1 won't help if the newcomer withdraws that one style page worth several million gold, now would it?

I look at guild banks a bit differently. If you put something in a guild bank, it's for others in the guild to use. If you put a style page worth several million gold in the bank, and it gets withdrawn, that is your problem. Sure, it might take a bit more development code to add guild bank permissions, but this has been a problem since the game was created and ZOS has never done anything to address it. Honestly, I doubt they ever will, but just about every guild I have ever belonged to has had their bank emptied by some jerk.

Doesn't this argument just counter the idea that something needs to change?

Either, the items in the guild bank are up for grabs, and that means that someone may take advantage of that situation. Or the items are so coveted they need extra coding to ensure that some player doesn't come in and take it all.

The reality is, the majority of things in every guild bank I have ever had access to were off trait overland set pieces and duplicates upon duplicates of event style pages that no one needs.

There really is no need to change the coding with how these items are restricted. Guilds just need to adjust the way the offer guild bank access to members, instead of giving away the keys within a week of joining the guild.

No, that's not suppose to be how it works. Let me break it down for you. You join a guild to be with your brother and sisters because you share a common goal and vision for the guild. You are suppose to have each others back, and not try to take advantage of other guildies. So we put stuff in the the guild bank for others to enjoy and use to help them enjoy the game. Not for ONE jerk to come in and empty the entire guild bank of the most valuable items robbing the others of what they might need. Usually that person does it entirely for profit, leaves the guild immediately after the robbery, and really had no intention of being part of the guild.

A simple permission/limit system would reduce this problem considerably. For example, limit new guildies to no withdrawals from the guild bank for the first two weeks. See if they stick around participate in guild activities. Next, allow 5 withdrawals per day or some other daily limit. And perhaps later, you can change their permission to unlimited when they are going to be decent members that you can trust.

Ashtaris

Hämähäkki wrote: »

NoxPerpetuo wrote: »

I've seen multiple ESO guilds crumble and collapse after a guild bank robbery, where one jerk withdraws the entire contents of the guild bank, then drops guild.

Happend to my guild once. I reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief and we have to be more carefull in whom wie give access. In my case, nobody but me. Since you normally don't know the player in person, you can't trust em. At least this is what I think ZOS wants to say with this.
So yeah I would totally appreciate some sort of guild bank control.

If someone from ZOS actually told you this, that's the most lame excuse I've seen yet for not taking action. Sheesh.

Androrix

Hämähäkki wrote: »

NoxPerpetuo wrote: »

I've seen multiple ESO guilds crumble and collapse after a guild bank robbery, where one jerk withdraws the entire contents of the guild bank, then drops guild.

Happend to my guild once. I reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief and we have to be more carefull in whom wie give access. In my case, nobody but me. Since you normally don't know the player in person, you can't trust em. At least this is what I think ZOS wants to say with this.
So yeah I would totally appreciate some sort of guild bank control.

Shocking. Shocking. Shocking. And basically a disgusting abdication of responsibility by the mod. I don't guild at all and now I am glad I don't. Honestly, if this happened to me I would feel utterly violated. I doubt I would be able to play the game again. If the person can be identified, an IP ban is absolutely essential. @ZOS_Kevin