How They Could Change One Thing to Stop 99% of All Guild Bank Robberies

EF321

opalcity wrote: »

The tab thing and the permissions thing are basic guild-bank things in Neverwinter. The Guild leaders can set what permissions each rank can have, and the bank is split into several tabs. If anyone donated a big-ticket item, it would be put in the highest vault that only three of us could access. Then we would raffle off the things in that vault, or give them away as prizes in competitions or for helping in guild events.

We would also put new members on probation which meant they couldn't access the bank, so you'd quickly see who was there to play and who was there to try and steal because they don't like playing the long game to rank up.

Making couple separate tabs each with own permission per rank would be best. So you could have space for everyone to share their low value items, space for raffle stuff/high value donations, space for management to store items for guild needs, etc.



In fact, I'd like tabs for normal bank and home storage too, so I can separate items into "for sale", "shared gear", "consumables" etc.

redlink1979

Not sure if this can be easily solved/addressed.
Already seen some "trustful" members of some guilds I'm part of going rogue after maybe 1 year into the guilds.

Dawnblade

Every other MMO solved this issues years ago with subdivided guild banks (e.g. tabs) that each have their own permissions tied to guild ranks, including full access, limited withdrawal, deposit only, view only, and no access.

And really, ZOS saying someone who clears out a guild bank might just be RP'ing a 'thief' - sad.

NoxPerpetuo

My guild does things this way with our guild bank:

1 - Since it's too risky to grant most members totally unlimited access, only officers are granted access.
2 - If someone wants something from the bank, they are encouraged to ask an officer. (They usually don't ask.)
3 - Once a week, sometimes more if the bank is full, random items from the bank are withdrawn, posted in chat, and offered as part of a 'Free Stuff, Take 1' event. Members can claim one item from the list of available items in chat, and it will be mailed to them free of charge. We don't even require donations or participation for members to claim a 'Take 1' item. Any unclaimed items are re-deposited in the guild bank.

This system mostly works to keep the bank secure, but since most people can't withdraw, they don't tend to deposit either. Only the officers deposit. The loot in the bank is limited, as a result, to the kind of loot dropped in the activities the guild's (fewer than 10) officers happen to like to do. The items available lack variability, and there are bunches of unclaimed duplicate items I'd LOVE to see withdrawn and used to help my fellow guildies ASAP.

It's honestly an insane amount of busy work for me, too, when what I really want to be doing is slaying some monsters, stomping some opponents, and winning huge piles of loot with my friends. Instead, I am forced to make up for an ill-designed guild permissions system by gatekeeping people's access to a guild feature, so a few morons don't use a longstanding loophole to wreck the peace and tranquility of my guild. Instead of playing the game, I am forced to do the ESO equivalent of ::shudder:: paperwork. I come to ESO to escape IRL stuff like that, but I still do it because I want people to get access to the benefits of being in my guild, like having a guild bank full of goodies.

Sure, with some kind of limited access guild bank permission in place, there would still be ways to game the system. One of the unfortunate facts about groups of people is that, while most people are generally okay, there is always a chance that one turd will ruin it for everyone else in the pool.

I just want it to be harder for the people who drive players away from ESO, and easier for people like me, who are trying their hardest to bring and keep more players in.

We all know what can happen to an MMORPG if too many players abandon ship. ::doom::doom::doom::

ApoAlaia

Dawnblade wrote: »

Every other MMO solved this issues years ago with subdivided guild banks (e.g. tabs) that each have their own permissions tied to guild ranks, including full access, limited withdrawal, deposit only, view only, and no access.

And really, ZOS saying someone who clears out a guild bank might just be RP'ing a 'thief' - sad.

I wonder if that defence would work with let's say... taking advantage of an exploit to illegitimately acquire crown store items for instance.

'No, you cannot ban my account, I was just roleplaying as a trickster you see? now get off my case, you are crimping my style.'

kurbbie_s

NoxPerpetuo wrote: »

I've seen multiple ESO guilds crumble and collapse after a guild bank robbery, where one jerk withdraws the entire contents of the guild bank, then drops guild. The resulting in-fighting and drama often drives players away from the social aspects of ESO. Guild members from those guilds often end up leaving in bunches, with lots of players quitting the game, too. Without their favorite guild calling them back, I suppose they stop caring, and go looking for some other form of entertainment. Those players could have been easily retained, had measures been in place to prevent such stupidity from happening. It would take a minor change to guild permissions settings, really.

Currently, since day one, there is a setting in guild permissions where you can turn guild bank access on or off for any rank. Why not add a sub-setting where you can dictate how many withdrawals per server cycle a player of a certain rank can make? (Reset the count at server change, don't use a timer for each withdrawal, to save on processing.) This way, low ranked members can be limited to taking only one or two items per day. Higher ranked members could be given a higher limit, or perhaps if you do not enter a number in that field at all, the rank in question could have unlimited withdrawals in order to do bank inventory maintenance.

This change would also allow Guild Masters to safely allow guild bank access for newer, less trusted, likely lower level guild members. This would mean the people who could use the items would actually be more likely to gain access to those items in a guild bank. This would mean less crap data and inventory junk stored on the servers, too.

More players retained, plus less crap stored FOREVER on the servers, plus fewer guild bank robberies? That would be a win, win, win, you ask me.

why is it zos problem that you guys are allowing people to use the guild bank? You shouldnt allow anyone in the guild bank.

Kingsindarkness

Hämähäkki wrote: »

Happend to my guild once. I reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief

And yet no one believes me when I talk about how mad folks get when I Roleplaying in Vet trials...

NettleCarrier

I don't understand why people use guild banks to store valuable items. Any large guild (mine included) with a few officers is easy enough to just restrict gold withdrawal to only the highest tier and store any valuable auction items on alternate characters specifically designated to hold those items. Most of them I see even have an alternate account to store such things so that donation mail doesn't clog up a player's mailbox. It's 100% easier for me to have the items in the guild bank be a free for all so people can swap intricates and recipes with each other, it just doesn't make sense to store anything else and restrict that perk. I had one dude take 250+ stacks of recipes from us once and after kicking him I sent him a small sum of gold and thanked him for cleaning out the garage :P

NoxPerpetuo

I’ve seen several changes happen in the last few years that indicate ZoS is trying to encourage players to use, consume, sell or decon items stored in inventories instead of holding them forever on mules, just in case.

Transmutation + sticker book, for instance, allowed me to delete more than half of my gear mules and replace them with real, playable characters. It was like they gave me six free character slots, so I was super happy about those changes.

More use of data and less data hoarding is good for a multi-user database, IMHO. Less redundant data to parse and reference means the server can operate with more efficiency.

Of course, they didn’t FORCE me to decon all that hoarded gear and then transmute and use mats to get it back, but they did make it the most attractive option, since mats stack, I have a craft bag full of goodies, and a few hours of play can earn you enough transmute crystals to retrait/reconstruct a whole character’s gear.

I wish they’d take the same track with guild banks. Make it the most attractive option for GM’s to allow bank access to more players if they so choose. Those players could then use and consume the items (data) that is currently stored out of reach for those players. The GM’s who wish to use their banks to store high-end items would obviously not want to change their policies, of course. I know I’d change my policies in my guild if there was a way to allow limited access to new guildies. I’d open the bank for all, limited to 1 withdrawal per day, keep the gold off-limits for obvious reasons, and breathe a sigh of relief that I wouldn’t need to do constant maintenance on the thing or risk getting ripped off and the guild destroyed by drama.

Oh yes, and since deposits already don’t auto-stack in guild banks, that wouldn’t need to change, either. I’d just leave deposits unstacked, instead of having to go in and stack them by hand to free up more slots. People would withdraw one item, maybe every day, and then the items would get used up as intended instead of NEEDing to be stacked when they build up because no one but officers has access anyways. Guild bank maintenance (boooooriiiiing) would be limited. I could go play the actual game more.

MasterSpatula

CGPsaint

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Lol. I remember reading this thread when it was originally posted!

TaSheen

CGPsaint wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Lol. I remember reading this thread when it was originally posted!

Me too!

kargen27

Ashtaris wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

That's not a simple change. That requires storing an extra piece of information for every member in every guild.

Here's a simpler solution that I've seen many guilds successfully use since the dawn of time: "If you want something from the guild bank, contact an officer"

After all, a withdrawal limit of 1 won't help if the newcomer withdraws that one style page worth several million gold, now would it?

I look at guild banks a bit differently. If you put something in a guild bank, it's for others in the guild to use. If you put a style page worth several million gold in the bank, and it gets withdrawn, that is your problem. Sure, it might take a bit more development code to add guild bank permissions, but this has been a problem since the game was created and ZOS has never done anything to address it. Honestly, I doubt they ever will, but just about every guild I have ever belonged to has had their bank emptied by some jerk.

The problem being members of trade guilds sometimes donate items to be used in raffles or auctions to help raise funds for a trader. The two solutions for this problem is either lock the bank to officers only or send items for raffles and auctions to an officer through mail. Both work and are used but it would be much easier on officers if they could have more options about what can be taken and by who.

SithisKhajitiiLamae

I have my own guild and I let anyone of any rank withdrawal whatever they want as long as they don't empty the whole thing in one go.

I seen no reason to limit other guild members from being able to take things from the bank meant for the guild just because some people are inconsiderate.

Just give them a suitable punishment and move on. No big deal. Its still a game at the end of the day.

bmnoble

SithisKhajitiiLamae wrote: »

I have my own guild and I let anyone of any rank withdrawal whatever they want as long as they don't empty the whole thing in one go.

I seen no reason to limit other guild members from being able to take things from the bank meant for the guild just because some people are inconsiderate.

Just give them a suitable punishment and move on. No big deal. Its still a game at the end of the day.

The thing is you get people who join the guild empty your guild bank then leave and go do the same in another guild.

The way one of my guilds handled it is they open the guild bank on set days after the GM takes out anything especially valuable to be used for the weekly auction to help pay for the trader bid whatever is left is up for grabs.

AzuraFan

To handle the "emptying the bank" problem, maybe the guild leader and officers could set a daily withdrawal limit, as others have suggested.

To handle the "someone took out something valuable and then sold it and made millions" problem, make anything withdrawn from a guild bank bound to the character that withdraws it.

NoxPerpetuo

Oh! Good idea @AzuraFan !

kargen27

AzuraFan wrote: »

To handle the "emptying the bank" problem, maybe the guild leader and officers could set a daily withdrawal limit, as others have suggested.

To handle the "someone took out something valuable and then sold it and made millions" problem, make anything withdrawn from a guild bank bound to the character that withdraws it.

Not sure this would work. First problem is sometimes a player will take items out of the bank stack them and then put them back to free up inventory space. 2nd problem is some players have a private guild bank and might be storing things there to later be sold.

ArchMikem

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Hämähäkki wrote: »

... reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief ...

What? Seriously?
That is wrong on so many levels!

I'm a Solo player, tried Guilds before but they were always a problem one way or another to which I'm back being alone again. Frankly, the last guild I was in made me an Officer before I chose to leave. If I had known I could get away scot free, without consequence to my account, I'd have cleaned them out too. Or at least taken "a fair share" as a severance package. Oh well.

NoxPerpetuo

For some guilds, unlimited or no bank access is enough. These should definitely still be options. I would never suggest that ZoS remove these options from guild permissions because they definitely suit certain GM’s styles. But I suspect there are a lot of GMs out there who would rejoice at not having to actively gatekeep a feature that could largely be automated, like with the ranks/tabs/permissions idea, or the limited daily withdrawals based on rank idea.

I also like the idea of items withdrawn from a guild bank becoming bound. I really do like that idea, except now that I think on it some more, I also see some issues there that might make a simple solution into a really complicated one.

tincanman

Hämähäkki wrote: »

Happend to my guild once. I reported the player but ZOS told me they wouldn't do anything, as this could be a "roleplayer" playing a thief ...

I'm surprised they didn't 'role-played' right back at that 'thief' by stating the traditional penalty for getting caught thieving is to chop off the hands and confiscate all their property - or ban the account and transfer all player game assets into the guild bank robbed as an equivalent action. Maybe have the thief's avatar locked in the town stocks/gibbet for good measure?

Or, if feeling merciful, all characters are reduced to 10% of movement, attributes, damage, healing etc for x game hours with an unremovable icon above any of their character's heads that symbolises 'thief' - game equivalent of branding or having nose cut off (or was traditional nose-snipping for adultery?)

Lots of possiblities to 'role-play' against such knavery.

/s

tincanman

Different guilds have different needs: eg. a trading guild tends to exercise pretty much absolute restrictions for obvious competitive reasons.

The only guilds I've seen with 'open' banks to all members tend to be much smaller, social guilds where such an 'honour' system (replace with equivalent of what you withdraw or otherwise behave reasonably) is approrpriate simply because the small guild size means everyone pretty much knows everyone else quite well. Also, as I think someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, most people are in the 'ok' part of the bell-curve, with outliers who are saints and demons.

But, generally, having unrestricted guild bank access is unfortunately and practically inviting someone to come along and clear it out at some point or other.

So, I'm in agreement with the 'ask an officer' view.

Olen_Mikko

That's the risk when having an open bank policy. Never store anything too valuable in it, or store only stuff you're willing to lose.

I've had my guild's bank cleared couple of times, but that's the risk I take.

Nothing wrong, albeit being a *** move.

AzuraFan

kargen27 wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

To handle the "emptying the bank" problem, maybe the guild leader and officers could set a daily withdrawal limit, as others have suggested.

To handle the "someone took out something valuable and then sold it and made millions" problem, make anything withdrawn from a guild bank bound to the character that withdraws it.

Not sure this would work. First problem is sometimes a player will take items out of the bank stack them and then put them back to free up inventory space. 2nd problem is some players have a private guild bank and might be storing things there to later be sold.

The stack thing could be an issue but I'm sure ZOS could figure out a way around that. Also it would be great if we could take one item off a stack from the bank (guild or otherwise).

As for the private guild bank, I'd say tough. That's not the intended usage of a guild bank.

wolfie1.0.

Better yet. How about this. In addition to withdrawal limits gms and people of designated authority can assign a gold value to items in the guild bank. Players with appropriate positioning can then withdrawal said items so long as the value is paid.

Also, allow the guild officers to list items in a guild trader directly from the guild bank.

Or a few dozen other guild enhancements. That we will never get.

NoxPerpetuo

All I know is, if I felt sure no one could easily rob the bank until it’s 0/500 because limited access permissions kind prevented it (so many good ideas!) I’d do two things: 1. Open up some form of limited bank access to -everyone- in my guild and 2. Feel encouraged to deposit more stuff, knowing that at least some of it wouldn’t just sit there unused and filling up the bank inventory until the end of time

Sure, there would still be occasional ways someone could abuse any system, but if abuse was discouraged enough by a system change, those few people could easily be dealt with internally.

kargen27

AzuraFan wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

To handle the "emptying the bank" problem, maybe the guild leader and officers could set a daily withdrawal limit, as others have suggested.

To handle the "someone took out something valuable and then sold it and made millions" problem, make anything withdrawn from a guild bank bound to the character that withdraws it.

Not sure this would work. First problem is sometimes a player will take items out of the bank stack them and then put them back to free up inventory space. 2nd problem is some players have a private guild bank and might be storing things there to later be sold.

The stack thing could be an issue but I'm sure ZOS could figure out a way around that. Also it would be great if we could take one item off a stack from the bank (guild or otherwise).

As for the private guild bank, I'd say tough. That's not the intended usage of a guild bank.

Why is is not intended? You get five guild slots. It takes ten players (or one player with ten accounts) to start a guild. It might not be the primary use of guild slots but by design having your own guild bank is very easy.

Ugrak

Guild bank access could be handled like a guild store. You go in and buy an item and it is mailed to you. Except instead of buying the item, an officer releases it to the one making the request.

This way the guild bank is open to all at the same time as being locked to all except the officers with bank autorization.

Vulkunne

Over the years if its one thing I've learned is it only takes one person to screw things up for everyone.

Usually its them being selfish however sometimes they will do their dirt and move on and there is no closure for why they did what they did. No justice.

The solution is this, you want to hope for the best but expect the worse, especially from people. No one wants to hear it, I wish I didn't have to say it, but its true. There are good people out there, also true.

But it only takes one turd to ruin a party and they will do it and they will keep doing it. You have to be prepared and there is no safety net, no excuse for not being prepared. Guild Leaders, the burden of proof is first on you to protect your Guild and keep it and everyone else safe. As is the rewards.

I'll just leave it at that.

ghastley

This seems more like a membership problem. If you let anyone join, you’ll get thieves.

Invitation only membership -> open bank
Open membership -> withdrawal only by officers.