The state of Empower

Billium813

Live:

Empower: Increases the damage of your Light, Medium and Heavy Attacks by 40%.

v8.1.0:

• Empower: This buff now increases Light and Heavy Attack Damage by 1800 rather than 40%.

v8.1.3:

• Empower: This buff now increases your damage against monsters with Heavy Attacks by 80%

v8.1.5 (based on developer comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AQbux733aw):

• Empower: This buff now increases your damage against monsters with Fully Charged Heavy Attacks by 80%

Is Empower dead now with these changes? What was the point of nerfing this buff into oblivion?

fizl101

It will be alive for heavy attack builds, light attack users will ignore it

Billium813

fizl101 wrote: »

It will be alive for heavy attack builds, light attack users will ignore it

Is there such a thing as full charged heavy attack builds? Healers and Tanks I suppose do full charged heavy attacks, but would a group bother with Empower for those non-DPS roles? Perhaps if Empower also increased the resources returned?

Consider Empowering Sweep, which grants Empower. What DPS build is going to Empowering Sweep, then do fully charged Heavy Attacks for the next 10 seconds? With Empower on any traditional DPS skill, it seems like an almost pointless Buff now. It'd be like if they put Major Expedition on Flurry or Major Mending on Biting Jabs. The buff doesn't seem to fit the role the skill takes anymore.

jaws343

Billium813 wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

It will be alive for heavy attack builds, light attack users will ignore it

Is there such a thing as full charged heavy attack builds? Healers and Tanks I suppose do full charged heavy attacks, but would a group bother with Empower for those non-DPS roles? Perhaps if Empower also increased the resources returned?

Consider Empowering Sweep, which grants Empower. What DPS build is going to Empowering Sweep, then do fully charged Heavy Attacks for the next 10 seconds? With Empower on any traditional DPS skill, it seems like an almost pointless Buff now. It'd be like if they put Major Expedition on Flurry or Major Mending on Biting Jabs. The buff doesn't seem to fit the role the skill takes anymore.

Lots of builds, especially solo or 4 man builds, use fully charged heavy attacks.

They are intentionally removing the effectiveness of empower from use by top end players who do fewer heavy attacks, example being they added this to Oakensoul, a mythic whose very purpose is to bridge the gap for lesser skilled or able players. So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

xStaticx

If empower is changed to only working on fully charged heavy attacks then it is a 75% nerf to channeled heavies compared to the current pts version. It would also be a 50% nerf to the live version as well.

Billium813

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

Billium813

xStaticx wrote: »

If empower is changed to only working on fully charged heavy attacks then it is a 75% nerf to channeled heavies compared to the current pts version. It would also be a 50% nerf to the live version as well.

How did you calculate that?

acastanza_ESO

Billium813 wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

If empower is changed to only working on fully charged heavy attacks then it is a 75% nerf to channeled heavies compared to the current pts version. It would also be a 50% nerf to the live version as well.

How did you calculate that?

Only the final tick of Lightning and Restoration staff heavy attacks count as "fully charged". But unlike an inferno staff where you don't get damage from those partially charged (medium) attacks unless you release early and stop charging the attack, the Lighting and Resto staves always do their damage spread out across all the ticks. I do think it is slightly back loaded through so 75% might not be entirely accurate.

jaws343

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

The thing is, I think they were pretty forward about the way these changes would all be implemented over this patch and the next few patches. They are worrying about the way and how much damage is done first this patch, and then they threw in some hasty content re-balancing on the top, probably way earlier than they intended, to quell some of the outrage.

But still, they very clearly told us they would be focusing on balance issues after this patch that arose from these changes. So, I would fully expect them to make some set adjustments next patch once they have had an opportunity to see the impact of the changes from this patch.

Edited to add that there is also plenty of trial gear that isn't even useful in trials, so that isn't really a valid thing to point to when complaining about these changes making some sets not relevant.

Lalothen

xStaticx wrote: »

If empower is changed to only working on fully charged heavy attacks then it is a 75% nerf to channeled heavies compared to the current pts version. It would also be a 50% nerf to the live version as well.

It's a 27.5% nerf to lightning staff heavies.

Of course, Lightning staff heavies are also already nerfed by 18.7% total compared to Live (2% reduction stated in patch notes, 16.7% from losing a channeled tic).

Unless they double the modifier, it's a solid nerf to the point where HA builds are once again infeasible compared to LA builds - and that's regardless of the buffs to noble duelist & sergeant's mail.

Billium813

jaws343 wrote: »

But still, they very clearly told us they would be focusing on balance issues after this patch that arose from these changes. So, I would fully expect them to make some set adjustments next patch once they have had an opportunity to see the impact of the changes from this patch.

Fair enough, I hope they do make further changes down the road.

My main point is that they have changed the Empower buff to a degree now that I believe it no longer meets the original design intention and has changed the scope of use. They have made a change to the buff that fundamentally shifts who will use this, but I just want it to be understood that this change needs to go further if this is the intended direction for Empower.

I'm not debating the validity of the change from LA/HA -> fully charged HA. It may well have been needed to close the gap on weaving DPS. I just think they need to go back to the drawing board then for this buff and re-evaluate its new audience, its intended usage, and where those users will get it. I think several of the skills that currently grant Empower now no longer make any sense or rather Empower becomes pointless. Several other skills would benefit from the new direction for Empower. I think they need to look at who does HAs and what benefit would they get from having Empower. I think support roles like Healer and Tank would want Empower more than DPS would and those roles would rather see an increase in resources returned from a fully charged HA, rather than damage.

For example:

• Wrecking Blow - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds How many fully charged HAs can you even do in 3 seconds? Increase the duration perhaps? Also, does this synergize with the Follow Up passive?
• Solar Flare - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Again, duration seems a bit weak. I do like this on Dark Flare, which also gives a Major Defile debuff. I can see a healer support applying this and then perhaps having a followup HA with a staff. But Solar Barrage would be more of a DPS skill. Solar Barrage does extend the duration to 8 seconds, but again, I don't think a DPS role using this is going to bother with fully charged HAs for the next 10 seconds. And if they do, they get maybe, 1 attack in the next 8 seconds? So that gets buffed by +80%? big whoop.
• Empowering Sweep - Gain Empower for the duration Granted, this may be a large window. The user may be able to get several fully charged HAs in during that time. But my DPS argument persists. I don't see a traditional DPS role using this ultimate, then using fully charged HAs for 6 - 16 seconds. Originally, the DPS would be using LA/MA weaving and the benefit is clear! With fully charged HAs, I don't see it.
• Empowering Chains - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Same duration issue. 3 seconds just doesn't seem long enough. It might as well say "Grants your next HA +80% damage". At least that would give you time to use the buff. Also, after you Chains into combat, this is your window to burst damage! Not spam fully charged HAs.
• Ambush - Also grants you Empower and Minor Berserk for 10 seconds Duration seems ok. Perhaps it's good for PvP, but I don't think a DPS role would use the HA that much or at all.

merpins

Yeah, Empower will de a dead skill next patch for most people, and unless it's buffed to 120%, heavy attack builds won't be worth while for harder content. It's not like they were worth while for harder content on live, but they can at least allow you to participate in that content at a level where you can participate.

There's honestly not much of a solution here. Increase the power of fully charged heavies by 120% or higher is probably the best bet. We can't have medium attack weaving as the meta, it goes against the idea of the patch (which is a terrible patch, but still). Even if they were to buff light attacks by 40% and leave medium attacking on empower, medium attacks would still do double the DPS of light attacks. Don't really see much wiggle room here aside from nuking the skill, since ZoS will probably just slap on "fully charged" without actually balancing the skill.

Billium813

merpins wrote: »

Yeah, Empower will de a dead skill next patch for most people, and unless it's buffed to 120%, heavy attack builds won't be worth while for harder content. It's not like they were worth while for harder content on live, but they can at least allow you to participate in that content at a level where you can participate.

There's honestly not much of a solution here. Increase the power of fully charged heavies by 120% or higher is probably the best bet. We can't have medium attack weaving as the meta, it goes against the idea of the patch (which is a terrible patch, but still). Even if they were to buff light attacks by 40% and leave medium attacking on empower, medium attacks would still do double the DPS of light attacks. Don't really see much wiggle room here aside from nuking the skill, since ZoS will probably just slap on "fully charged" without actually balancing the skill.

What are your thoughts on changing the Buff to increase the resources returned from fully charged HAs, instead of just upping the damage more and more until it becomes relevant? I feel like changing it to a fully charged HA centric buff makes it much more applicable to support roles, where the resources returned is more valuable than the actual damage.

Marto

Billium813 wrote: »

Is Empower dead now with these changes? What was the point of nerfing this buff into oblivion?

The point of the empower change is to turn it into a buff that only some players want, in only some types of builds. Instead of a boring "You need 100% uptime of this buff on all builds, at all times, no matter what" buff.

ESO would be a much better game if situational buffs like this were the norm, rather than the exception.

Billium813

Marto wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Is Empower dead now with these changes? What was the point of nerfing this buff into oblivion?

The point of the empower change is to turn it into a buff that only some players want, in only some types of builds. Instead of a boring "You need 100% uptime of this buff on all builds, at all times, no matter what" buff.

ESO would be a much better game if situational buffs like this were the norm, rather than the exception.

I agree with your point that more niche buffs make the game more interesting and really open up the landscape. But, there needs to be a happy medium between 100% required uptime and no one bothers because it's pointless. The roles that care about fully charged HA, don't care about damage, so why will any build bother? And no, I don't want "happy accident" buffs that no one plans or cares about but sometimes do something 1% of the time.

The real boring part of Empower is that not only is it incredibly niche now, but its also an uninspiring +80% damage to fully charged HAs. Who cares? If they are gonna completely nuke a buff and make it niche, they may as well take it back to the drawing board and start over with something interesting.

Marto

Billium813 wrote: »

I agree with your point that more niche buffs make the game more interesting and really open up the landscape. But, there needs to be a happy medium between 100% required uptime and no one bothers because it's pointless. T

You'd think, right?

Buffs lasting a limited time is like, RPG design 101. It allows for a more dynamic combat system, where strategy and good timing is required to take advantage of buffs and debuffs. X skill reduces an enemy's poison for the next attack? Make sure you get a strong poison spell. A potion increases crit chance for 10s? Make sure to use it with fast attacks to maximize damage.

But then the ESO endgame community, obsessed with optimization as they are, would try to use every unforseen loophole and awkward system interaction to ensure a 100% uptime, even with buffs that weren't intended to be kept 100% of the time.

And then they'll get upset when ZOS fixes what could be argued to be an exploit, and they complain about ZOS taking away the "fun".

This is what happened to Empower, Major Force, Major Vulnerability, and Minor Brittle. Situational buffs that got forced into high uptime.

Didgerion

I'm sure the empower saga is not ending here. Get some popcorn, find a comfortable chair and keep watching.

amgame308_ESO

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

Do you have a thread from ESO that states Empower was for LA weaving?

Billium813

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

Do you have a thread from ESO that states Empower was for LA weaving?

Disclaimer: The storied history of Empower is long and cumbersome. There used to be Major/Minor Empower, it used to buff your next attack (not just LA/HA) specifically, and there were even stacks of Empower. It has been changed multiple times in all kinds of versions. When I said "original point", I will admit I was embellishing since the whole buff has been changing repeatedly since 2015 down to what we have now.

I couldn't find a specific post that stated "Empower is for weaving". The best I could find is an old PTS update from 2018 that specifically changed Empower to target LA (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/413283/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-0-5-summerset-amp-update-18). However, in my opinion, it feels pretty obvious if you just look at the updates they have done to it and what skills/sets they put it on that it's expected to be used with weaving. The current incarnation, on Live, buffs LA/HA damage... who would care about that other than 1) new players, 2) weaving ?

It's on Aegis of Galenwe, which is a trials set, so they must expect it to have end game potential. What would be the point of giving 11 allies Empower to buff their LA/HA damage if not for weaving? You expecting the DPS in your raid to just start spamming LAs & HAs when they get the buff? Unless you buff the damage +200%, no one is going to do that b/c it'd be a DPS loss. Yes, LA/HA could fit into a rotation as a regular action, but that's essentially "weaving", just slower and less potential for damage.

amgame308_ESO

Billium813 wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

Do you have a thread from ESO that states Empower was for LA weaving?

Disclaimer: The storied history of Empower is long and cumbersome. There used to be Major/Minor Empower, it used to buff your next attack (not just LA/HA) specifically, and there were even stacks of Empower. It has been changed multiple times in all kinds of versions. When I said "original point", I will admit I was embellishing since the whole buff has been changing repeatedly since 2015 down to what we have now.

I couldn't find a specific post that stated "Empower is for weaving". The best I could find is an old PTS update from 2018 that specifically changed Empower to target LA (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/413283/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-0-5-summerset-amp-update-18). However, in my opinion, it feels pretty obvious if you just look at the updates they have done to it and what skills/sets they put it on that it's expected to be used with weaving. The current incarnation, on Live, buffs LA/HA damage... who would care about that other than 1) new players, 2) weaving ?

It's on Aegis of Galenwe, which is a trials set, so they must expect it to have end game potential. What would be the point of giving 11 allies Empower to buff their LA/HA damage if not for weaving? You expecting the DPS in your raid to just start spamming LAs & HAs when they get the buff? Unless you buff the damage +200%, no one is going to do that b/c it'd be a DPS loss. Yes, LA/HA could fit into a rotation as a regular action, but that's essentially "weaving", just slower and less potential for damage.

I do remember some of those Empower iterations.

Do you have a thread or any official ESO tutorial on how to do LA weaving? Was LA weaving ever an intended gameplay mechanic? Anything that any dev has ever said LA weaving was getting a buff or nerf? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't believe LA weaving was ever intended nor was animation canceling. I've always considered is a technique players figured out and a limitation of the game engine. They wanted you to have that Elder Scrolls feel in game but never wanted LA weaving to be such an integral part of gameplay. Normal and Vet content I always thought was a good comprise. The casuals can do normal content and the Sweaty hardcore could do vet.

I could be wrong because now, why after all this time change it?

Billium813

Billium813 wrote: »

For example:

• Wrecking Blow - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds How many fully charged HAs can you even do in 3 seconds? Increase the duration perhaps? Also, does this synergize with the Follow Up passive?
• Solar Flare - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Again, duration seems a bit weak. I do like this on Dark Flare, which also gives a Major Defile debuff. I can see a healer support applying this and then perhaps having a followup HA with a staff. But Solar Barrage would be more of a DPS skill. Solar Barrage does extend the duration to 8 seconds, but again, I don't think a DPS role using this is going to bother with fully charged HAs for the next 10 seconds. And if they do, they get maybe, 1 attack in the next 8 seconds? So that gets buffed by +80%? big whoop.
• Empowering Sweep - Gain Empower for the duration Granted, this may be a large window. The user may be able to get several fully charged HAs in during that time. But my DPS argument persists. I don't see a traditional DPS role using this ultimate, then using fully charged HAs for 6 - 16 seconds. Originally, the DPS would be using LA/MA weaving and the benefit is clear! With fully charged HAs, I don't see it.
• Empowering Chains - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Same duration issue. 3 seconds just doesn't seem long enough. It might as well say "Grants your next HA +80% damage". At least that would give you time to use the buff. Also, after you Chains into combat, this is your window to burst damage! Not spam fully charged HAs.
• Ambush - Also grants you Empower and Minor Berserk for 10 seconds Duration seems ok. Perhaps it's good for PvP, but I don't think a DPS role would use the HA that much or at all.

I want to point out more changes I think they need to make for the new Empower:

• Grisly Gourmet - Dealing Light Attack damage grants you a stack of Baker's Delight for 5 seconds. When you gain 3 stacks, you create a Sweetroll next to your target for 5 seconds. If you or an ally touches the Sweetroll, both you and your ally gain one of the following effects: -Restore 1593 Health, Magicka and Stamina -Gain Empower for 10 seconds -Gain Major Force for 10 seconds This effect can occur once every 2 seconds.

  This set is really clunky now with Empower buffing fully charged HAs. The set wants you to use LAs to gain stacks of Baker's Delight, but Empower buffs fully charged HAs now. The timings for fully charged HAs and using LAs makes the Empower buff pointless.

• Aegis of Galenwe - When you Block, you grant Empower to 11 allies within 15 meters for 3 seconds

  It's unlikely anyone in your group will benefit from this buff. There may be like 1 HA focused build in the whole group! Your support classes might benefit, but there aren't 11 of those and they don't care about more damage. Plus, it's only 3 seconds so the window is incredibly small to get your ONE fully charged HA in. The original intention of putting Empower on Aegis of Galenwe seems really good and clear: allow the tank to put out a buff that increases the DPS weaving damage. The DPS can get the buff, not even realize or have to plan for it, they can just go on with their rotation and will do more damage! Now, Empower is too specialized to matter.

• Might of the Lost Legion - When you Block, you gain Empower, increasing the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 40% for 3 seconds.

  This seems ok I guess. Blocking is more something that a support expects to do, but again, the duration is abysmal and supports don't really care about +80% damage.

• Queen's Elegance - When you use a Light Attack you reduce the Health, Magicka, or Stamina cost of your next active ability cast within 2 seconds by 10%. When you use a fully charged Heavy Attack you gain Empower for 3 seconds, increasing the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 40%.

  I'm not sure about this set or how people currently use it (if at all). Previously, I could see it used just as a LA ability reduction set and the fully charged HA proc would be a happy accident sometimes. Now, with the new Empower, it could be a fully charged HA spamming set. Seems really niche, but surprisingly, I'm ok with that from a base game, overland set.

Firstmep

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But still, they very clearly told us they would be focusing on balance issues after this patch that arose from these changes. So, I would fully expect them to make some set adjustments next patch once they have had an opportunity to see the impact of the changes from this patch.

Fair enough, I hope they do make further changes down the road.

My main point is that they have changed the Empower buff to a degree now that I believe it no longer meets the original design intention and has changed the scope of use. They have made a change to the buff that fundamentally shifts who will use this, but I just want it to be understood that this change needs to go further if this is the intended direction for Empower.

I'm not debating the validity of the change from LA/HA -> fully charged HA. It may well have been needed to close the gap on weaving DPS. I just think they need to go back to the drawing board then for this buff and re-evaluate its new audience, its intended usage, and where those users will get it. I think several of the skills that currently grant Empower now no longer make any sense or rather Empower becomes pointless. Several other skills would benefit from the new direction for Empower. I think they need to look at who does HAs and what benefit would they get from having Empower. I think support roles like Healer and Tank would want Empower more than DPS would and those roles would rather see an increase in resources returned from a fully charged HA, rather than damage.

For example:

• Wrecking Blow - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds How many fully charged HAs can you even do in 3 seconds? Increase the duration perhaps? Also, does this synergize with the Follow Up passive?
• Solar Flare - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Again, duration seems a bit weak. I do like this on Dark Flare, which also gives a Major Defile debuff. I can see a healer support applying this and then perhaps having a followup HA with a staff. But Solar Barrage would be more of a DPS skill. Solar Barrage does extend the duration to 8 seconds, but again, I don't think a DPS role using this is going to bother with fully charged HAs for the next 10 seconds. And if they do, they get maybe, 1 attack in the next 8 seconds? So that gets buffed by +80%? big whoop.
• Empowering Sweep - Gain Empower for the duration Granted, this may be a large window. The user may be able to get several fully charged HAs in during that time. But my DPS argument persists. I don't see a traditional DPS role using this ultimate, then using fully charged HAs for 6 - 16 seconds. Originally, the DPS would be using LA/MA weaving and the benefit is clear! With fully charged HAs, I don't see it.
• Empowering Chains - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Same duration issue. 3 seconds just doesn't seem long enough. It might as well say "Grants your next HA +80% damage". At least that would give you time to use the buff. Also, after you Chains into combat, this is your window to burst damage! Not spam fully charged HAs.
• Ambush - Also grants you Empower and Minor Berserk for 10 seconds Duration seems ok. Perhaps it's good for PvP, but I don't think a DPS role would use the HA that much or at all.

All of these have been lengthened. Solar flare, chains and wrecking blow are 5 seconds.
Solar barrage 20.
Still I think these skills need to be looked at as they have lost a big part of their functionality in pvp.

FrancisCrawford

Wait.

Channeled heavy attacks only get the Empower buff on the last tick???

What fraction of overall heavy attack damage is that?

Sounds like my idea for a lightning staff/Oakensoul build might need a little reconsideration.

Billium813

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

I do remember some of those Empower iterations.

Do you have a thread or any official ESO tutorial on how to do LA weaving? Was LA weaving ever an intended gameplay mechanic? Anything that any dev has ever said LA weaving was getting a buff or nerf? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't believe LA weaving was ever intended nor was animation canceling. I've always considered is a technique players figured out and a limitation of the game engine. They wanted you to have that Elder Scrolls feel in game but never wanted LA weaving to be such an integral part of gameplay. Normal and Vet content I always thought was a good comprise. The casuals can do normal content and the Sweaty hardcore could do vet.

I could be wrong because now, why after all this time change it?

I know that over the years, "weaving light attacks" has been referenced MANY times in PTS posts and change reasons. Perhaps the best post I could find on the subject of combat and official weaving is here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517545/pts-patch-notes-testing-ideas-for-light-heavy-attacks-in-combat

Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.

There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

I believe the reasoning behind MANY changes in recent years have been centered on this specific statement. ZOS seems to understand ESOs fast paced combat is one of the biggest assets that ESO combat has over its competitors (which I strongly agree with and I would say is a reason why the duration changes recently seem so baffling). They want to close the skill gap between vets and new players, but keep promoting an avenue to "mastery" and "a satisfaction in the climb".

IMO, LA weaving seems to me to be something ZOS acknowledges, but doesn't want to remove from the game. It's been in the game since the beginning and while they have taken many steps over the years to mitigate it's importance and contribution to the skill gap between Vet <-> new players, they have not just eliminated it entirely. I would argue they have taken many steps to encourage it (I would argue that Aegis of Galenwe was a definitive statement that they were ok with buffing weaving in endgame content)! To me, it isn't about whether "weaving" was ever "intended" to exist, for ZOS it's now "how much can it be important, or required even, for end game content".

Animation canceling, imo, is maybe the same, but slightly different. I will also grant that they have made minor adjustments to several things over the years centered on animation canceling. They have actually made changes to skills to say "if another skill is queued, cull the animation". They know animation canceling exists in the game and they seem to not be terribly interested in removing it or promoting it. IMO, it was never "intended" and is an accident that they are loath to completely remove.

Billium813

Firstmep wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

For example:

• Wrecking Blow - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds How many fully charged HAs can you even do in 3 seconds? Increase the duration perhaps? Also, does this synergize with the Follow Up passive?
• Solar Flare - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Again, duration seems a bit weak. I do like this on Dark Flare, which also gives a Major Defile debuff. I can see a healer support applying this and then perhaps having a followup HA with a staff. But Solar Barrage would be more of a DPS skill. Solar Barrage does extend the duration to 8 seconds, but again, I don't think a DPS role using this is going to bother with fully charged HAs for the next 10 seconds. And if they do, they get maybe, 1 attack in the next 8 seconds? So that gets buffed by +80%? big whoop.
• Empowering Sweep - Gain Empower for the duration Granted, this may be a large window. The user may be able to get several fully charged HAs in during that time. But my DPS argument persists. I don't see a traditional DPS role using this ultimate, then using fully charged HAs for 6 - 16 seconds. Originally, the DPS would be using LA/MA weaving and the benefit is clear! With fully charged HAs, I don't see it.
• Empowering Chains - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Same duration issue. 3 seconds just doesn't seem long enough. It might as well say "Grants your next HA +80% damage". At least that would give you time to use the buff. Also, after you Chains into combat, this is your window to burst damage! Not spam fully charged HAs.
• Ambush - Also grants you Empower and Minor Berserk for 10 seconds Duration seems ok. Perhaps it's good for PvP, but I don't think a DPS role would use the HA that much or at all.

All of these have been lengthened. Solar flare, chains and wrecking blow are 5 seconds.
Solar barrage 20.
Still I think these skills need to be looked at as they have lost a big part of their functionality in pvp.

Oh, fair enough! I missed these in the v8.1.0 PTS Notes (chains is 10 seconds). The only thing I would add is that v8.1.0 was BEFORE they changed Empower to what it is currently set to: a fully charged HA ONLY buff. In v8.1.0, Empower still buffed LA & HA damage. Then changed Empower yet again in v8.1.3, several weeks later, and didn't change these skills any further (that we know of I suppose).

Necrotech_Master

Billium813 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

For example:

• Wrecking Blow - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds How many fully charged HAs can you even do in 3 seconds? Increase the duration perhaps? Also, does this synergize with the Follow Up passive?
• Solar Flare - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Again, duration seems a bit weak. I do like this on Dark Flare, which also gives a Major Defile debuff. I can see a healer support applying this and then perhaps having a followup HA with a staff. But Solar Barrage would be more of a DPS skill. Solar Barrage does extend the duration to 8 seconds, but again, I don't think a DPS role using this is going to bother with fully charged HAs for the next 10 seconds. And if they do, they get maybe, 1 attack in the next 8 seconds? So that gets buffed by +80%? big whoop.
• Empowering Sweep - Gain Empower for the duration Granted, this may be a large window. The user may be able to get several fully charged HAs in during that time. But my DPS argument persists. I don't see a traditional DPS role using this ultimate, then using fully charged HAs for 6 - 16 seconds. Originally, the DPS would be using LA/MA weaving and the benefit is clear! With fully charged HAs, I don't see it.
• Empowering Chains - Grants you Empower for 3 seconds Same duration issue. 3 seconds just doesn't seem long enough. It might as well say "Grants your next HA +80% damage". At least that would give you time to use the buff. Also, after you Chains into combat, this is your window to burst damage! Not spam fully charged HAs.
• Ambush - Also grants you Empower and Minor Berserk for 10 seconds Duration seems ok. Perhaps it's good for PvP, but I don't think a DPS role would use the HA that much or at all.

All of these have been lengthened. Solar flare, chains and wrecking blow are 5 seconds.
Solar barrage 20.
Still I think these skills need to be looked at as they have lost a big part of their functionality in pvp.

Oh, fair enough! I missed these in the v8.1.0 PTS Notes (chains is 10 seconds). The only thing I would add is that v8.1.0 was BEFORE they changed Empower to what it is currently set to: a fully charged HA ONLY buff. In v8.1.0, Empower still buffed LA & HA damage. Then changed Empower yet again in v8.1.3, several weeks later, and didn't change these skills any further (that we know of I suppose).

yeah i agree this didnt help (not to mention its being changed again for live to be only fully charged heavy attacks to remove "medium weaving" lol)

i dont necessarily think it was a good idea to entirely remove the bonus for light attacks, they should have left it at like maybe 15-20% (half of the current bonus, but makes the buff more useful than 0 bonus) lol

ToRelax

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

Do you have a thread from ESO that states Empower was for LA weaving?

Disclaimer: The storied history of Empower is long and cumbersome. There used to be Major/Minor Empower, it used to buff your next attack (not just LA/HA) specifically, and there were even stacks of Empower. It has been changed multiple times in all kinds of versions. When I said "original point", I will admit I was embellishing since the whole buff has been changing repeatedly since 2015 down to what we have now.

I couldn't find a specific post that stated "Empower is for weaving". The best I could find is an old PTS update from 2018 that specifically changed Empower to target LA (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/413283/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-0-5-summerset-amp-update-18). However, in my opinion, it feels pretty obvious if you just look at the updates they have done to it and what skills/sets they put it on that it's expected to be used with weaving. The current incarnation, on Live, buffs LA/HA damage... who would care about that other than 1) new players, 2) weaving ?

It's on Aegis of Galenwe, which is a trials set, so they must expect it to have end game potential. What would be the point of giving 11 allies Empower to buff their LA/HA damage if not for weaving? You expecting the DPS in your raid to just start spamming LAs & HAs when they get the buff? Unless you buff the damage +200%, no one is going to do that b/c it'd be a DPS loss. Yes, LA/HA could fit into a rotation as a regular action, but that's essentially "weaving", just slower and less potential for damage.

I do remember some of those Empower iterations.

Do you have a thread or any official ESO tutorial on how to do LA weaving? Was LA weaving ever an intended gameplay mechanic? Anything that any dev has ever said LA weaving was getting a buff or nerf? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't believe LA weaving was ever intended nor was animation canceling. I've always considered is a technique players figured out and a limitation of the game engine. They wanted you to have that Elder Scrolls feel in game but never wanted LA weaving to be such an integral part of gameplay. Normal and Vet content I always thought was a good comprise. The casuals can do normal content and the Sweaty hardcore could do vet.

I could be wrong because now, why after all this time change it?

Yeah, ZOS probably just unintentionally coded several distinct cooldowns for different types of actions into the game, without any intention to let players activate several distinct cooldowns for different types of actions all at once.

DrSlaughtr

ToRelax wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

Do you have a thread from ESO that states Empower was for LA weaving?

Disclaimer: The storied history of Empower is long and cumbersome. There used to be Major/Minor Empower, it used to buff your next attack (not just LA/HA) specifically, and there were even stacks of Empower. It has been changed multiple times in all kinds of versions. When I said "original point", I will admit I was embellishing since the whole buff has been changing repeatedly since 2015 down to what we have now.

I couldn't find a specific post that stated "Empower is for weaving". The best I could find is an old PTS update from 2018 that specifically changed Empower to target LA (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/413283/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-0-5-summerset-amp-update-18). However, in my opinion, it feels pretty obvious if you just look at the updates they have done to it and what skills/sets they put it on that it's expected to be used with weaving. The current incarnation, on Live, buffs LA/HA damage... who would care about that other than 1) new players, 2) weaving ?

It's on Aegis of Galenwe, which is a trials set, so they must expect it to have end game potential. What would be the point of giving 11 allies Empower to buff their LA/HA damage if not for weaving? You expecting the DPS in your raid to just start spamming LAs & HAs when they get the buff? Unless you buff the damage +200%, no one is going to do that b/c it'd be a DPS loss. Yes, LA/HA could fit into a rotation as a regular action, but that's essentially "weaving", just slower and less potential for damage.

I do remember some of those Empower iterations.

Do you have a thread or any official ESO tutorial on how to do LA weaving? Was LA weaving ever an intended gameplay mechanic? Anything that any dev has ever said LA weaving was getting a buff or nerf? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't believe LA weaving was ever intended nor was animation canceling. I've always considered is a technique players figured out and a limitation of the game engine. They wanted you to have that Elder Scrolls feel in game but never wanted LA weaving to be such an integral part of gameplay. Normal and Vet content I always thought was a good comprise. The casuals can do normal content and the Sweaty hardcore could do vet.

I could be wrong because now, why after all this time change it?

Yeah, ZOS probably just unintentionally coded several distinct cooldowns for different types of actions into the game, without any intention to let players activate several distinct cooldowns for different types of actions all at once.

I see people call it a hack all the time. No, they set LAs and skills on separate cooldowns. This was tested all through beta (I was there, Gandalf. 3000 years ago when the courage of men failed). Maybe they didnt expect it would become the primary mode of DPSing but that's speculation. It was built this way from the get go.

amgame308_ESO

Billium813 wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So yeah, an optimized trial group has no need for it. And that is fine because that is the point. But, players who want to run heavy attack spam builds will find this to be a huge buff.

Aegis of Galenwe is trial gear though. But now Empower isn't applicable to trials groups?

The original point WAS for Empower to be a trials buff for LA weaving. So they added Empower to all these skills and abilities. It was too strong or rather created too much of a skill gap for new players, so they abandoned it.
Now, Empower has morphed into a non-Trials buff mostly applicable to solo, sorc summoner, low DPS builds. But we are left with all these skills where Empower was meant to be used with! They aren't going to move Empower around to be on skills where it is applicable though

Do you have a thread from ESO that states Empower was for LA weaving?

Disclaimer: The storied history of Empower is long and cumbersome. There used to be Major/Minor Empower, it used to buff your next attack (not just LA/HA) specifically, and there were even stacks of Empower. It has been changed multiple times in all kinds of versions. When I said "original point", I will admit I was embellishing since the whole buff has been changing repeatedly since 2015 down to what we have now.

I couldn't find a specific post that stated "Empower is for weaving". The best I could find is an old PTS update from 2018 that specifically changed Empower to target LA (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/413283/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-0-5-summerset-amp-update-18). However, in my opinion, it feels pretty obvious if you just look at the updates they have done to it and what skills/sets they put it on that it's expected to be used with weaving. The current incarnation, on Live, buffs LA/HA damage... who would care about that other than 1) new players, 2) weaving ?

It's on Aegis of Galenwe, which is a trials set, so they must expect it to have end game potential. What would be the point of giving 11 allies Empower to buff their LA/HA damage if not for weaving? You expecting the DPS in your raid to just start spamming LAs & HAs when they get the buff? Unless you buff the damage +200%, no one is going to do that b/c it'd be a DPS loss. Yes, LA/HA could fit into a rotation as a regular action, but that's essentially "weaving", just slower and less potential for damage.

They actually referenced light attack weaving in those notes. I'll agree with you on Empower at this point. My whole argument was LA weaving was never intended. Now those sets are seemingly useless.

Now I really don't understand what they are doing. Why change it? To give low end players a chance at content? I thought that was what the normal modes were for. You still get to see it but you just can't get the best gear because you're not one of the best players. Oh well. I'll still play the game. Maybe just a different direction because of some new devs.

Stx

Marto wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Is Empower dead now with these changes? What was the point of nerfing this buff into oblivion?

The point of the empower change is to turn it into a buff that only some players want, in only some types of builds. Instead of a boring "You need 100% uptime of this buff on all builds, at all times, no matter what" buff.

ESO would be a much better game if situational buffs like this were the norm, rather than the exception.

Except that now that it is a 'support' buff, it makes no sense on skills like wrecking blow, and those skills just became much less valuable due to this change.

Billium813

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

Now I really don't understand what they are doing. Why change it? To give low end players a chance at content? I thought that was what the normal modes were for. You still get to see it but you just can't get the best gear because you're not one of the best players. Oh well. I'll still play the game. Maybe just a different direction because of some new devs.

I think that is precisely why they are changing it. If I had to guess, they are attempting to lower the ceiling on DPS requirements that may be preventing players from getting into endgame, trials content. Groups keeping Empower uptimes high will require DPS that can weave in their groups, which excludes new players that can't weave. Requiring Empower/LA weaving for vet content essentially wholesale condones the mechanic of weaving. I think that ZOS is OK with it existing, but they are trying to lower the bar on it being "required".

It was essentially created for LA/MA weaving, so it naturally fit into endgame raid content. But now ZOS doesn't want it to matter that much, so they tried scaling the damage back. The issue is that I think Empower, conceptually, is a Catch 22. Either you make it strong enough that endgame groups require it (where 90% of weaving is done), or you neuter it so much that no one bothers (move it to fully charged HAs that almost no one does). They seem to have gone with the latter. What they need to do, is go back to the drawing board on the buff.