MAGICKAS! WE HAVE A BIG PROBLEM !!! MAGICKAS !!!! (Healers too, Where is the balance?)

DrSlaughtr

Caribou77 wrote: »

PVP Magsorc here. My only class heal is matriarch and opponents consistently kill her quickly and easily, so half the time when I hit my heal button I get locked into the 2-3 second summoning matriarch animation and zero heal.

My stamina based opponents seem to love smacking me with dizzy swings and executioner when this happens.

I would love an effective class or even magicka based heal that would reliably heal me when I need it.

Whoever is calling the shots for the ZOS dev team lately DOES NOT PLAY OR UNDERSTAND PVP.

Class balance is out of the question these days.

Hold up.

You're talking magsorc. You have multiple class heals that are part of magsorc identity. Multiple pet heals. Okay you don't want to run pets? You also have Dark Deal which is also a big burst heal. You also have crit surge to get health back on crit strikes. Sorcs have a lot more self healing options than any other class.

Dark Deal also gives you stamina! So you can also fuel Resolving Vigor.

To the rest of the topic, comparing Resolving Vigor, which is 1. A completely solo heal and 2. the only legit stamina heal in the game, to Rapid Regeneration is not a fair comparison. RR has never been good. It's basically Breath of Life as a hot with a worse tooltip.

Every class has access to a mag heal that is better than RR. That's why it isn't used much, where as Radiant Regen is used all over the place in PVP and PVE because there is no other hot that you can easily stack on everyone in group.

As others have said, whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor. Stamina players have been using mag skills for years, long before hybrid was a thing, because we had no choice. It's okay to use a stam skill on a mag toon. It doesn't mean you aren't running a mag toon. It just means you're taking advantage of your second resource.

BalticBlues

ninjagank wrote: »

Stamina players have been using mag skills for years

Because they can, as they do not need Magicka for other things.
Stamina however is ALWAYS needed for mobility and breaking free.

ninjagank wrote: »

whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor.

"NinjaGang" probably is the name of your game. You may have enough Stamina for Vigor playing in the darkness as NB. But you do not have enough Stamina for Vigor if you have to play in the open with a Mag Sorc. Because the moment you do not have enough Stamina to break free, you are dead. So if you decide to self heal using Vigor, you soon are dead anyway.

Better solution: Give people a Magicka morph of Vigor.
All kinds of Magicka skills got a Stamina morph over the last years.
MagSorcs also would like to have a reliable self heal without Pets or Resto.

IAmIcehouse

BalticBlues wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Stamina players have been using mag skills for years

Because they can, as they do not need Magicka for other things.
Stamina however is ALWAYS needed for mobility and breaking free.

ninjagank wrote: »

whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor.

"NinjaGang" probably is the name of your game. You may have enough Stamina for Vigor playing in the darkness as NB. But you do not have enough Stamina for Vigor if you have to play in the open with a Mag Sorc. Because the moment you do not have enough Stamina to break free, you are dead. So if you decide to self heal using Vigor, you soon are dead anyway.

Better solution: Give people a Magicka morph of Vigor.
All kinds of Magicka skills got a Stamina morph over the last years.
MagSorcs also would like to have a reliable self heal without Pets or Resto.

A magical morph of vigor? Mate, almost every class heal in the game is magicka based. Even quasi-heals.

Stam heals:
Vigor, Stam shrooms, rally (quasi), dark deal.

Mag heals:
Arctic blast, mag shrooms, vines, natures grasp, living dark, honor the dead, purify, flappy bird, clannfear of shame, dark exchange, power surge, wraith, resistant flesh, renewing undeath, cauterize, coag, burning embers (quasi), cinder, dark cloak, soul swallow (quasi ), healthy offering, refreshing path,

When you’re stam, you allocate something into mag recovery for both class skills and heals. If you’re a mag toon, you can allocate stam recovery. I play 1600-2400 stam recov(with pot) on my mag toons (jewels of misrule/bear haunch and mostly medium armor) instead of running atronauch. If you want to sustain vigor, build sustain for it.

DrSlaughtr

BalticBlues wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Stamina players have been using mag skills for years

Because they can, as they do not need Magicka for other things.
Stamina however is ALWAYS needed for mobility and breaking free.

ninjagank wrote: »

whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor.

"NinjaGang" probably is the name of your game. You may have enough Stamina for Vigor playing in the darkness as NB. But you do not have enough Stamina for Vigor if you have to play in the open with a Mag Sorc. Because the moment you do not have enough Stamina to break free, you are dead. So if you decide to self heal using Vigor, you soon are dead anyway.

Better solution: Give people a Magicka morph of Vigor.
All kinds of Magicka skills got a Stamina morph over the last years.
MagSorcs also would like to have a reliable self heal without Pets or Resto.

With cc cooldown how often are you breaking free? You can also reduce the cost of breaking free, even getting a completely free one with CP. Same with roll dodging.

A Stam sorc has under 30k stamina to dodge, break free, sprint AND attack. Even if you do nothing to pad your Stam pool you have enough to cover a vigor hit. No you can't spam it but you shouldn't because it's a hot.

As @IAmIcehouse said there are a LOT of mag heals in this game. Sorc has several. Vigor is the only non class option for stamina.

IZZEFlameLash

BalticBlues wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Stamina players have been using mag skills for years

Because they can, as they do not need Magicka for other things.
Stamina however is ALWAYS needed for mobility and breaking free.

ninjagank wrote: »

whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor.

"NinjaGang" probably is the name of your game. You may have enough Stamina for Vigor playing in the darkness as NB. But you do not have enough Stamina for Vigor if you have to play in the open with a Mag Sorc. Because the moment you do not have enough Stamina to break free, you are dead. So if you decide to self heal using Vigor, you soon are dead anyway.

Better solution: Give people a Magicka morph of Vigor.
All kinds of Magicka skills got a Stamina morph over the last years.
MagSorcs also would like to have a reliable self heal without Pets or Resto.

Tbh, I'd even be happy if Resto heal was a guaranteed for the caster with clear multi/solo heal divide even.

BalticBlues

BalticBlues wrote: »

Give people a Magicka morph of Vigor.
All kinds of Magicka skills got a Stamina morph over the last years.
MagSorcs also would like to have a reliable self heal without Pets or Resto.

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

A magical morph of vigor? Mate, almost every class heal in the game is magicka based.

Sure, but Sorcs do NOT have a reliable Magicka class heal except for Pets.
This is terrible for PvP, because Sorc pets are easy to kill.
To be viable again, Sorcs also need either a non-pet healing skill or a magicka morph of Vigor.

MagNBs were in a very similar position and recently received a great version of "Healty Offering".
MagsSorcs also need such treatment. Removing the cast time of "Dark Deal" would be enough.

Kory

MagDK and Magplar certainly do not struggle with healing even slightly. Magicka wardens are unique in that they almost specialize in healing
Thinking about it almost all of the magicka builds healing power come from class abilities alone, which is great for magicka based builds. lol

DrSlaughtr

BalticBlues wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Give people a Magicka morph of Vigor.
All kinds of Magicka skills got a Stamina morph over the last years.
MagSorcs also would like to have a reliable self heal without Pets or Resto.

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

A magical morph of vigor? Mate, almost every class heal in the game is magicka based.

Sure, but Sorcs do NOT have a reliable Magicka class heal except for Pets.
This is terrible for PvP, because Sorc pets are easy to kill.
To be viable again, Sorcs also need either a non-pet healing skill or a magicka morph of Vigor.

MagNBs were in a very similar position and recently received a great version of "Healty Offering".
MagsSorcs also need such treatment. Removing the cast time of "Dark Deal" would be enough.

I know Dark Deal has a 1 second cast time but it's a massive heal and if you are smart about it you can very much make it work even in the heat of combat. Not to mention you get stamina back, so you could pair easily it with Vigor. No need for Matriarch.

Turtle_Bot

ninjagank wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

PVP Magsorc here. My only class heal is matriarch and opponents consistently kill her quickly and easily, so half the time when I hit my heal button I get locked into the 2-3 second summoning matriarch animation and zero heal.

My stamina based opponents seem to love smacking me with dizzy swings and executioner when this happens.

I would love an effective class or even magicka based heal that would reliably heal me when I need it.

Whoever is calling the shots for the ZOS dev team lately DOES NOT PLAY OR UNDERSTAND PVP.

Class balance is out of the question these days.

Hold up.

You're talking magsorc. You have multiple class heals that are part of magsorc identity. Multiple pet heals. Okay you don't want to run pets? You also have Dark Deal which is also a big burst heal. You also have crit surge to get health back on crit strikes. Sorcs have a lot more self healing options than any other class.

Dark Deal also gives you stamina! So you can also fuel Resolving Vigor.

To the rest of the topic, comparing Resolving Vigor, which is 1. A completely solo heal and 2. the only legit stamina heal in the game, to Rapid Regeneration is not a fair comparison. RR has never been good. It's basically Breath of Life as a hot with a worse tooltip.

Every class has access to a mag heal that is better than RR. That's why it isn't used much, where as Radiant Regen is used all over the place in PVP and PVE because there is no other hot that you can easily stack on everyone in group.

As others have said, whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor. Stamina players have been using mag skills for years, long before hybrid was a thing, because we had no choice. It's okay to use a stam skill on a mag toon. It doesn't mean you aren't running a mag toon. It just means you're taking advantage of your second resource.

Lets clarify the dark deal/dark conversion heal here for a second.
It is a delayed flat heal that is easily interrupted and severely messes with bar swapping on rotations. It used to be worth it back in 2018/2019 because it had similar tooltips to other class burst heals back then as well as good resource sustain, nowadays the tool tip is barely half that of any other class self heal, still doesn't scale in any way and the resource sustain has been getting nerfed more and more, yet it has had no compensation for this. If they want to keep it on a delay, give it an 18k+ tool tip (or make it unaffected by battle spirit) and re-buff its sustain, otherwise, just make it an instant cast.
It is no-where near as op as it used to be, especially with all the bonuses every class gets on their self heals now.

-DK's get essentially a full heal from their class self heal, even through battle spirit.
-Wardens get an on demand aoe stun + dot that inflicts chilled status.
-Plars get to heal an ally at the same time or a cost refund to the ability.
-cros get a nice chunk of additional resistances.
-nbs get mending

Yet those class self heal skills don't have any cast time on them at all and all scale off of weapon/spell damage allowing for some stupid tooltips. At the BARE MINIMUM, dark deal/dark conversion should be made into instant cast abilities and the heal made to scale off damage to match their power level to every other classes self heal power levels.

Next, lets look at Heal over time abilities.

-nbs, refreshing path (major expedition and heals allies as well) and dark cloak.
-plars have rune (massive sustain + armor boost for an essentially free skill) and cleansing ritual (purge that can also heal allies)
-wardens have trellis (burst heal at the end and can heal allies) and the other morph of arctic
-dks have ash cloud (heals allies as well and a 70% snare on enemies), cauterise (gives major prophecy + savagery)
-cros have mender (spirit still gives unique 10% mitigation) and coil (sustain here as well)
-sorcs have crit surge (requires you to deal critical damage on a class with only 1 melee range "sticky dot" that ticks once every 2 seconds and follows you, doesn't stick to the enemy, for a flat heal that is lower than other class HoT values).

There is no comparison what so ever for sorc self heals compared to other classes.

While we are here, aoe heals

-nbs, refreshing path (gives major expedition), the other morph of soul tether that heals for 14k+ instantly as well as up to 45k heal over 4 seconds + major vitality to all allies it heals and has a synergy that allies can activate to deal damage and heal even more or there's the shadow ultimate which snares enemies by 70%, provides major protection to allies, and has a synergy that gives invisibility + a unique 70% move speed buff and a 40k+ heal over 4 seconds.
-plar, burst heal, cleansing ritual synergy (also purges), rune (also sustain), the aoe heal that gives expedition and a healing ultimate that gives them cc immunity as well as a 10k+ HPS in a huge aoe as well as major protection.
wardens, cheapest heal ultimate in the game at 90 base cost with a 10k hps that lingers or the other morph gives ultimate back, spores, budding seeds which is a delayed burst heal that gives a synergy for a second heal or applies defile on enemies in its aoe, grasp which is a gap closer to allies or also heals yourself,
-dks, ash cloud which has a 70% snare on enemies, magma shell the synergy essentially doubles an allies health with its 100% max health shield cauterise which is cheap to spam considering its an aoe heal
-cros, coil (sustain), life amid death (purge + HoT + burst heal) and an ultimate that resurrects dead allies.
-sorc, bird (provides a small dot, dies super quick due to low health and has limited targets it can heal per cast), negate (heal over time that is smaller than most regular HoTs, it prevents magicka abilities from being cast, but does nothing to stop stamina abilities, also useless in pve because bosses are immune to cc and have their own abilities that don't cost magicka or stamina to use)

So once again sorcs are far behind most other classes for pvp group healing as well with only dks being worse group healers, but they bring so much more to a group through other means, especially for damage.

Lastly, lets change it so that stamina characters use magicka instead of stamina to dodge roll/break free/sprint/stealth. Surely they can sustain it super easy while also casting heals on top right?

DrSlaughtr

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

PVP Magsorc here. My only class heal is matriarch and opponents consistently kill her quickly and easily, so half the time when I hit my heal button I get locked into the 2-3 second summoning matriarch animation and zero heal.

My stamina based opponents seem to love smacking me with dizzy swings and executioner when this happens.

I would love an effective class or even magicka based heal that would reliably heal me when I need it.

Whoever is calling the shots for the ZOS dev team lately DOES NOT PLAY OR UNDERSTAND PVP.

Class balance is out of the question these days.

Hold up.

You're talking magsorc. You have multiple class heals that are part of magsorc identity. Multiple pet heals. Okay you don't want to run pets? You also have Dark Deal which is also a big burst heal. You also have crit surge to get health back on crit strikes. Sorcs have a lot more self healing options than any other class.

Dark Deal also gives you stamina! So you can also fuel Resolving Vigor.

To the rest of the topic, comparing Resolving Vigor, which is 1. A completely solo heal and 2. the only legit stamina heal in the game, to Rapid Regeneration is not a fair comparison. RR has never been good. It's basically Breath of Life as a hot with a worse tooltip.

Every class has access to a mag heal that is better than RR. That's why it isn't used much, where as Radiant Regen is used all over the place in PVP and PVE because there is no other hot that you can easily stack on everyone in group.

As others have said, whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor. Stamina players have been using mag skills for years, long before hybrid was a thing, because we had no choice. It's okay to use a stam skill on a mag toon. It doesn't mean you aren't running a mag toon. It just means you're taking advantage of your second resource.

Lets clarify the dark deal/dark conversion heal here for a second.
It is a delayed flat heal that is easily interrupted and severely messes with bar swapping on rotations. It used to be worth it back in 2018/2019 because it had similar tooltips to other class burst heals back then as well as good resource sustain, nowadays the tool tip is barely half that of any other class self heal, still doesn't scale in any way and the resource sustain has been getting nerfed more and more, yet it has had no compensation for this. If they want to keep it on a delay, give it an 18k+ tool tip (or make it unaffected by battle spirit) and re-buff its sustain, otherwise, just make it an instant cast.
It is no-where near as op as it used to be, especially with all the bonuses every class gets on their self heals now.

-DK's get essentially a full heal from their class self heal, even through battle spirit.
-Wardens get an on demand aoe stun + dot that inflicts chilled status.
-Plars get to heal an ally at the same time or a cost refund to the ability.
-cros get a nice chunk of additional resistances.
-nbs get mending

Yet those class self heal skills don't have any cast time on them at all and all scale off of weapon/spell damage allowing for some stupid tooltips. At the BARE MINIMUM, dark deal/dark conversion should be made into instant cast abilities and the heal made to scale off damage to match their power level to every other classes self heal power levels.

Next, lets look at Heal over time abilities.

-nbs, refreshing path (major expedition and heals allies as well) and dark cloak.
-plars have rune (massive sustain + armor boost for an essentially free skill) and cleansing ritual (purge that can also heal allies)
-wardens have trellis (burst heal at the end and can heal allies) and the other morph of arctic
-dks have ash cloud (heals allies as well and a 70% snare on enemies), cauterise (gives major prophecy + savagery)
-cros have mender (spirit still gives unique 10% mitigation) and coil (sustain here as well)
-sorcs have crit surge (requires you to deal critical damage on a class with only 1 melee range "sticky dot" that ticks once every 2 seconds and follows you, doesn't stick to the enemy, for a flat heal that is lower than other class HoT values).

There is no comparison what so ever for sorc self heals compared to other classes.

While we are here, aoe heals

-nbs, refreshing path (gives major expedition), the other morph of soul tether that heals for 14k+ instantly as well as up to 45k heal over 4 seconds + major vitality to all allies it heals and has a synergy that allies can activate to deal damage and heal even more or there's the shadow ultimate which snares enemies by 70%, provides major protection to allies, and has a synergy that gives invisibility + a unique 70% move speed buff and a 40k+ heal over 4 seconds.
-plar, burst heal, cleansing ritual synergy (also purges), rune (also sustain), the aoe heal that gives expedition and a healing ultimate that gives them cc immunity as well as a 10k+ HPS in a huge aoe as well as major protection.
wardens, cheapest heal ultimate in the game at 90 base cost with a 10k hps that lingers or the other morph gives ultimate back, spores, budding seeds which is a delayed burst heal that gives a synergy for a second heal or applies defile on enemies in its aoe, grasp which is a gap closer to allies or also heals yourself,
-dks, ash cloud which has a 70% snare on enemies, magma shell the synergy essentially doubles an allies health with its 100% max health shield cauterise which is cheap to spam considering its an aoe heal
-cros, coil (sustain), life amid death (purge + HoT + burst heal) and an ultimate that resurrects dead allies.
-sorc, bird (provides a small dot, dies super quick due to low health and has limited targets it can heal per cast), negate (heal over time that is smaller than most regular HoTs, it prevents magicka abilities from being cast, but does nothing to stop stamina abilities, also useless in pve because bosses are immune to cc and have their own abilities that don't cost magicka or stamina to use)

So once again sorcs are far behind most other classes for pvp group healing as well with only dks being worse group healers, but they bring so much more to a group through other means, especially for damage.

Lastly, lets change it so that stamina characters use magicka instead of stamina to dodge roll/break free/sprint/stealth. Surely they can sustain it super easy while also casting heals on top right?

Let me clarify. I'm talking from a PVP perspective, in case anyone is wondering.

Yes I realize Dark Deal has a cast time. The beauty of dark deal though is two. One it acts like a better version of deep thoughts, which many people have mastered in pvp. While no you won't be able to use DD if you're in the open and bring sweated down, you can just it with streak to find something to LOS around.

You can also just DD to fuel vigor, giving you a powerful two punch combo.

The only reason why I brought to DD is that it seems people pretend like it doesn't exist. It does. You just have to commit to learning how to use it in battle.

I also know brought it up because I see people hating on pets and complaining that magsorc has no class identity. It does. The pets are the class identity. But if you don't want to run them because they get killed, then a DD/Vigor combo works great.

Just my two cents.

BalticBlues

ninjagank wrote: »

[Yes I realize Dark Deal has a cast time [...]
You can also just DD to fuel vigor, giving you a powerful two punch combo.

You suggest one magicka heal with a cast time to finally get one good stamina heal.
You suggest to sacrifice one magicka damage slot to finally get a good stamina heal.
You suggest to play like a crippled MagSorc instead of just playing a good StamSorc.

MagSorc is dead in PvP with U35.
Range damage nerfed, mines nerfed, still no reliable self healing skill.
You can either switch to StamSorc or you can play another class or you can take a break from ESO.

DrSlaughtr

BalticBlues wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

[Yes I realize Dark Deal has a cast time [...]
You can also just DD to fuel vigor, giving you a powerful two punch combo.

You suggest one magicka heal with a cast time to finally get one good stamina heal.
You suggest to sacrifice one magicka damage slot to finally get a good stamina heal.
You suggest to play like a crippled MagSorc instead of just playing a good StamSorc.

MagSorc is dead in PvP with U35.
Range damage nerfed, mines nerfed, still no reliable self healing skill.
You can either switch to StamSorc or you can play another class or you can take a break from ESO.

No I suggest that you adapt to what you have if you want to play magsorc. You don't want to run pets. I have you a viable alternative.

If you learn to play with trifood you can run upwards of 18 to 20k stamina. That alone is enough to cover defenses and vigor. Running slippery is a plus.

Add DD to give you a burst of health and stamina behind a rock or pillar and you're good. Is it as easy as matriarch? No, but it's not hard mode either. It's just about getting the rotation down. I know this because that's how I run my sorc.

People want to run one bar matriarch just like people want to run one bar near on warden but neither would like losing most of the effects to make it acceptable as a one bar skill.

Sorcs and NBs both require hard choices for bar set ups. Other classes have a little more luxury in this area. It's unfortunate but not much we can do about it but figure out how to make it work.

I'm not trying to downplay the sacrifice because I know it too well. I'm just offering a suggestion on now to run non pet.

Also people need to stop now wanting to run a skill because it uses the secondary resource, as if hitting a Stam skill makes your magsorc no longer a magsorc.

BalticBlues

ninjagank wrote: »

Also people need to stop now wanting to run a skill because it uses the secondary resource, as if hitting a Stam skill makes your magsorc no longer a magsorc.

Sorry, but you do not understand. As a MagSorc, even if you go glass cannon you cannot kill a good DK anymore these days. They will outheal you, no matter what you put on them. By sacrificing a damage slot to get Vigor as an extra heal, you may last a bit longer but your damage is even lower. So you will die anyway, not matter what you do.

Of course I can play DK in high mmr BGs, but it's boring as hell to play the same class all of the time. I want MagSorc viable again, my once favorite PvP class. And instead of repeating, I link to the summary of how ZOS KILLED THE MAGSORC:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7696917/#Comment_7696917

DrSlaughtr

BalticBlues wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Also people need to stop now wanting to run a skill because it uses the secondary resource, as if hitting a Stam skill makes your magsorc no longer a magsorc.

Sorry, but you do not understand. As a MagSorc, even if you go glass cannon you cannot kill a good DK anymore these days. They will outheal you, no matter what you put on them. By sacrificing a damage slot to get Vigor as an extra heal, you may last a bit longer but your damage is even lower. So you will die anyway, not matter what you do.

Of course I can play DK in high mmr BGs, but it's boring as hell to play the same class all of the time. I want MagSorc viable again, my once favorite PvP class. And instead of repeating, I link to the summary of how ZOS KILLED THE MAGSORC:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7696917/#Comment_7696917

Every single class has to decide between healing, armor, and damage. Sorc is no different. I feel you on the DKs. But more damage skills won't necessarily make a difference. Stacking dots won't help you 1v1 a DK, especially with this update. Unfortunately they are the class that will usually require at least 2 people to kill, if the player is competent.

But if you are going to say "I don't want to run a skill to help me live" then I don't know how to help you. You don't want to run pets. You don't want to run Dark Deal. You don't want to run Vigor. What do you want? There is no magic button and making every class like DK isn't the answer. There will always be classes and specs that are better than others. Sorcs have had times on top in the past. I can remember 50% of battlefields being 2 to 3 pet builds.

Turtle_Bot

ninjagank wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

PVP Magsorc here. My only class heal is matriarch and opponents consistently kill her quickly and easily, so half the time when I hit my heal button I get locked into the 2-3 second summoning matriarch animation and zero heal.

My stamina based opponents seem to love smacking me with dizzy swings and executioner when this happens.

I would love an effective class or even magicka based heal that would reliably heal me when I need it.

Whoever is calling the shots for the ZOS dev team lately DOES NOT PLAY OR UNDERSTAND PVP.

Class balance is out of the question these days.

Hold up.

You're talking magsorc. You have multiple class heals that are part of magsorc identity. Multiple pet heals. Okay you don't want to run pets? You also have Dark Deal which is also a big burst heal. You also have crit surge to get health back on crit strikes. Sorcs have a lot more self healing options than any other class.

Dark Deal also gives you stamina! So you can also fuel Resolving Vigor.

To the rest of the topic, comparing Resolving Vigor, which is 1. A completely solo heal and 2. the only legit stamina heal in the game, to Rapid Regeneration is not a fair comparison. RR has never been good. It's basically Breath of Life as a hot with a worse tooltip.

Every class has access to a mag heal that is better than RR. That's why it isn't used much, where as Radiant Regen is used all over the place in PVP and PVE because there is no other hot that you can easily stack on everyone in group.

As others have said, whether you're healing in PVE or PVP, you have stamina, even on mag, and one of the things you could use it on is vigor. Stamina players have been using mag skills for years, long before hybrid was a thing, because we had no choice. It's okay to use a stam skill on a mag toon. It doesn't mean you aren't running a mag toon. It just means you're taking advantage of your second resource.

Lets clarify the dark deal/dark conversion heal here for a second.
It is a delayed flat heal that is easily interrupted and severely messes with bar swapping on rotations. It used to be worth it back in 2018/2019 because it had similar tooltips to other class burst heals back then as well as good resource sustain, nowadays the tool tip is barely half that of any other class self heal, still doesn't scale in any way and the resource sustain has been getting nerfed more and more, yet it has had no compensation for this. If they want to keep it on a delay, give it an 18k+ tool tip (or make it unaffected by battle spirit) and re-buff its sustain, otherwise, just make it an instant cast.
It is no-where near as op as it used to be, especially with all the bonuses every class gets on their self heals now.

-DK's get essentially a full heal from their class self heal, even through battle spirit.
-Wardens get an on demand aoe stun + dot that inflicts chilled status.
-Plars get to heal an ally at the same time or a cost refund to the ability.
-cros get a nice chunk of additional resistances.
-nbs get mending

Yet those class self heal skills don't have any cast time on them at all and all scale off of weapon/spell damage allowing for some stupid tooltips. At the BARE MINIMUM, dark deal/dark conversion should be made into instant cast abilities and the heal made to scale off damage to match their power level to every other classes self heal power levels.

Next, lets look at Heal over time abilities.

-nbs, refreshing path (major expedition and heals allies as well) and dark cloak.
-plars have rune (massive sustain + armor boost for an essentially free skill) and cleansing ritual (purge that can also heal allies)
-wardens have trellis (burst heal at the end and can heal allies) and the other morph of arctic
-dks have ash cloud (heals allies as well and a 70% snare on enemies), cauterise (gives major prophecy + savagery)
-cros have mender (spirit still gives unique 10% mitigation) and coil (sustain here as well)
-sorcs have crit surge (requires you to deal critical damage on a class with only 1 melee range "sticky dot" that ticks once every 2 seconds and follows you, doesn't stick to the enemy, for a flat heal that is lower than other class HoT values).

There is no comparison what so ever for sorc self heals compared to other classes.

While we are here, aoe heals

-nbs, refreshing path (gives major expedition), the other morph of soul tether that heals for 14k+ instantly as well as up to 45k heal over 4 seconds + major vitality to all allies it heals and has a synergy that allies can activate to deal damage and heal even more or there's the shadow ultimate which snares enemies by 70%, provides major protection to allies, and has a synergy that gives invisibility + a unique 70% move speed buff and a 40k+ heal over 4 seconds.
-plar, burst heal, cleansing ritual synergy (also purges), rune (also sustain), the aoe heal that gives expedition and a healing ultimate that gives them cc immunity as well as a 10k+ HPS in a huge aoe as well as major protection.
wardens, cheapest heal ultimate in the game at 90 base cost with a 10k hps that lingers or the other morph gives ultimate back, spores, budding seeds which is a delayed burst heal that gives a synergy for a second heal or applies defile on enemies in its aoe, grasp which is a gap closer to allies or also heals yourself,
-dks, ash cloud which has a 70% snare on enemies, magma shell the synergy essentially doubles an allies health with its 100% max health shield cauterise which is cheap to spam considering its an aoe heal
-cros, coil (sustain), life amid death (purge + HoT + burst heal) and an ultimate that resurrects dead allies.
-sorc, bird (provides a small dot, dies super quick due to low health and has limited targets it can heal per cast), negate (heal over time that is smaller than most regular HoTs, it prevents magicka abilities from being cast, but does nothing to stop stamina abilities, also useless in pve because bosses are immune to cc and have their own abilities that don't cost magicka or stamina to use)

So once again sorcs are far behind most other classes for pvp group healing as well with only dks being worse group healers, but they bring so much more to a group through other means, especially for damage.

Lastly, lets change it so that stamina characters use magicka instead of stamina to dodge roll/break free/sprint/stealth. Surely they can sustain it super easy while also casting heals on top right?

Let me clarify. I'm talking from a PVP perspective, in case anyone is wondering.

Yes I realize Dark Deal has a cast time. The beauty of dark deal though is two. One it acts like a better version of deep thoughts, which many people have mastered in pvp. While no you won't be able to use DD if you're in the open and bring sweated down, you can just it with streak to find something to LOS around.

You can also just DD to fuel vigor, giving you a powerful two punch combo.

The only reason why I brought to DD is that it seems people pretend like it doesn't exist. It does. You just have to commit to learning how to use it in battle.

I also know brought it up because I see people hating on pets and complaining that magsorc has no class identity. It does. The pets are the class identity. But if you don't want to run them because they get killed, then a DD/Vigor combo works great.

Just my two cents.

And I was talking from a PvP perspective as well. It's why I listed all the comparable abilities that other classes have access to including all the additional effects those abilities get without the delayed cast time penalty to those skills and why I specifically mentioned that it should ignore the battle spirit healing reduction so that once battle spirit is taken into account it would at least match the healing value of other class burst heals.

There are multiple differences between dark deal and deep thoughts. Deep thoughts being a heal over time with its first tick proccing on activation meaning you at least get something for just activating it, meanwhile dark deal is entirely delayed and if it is interrupted, you get nothing at all from it. Secondly, the psijic passives, they grant a lot of bonuses while casting/channeling a psijic ability including a unique mitigation passive that reduces damage taken while channeling a psijic ability, which reduces the punishment for the ability getting interrupted.

That was one of my inferred points, all other classes can use their burst heals out in the open while getting pressured to no end and aren't punished for doing so, they also aren't reliant on a bugged mechanic (gap closer, which we all know doesn't work at all in lag, let alone all the bugs associated with gap closers when they do work due to prevalent player location desync bugs) to get behind LoS to be able to heal up.

Using DD to go into/sustain vigor is not good though, if we are going to do that, why not just run the pet bird instead for a bigger heal that doesn't detract from being able to spam dodge roll/block/break free and takes up the same bar space. no defensive skill should require the use of another skill to be viable, that is just bad design.

Lastly, pets are only the class identity of sorc now because zos has forced that class identity onto the player base by gutting/removing all other playstyles the class had, even meme playstyles that barely functioned (e.g. mine builds) have been removed from the class. Sorcs used to be playable in multiple ways, but successive nerfs by the zos devs over the years have reduced them to nothing more than zoo keepers for pve and bowsorc or dswing for pvp.

Turtle_Bot

ninjagank wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Also people need to stop now wanting to run a skill because it uses the secondary resource, as if hitting a Stam skill makes your magsorc no longer a magsorc.

Sorry, but you do not understand. As a MagSorc, even if you go glass cannon you cannot kill a good DK anymore these days. They will outheal you, no matter what you put on them. By sacrificing a damage slot to get Vigor as an extra heal, you may last a bit longer but your damage is even lower. So you will die anyway, not matter what you do.

Of course I can play DK in high mmr BGs, but it's boring as hell to play the same class all of the time. I want MagSorc viable again, my once favorite PvP class. And instead of repeating, I link to the summary of how ZOS KILLED THE MAGSORC:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7696917/#Comment_7696917

Every single class has to decide between healing, armor, and damage. Sorc is no different. I feel you on the DKs. But more damage skills won't necessarily make a difference. Stacking dots won't help you 1v1 a DK, especially with this update. Unfortunately they are the class that will usually require at least 2 people to kill, if the player is competent.

But if you are going to say "I don't want to run a skill to help me live" then I don't know how to help you. You don't want to run pets. You don't want to run Dark Deal. You don't want to run Vigor. What do you want? There is no magic button and making every class like DK isn't the answer. There will always be classes and specs that are better than others. Sorcs have had times on top in the past. I can remember 50% of battlefields being 2 to 3 pet builds.

This is the issue though, no other class has to decide between these factors.
All other classes have access to a reliable instant cast class heal that can be ran with any weapon type/armor type that also scales with raw damage, so they can easily build for pure damage and naturally have a lot more healing as well. As for armor, it's barely a factor for mitigation now, most mitigation comes from CP and buffs such as protection, evasion, etc or through blocking or avoiding damage via dodge roll which is supplemented by the very strong scaling heals that the other classes have access to.

It's not about creating another DK, it's about bringing the class up to be on the same level playing field as every other class in the game.

DrSlaughtr

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

All other classes have access to a reliable instant cast class heal that can be ran with any weapon type/armor type that also scales with raw damage, so they can easily build for pure damage and naturally have a lot more healing as well.

This just isn't true. You just don't want to just what's available. That's an important distinction.

I'd trade you healthy offering for dark deal in an instant.

Turtle_Bot

ninjagank wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

All other classes have access to a reliable instant cast class heal that can be ran with any weapon type/armor type that also scales with raw damage, so they can easily build for pure damage and naturally have a lot more healing as well.

This just isn't true. You just don't want to just what's available. That's an important distinction.

I'd trade you healthy offering for dark deal in an instant.

I am using what is available though? I just want it to be improved to match the power level that the other classes already have access to on their heals.

Dark Deal would be super strong on a nb since they have cloak and shade to LoS right out from under enemies noses giving them plenty of time to use dark deal, so of course it would be amazing on a nb. Too bad that sorcs don't have that same reliable LoS on demand capability unless its against noobs who never pay any attention to where an enemy is.

So yes, I would gladly make that trade as well. Give me Healthy Offering, a reliable burst heal that scales off weapon/spell damage, cannot be interrupted, only takes up 1 bar slot and cannot be killed sounds amazing for sorcs and what a lot of sorcs have been asking for, for years now.

DrSlaughtr

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

All other classes have access to a reliable instant cast class heal that can be ran with any weapon type/armor type that also scales with raw damage, so they can easily build for pure damage and naturally have a lot more healing as well.

This just isn't true. You just don't want to just what's available. That's an important distinction.

I'd trade you healthy offering for dark deal in an instant.

I am using what is available though? I just want it to be improved to match the power level that the other classes already have access to on their heals.

Dark Deal would be super strong on a nb since they have cloak and shade to LoS right out from under enemies noses giving them plenty of time to use dark deal, so of course it would be amazing on a nb. Too bad that sorcs don't have that same reliable LoS on demand capability unless its against noobs who never pay any attention to where an enemy is.

So yes, I would gladly make that trade as well. Give me Healthy Offering, a reliable burst heal that scales off weapon/spell damage, cannot be interrupted, only takes up 1 bar slot and cannot be killed sounds amazing for sorcs and what a lot of sorcs have been asking for, for years now.

My friend, I wouldn't be able to hit DD in cloak without getting revealed and using "shade" wouldn't make it any easier in most situations. Sorc has the best escape skill in the game. There is absolutely nothing stopping a sorc from using LOS to hit Dark Deal and you can very easily use CC immunity + immovable pots to make DD work. Sorcs who didn't want to run pets have been doing it for years.

Turtle_Bot

ninjagank wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

All other classes have access to a reliable instant cast class heal that can be ran with any weapon type/armor type that also scales with raw damage, so they can easily build for pure damage and naturally have a lot more healing as well.

This just isn't true. You just don't want to just what's available. That's an important distinction.

I'd trade you healthy offering for dark deal in an instant.

I am using what is available though? I just want it to be improved to match the power level that the other classes already have access to on their heals.

Dark Deal would be super strong on a nb since they have cloak and shade to LoS right out from under enemies noses giving them plenty of time to use dark deal, so of course it would be amazing on a nb. Too bad that sorcs don't have that same reliable LoS on demand capability unless its against noobs who never pay any attention to where an enemy is.

So yes, I would gladly make that trade as well. Give me Healthy Offering, a reliable burst heal that scales off weapon/spell damage, cannot be interrupted, only takes up 1 bar slot and cannot be killed sounds amazing for sorcs and what a lot of sorcs have been asking for, for years now.

My friend, I wouldn't be able to hit DD in cloak without getting revealed and using "shade" wouldn't make it any easier in most situations. Sorc has the best escape skill in the game. There is absolutely nothing stopping a sorc from using LOS to hit Dark Deal and you can very easily use CC immunity + immovable pots to make DD work. Sorcs who didn't want to run pets have been doing it for years.

My point about cloak and shade was that they are ways to instantly disengage with LoS from enemy players (shade in particular which can be pre-placed behind LoS or even on top of walls/towers/other hard to reach places or by simply drawing the enemies away from the shade then teleporting back to it to instantly create that gap that gap closers cannot reach), which means that even against decent players nbs have an instant LoS tool that works even in the most open of areas and this allows for easy use of DD. Meanwhile sorcs that streak away are visible the whole time unless the player they are streaking away from is a complete noob who doesn't pay any attention or doesn't use tab-target (which invis also removes even if invis is only up for 1/2 a second). So while you cannot use dark deal while invis, you can use invis or shade to easily LoS enemies even right under their noses to give you more than enough time to use it and go back invis and re-engage them on your terms.

Streak is a good ability, but it is also a gap closer, which means it is very prone to not working, especially in lag, so best escape tool in the game it is not, especially compared to shade and undo which allows for players to teleport vertically as well as horizontally to heights and distances which no gap closer can follow up on.

Once again, you are saying to use other things (which I do use btw) to make dark deal work for sorcs, immo pots, cc immunity this time, and once again I come back to the point, if a skill requires outside factors to become viable, it is a badly designed skill that needs a rework, especially for an important defensive skill such as a heal.