Poor Flurry

Trundik

Flurry: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs were being treated as Damage over Time in some cases.

I thought that wasn't issue, rather feature. Flurry isn't very popular i think, but i used it exactly in dot builds with Deadly strike set for example. VMA Flurry set (Cruel Flurry) also supposed to be good addition to dot focused builds, but... With recent dot nerf, why this execution continues? You want all players to play one build for each class or what? I don't get it. There is a lot of spammables for dirrect damage use. Only flurry for dots and there shouldn't be no more?

Billium813

Trundik wrote: »

Flurry: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs were being treated as Damage over Time in some cases.

I thought that wasn't issue, rather feature. Flurry isn't very popular i think, but i used it exactly in dot builds with Deadly strike set for example.

Flurry is still a channeled ability, so it should still work with Deadly Strike

Flurry

Cost: 2700 Stamina
Channel time: 0.6 second
Target: Enemy
Maximum range: 7 meters

Deadly Strike

(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Increase the damage your damage over time and channeled abilities do by 15%.

Trundik wrote: »

VMA Flurry set (Cruel Flurry) also supposed to be good addition to dot focused builds, but... With recent dot nerf, why this execution continues?

@ZOS This feels like a decent point. If Flurry isn't a DOT anymore, then the Arena set Cruel Flurry should be updated too. Perhaps it should be changed to effect channeled abilities?

Cruel Flurry

(2 items) When you deal damage with Flurry, your single target damage over time abilities used within 4 seconds gain 1690 Spell and Weapon Damage.

JustAGoodPlayer

This skill change ... .

Sounds looks not match animation. Do not like new animation ... but it is not really too bad.
New templars jabs are much worse than this ... so ... not really the worst possible change.
If at least normal sound that much animation was added ... .
It looks like 2 hits ... but even so ... not really that bad ... .

Bad ... but it was possible make even worse so ... - if at least sound will be fixed = ok possible to live with such change.

Trundik

Flurry is still a channeled ability, so it should still work with Deadly Strike

Yes, but it won't benefit from thaumaturgy anymore, while rest of your dots will.

virtus753

Flurry has been direct damage since 2019. It is very much is a problem when a skill component is acting as both direct and DoT and double-dipping on CP and other bonuses because of it. Yes, both Master-at-Arms and Thaumaturge affect it on live. No other skill component in the game does that because it’s a bug that the devs don’t want but somehow keep allowing back into the game. I’m not sure why this is news when they already had to fix the CP issue with Flurry back in 6.3.4. Unfortunately the fix didn’t stick.

Deadly Strike was literally changed the same patch that Jabs and Flurry were to buff channeled as well as DoT skills. That change was made to make sure both skills were still included in the set bonus even though they weren’t DoTs.

Billium813

virtus753 wrote: »

Flurry has been direct damage since 2019. It is very much is a problem when a skill component is acting as both direct and DoT and double-dipping on CP and other bonuses because of it. Yes, both Master-at-Arms and Thaumaturge affect it on live. No other skill component in the game does that because it’s a bug that the devs don’t want but somehow keep allowing back into the game.

Jabs is both an AOE and direct damage. Doesn't Jabs double dip in Master-at-Arms and Biting Aura?

katorga

virtus753 wrote: »

Yes, both Master-at-Arms and Thaumaturge affect it on live. No other skill component in the game does that because it’s a bug that the devs don’t want but somehow keep allowing back into the game.

Every skill double dips CP - single target + direct damage, aoe + direct damage, and so on. Some triple, quadruple dip.

Trundik

I suggest to leave Bloodthirst as dot type damage. It does bleed damage, another morph - physical.

MindOfTheSwarm

Orange numbers are DoT's this was standardized ages ago.

Styxius

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Orange numbers are DoT's this was standardized ages ago.

yeah sadly ZOS hasn't updated the flurry's scrolling text to display that it's direct damage as they've been treating it.

virtus753

katorga wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Yes, both Master-at-Arms and Thaumaturge affect it on live. No other skill component in the game does that because it’s a bug that the devs don’t want but somehow keep allowing back into the game.

Every skill double dips CP - single target + direct damage, aoe + direct damage, and so on. Some triple, quadruple dip.

I didn't say "skill" - I said "skill component." No skill component (singular) double-dips on being both direct and DoT except Flurry right now.

Every skill component (singular) double-dips in total in the sense that it benefits from either direct or DoT and then either single-target or AoE. Flurry is a single skill component that triple-dips if you're counting that way, since it is buffed by Master-at-Arms, Thaumaturge, and Deadly Aim. (Test it now on live, if you wish.) It is a single component buffed by three separate stars, including the single-target (Deadly Aim) aspect but then both direct and DoT stars. There is no single skill component in this game that is counted by the devs as both direct and DoT at the same time.

What you're talking about in terms of skills that benefit from more than two CP are skills that have multiple components, each of which singularly benefits from two damage CP.

For example, Dawnbreaker has a direct component and a DoT component. Both are AoE. The first component benefits from Master-at-Arms, the second component benefits from Thaumaturge, and both components benefit from Biting Aura. None of its benefits from Deadly Aim, because none of it is single-target.

Poison Injection likewise has two components: a direct damage portion and a DoT portion. Both benefit from Deadly Aim, because they're both single-target, but the first part again benefits from Master-at-Arms and the second from Thaumaturge.

You can test this yourself by slotting each star and watching each component change separately depending on its type.

virtus753

Billium813 wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Flurry has been direct damage since 2019. It is very much is a problem when a skill component is acting as both direct and DoT and double-dipping on CP and other bonuses because of it. Yes, both Master-at-Arms and Thaumaturge affect it on live. No other skill component in the game does that because it’s a bug that the devs don’t want but somehow keep allowing back into the game.

Jabs is both an AOE and direct damage. Doesn't Jabs double dip in Master-at-Arms and Biting Aura?

AoE and direct are not mutually exclusive damage types in this game.

Direct and DoT are mutually exclusive and yet Flurry is being treated as both. That is why it's bugged, and that is why it's being fixed.

You're looking at the wrong comparisons here.

Jabs is AoE and Direct. It benefits from Biting Aura and Master-at-Arms.

Flurry is Single-Target and Direct. Yet it benefits from Deadly Aim, Master-at-Arms, and Thaumaturge.

ETA: I left out the bit about Deadly Aim in my initial post because I thought it went without saying that Flurry benefits from the single-target 6% CP star, being a skill comprising a single ST component. My emphasis was on Flurry benefiting from being treated as direct and DoT simultaneously, when those are mutually exclusive types.

It's AoE or Single-Target (but not both) and then Direct or DoT (but not both) for a given component of a skill. Flurry is somehow three of those despite each element in each pair being mutually exclusive of the other.

Billium813

virtus753 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Jabs is both an AOE and direct damage. Doesn't Jabs double dip in Master-at-Arms and Biting Aura?

AoE and direct are not mutually exclusive damage types in this game.

Direct and DoT are mutually exclusive and yet Flurry is both. That is why it's bugged, and that is why it's being fixed.

Correct. I think where people get confused with when looking at damage characteristics. Commonly, I see AOE, DOT, & Direct all lumped together. Sometimes, there is also a misunderstanding in thinking that Direct damage and Single-Target damage are the same thing, when they aren't. Or that an AOE can't be Direct, when it certainly can (remember, Conical AOEs have a direction and ESO sees all AOEs as AOEs)!

In ESO, damage is classified as either Damage Over Time (DOT) or Direct damage. It can't be both, which is where you are correct saying that are mutually exclusive and why Flurry needed to be fixed. How damage is distributed, Single-Target or Multi-Target (AOE), is another form.

So, you can have a Direct, AOE like Jabs and a Single-Target DOT like Poison Arrow.
You cannot have a Direct, DOT or a Single-Target, AOE cause those take from the same category.

virtus753 wrote: »

Jabs is AoE and Direct. It benefits from Biting Aura and Master-at-Arms.
Flurry is Single-Target and Direct. Yet it benefits from Deadly Aim, Master-at-Arms, and Thaumaturge.

I'm not disagreeing with you that Flurry shouldn't be a DoT and therefore shouldn't benefit from Thaumaturge.

merpins

Flurry isn't a DOT, so it shouldn't be effected by thaumaturge. The damage boost was nice, though, since it underperforms even with that boost. If anything, it just needs a buff.

virtus753

Billium813 wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you that Flurry shouldn't be a DoT and therefore shouldn't benefit from Thaumaturge.

What I'm disappointed in ZOS about here (aside from leaving us to discover what counts as what in terms of AoE/ST and Direct/DoT categories - sometimes it gets tricky with single-target sticky DoTs applied by AoE, like Merciless Charge) is that Flurry hasn't but also has been a DoT since 2019. That sends extremely mixed messages to the players. They didn't want it to be a DoT anymore, so they made it direct, but they left it benefiting from certain DoT bonuses, like Thaumaturge. They claimed to have fixed that last year but somehow it got reverted in the interim. Their fixes need to stick. That would have avoided a lot of confusion and disappointment with this (second) fix.

They also left most of the DoT-to-Direct changes out of the patch notes, including the change to Deadly Strike to account for Jabs and Flurry becoming direct. Screenshots of Deadly from early 2019 show Deadly only buffing DoTs, whereas screenshots from that fall show "channeled" as well. It is implied by a comment in 5.2.5 Dragonhold that Flurry had become direct as of mid-2019, but they weren't clear about it like they were with Jabs.

I also agree with the poster above that the ability-altering set for this skill might want to be reconsidered in light of the change away from DoT, but it's been three years now, so at this point I'm not sure ZOS is inclined to do anything about it.

Billium813

virtus753 wrote: »

What I'm disappointed in ZOS about here (aside from leaving us to discover what counts as what in terms of AoE/ST and Direct/DoT categories - sometimes it gets tricky with single-target sticky DoTs applied by AoE, like Merciless Charge)

I am ok with some things in the game being not directly obvious. Some people prefer to play more casually and don't care that they are super efficient in their skill choices and some people want a spreadsheet SIM. Some people don't want to have to know DOT vs Direct, Single vs AOE. They could certainly improve the mouse-over UI to show what currently equipped Skills are affected by specific constellation stars. But I don't discredit ZOS for hiding some of these damage distinctions behind more verbose wording.
They have been pretty good at attempting to keep the lingo inline to help people parse what effects to. I usually use Magic the Gathering as the gold standard for defining terms and carefully selecting how abilities are written. ZOS has room for improvement there sure and they could do with standardizing more effect statements (reusing the same terms, in the same patterns, to make everything more easy to grep)

virtus753 wrote: »

What I'm disappointed in ZOS about here (aside from leaving us to discover what counts as what in terms of AoE/ST and Direct/DoT categories - sometimes it gets tricky with single-target sticky DoTs applied by AoE, like Merciless Charge) is that Flurry hasn't but also has been a DoT since 2019. That sends extremely mixed messages to the players. They didn't want it to be a DoT anymore, so they made it direct, but they left it benefiting from certain DoT bonuses, like Thaumaturge. They claimed to have fixed that last year but somehow it got reverted in the interim. Their fixes need to stick. That would have avoided a lot of confusion and disappointment with this (second) fix.

As a software developer myself, I never fault products for having bugs in them. Certainly, I cannot speak to how maintainable and manageable their code base is (I seriously doubt it's in too good shape considering the several comments I have heard from their leads on WHY they don't make changes to base game zones, supposedly cause the code is too different from current dev, too messy, and/or unknown to devs), but bugs are inevitable. They didn't mean it to be a DoT and anyone taking advantage of it, well, good for them. It wasn't their intension and to me, that matters way more. But that's just me.

IMO, the only part that makes me bitter is when legitimate bugs are reported to them and they do not get them fixed or even have any transparency on acknowledging the bug was received. Bugs are inevitable and it is what it is IMO, but fixes should also be inevitable when said bug is brought to light.

MashmalloMan

virtus753 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you that Flurry shouldn't be a DoT and therefore shouldn't benefit from Thaumaturge.

They also left most of the DoT-to-Direct changes out of the patch notes, including the change to Deadly Strike to account for Jabs and Flurry becoming direct. Screenshots of Deadly from early 2019 show Deadly only buffing DoTs, whereas screenshots from that fall show "channeled" as well. It is implied by a comment in 5.2.5 Dragonhold that Flurry had become direct as of mid-2019, but they weren't clear about it like they were with Jabs.

I was around at that time and did tests with the changes. The changes to Jabs and Flurry to be counted as direct damage were coupled with changes to not just Deadly Strikes, but also Advancing Yokeda at the time. That was around when they added the 0.5s cooldown standard we see applied to other sets like Kinra's. Both skills are suppose to be direct.

Esentially, Flurry WAS a direct damage skill as it should with Jabs, but they later messed it up in the patch that brought Physical, Bleed and Magic damage as unique damage types with their own status types.

This is my own thought as to why this happened:

Basically, Bleeds before the damage type update were just Physical Damage that happened to be a sticky single target dot. This is because Bleeds before 2019 ignored enemies resistances. They had lower scaling, so they were useful for Bleeding out tanks, but bad in PVE where resistances are neutralized. ZOS wanted to make them more balanced across PVE and PVP, so Bleeds became flavour text. Just physical dots from a previous ESO context.

So go forward.. Bleed becomes it's own damage type which means it's no longer JUST a physical dot, it can come in direct damage OR dot. In the same patch, Flurry which was changed on the Bloodthirst morph to Bleed damage and you get an awkward scenario where Bleeds that use to be ONLY dots are now attached to a recently changed direct damage spammable.

Basically, a coder messed up when they made Bloodthirst bleed damage, they didn't code it properly and it effected both morphs.

This resulted in some weird effects..

1. Although Flurry is suppose to be 5 ticks of direct damage, it did not have 10% status effect chance per hit. It had 3% as single target dots do.
2. In this same patch, Flurry was able to proc 5 instances of Azureblight, which is suppose to only stack from taking dot damage.

So all things considered, if Flurry is truely fixed to only be direct damage than it should NOT work with Azureblight, but it should get 10% status effect chance per hit for the 4 hits, making it a useful tool to apply Sundered or Bleed like how Jabs is good for applying Sundered or Overcharged.

That last point, I need to actually test on the PTS.