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Sorc Adjustments that Should Come to PTS Week 4

  • Glantir
    Glantir
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    Give Empower to Daedric Curse and Morphs.
    Increase the Pet Damage bonus of Daedric Prey.
    Remove the initial cast requirement of Bound Armaments.
    Make one morph of Dark Echange into a burst heal without a cast time.
    One morph of Mages Fury should be a spamable.
    Glantir Sorcerer ~ Ebonheart Pact (EU)
  • Zabagad
    Zabagad
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    @MashmalloMan
    Tbh I read it and meant to reply, but it was the longest of the bunch so I didn't have the time.. at the time. Apologies.

    If you reply, maybe just @ me lol. This is too much to quote.
    The ghosts that I called :)
    I understand you, bc I'm now in the same spot as you were - especially english is not my native language and MYM is running :)
    So I basicly agree on all you said and will only point out the differences to make it as short as possible.

    So I'm fine with shield size would base on dmg and resource - but my fear stands that to end up in NoCp (with much less dmg) with an even smaller shield then now on live. If I get a bigger shield with e.g. Julianos vs Alfiq, then I'm fine with it.
    I only mentioned shock dmg during the shield discussion, just to show that these kind of sets - like Netch - wouldn't help me to stack dmg for the shieldsize. (Clever Alchemist and other sets are not working in NoCP)
    But that was before I understood your real reason for the shock approach.

    I understand your shock thematic view and I have nothing against it - but I think shield should be the key difference between mag and stam oriented builds. So I would prefer if they let the shiels base on mag only (not stam!) and spell/wpn-dmg.

    So to the main two points (1+2) from my wishlist and your comments on it.
    My main points were under the assuption that even ZOS agrees that magSorcs need some help.
    If they would destroy Frags in the cast time removing change, that wouldn't be any help.
    So I would understand that the spreadsheet guy wants less dmg then, but I was hoping for instand with a bit less dmg - but with the same proc and proc-dmg.
    Just to get one barslot free!

    Shield duration - yes basically that wish was to have a chance to stack a second shield and still have the same time to attack. My wish was only on our internal shield and only 2s not for 20s or something like that. I don't want that on other shields, so we would only "win" just 1 second in compare to now.
    I still think that magSorc should be the "best shield" class and in most situations it wouldn't even last long enough anyway :)
    I also don't see the differnce to the builds which stack HoTs where you have to get that healing negated "before you even entered a fight with them".
    So I don't think that this would be so unhealthy - but I accept your point. That was mainly the reason why I asked for other views.

    Anyway thanks for answering and we will see anyway what we get in a few days - I'm sure they will surprise us :)

    @MetallicMonk - would be nice if you just say something regarding shield duration minimal(!) increase. If you agree with Mash I'm done with that idea :)
    Edited by Zabagad on August 5, 2022 8:03AM
    PC EU (noCP AD) Grey/Grau AD
    Please raise the population caps.
    @ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.
  • emilyhyoyeon
    emilyhyoyeon
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    • Lightning Splash:
      • Enemies that take damage from this ability and morphs now take up to 6% extra shock damage for 3 seconds based on your weapon/spell damage.

    This would be my most favorite change. (Warden should get the same thing but for ice but that's not sorc related, don't wanna derail the topic)
    Edited by emilyhyoyeon on August 5, 2022 9:39AM
    IGN @ emilypumpkin, imperial pumpkin seller & ghost hunter
    Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage & ayleid researcher
  • Galarthor
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    I am all for buffing magsorc especially for PvP. But I don't like the suggested push towards all-shock-damage.
    The Dark Magic tree should should not be about shock damage and neither should the daedric summoning tree. They have darker themes.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    I am all for buffing magsorc especially for PvP. But I don't like the suggested push towards all-shock-damage.
    The Dark Magic tree should should not be about shock damage and neither should the daedric summoning tree. They have darker themes.

    Why? The non fire/poison DK trees are based on "Earth" and "Dragons", yet all their skills were changed to flame damage because that's what the community asked for since launch. Are rocks fire, no?

    We're talking about magic here, we can realistically make anything any damage type, there doesn't need to be real world logic.

    Plus.. within the Daedric Summoning tree, 5/6 of the pets do shock damage. That's not just a coincidence. How does a light attack from Volatile Familiar do shock damage? Why does the purple blast do shock damage? How does physical damage come from wind magic?

    It just does.

    I find the classes synergy for physical/shock mage lacking and there is nothing but benifits to doubling down on that idea. The agic damage on Sorc is not interesting, it's not logical, it's not fun to build for, it just is because it happened to be a long time ago and it should change.

    Were complaining about class identity, but 1 of the biggest issues is this damage type dilema and how ESO as an MMO functions. We've got 100s of sets, pretty sure around 500 now, and 100s of skills, what is to stop everyone from running the exact same thing if no class exceeds at anything specific?

    These slight advantages are important because it helps pave a path for what a class should probably use, but it doesn't necessarily punish them for using something else.

    DK's have excellent class identity because they've got these specific advantages to build for.
    • High status effect chance = more sustain and damage via combustion.
    • High ult gen = more ult dumps for more resource return, but also some of the best ults in the game via leap and corrosive armor.
    • All fire/poison damage = fire/poison sets and skills feel more rewarding to use.

    I just really can't understand the logic to be against that change when it introduces much needed build variety to a game with literally 100s of options, it's almost necessary at this point the more ZOS homogenizes every skill.

    I don't see wardens complaining about getting more bleeds and frost damage skills. The more zos doubles down on this idea, the more fun a class feels to build and play with.
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Galarthor
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    Nothing wrong with a Sorcerer having more than 1 damage source - i.e. shock.

    I rather have the abilities deal the type of damage that befits their description and animation. Sure Sorcs have a lightning damage passive, but you can just increase the tooltip damage of the non-shock abilities - or change the passive.

    Class identity comes from the animations and play style. In the end you only see a number pop up, whether that's shock, magic, physical, or whatever doesn't really matter. What matters though is consistency. If DK flames dealt frost damage that would ruin immersion. Same goes for dark magic skills dealing shock damage when there are explicit shock skills with appropriate animations in the game. You feel like sorc is about lightning b/c you have lightning based animations, not b/c the tooltip says shock damage. And Dark Magic skills and Daedric Summoning skills are not lightning based animations / skills. Therefore they shouldn't deal shock damage primarily - summoning a pet and having that deal shock damage is still fits the animation and theme, so that is fine. But the skills you apply directly, shouldn't.
  • MashmalloMan
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with a Sorcerer having more than 1 damage source - i.e. shock.
    Of course, only f it supports the idea of the class and what they should be good at. Shock and Physical do that. They're the Electric/Wind mage of ESO. What doesn't support that is Magic damage, as you said, Summoning can do any damage type, so why can't Curses or rather Dark Magic deal Shock/Physical damage?

    On the flip side, having irrelevant damage types do hurt the class as you said in your own example:
    Galarthor wrote: »
    What matters though is consistency. If DK flames dealt frost damage that would ruin immersion.

    DK's had numerous skills throughout the years that dealt Magic damage instead of Flame damage. Does that not ruin immersion? They were in the spot we are right now. Magic damage wasn't consistent with their skills and class identity at all.

    Talons, Petrify and Volatile Armor are the most recent skill changes I can think of that went from Magic to Fire. Either damage type is justifyable from the standpoint of immersion as is with Daedric Summoning or Dark Magic imo, but only one of the 2 is actually useful for DK's class kit. The last skills that don't deal flame or poison damage are Take Flight and the upfront damage on Deep Breath. I'd argue they should change, deep breath doesn't really need any animation or VFX change, but Take Flight could get a green effect if they really wanted to in the future.

    DK's are by far, the best designed class in the game, everything feels deliberate and thoughtful. They're a fun class to build for with numerous options I listed already for status effects or ult gen, 1 of the primary reasons is because they have all their damage centralized. They're also given ways to feed into those idea's like guaranteed status effect chance via Claw and Combustion returning resources with extra damage for those status effects.
    Galarthor wrote: »
    I rather have the abilities deal the type of damage that befits their description and animation. Sure Sorcs have a lightning damage passive, but you can just increase the tooltip damage of the non-shock abilities - or change the passive.
    Magic damage doesn't benefit any of the skills mentioned in terms of description or animation anymore than it would Shock. Crystal Weapon and Crystal Frags are both purple crystals, yet deal different damage types. Volatile Familiar scratches enemies, but deals shock damage and pulses purple, yet deals shock damage. There is no benefit or logic to existing skills already, but you're using it as a reason to justify not changing the damage types.

    For improving non shock skills by 5%, missing my point, nothing to do with missing out on -5% damage although that's obviously a plus. As my previous comments show, it comes down to class and build identity. We should be the best shock mages and we're not. Sets like Netch's Touch or Storm-Cursed's Revenge aren't any stronger than generic damage sets that also improve healing output, yet DK's, Warden's and Templar's are capable of using sets like Elfbane, Frostbite, Morag Tong or War Maiden competitively.

    Why would we change/remove the Element passive when we can change the skills I suggested and improve upon the passive like DK and Warden's have it?

    Sorc had better Physical/Shock identity back when Amplitude passive was Implosion. Like Burning Light from Templar, it had a 6% chance when dealing Physical/Shock daage to proc on targets below 15% health for X Physical/Shock damage. It was removed for Amplitude because it was basically a free kill and very annoying to fight against. It was still a really cool passive that solidified what Sorc's are suppose to be good at and we lost that over time.

    My suggestion to change damage types is a simple one that I felt finally had some chance of being implemented this PTS because they just did it for DK. I'm not saying that is enough to finish what I hope to achieve, but it's a step in that direction. I hope they add or adjust one of our passives for a focus on Utility or AOE damage from Physical/Shock.

    Eg. All physical/shock damage has a 10% chance to deal X physical/shock damage to nearyby targets for 10% of the damage done... or Applying the Sunderered/Concussed status effects increase movement speed by X % 4s. I have no idea, but something.
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Same goes for dark magic skills dealing shock damage when there are explicit shock skills with appropriate animations in the game. You feel like sorc is about lightning b/c you have lightning based animations, not b/c the tooltip says shock damage. And Dark Magic skills and Daedric Summoning skills are not lightning based animations / skills. Therefore they shouldn't deal shock damage primarily - summoning a pet and having that deal shock damage is still fits the animation and theme, so that is fine. But the skills you apply directly, shouldn't.

    Just gonna repeat my Crystal Frag/Weapon and Volatile Familiar example from above. They already don't match what you would categorize as purple = magic damage. You can adjust animations and colour if that is your primary concern, but magic damage has no place on the class whatsoever.

    As far as I'm concerned Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning could apply to any damage type in the game just like how Draconic Power and Earthen Heart can. Trying to apply real world logic to an RPG with magic that can be and do anything, set in a video game universe that prides itself on gameplay over lore is a loose argument. We're riding colourful galaxy mounts with rainbow skin. How does that make any sense?

    Imo, ZOS should double down on the most popular elements for each class and give them more unique flavour like DK and Warden. Why give Sorc's 20% of their kit as Magic damage when 80% of Templar's is Magic where sets like War Maiden actually get used.
    • Sorc = Lightning/Physical
    • DK = Poison/Fire
    • Warden = Bleed/Frost
    • Necro = Elementalist (they have 1 of every 8 elements in their kit and get bonuses to all dot damage)
    • Templar = Magic/Physical (holy magic)
    • NB = Magic/Disease (dark/shadow magic)
    Edited by MashmalloMan on August 6, 2022 11:29PM
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Fix shields. When you shield, you’re not doing damage. Now you’re not doing damage OR protecting yourself. Scaling is based on max mag, and most people just break it in one GCD.

    Fix Crystal frags. The proc rate is almost as bad as the cast time. The projectile speed is terrible. Why doesn’t Sorc get major breach on this or something?

    Fix our heals. Single bar matriarch pet, and give it health in line with other non-Sorc class pets. Right now people just one-shot it. What’s the point?

    Rune cage is useless. Do something with this.

    Magicka specs are pointless. Give us a class respec token at least. That way we can play “Gilliam’s Terrible Nightblade Sim” game like everyone else.
    Edited by Minalan on August 7, 2022 3:21PM
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
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    Minalan wrote: »
    Fix shields. When you shield, you’re not doing damage. Now you’re not doing damage OR protecting yourself. Scaling is based on max mag, and most people just break it in one GCD.

    Fix Crystal frags. The proc rate is almost as bad as the cast time. The projectile speed is terrible. Why doesn’t Sorc get major breach on this or something?

    Fix our heals. Single bar matriarch pet, and give it health in line with other non-Sorc class pets. Right now people just one-shot it. What’s the point?

    Rune cage is useless. Do something with this.

    Magicka specs are pointless. Give us a class respec token at least. That way we can play “Gilliam’s Terrible Nightblade Sim” game like everyone else.

    Amen to most of that.

    The frag proc rate is fine I think. But the minimum travel time is a joke, especially given how obviously it is telegraphed.
    Pets are an issue. 2bar is fine, if they offer an appropriate amount of utility. Better yet, get rid of those summoned pets and replace them with a normal ability.

    Rune Cage really is useless. And Streak CC is not working in PvP b/c it is too laggy.

    Also, would like to see some additional effects on our abilities. They are so 1-dimensional and the bars pretty much have to look the same for all mag sorcs.

    Increase the damage of the Execute. It hits like a wet noodle in addition to having a very low threshold. Meanwhile there is spin2win and that is considered ok ...
  • thechiefisback
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    Why not having a mag dps morph of bound armaments too, like the grim focus with nightblades?
  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    Please don't make any more "light attack to build stacks" skills or sets. I'm so sick of that mechanic, and it's the worst part of NB that it's centered around that stupid spectral auto-miss crap.
  • Tannus15
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    Why not having a mag dps morph of bound armaments too, like the grim focus with nightblades?

    honestly i'm not sure what the purpose of bound armaments is now.
    it was changed to be a stamina version of frags.
    but now stam can use frags anyway so BA is now more like frags if you want to use crystal weapon. except it's not strong enough to bother with and the passives aren't enough to justify it.
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    Tannus15 wrote: »
    Why not having a mag dps morph of bound armaments too, like the grim focus with nightblades?

    honestly i'm not sure what the purpose of bound armaments is now.
    it was changed to be a stamina version of frags.
    but now stam can use frags anyway so BA is now more like frags if you want to use crystal weapon. except it's not strong enough to bother with and the passives aren't enough to justify it.

    i have literally no idea why they made those nerfs to be honest.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • MetallicMonk
    MetallicMonk
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    Crystal weapon was overperforming for sure, bound armaments I really don't think was overperforming in any situation not sure why it got nerfed. Aside from that sorc has a ton of underperforming passives and skills so not sure why they didn't focus on that at all.
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    Those sorc changes are pretty lackluster.

    But, I think the 45% damage increase now from Deadric Prey, paired with the Oakensoul and Heavy attack damage changes, makes running a heavy attack pet build very interesting.
  • Stncold
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    Not a thing worthwhile. Sorcs are just absolutely dead for this patch. Mag and stam absolute ***.
  • EF321
    EF321
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    I already heave meta PvP build ready:
    ufy7zjwbchj1.png
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Welp thats all folks. 2... very minor changes.
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • jaws343
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    EF321 wrote: »
    I already heave meta PvP build ready:
    ufy7zjwbchj1.png

    I was eying similar from a PVE perspective:

    Oaken, Perfected Lightning Maelstrom, Maw, Unleashed Ritualist, 2 piece willpower.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Welp thats all folks. 2... very minor changes.

    Good changes, but not enough. The Crystal Weapon buff is nice, and lands it in a decent spot overall, but it also makes Bound Armaments look worse in comparison. The 4s semi-spammable should not be weaker than the 2s semi-spammable. This lands us back at the same scenario we see on live, where the best move is to ignore Armaments procs and continue alternating between Crystal Weapon and DoTs. The problem now is that Armaments does not even give a light attack buff while active, so slotting it at all becomes questionable.

    This affects execute as well, since the current meta is to alternate CW and Endless Fury, while ignoring Bound Armaments. I would like to see a cast of Armaments outperform both Crystal Weapon and Endless Fury, so that execute does not become one-button spam (EF>EF>EF>BA is more interesting than EF>EF>EF>EF on PTS or CW>EF>CW>EF on live). I don't think Crystal Weapon needs to be better than Endless Fury (or only 1/4 spammables in execute would be fury and it would not be worth a bar slot CW>BA>CW>EF).

    Daedric Prey needed the increase since pet damage was nerfed, otherwise Haunting would be best even on pet builds. It also helps the Storm Atro a little, but I'd like to see a small duration increase.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on August 8, 2022 5:00PM
  • jaws343
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    Welp thats all folks. 2... very minor changes.

    Good changes, but not enough. The Crystal Weapon buff is nice, and lands it in a decent spot overall, but it also makes Bound Armaments look worse in comparison. The 4s semi-spammable should not be weaker than the 2s semi-spammable. This lands us back at the same scenario we see on live, where the best move is to ignore Armaments procs and continue alternating between Crystal Weapon and DoTs. The problem now is that Armaments does not even give a light attack buff while active, so slotting it at all becomes questionable.

    This affects execute as well, since the current meta is to alternate CW and Endless Fury, while ignoring Bound Armaments. I would like to see a cast of Armaments outperform both Crystal Weapon and Endless Fury, so that execute does not become one-button spam (EF>EF>EF>BA is more interesting than EF>EF>EF>EF on PTS or CW>EF>CW>EF on live). I don't think Crystal Weapon needs to be better than Endless Fury (or only 1/4 spammables in execute would be fury and it would not be worth a bar slot CW>BA>CW>EF).

    Daedric Prey needed the increase since pet damage was nerfed, otherwise Haunting would be best even on pet builds. It also helps the Storm Atro a little, but I'd like to see a small duration increase.

    Duration increase for Prey would be useful. As it is, having to recast it every 6 seconds is a bit much.
  • MashmalloMan
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    Good changes, but not enough. The Crystal Weapon buff is nice, and lands it in a decent spot overall, but it also makes Bound Armaments look worse in comparison. The 4s semi-spammable should not be weaker than the 2s semi-spammable. This lands us back at the same scenario we see on live, where the best move is to ignore Armaments procs and continue alternating between Crystal Weapon and DoTs. The problem now is that Armaments does not even give a light attack buff while active, so slotting it at all becomes questionable.

    I already replied to your math in a previous comment. BA's problem isn't that it does less damage, it's that it functionally sucks because it's easy to dodge. Doesn't matter how much damage you give it, frankly the damage is in a good place and worth casting for damage/sustain alone.

    Plus, your math is off which disproves your argument. 145% total damage of CW is equivilant to 165% from BA. BA still does more damage.

    This is moreso from the perspective of PVP where dodging matters. As I suggested, the stamina given should be active instead of passive to make up for the losses and to improve the quality of life. Long term, the buff should be hybridized to help it fit better with mag sorcs in a dynamic scaling context we have.
    This affects execute as well, since the current meta is to alternate CW and Endless Fury, while ignoring Bound Armaments. I would like to see a cast of Armaments outperform both Crystal Weapon and Endless Fury, so that execute does not become one-button spam (EF>EF>EF>BA is more interesting than EF>EF>EF>EF on PTS or CW>EF>CW>EF on live). I don't think Crystal Weapon needs to be better than Endless Fury (or only 1/4 spammables in execute would be fury and it would not be worth a bar slot CW>BA>CW>EF).

    Expecting a skill to be worth it in execute is a fever dream. Most builds abandon every other skill type in execute, besides maybe your weapon static dot for backbar enchant or ults. The fact that you use CW and EF together just shows how weak EF is as an execute skill, not how weak BA is.

    If BA gave any more it would start approaching NB's Grim Focus level and I don't think it should be allowed to do that. Sorc has Curse, Crystal Frag/Weapon, BA and somewhat Fury for delayed burst. NB only has Grim Focus.

    BA is more used as a buff skill for sustained damage for a cheaper cost and less stacks, rather than something like Grim Focus for burst which would be like our Frag or CW + Curse combo.
    Daedric Prey needed the increase since pet damage was nerfed, otherwise Haunting would be best even on pet builds. It also helps the Storm Atro a little, but I'd like to see a small duration increase.

    Excellent idea. Double the debuff duration to 12s, keep the 6s burst.

    Edit Edit: Updated the comment instead of making another one to address your other points.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on August 8, 2022 6:07PM
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    Welp thats all folks. 2... very minor changes.

    Good changes, but not enough. The Crystal Weapon buff is nice, and lands it in a decent spot overall, but it also makes Bound Armaments look worse in comparison. The 4s semi-spammable should not be weaker than the 2s semi-spammable. This lands us back at the same scenario we see on live, where the best move is to ignore Armaments procs and continue alternating between Crystal Weapon and DoTs. The problem now is that Armaments does not even give a light attack buff while active, so slotting it at all becomes questionable.

    This affects execute as well, since the current meta is to alternate CW and Endless Fury, while ignoring Bound Armaments. I would like to see a cast of Armaments outperform both Crystal Weapon and Endless Fury, so that execute does not become one-button spam (EF>EF>EF>BA is more interesting than EF>EF>EF>EF on PTS or CW>EF>CW>EF on live). I don't think Crystal Weapon needs to be better than Endless Fury (or only 1/4 spammables in execute would be fury and it would not be worth a bar slot CW>BA>CW>EF).

    Daedric Prey needed the increase since pet damage was nerfed, otherwise Haunting would be best even on pet builds. It also helps the Storm Atro a little, but I'd like to see a small duration increase.

    Duration increase for Prey would be useful. As it is, having to recast it every 6 seconds is a bit much.

    That would be fantastic. Remembering that one if I ever make another thread for live, but honestly.. looks like I'm taking a break from ESO. This isn't worth the headache. We should be excited for patches, not dreading them. The fact that we feel the need to fight for our classes before a PTS ends is sad. A game is meant to be fun, they should improve and tweak, not nuke classes.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on August 8, 2022 5:21PM
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • terrasight
    terrasight
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    EF321 wrote: »
    I already heave meta PvP build ready:
    ufy7zjwbchj1.png

    May i ask what skillsbars/CP do u have in mind front/back?
    Edited by terrasight on August 8, 2022 5:32PM
    Hekat'e / Hel'a Niflheim - Sorc / Necro - PS5 EU
  • EF321
    EF321
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    terrasight wrote: »
    EF321 wrote: »
    I already heave meta PvP build ready:
    ufy7zjwbchj1.png

    May i ask what skillsbars/CP do u have in mind front/back?

    This, except for curse morph (currently in different loadout):
    9wzoyxmw4ex8.png
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    Conjured Ward:
    This ability and morphs now scale based on weapon/spell damage and max stamina/magicka instead of just max magicka, but still capped by your max HP.

    That should have been done when ONE TAMRIEL went live.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Good changes, but not enough. The Crystal Weapon buff is nice, and lands it in a decent spot overall, but it also makes Bound Armaments look worse in comparison. The 4s semi-spammable should not be weaker than the 2s semi-spammable. This lands us back at the same scenario we see on live, where the best move is to ignore Armaments procs and continue alternating between Crystal Weapon and DoTs. The problem now is that Armaments does not even give a light attack buff while active, so slotting it at all becomes questionable.

    I already replied to your math in a previous comment. BA's problem isn't that it does less damage, it's that it functionally sucks because it's easy to dodge. Doesn't matter how much damage you give it, frankly the damage is in a good place and worth casting for damage/sustain alone.

    Plus, your math is off which disproves your the argument you made. 145% total damage of CW is equivilant to 165% from BA. BA still does more damage.

    This is moreso from the perspective of PVP where dodging matters. As I suggested, the stamina given should be active instead of passive to make up for the losses and to improve the quality of life. Long term, the buff should be hybridized to help it fit better with mag sorcs in a dynamic scaling context we have.
    This affects execute as well, since the current meta is to alternate CW and Endless Fury, while ignoring Bound Armaments. I would like to see a cast of Armaments outperform both Crystal Weapon and Endless Fury, so that execute does not become one-button spam (EF>EF>EF>BA is more interesting than EF>EF>EF>EF on PTS or CW>EF>CW>EF on live). I don't think Crystal Weapon needs to be better than Endless Fury (or only 1/4 spammables in execute would be fury and it would not be worth a bar slot CW>BA>CW>EF).

    Expecting a skill to be worth it in execute is a fever dream. Most builds abandon every other skill type in execute, besides maybe your weapon static dot for backbar enchant or ults. The fact that you use CW and EF together just shows how weak EF is as an execute skill, not how weak BA is.

    If BA gave any more it would start approaching NB's Grim Focus level and I don't think it should be allowed to do that. Sorc has Curse, Crystal Frag/Weapon, BA and somewhat Fury for delayed burst. NB only has Grim Focus.

    BA is more used as a buff skill for sustained damage for a cheaper cost and less stacks, rather than something like Grim Focus for burst which would be like our Frag or CW + Curse combo.
    Daedric Prey needed the increase since pet damage was nerfed, otherwise Haunting would be best even on pet builds. It also helps the Storm Atro a little, but I'd like to see a small duration increase.

    Excellent idea. Double the debuff duration to 12s, keep the 6s burst.

    Edit Edit: Updated the comment instead of making another one to address your other points.

    Hmm, we seem to be working with different numbers. If the first hit of Crystal Weapon is 1.00 then I'm seeing the 4 daggers of Armaments hitting 1.67 on live and 1.49 on PTS (8.1.2 and beyond, it was 1.04 on earlier PTS). Best case for proccing daggers 10 times is to use 11 GCD's, which means damage per cast on Armaments with perfect weaving is 1.36. This is marginally better than Crystal Weapon's 1.3 in 8.1.2 and 8.1.3 (still debatable if it's worth a bar slot for sustained damage), but significantly worse than the 1.45 of Crystal Weapon in 8.1.4.

    Please let me know if something is off with these numbers, I will be relieved if I am wrong about how useless Armaments is looking.

    I'm speaking from a PVE perspective, where burst does not matter as much, and ground DoTs fill more GCD's. I could see the PvP perspective being more generous and using the 1.49 value assuming that they can pre-cast the Armaments buff once and the fight will be over within 40s. Even so, I'm not sure Armaments is worth a bar slot when it only does 1.49/1.45=2.75% more than a cast of Crystal Weapon, especially when considering how easy it is to dodge. Both skills also require landing light attacks in PVP, which can be difficult. The 8% max stamina is underwhelming, and removal of the 10% light attack damage means the only utility within the 40s window is unlocking a mediocre burst skill.

    Edit: PTS is back up and it seems I'm wrong. Armaments is in fact doing 1.65X Crystal Weapon's first hit, or best case 1.5 per cast. And Crystal Weapon's 2nd hit is not getting the advertised 45%, it seems to be 40% of the first hit for 1.40 per cast. This is balanced much better than I believed, not sure if I missed a patch note or if something was stealth buffed, but glad you pointed it out @MashmalloMan. I'd rather be happy than correct, and this results in much better skill priorities. It would still be nice if Armaments dealt more damage than Endless Fury, but that one is more subjective.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on August 8, 2022 6:30PM
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    Welp thats all folks. 2... very minor changes.

    Good changes, but not enough. The Crystal Weapon buff is nice, and lands it in a decent spot overall, but it also makes Bound Armaments look worse in comparison. The 4s semi-spammable should not be weaker than the 2s semi-spammable. This lands us back at the same scenario we see on live, where the best move is to ignore Armaments procs and continue alternating between Crystal Weapon and DoTs. The problem now is that Armaments does not even give a light attack buff while active, so slotting it at all becomes questionable.

    This affects execute as well, since the current meta is to alternate CW and Endless Fury, while ignoring Bound Armaments. I would like to see a cast of Armaments outperform both Crystal Weapon and Endless Fury, so that execute does not become one-button spam (EF>EF>EF>BA is more interesting than EF>EF>EF>EF on PTS or CW>EF>CW>EF on live). I don't think Crystal Weapon needs to be better than Endless Fury (or only 1/4 spammables in execute would be fury and it would not be worth a bar slot CW>BA>CW>EF).

    Daedric Prey needed the increase since pet damage was nerfed, otherwise Haunting would be best even on pet builds. It also helps the Storm Atro a little, but I'd like to see a small duration increase.

    Duration increase for Prey would be useful. As it is, having to recast it every 6 seconds is a bit much.

    That would be fantastic. Remembering that one if I ever make another thread for live, but honestly.. looks like I'm taking a break from ESO. This isn't worth the headache. We should be excited for patches, not dreading them. The fact that we feel the need to fight for our classes before a PTS ends is sad. A game is meant to be fun, they should improve and tweak, not nuke classes.

    Agreed, 8s would be ideal to use with Armaments every other cast, and 15s DoTs could be recast with every other Prey for a 16s rotation.
  • LukosCreyden
    LukosCreyden
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    So, question from a genuinely oblivious person who was tempted to try sorc for solo pve and pvp:

    Is magsorc worth playing if you hate daedra summons? I kinda wanted to play with lightning magic and the other, non summon stuff. It looked like fun. Kind of stuck between classes after retiring my necro.
    So, should I look at sorc for the future? Or look elsewhere for my magey desires?
    Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    So, question from a genuinely oblivious person who was tempted to try sorc for solo pve and pvp:

    Is magsorc worth playing if you hate daedra summons? I kinda wanted to play with lightning magic and the other, non summon stuff. It looked like fun. Kind of stuck between classes after retiring my necro.
    So, should I look at sorc for the future? Or look elsewhere for my magey desires?

    Yes of course, especially in pvp where it's not best to use them anyway. Unless you're min-maxing, you really don't need to use pets in pve, but they are a pretty big portion of your dps so you are nerfing yourself for more effort and less payoff. Luckily, Sorc has a lot of damage skill options so you still have something to use.

    A class like Necro, without pets would basically be a weapon line holder at that point. Sorc doesn't have that issue.

    I've played Stam Sorc as my main for 8 years, through the bad and good.. mostly bad in the beginning. I wouldn't focus too hard on dps that shifts patch to patch. Choose what you find fun. I think Sorc without pets is the most fun class in the game because I enjoy the theme and skillset of the class.

    It just feels like a lot of quality of life improvements are needed after every other class has received adjustments the past year or so through hybridization of skills. Some underwhelming passives and loss of non pet sorc identity. For pvp, not having access to a 1 skill slot burst heal sucks, but Dark Deal/Dark Exchange can help a little with that.. even if it's like 65% the value.

    TLDR: Don't bother chasing meta, you'll never be satisfied.
    Good changes, but not enough. The Crystal Weapon buff is nice, and lands it in a decent spot overall, but it also makes Bound Armaments look worse in comparison. The 4s semi-spammable should not be weaker than the 2s semi-spammable. This lands us back at the same scenario we see on live, where the best move is to ignore Armaments procs and continue alternating between Crystal Weapon and DoTs. The problem now is that Armaments does not even give a light attack buff while active, so slotting it at all becomes questionable.

    I already replied to your math in a previous comment. BA's problem isn't that it does less damage, it's that it functionally sucks because it's easy to dodge. Doesn't matter how much damage you give it, frankly the damage is in a good place and worth casting for damage/sustain alone.

    Plus, your math is off which disproves your the argument you made. 145% total damage of CW is equivilant to 165% from BA. BA still does more damage.

    This is moreso from the perspective of PVP where dodging matters. As I suggested, the stamina given should be active instead of passive to make up for the losses and to improve the quality of life. Long term, the buff should be hybridized to help it fit better with mag sorcs in a dynamic scaling context we have.
    This affects execute as well, since the current meta is to alternate CW and Endless Fury, while ignoring Bound Armaments. I would like to see a cast of Armaments outperform both Crystal Weapon and Endless Fury, so that execute does not become one-button spam (EF>EF>EF>BA is more interesting than EF>EF>EF>EF on PTS or CW>EF>CW>EF on live). I don't think Crystal Weapon needs to be better than Endless Fury (or only 1/4 spammables in execute would be fury and it would not be worth a bar slot CW>BA>CW>EF).

    Expecting a skill to be worth it in execute is a fever dream. Most builds abandon every other skill type in execute, besides maybe your weapon static dot for backbar enchant or ults. The fact that you use CW and EF together just shows how weak EF is as an execute skill, not how weak BA is.

    If BA gave any more it would start approaching NB's Grim Focus level and I don't think it should be allowed to do that. Sorc has Curse, Crystal Frag/Weapon, BA and somewhat Fury for delayed burst. NB only has Grim Focus.

    BA is more used as a buff skill for sustained damage for a cheaper cost and less stacks, rather than something like Grim Focus for burst which would be like our Frag or CW + Curse combo.
    Daedric Prey needed the increase since pet damage was nerfed, otherwise Haunting would be best even on pet builds. It also helps the Storm Atro a little, but I'd like to see a small duration increase.

    Excellent idea. Double the debuff duration to 12s, keep the 6s burst.

    Edit Edit: Updated the comment instead of making another one to address your other points.
    PTS is back up and it seems I'm wrong. Armaments is in fact doing 1.65X Crystal Weapon's first hit, or best case 1.5 per cast. And Crystal Weapon's 2nd hit is not getting the advertised 45%, it seems to be 40% of the first hit for 1.40 per cast. This is balanced much better than I believed, not sure if I missed a patch note or if something was stealth buffed, but glad you pointed it out @MashmalloMan. I'd rather be happy than correct, and this results in much better skill priorities. It would still be nice if Armaments dealt more damage than Endless Fury, but that one is more subjective.

    Nerf vs live is only 11%, think you missed week 3.

    Week 1 -38% damage, week 3 +44% damage. (0.62 x 1.44 = 0.89)

    Wow.. you're right.. it does show 40%, that doesn't even make it better than Rapid Strikes, but double the amount of effort. The skill still doesn't take into account the risk/reward it takes to pull off. I'd rather have a direct spammable than this nonsense.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on August 8, 2022 7:27PM
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
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