Sorc Adjustments that Should Come to PTS Week 4

WrathOfInnos

I like these ideas a lot. The only one I disagree with is Crystal Weapon. I enjoy the useful 1k unique armor debuff, it helps medium armor builds get to the PVE armor cap and often earns stam sorc a roster spot (which is not guaranteed now that Nightblade and Sorc crit buffs are largely redundant).

I also think that the total damage per cast of Crystal Weapon should be lower than a full Bound Armaments proc. The 4s cooldown and activation cast should result in a stronger attack than crystal weapon's 2s effective cooldown. On live it feels stupid that the meta is leaving Armaments stacks at 4 and ignoring the proc to continue alternating Crystal + DoT. The ~1.3 and ~1.4 scaling on PTS achieves this desired priority, but maybe something like 1.4 (CW) and 1.5 (BA) would be best. I just don't think CW should leapfrog over BA.

xDeusEJRx

The only changes I'd like to see this list are:

Crystal weapon - I'd like it to keep it's unique penetration buff

Bound armaments - rework the current ability to work kind of how Grim Focus used to work. For every light/heavy attack you increase a stat by like 1-3% per dagger summoned. (number can be interchangeable)
The stat I propose is critical chance. For every dagger summoned, you up your crit chance by either 2% or 3% again number is interchangeable, just brainstorming here

Right now sorcerer suffers from lack of healing and bound armaments functioning in such a way will help sorcerer maximize the healing you get ouf of Critical surge/Power surge. Both morphs benefit from the critical percent bonus and it helps sorcerer healers and solo sorcerers who are built into critical chance

MetallicMonk

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

The only changes I'd like to see this list are:

Crystal weapon - I'd like it to keep it's unique penetration buff

Bound armaments - rework the current ability to work kind of how Grim Focus used to work. For every light/heavy attack you increase a stat by 1% per dagger summoned.
The stat I propose is critical chance. For every dagger summoned, you up your crit chance by either 1%

Right now sorcerer suffers from lack of healing and bound armaments functioning in such a way will help sorcerer maximize the healing you get ouf of Critical surge/Power surge. Both morphs benefit from the critical percent bonus and it helps sorcerer healers and solo sorcerers who are built into critical chance

Sorc needs way more help healing wise than just more crit surge procs lol

xDeusEJRx

MetallicMonk wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

The only changes I'd like to see this list are:

Crystal weapon - I'd like it to keep it's unique penetration buff

Bound armaments - rework the current ability to work kind of how Grim Focus used to work. For every light/heavy attack you increase a stat by 1% per dagger summoned.
The stat I propose is critical chance. For every dagger summoned, you up your crit chance by either 1%

Right now sorcerer suffers from lack of healing and bound armaments functioning in such a way will help sorcerer maximize the healing you get ouf of Critical surge/Power surge. Both morphs benefit from the critical percent bonus and it helps sorcerer healers and solo sorcerers who are built into critical chance

Sorc needs way more help healing wise than just more crit surge procs lol

I agree with that but any help at all is better for sorcerer than what's been done to the class in 2 years. And I think it's a nice small step to address that and it's not too big of a buff to be overbearing in both PVE and PvP

MetallicMonk

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I agree with that but any help at all is better for sorcerer than what's been done to the class in 2 years. And I think it's a nice small step to address that and it's not too big of a buff to be overbearing in both PVE and PvP

I have no issues with the change just stating it would still be a pretty bottom tier class; also magsorc is in need of the most help and wouldn't do anything to help them really.

Aces-High-82

1. Streak: either remove fatigue or increase range to a comparable value as other gap closers. The fatigue alone is just ridiculous to begin with. Don't see that crap on toppling eg.
2. Ward: even building into max mag it is laughable compared to burst heals if you compare the cost. 4k max mag should result in 1k shield strength, no matter in which environment. The health cap just hinders to build for a glass cannon type.
3. Frags: since Miats exists the travel time is simply too slow. Don't know how to adjust crystal morph to retains its power but clearly Cfrag needs some love. A stun like in the past would help if proc. If that's too much increase proc chance significantly or increase its proc damage portion to 100%

xDeusEJRx

MetallicMonk wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I agree with that but any help at all is better for sorcerer than what's been done to the class in 2 years. And I think it's a nice small step to address that and it's not too big of a buff to be overbearing in both PVE and PvP

I have no issues with the change just stating it would still be a pretty bottom tier class; also magsorc is in need of the most help and wouldn't do anything to help them really.

And I agree as such but I'm trying to propose something that won't break the class or cause another situation where we get an overnerfed skill/passive like with what happened to ball of lightning, crystal weapon, and daedric protection passive(during early 2021 when they nerfed health regen in pvp).

Zos has a tendency to make things too strong and then over-nerf it later. I'm trying to propose small increases that won't lead to another one of these situations. That's really the result of the current state of sorcerer, constant nerfs because of the class doing well with 1 particular thing that leaves a skill or passive completely over-nerfed when they adjust the skill

Zabagad

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

1. Streak: either remove fatigue or increase range to a comparable value as other gap closers. The fatigue alone is just ridiculous to begin with. Don't see that crap on toppling eg.
2. Ward: even building into max mag it is laughable compared to burst heals if you compare the cost. 4k max mag should result in 1k shield strength, no matter in which environment. The health cap just hinders to build for a glass cannon type.
3. Frags: since Miats exists the travel time is simply too slow. Don't know how to adjust crystal morph to retains its power but clearly Cfrag needs some love. A stun like in the past would help if proc. If that's too much increase proc chance significantly or increase its proc damage portion to 100%

Sorry to say this, but this is the first comment I like in this thread.

I know that OP is much more competend then I am and I like his effort and expertise.
( Btw: I liked you post from 3 days ago more then this one here )
But with all the suggestions I fear I would lose again for me, my playstyle and my "skill".
As a medium PvP magSorc in NoCP, I lost in U33 because there was no real hybrid advantage for me and my build(s).
I tried all new possibilities - even using 2H or Bow and not my healing staff and so on.
But at the end I played like in U32 (but with a lower chance to proc my frags ) and all(?) the other classes got buffes because of hybrid.

Now in U34 I switched to crystal and I'm ok with the offensive power I got - but we know that will be gone in U35.

- I don't see the benefit for me if everything is based on shock dmg (even more if frag would get phys. dmg) - maybe I don't get the point?

- I don't know if my shield would be bigger if it would base on spell/wpn-dmg + Mag - I guess that would only depend on their formula and I don't know what formula they will use - maybe I get an even smaller shield in NoCP? (because we have to care more about reg and cannot stack so much dmg)
Even with most sets which give more dmg like "war maiden" "wrath of the imperium" or netch (if you get the shock dmg changes) wouldn't boost the shield size. So I don't see any benefit here as well. Is there something I miss?

- The only benefit in the discussion here - again just for me (I know I'm not the middle of the world) would be to get major Prophecy on an internal skill. But on flappy it wouldn't help me at all - that was just the Tannus PvE view (no offence at all - btw I liked your sorc parses threads)

So just to sum what I (yes egoistic view - I know ) like to see and what my problems are:
1) shield size (and duration) - I would welcome any increase and 2s longer on conjured and it morphs. (sure I take even more, but 2s is maybe a good starting point?)

2) because bar space is always a sorc problem I still miss a real class spammable to get rid of CS.
I would like if the cast time on standard frag would be removed. I don't know if that is to much to ask for, bc no other sorc is asking for that....?
Faster travel time would be great too - I agree on that.
I always like when chased (so they don't look at me) players always(!) exactly dodge when I cast frags
(btw different travel time between Fire-LA and Overload is something I don't like - but that's again possibly only me)

3) Finish the hybrid changes on potions/glyphes and skills/passives. That would help for sure everybody, but I want to mention how much this hurts me as a sorc.

4) And I like the idea of major Prophecy, because I would get the chance to get a free bar slot by removing mage light - but I'm not 100% sure I would realy do that with all the NBs in mind, which will be coming with U35?

These are my favorit points, but as I said multiple times - I only know my view - I don't know if that would be to much to ask for and I don't know if that would help other mag(!) Sorcs...?

MashmalloMan

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I like these ideas a lot. The only one I disagree with is Crystal Weapon. I enjoy the useful 1k unique armor debuff, it helps medium armor builds get to the PVE armor cap and often earns stam sorc a roster spot (which is not guaranteed now that Nightblade and Sorc crit buffs are largely redundant).

I also think that the total damage per cast of Crystal Weapon should be lower than a full Bound Armaments proc. The 4s cooldown and activation cast should result in a stronger attack than crystal weapon's 2s effective cooldown. On live it feels stupid that the meta is leaving Armaments stacks at 4 and ignoring the proc to continue alternating Crystal + DoT. The ~1.3 and ~1.4 scaling on PTS achieves this desired priority, but maybe something like 1.4 (CW) and 1.5 (BA) would be best. I just don't think CW should leapfrog over BA.

As a spammable CW's second hit on PTS at 30% doesn't make it very worth weaving with other abilities. They reduced the cost back to 2700 * 0.85 meaning it's equal in cost to every stam spammable at 2295 again. Instead of trying to weave it with other skills to get the most bang for your buck, you can really just spam it back to back again... except it's now 10% weaker than live and doesn't scale in damage for the ranks, so it ends up being much weaker than every other stam spammable available. The best use case will be to passively get the 30% by weaving regular skills instead of aiming for it and that seems redundant.

Example using ESO Skillbook Tooltips.
2091 CW (with 10% nerf)
2091 x 0.3 (second hit) = 870
= 2961 total damage (as a spammable getting 2 hits)

1161 Barbed Trap + 870 = 2031
718 x 2 Rending Slashes + 870 = 2306
1742 Whirling Blades + 870 = 2612

2760 Wrecking Blow + 870 = 3630
2300 Silver Shards + 870 = 3170

For non spammables, the value barely passes if at all for some. For spammables, adding 30% to a better spammable, while wasting a skill slot and time on a worse spammable makes any benefit you get from stacking them together, mute. You're better off using a completely different skill in place of CW like a dot.

2760 Wrecking Blow x 2 = 5520 (1 skill slot)
2961 CW + 2760 Wrecking Blow = 5721 (2 skill slots)
= 3% more damage for perfectly weaving CW

... and if you have the space for 2 spammables, why use CW when you can use Instant Frag and fire it off every 2-3 skills on average for 170% damage and less cost, at 130% CW doesn't make sense for the added effort. The only place using 2 spammables for CW works will be PVP burst scenario's, I can concede to that because Burst is King for pvp.

CW's 1k pen and -10% cost is the weakest secondary effect of any Stam Spammable and will go largely unnoticed. I would happily delete them both for what I suggested in the OP. They are inconsequential, abysmal.

The values you mentioned as 1.3 for CW and 1.4 for BA are slightly off, you need to check PTS. If I make CW the baseline of 100% + 30% for the 2 hits, BA actually does 165% and Haunting Curse does 136% + 136%. For CW, even if you made it 150% total between the 2 hits, it's still 15% less than BA and 22% less than an instant Frag.

The live values are not why BA isn't used, the way BA functions is why. BA is highly telegraphed. There is a giant purple banner above your head and the delay on the 0.3s between each dagger and minimum projectile travel time makes it the easiest skill to dodge in the game, the moment you see a Sorc with it, you're already on guard. The moment they fire 1 dagger, you're going to be able to dodge the entire thing. Thus, it's primary function is a buff skill for stamina/hp/light attack damage. If I was to add a more detailed post not related to PTS changes, I would entirely rework BA to fire all the daggers at the same time.

Either way, CW is underperforming as a direct spammable and doesn't perform well as it's pseudo delayed spammable version either. I think adding Sundered and the 4% ranking for damage would help give it a small boost of damage upfront, still meet ranged spammable standards, feel nice on a Stam Sorc for Identity and Debuff access, pull back the unanmed effect, while the second hit being bumped up a little would make it worth weaving again. Maybe not 50%, but 40%. That's really up to ZOS to figure out, it just fealt like 50% was the sweet spot. If it had Sundered and damage scaling, then 40% would work perfectly fine too.

That or completely rework CW again because this ain't cutting it.

MashmalloMan

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

The only changes I'd like to see this list are:

Crystal weapon - I'd like it to keep it's unique penetration buff

Bound armaments - rework the current ability to work kind of how Grim Focus used to work. For every light/heavy attack you increase a stat by like 1-3% per dagger summoned. (number can be interchangeable)
The stat I propose is critical chance. For every dagger summoned, you up your crit chance by either 2% or 3% again number is interchangeable, just brainstorming here

Right now sorcerer suffers from lack of healing and bound armaments functioning in such a way will help sorcerer maximize the healing you get ouf of Critical surge/Power surge. Both morphs benefit from the critical percent bonus and it helps sorcerer healers and solo sorcerers who are built into critical chance

Fully agree about Bound Armaments. I didn't feel adding large reworks was worth this type of post, but that was actually what I'd like to see it changed to.

1. Bound Armaments is no longer just a stam sorc tool, mag sorcs like it too. Swapping the stamina to a boost that helps both parties should be a priority.
2. Sorc is just as dependant as NB for Crit's in terms of identity, but also our healing potential. NBs have Crit Damage/Healing, Crit Chance passive, Guaranteed Crit from Stealth, Guaranteed Crit on a spammable, it's all over the place. So much of our heals are flat values that are only boosted by healing done or crit chance/healing, to which we only have access to minor prophecy. I think it would be thematically interesting to double down on that identity instead of whatever the hell max stam/mag is doing now.
3. Moving the passive increase to active is a main point for me in this post I think ZOS could change in a week, Bound Armaments is never double slotted anymore, it's very rare for any build to double slot passive skills like we use to in 2016. So a lot of the power behind the skill gets lost on our backbar where our heals happen to be. Other classes don't have this problem for similar skills that provide 300 damage as a buff, to both bars - NB, DK, Warden. Frankly, we're already asked to double bar pets, there is no space for double slotting BA.

jaws343

Shield scaling definitely needs to change in some way. They are pretty awful at the moment.

I also think that they need to go way back and revert Rune Cage to an instant stun, undodgeable and unblockable. Just remove the damage.

With the run cage change, change streak to not stun, but instead snare enemies in the path.

Sorc runs into the problem where their main form of defense is awful. Their main form of stun forces them into melee range, or worse, puts them on the other side of their opponent facing the wrong direction.

MashmalloMan

MetallicMonk wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

The only changes I'd like to see this list are:

Crystal weapon - I'd like it to keep it's unique penetration buff

Bound armaments - rework the current ability to work kind of how Grim Focus used to work. For every light/heavy attack you increase a stat by 1% per dagger summoned.
The stat I propose is critical chance. For every dagger summoned, you up your crit chance by either 1%

Right now sorcerer suffers from lack of healing and bound armaments functioning in such a way will help sorcerer maximize the healing you get ouf of Critical surge/Power surge. Both morphs benefit from the critical percent bonus and it helps sorcerer healers and solo sorcerers who are built into critical chance

Sorc needs way more help healing wise than just more crit surge procs lol

The day we can 1 bar pets that can't be killed is the only day we'll actually be able to compete in that way.. but that requires a complete rework that I don't think ZOS is capable of doing in 1 week, let alone in 8 years. Perhaps the shield scaling change could help, it would be worth testing first to see where Sorc's land instead of just ignoring the problem like they did with the hybrid changes... but here we are on a second combat overhaul after the first was never completed ><

JustAGoodPlayer

Making all abilitys lightning will increase your DPS by passive am i right ?
You ask buff sorcs DPS. It is now worst DD compared to others ? Why such changes have to be added ?

The same time you have unique skill silence and streak as example - you not say that it looks to overperforming compared to other classes unique skills - some of them even do not have skils that can be named unique. And i think they want some - do not you think so ?

Based on what you want such changes be added ?

About 150% sum spamable understandable - it will not be a bad change if 100%+50% damage and no def debuff that you do not need in PVE as example - but what will be total damage with such changes ?

Will not it be much more than other classes have ?

MashmalloMan

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Makung all abilitys lightning will increase your DPS by passive am i right.
You ask buff sorcs DPS. It is now worst DD compared to others ? Why such changes have to be added ?

The same time you have unique skill silence and streak as example - you not say that it looks to overperforming compared to other classes unique skills - some of them even do not skils that can be named unique.

Based on what you want such changes be added ?

Look. I know you just want to see Sorc's burn, but come on, actually read the post. Is 5% on a few skills really going to overload Sorc's when they should of been Shock to begin with?

I know you main DK, you just had all your skills changed to Fire damage. My post literally has barely anything to do with DPS because frankly, I really don't care about that as much as I do class identity. Sorc's Shock/Physical synergy within the kit is severly underwhelming as there is nothing to support the idea that we should be the best Physical/Shock class.

DK's get all their abilities as Fire/Poison. They get increased duration for their dots beyond standards. They get 50% burning/poisoned damage. They get resource return by applying those status effects.

Warden can chill targets constantly and gets 10% crit damage, 10% frost damage, a bunch of bleed skills. They need adjustments too, but they're much better off than Sorc's for their classes element synergy.

I don't care about PVE DPS dummy meta parsing, I care about what feels fun.

MashmalloMan

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

About 150% sum spamable understandable - it will not be a bad change if 100%+50% damage and no def debuff that you do not need in PVE as example - but what will be total damage with such changes ?

Will not it be much more than other classes have ?

Whip as an example in comparison does 115% damage, off balance, +60% burst, + 300 weapon/spell damage, Fire damage which happens to do more damage to Vampires and has the strongest status effect in the game, which DK also gets +50% to.

You do realise it's one of the best spammbles in the game right?

Yeah it's melee, but this is ESO we're talking about. Melee is not hard to close the gap on, it's also where the majority of DK's skills are used. You happen to have +2m ranged to Melee skills. I would happily give up Crystal Weapon being a ranged skill attached to annoying light/heavy attacks for a traditional, instant Melee spammable that happens to get 11% more damage by default.

Anyway, I think DK is perfectly fine with what it has and I'm not suggesting anything needs to change, all classes should have their tools feel interesting to use. It's just a great example of what a good skill feels like. Crystal Weapon for Sorc, Skulls for Necro, now Jabs for Templar, even Cliff Racer for Warden still feel underwhelming in comparison.

JustAGoodPlayer

For me it is not feels fun if some class have to a lot of DPS and other classes are not welcome based on just this. Or only for buff.
Whyle DPS is same like other classes have - i do not really even care.
But as for PVP Sorc and NB looks overperforming.

And I do not see a reason for that. By removing unique skills or adding it to other classes - is not really big different for me.

Adding good skills looks like some thing better, but - after nerfing of some our skilles it looks like when some ont get nerf looks like some thing fun too ?

I ... make mud and throw it for 3 patches !!! I want some thing really better than this !

The same time wings ? DK do not fly - do not return attacks - some attacks even ignore wings ! It is garbage !

The same time streak - fast move / anevoidable stun or protection for range attacks.

Seems like some thing really good do not you think ?

Better than throwing mud - do not you think so ? )

Mr_Stach

MashmalloMan wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Makung all abilitys lightning will increase your DPS by passive am i right.
You ask buff sorcs DPS. It is now worst DD compared to others ? Why such changes have to be added ?

The same time you have unique skill silence and streak as example - you not say that it looks to overperforming compared to other classes unique skills - some of them even do not skils that can be named unique.

Based on what you want such changes be added ?

Look. I know you just want to see Sorc's burn, but come on, actually read the post. Is 5% on a few skills really going to overload Sorc's when they should of been Shock to begin with?

I know you main DK, you just had all your skills changed to Fire damage. My post literally has barely anything to do with DPS because frankly, I really don't care about that as much as I do class identity. Sorc's Shock/Physical synergy within the kit is severly underwhelming as there is nothing to support the idea that we should be the best Physical/Shock class.

DK's get all their abilities as Fire/Poison. They get increased duration for their dots beyond standards. They get 50% burning/poisoned damage. They get resource return by applying those status effects.

Warden can chill targets constantly and gets 10% crit damage, 10% frost damage, a bunch of bleed skills. They need adjustments too, but they're much better off than Sorc's for their classes element synergy.

I don't care about PVE DPS dummy meta parsing, I care about what feels fun.

Some people see things like this but it really isn't. I think it's really important that every class gets their class Fantasy looked at and Improved, especially classes with Elemental Buffs, having Elemental Passives that only apply to one or two of your skills sucks while DKs get to have a cohesive passive kit that helps their Elemental Damage type which is now across all of their skill trees (which also happens to be the strongest elemental damage type) shine.

MashmalloMan

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

For me it is not feels fun if some class have to a lot of DPS and other classes are not welcome based on just this. Or only for buff.
Whyle DPS is same like other classes have - i do not really even care.
But as for PVP Sorc and NB looks overperforming.

And I do not see a reason for that. By removing unique skills or adding it to other classes - is not really big different for me.

Adding good skills looks like some thing better, but - after nerfing of some our skilles it looks like when some ont get nerf looks like some thing fun too ?

I ... make mud and throw it for 3 patches !!! I want some thing really better than this !

The same time wings ? DK do not fly - do not return attacks - some attacks even ignore wings ! It is garbage !

The same time streak - fast move / anevoidable stun or protection for range attacks.

Seems like some thing really good do not you think ?

Better than throwing mud - do not you think so ? )

I'm not sure I understand your argument.. every class needs adjustments, not just towards DPS, but towards class identity. You may not agree with me, but I'd say DK feels the most in line with what a Class should feel like, that doesn't mean I don't think they should receive improvements too. This is a Sorc post, so obviously I'm not talking about how I want DK's to change. Why would I here?

You treat any idea of class adjustment as some sort of war, when in reality, most of us play more than 1 class. My view is that of game design and concept because I've studied 3D Modeling and will be working within the game industry.

For starters, I also want DK's poop fist to be updated. I've been an avid supporter in discussions involving updating that skill to be better for Stam DK's because it's a mixed bag of a bunch of things no one wants. I was an avid supporter against the change to Combustion to 3s as it was a heavy handed nerf. Despite playing DK as a fraction of what I play on Sorc, I still have fun playing every class and want them to improve. I could care less about what meta says what class is the top DPS in pve 1 patch to the next because it's a rat race that constantly changes, as long as I can complete content, thats all I care about.

If you read my post you'll see most of the power adjustments I added were rather minor or coupled with giving things up. I think that is entirely fair.

Here is my proposed Poop Fist adjustment I made awhile back:

MashmalloMan

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Makung all abilitys lightning will increase your DPS by passive am i right.
You ask buff sorcs DPS. It is now worst DD compared to others ? Why such changes have to be added ?

The same time you have unique skill silence and streak as example - you not say that it looks to overperforming compared to other classes unique skills - some of them even do not skils that can be named unique.

Based on what you want such changes be added ?

Look. I know you just want to see Sorc's burn, but come on, actually read the post. Is 5% on a few skills really going to overload Sorc's when they should of been Shock to begin with?

I know you main DK, you just had all your skills changed to Fire damage. My post literally has barely anything to do with DPS because frankly, I really don't care about that as much as I do class identity. Sorc's Shock/Physical synergy within the kit is severly underwhelming as there is nothing to support the idea that we should be the best Physical/Shock class.

DK's get all their abilities as Fire/Poison. They get increased duration for their dots beyond standards. They get 50% burning/poisoned damage. They get resource return by applying those status effects.

Warden can chill targets constantly and gets 10% crit damage, 10% frost damage, a bunch of bleed skills. They need adjustments too, but they're much better off than Sorc's for their classes element synergy.

I don't care about PVE DPS dummy meta parsing, I care about what feels fun.

Some people see things like this but it really isn't. I think it's really important that every class gets their class Fantasy looked at and Improved, especially classes with Elemental Buffs, having Elemental Passives that only apply to one or two of your skills sucks while DKs get to have a cohesive passive kit that helps their Elemental Damage type which is now across all of their skill trees (which also happens to be the strongest elemental damage type) shine.

Amen brother

Class identity is more important than ever now that hybridization and standardization has come into play.

MetallicMonk

Daily reminder Magsorc needs help offensively and defensively to match classes like necro/plar/DK in PvP.

MashmalloMan

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Daily reminder Magsorc needs help offensively and defensively to match classes like necro/plar/DK in PvP.

I don't play mag sorc nearly as much as stam sorc in pvp, what would you suggest some of the problems are that could be fixed besides our double slotted killable burst heal and awful shield scaling?

I wish we had an easier time proccing Crit Surge. Over the past 2-3 years, crit chance has dropped, health and damage has increased, but it heals a flat value so no real benefit there. Crit Surge is just not as reliable as it once was because it's healing less of your total hp at a less reliable rate. To make it work, you need dots that tick once a second to once every half second and those aren't available outside of static aoe dots now.

Basically, this patch shows an unhidden nerf to our only class hot that can't be quantified by a spreadsheet and it's been gradually nerfed over the past few years with different changes to the game.

MetallicMonk

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I don't play mag sorc nearly as much as stam sorc in pvp, what would you suggest some of the problems are that could be fixed besides our double slotted killable burst heal and awful shield scaling?

I wish we had an easier time proccing Crit Surge. Over the past 2-3 years, crit chance has dropped, health and damage has increased, but it heals a flat value so no real benefit there. Crit Surge is just not as reliable as it once was because it's healing less of your total hp at a less reliable rate. To make it work, you need dots that tick once a second to once every half second and those aren't available outside of static aoe dots now.

Basically, this patch shows an unhidden nerf to our only class hot that can't be quantified by a spreadsheet and it's been gradually nerfed over the past few years with different changes to the game.

I would say change something defensively and something offensively and go from there, just keep tuning one thing at a time until it becomes a noticeably more playable/enjoyable class so you don't risk overtuning and then the inevitable overnerfing.

I really don't have a problem with crit surge or anything honestly, like you said defensively a better burst heal or shields being better would be something I'd more like to see. That with some sort of offensive buff since sorc damage isn't bad, it's just lower on average to meta classes and harder to secure, so whether that change is a slight passive change like I suggested or something else I'm not sure.

A small change on both of those fronts would be a good starting point to see how competitive sorc would be with the meta classes currently to see whether or not it would need more adjustments.

I will say that on both of these points magsorc is definitely lacking defensively much more than offensively.

CleymenZero

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Note: I wrote these as if they're patch notes for week 4, so weeks 1/3 are taken into context. While I think there is a lot more that should be changed like updating passives, morph choices being more interesting, healing accessibilty, double bar pets, or minor prophecy being hyrbidized.. these suggestions are within the scope of what I think can and should be done for update 35.

I understand the duration increases for Surge/BA may seem like a lot, but keep in mind, my focus here is Sorc. I fully believe ZOS's focus should of been to reduce buff management for skills like those across the board, not just Sorc or sticky dots which failed gloriously. I thought that was the entire purpose of Update 35's objective, to reduce buff management and how much time we spend looking at our bars.

Dark Magic:

• Negate Magic:
  • Suppression Field (morph):
    • This morph now deals Shock damage instead of Magic damage.

• Crystal Shard:
  • This ability and the Crystal Frag morph now deal Shock damage instead of Magic damage.
    • Crystal Weapon (morph):
      • Increases damage done by 1% each rank instead of penetration between 700 and 1000.
      • No longer reduces armor by a unique value of 1000, instead guarantees the Sundered Status Effect to help double down on Sorc's being the Physical/Shock masters of ESO.
      • The second hit now deals 50% damage of the first instead of 30%. When converting Melee Damage to Ranged Damage spammable standards, this results in 150% total damage instead of lives 222% damage.

• Encase:
  • Shattering Prison (morph):
    • This morph now deals Shock damage instead of Magic damage.

• Rune Prison:
  • Rune Cage (morph):
    • This morph now deals Shock damage instead of Magic damage.

• Daedric Mines:
  • This ability and morphs now deal Shock damage instead of Magic damage.

Daedric Summoning:

• Summon Storm Atronach:
  • This ability and morphs now last 20s up from 15s.

• Daedric Curse:
  • This ability and morphs now deal Shock damage instead of Magic damage.

• Conjured Ward:
  • This ability and morphs now scale based on weapon/spell damage and max stamina/magicka instead of just max magicka, but still capped by your max HP.

• Bound Armor:
  • This ability and the Bound Aegis morph no longer passively increases your Max Magicka.
  • This ability and the Bound Aegis morph now grant Max Magicka for 10 seconds after casting along with the Minor Protection.
    • Bound Aegis (morph):
      • The Minor Protection and Max Magicka now last for 20 seconds.
    • Bound Armaments (morph):
      • No longer passively increases your Light Attack Damage and Max Stamina.
      • Max Stamina now provided when any portion of the skill is active.
      • Increased the duration to 60s from 40s to decrease required buff management (purpose of update 35?).
      • Fully charged heavy attacks now grant 2 Daggers instead of 1 like its close cousin Grim Focus.
      • This ability can now be refreshed by reactivating when you don't have a target.
      • No longer reduces cost by 50% for reactivation.
      • For clarification, damage per hit is reduced by approximately 11% with weeks 1 and 3 combined.

Storm Calling:

• Lightning Form:
  • This ability and morphs tick every 1s instead of every 2s again. This was reverted to better support the idea of Lightning Form being a useful tool to proc Critical Surge in melee combat more consistently than similar skills like Blade Cloak.
  • This ability and morphs have their damage reduced by 50% to match reverted tick frequency.
    • Hurricane (morph):
      • Reduced damage scaling from 12% to 6% to match reverted tick frequency.

• Surge:
  • This ability and the Power Surge morph now last 30s instead of 33s (even numbers, yay!).
  • This ability and the Power Surge morph now heal for 2000 instead of 2550
    • Power Surge (morph):
      • Reduced the cooldown from 3s to 2s to better align with heal tick frequency.
    • Critical Surge (morph):
      • This morph now doubles in duration from 30s to 60s (purpose of update 35?).

• Lightning Splash:
  • Enemies that take damage from this ability and morphs now take up to 6% extra shock damage for 3 seconds based on your weapon/spell damage.

TLDR: One can dream right?

I would not want to live in that dream. Sry but the obsessions with the fact that Sorcs MUST deal shock dmg etc and a lot of other stuff is pure RP.

Sry you put so much effort into this. I think a lot of it is not enticing at all.

Rebuff crystal weapons and bound armaments, buff lightning flood and we're almost good. Simple.

Zabagad

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I don't play mag sorc nearly as much as stam sorc in pvp, what would you suggest some of the problems are that could be fixed besides our double slotted killable burst heal and awful shield scaling?

Usually I don't do that, but maybe you missed my comment #39?
I didn't understand that you were not reacting to it and gave me no answer and so on - but sure it's your time.
(I was a bit sad after I saw you were instead answering 3 or 4 times to the obvious troll - but it's your time )

My questions were honest - I'm not the right one to say my whishes are to much - or don't help enough (or only me).
So I was hoping for some input and views from other sorcs....
Comments from Metallic would be appreciated as well, as he seems to be nobody who wants to much
And I agree on the step by step approach - but something which helps directly from the beginning of u35 would be really nice.

MetallicMonk

CleymenZero wrote: »

I would not want to live in that dream. Sry but the obsessions with the fact that Sorcs MUST deal shock dmg etc and a lot of other stuff is pure RP.

Sry you put so much effort into this. I think a lot of it is not enticing at all.

Rebuff crystal weapons and bound armaments, buff lightning flood and we're almost good. Simple.

Crystal weapon was broken, and sounds like you only PvE if those are the only changes you need. Sorc class has been in an awful state in PvP for a long time now relying on broken/bugged sets or an overtuned ability like a crystal weapon to even be relevant compared to the extremely powerful meta classes.

Galarthor

Sorc damage needs to be changed the followign way:

1) buff burst damage
2) lower DoTs and spammable damage

Why?
B/c the burst is needed for PvP as Sorc toolkit is build around timing burst damage, but at the same time you don't want to increase DPS (too much) in PvE (which is focused alot around DoTs given their superior DPS values). At this point it would be really great / helpful if class identity was still a thing and people did not mainly use generic weapon skill abilities so classes could receive targeted buffs & nerfs without affecting the other classes.

ESO_Nightingale

I see no reason why magsorc's magic skills aren't shock.

MashmalloMan

CleymenZero wrote: »

I would not want to live in that dream. Sry but the obsessions with the fact that Sorcs MUST deal shock dmg etc and a lot of other stuff is pure RP.

If by RP, you mean playing a class that has some sort of semblence of logic within it's class power fantasy and design to the skills they use in an RPG, yes, that is entirely why it should be changed and I'm not sure why anyone would be against it. It's not so much an obsession, but a... "why not?"

It's not going to make or break the class, most of the remaining non Physical/Shock skills are Utility/CC related, but just like DK's we've asked since launch why some of our skills aren't the damage type we're suppose to be proficient in and in this update, that request was finally met with an answer for DK alone. I think that same mentality should apply to Warden and Sorc.

CleymenZero wrote: »

Sry you put so much effort into this. I think a lot of it is not enticing at all.

Rebuff crystal weapons and bound armaments, buff lightning flood and we're almost good. Simple.

Those 3 skills were the majority of my focus in the OP, anything else is just something I think should inevitably happen and/or could happen within 1 week of the PTS like the Shock damage, Shield Scaling or Buff Management changes. If I were to go into a longer list of what I wanted changed, it would include complete rehauls to some of the kit and be better suited for a different section of the forums.

Changing 3 skills is not the only problem, but it is mostly what they messed with on the PTS. My perspective is that of mostly PVP and Class Identity, not so much PVE DPS.

How would you change the skills you mentioned because I don't really think they need a ton in the way of raw damage for DPS sake, just some fine tuning. In the case of CW I'd take a complete rehaul at this point, but a small buff to their formula seems easier than anything I think they'd really listen to.

Anyway, I appreciate your opinion - it's rather impossible to please everyone on how a class should be designed, but I did feel what I suggested is minimal at best.

MashmalloMan

Zabagad wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I don't play mag sorc nearly as much as stam sorc in pvp, what would you suggest some of the problems are that could be fixed besides our double slotted killable burst heal and awful shield scaling?

Usually I don't do that, but maybe you missed my comment #39?
I didn't understand that you were not reacting to it and gave me no answer and so on - but sure it's your time.
(I was a bit sad after I saw you were instead answering 3 or 4 times to the obvious troll - but it's your time )

My questions were honest - I'm not the right one to say my whishes are to much - or don't help enough (or only me).
So I was hoping for some input and views from other sorcs....
Comments from Metallic would be appreciated as well, as he seems to be nobody who wants to much
And I agree on the step by step approach - but something which helps directly from the beginning of u35 would be really nice.

Tbh I read it and meant to reply, but it was the longest of the bunch so I didn't have the time.. at the time. Apologies.

Zabagad wrote: »

But with all the suggestions I fear I would lose again for me, my playstyle and my "skill".
As a medium PvP magSorc in NoCP, I lost in U33 because there was no real hybrid advantage for me and my build(s).

I tried all new possibilities - even using 2H or Bow and not my healing staff and so on.
But at the end I played like in U32 (but with a lower chance to proc my frags ) and all(?) the other classes got buffes because of hybrid.

Totally agree. The hybrid changes mostly buffed stam sorc's, not mag sorc's as much.. that's quite common for stam vs mag because stam didn't have much access to their class kits before. From the perspective of which class got the least benefit, I'd say sorc is probably at the top because our burst heal costs a killable pet and 2 bars. Every other build is running their class burst heal now, mag or stam, sorc is stuck making a decision on whether or not we can afford the space or if it's even worth it. Most of the time, it isn't.

Mag sorcs are capable of using Instant Frag with any skill type outside ultimates now, this would be considered a buff, the -2% nerf to your proc chance is quite negligible as our proc chance was always thought to be 1/3 which is technically 33.3%, not 35%.

Instant Frags can now proc off Bound Armaments, Barbed Trap, Resolving Vigor if you happen to pvp. It's a quality of life change I definitely wished for so I'm glad they added that. No punishment to the type of skills you use is a good thing and definitely worth the -2%.

Zabagad wrote: »

- I don't see the benefit for me if everything is based on shock dmg (even more if frag would get phys. dmg) - maybe I don't get the point?

I said this in a previous comment, but my perspective is not that of primarly PVE DPS to which this change wouldn't effect very much, but Class Identity and PVP. Changing skills to Physical/Shock damage is just a logical step in the direction of the class feeling unique, holistic, and as if it has some level of cohesiveness.

Sorc's already have a majority of their kit based on Physical/Shock, there is just a few outliers, we also have a passive for 5% Physical/Shock damage. In ESO's power fantasy, Physical damage is used for denoting "Air" or "Wind" magic as seen with our skill Hurricane and sets like Relequen, Shock obviously just Lightning magic.

Why they suggested Physical damage comes to the idea behind the skill being Crystal. It makes more sense that it would be Physical given the choice between Physical or Shock and how a crystal behaves in the real world. The status effects are pretty comparable so I wouldn't say that is the primary concern if I'm guessing.

If I were to go one step further, I think Sorc should have a unique passive introduced or reworked to play off of that idea like DK and Warden have. If you're not aware, DK's get 5% Poison/Flame damage, 50% Poisoned/Burning status effect damage and 1k stamina or magicka returned when those status effects are applied every 3s.

Warden's get +10% Frost/Magic damage, extra frost status effect chance in their skill tree and +10% crit damage/healing to Chilled targets. They also have a ton of bleeds, but ZOS has yet to introduce a Bleed specific passive to them.

It's just fun and interesting to build for. It makes classes stand out at being proficient with a specific thing in a game where we have 100s of skills to choose from, it's sort of necessary so not every class feels the same.

Zabagad wrote: »

- I don't know if my shield would be bigger if it would base on spell/wpn-dmg + Mag - I guess that would only depend on their formula and I don't know what formula they will use - maybe I get an even smaller shield in NoCP? (because we have to care more about reg and cannot stack so much dmg)
Even with most sets which give more dmg like "war maiden" "wrath of the imperium" or netch (if you get the shock dmg changes) wouldn't boost the shield size. So I don't see any benefit here as well. Is there something I miss?

Mag sorcs are pigeonholed into stacking max magicka to make their shields remotely viable. If you're not aware, the Resto Staff shield already scales like every other skill, copying your highest magicka or stamina AND your highest weapon damage or spell damage.

You would be able to still build with magicka if you wanted, everyone basically has 3-5k damage without trying right now so it wouldn't be a nerf to change the scaling.

Stacking resources is the weakest form of building your damage and for good reason, but it's weaker than it used to. If you do the math, typically every time you invest into magicka instead of damage on a set, you're getting 30% less towards your damage. In ESO's context today, everyone aims to get as minimal magicka or stamina as they can work with, then they stack everything else in weapon/spell damage and penetration. They are stats only based on damage boosts so they give the most towards your damage.

If we go back in time for a moment, with CP 1.0 we would get +20% magicka/stamina/hp. With races, we would get another 6-10% magicka if I remember correctly. That made stacking your max resources more viable when in comparison to damage, even then, it was still a nerf to your damage output, but the surviability and sustain made up for that. Today, we don't have that anymore and there has been no compensation so it's an uphill battle that has made that playstyle very underwhelming in comparison to whats possible today.

Damage stacking not only gives you more damage output, but it gives you much stronger heals.

The suggestion to shock damage has nothing to do with shields.

Zabagad wrote: »

- The only benefit in the discussion here - again just for me (I know I'm not the middle of the world) would be to get major Prophecy on an internal skill. But on flappy it wouldn't help me at all - that was just the Tannus PvE view (no offence at all - btw I liked your sorc parses threads)

I agree that it would be nice to have somewhere, but I wouldn't want it on pets either. In my opinion, it was a suggestion outside the scope of the purpose of my post which is meant to get in some quick, minor changes in for PTS week 5. Non pet sorc needs some love. It's at a point where stam sorc's are stuck using pets in PVE too now.

Zabagad wrote: »

So just to sum what I (yes egoistic view - I know ) like to see and what my problems are:
1) shield size (and duration) - I would welcome any increase and 2s longer on conjured and it morphs. (sure I take even more, but 2s is maybe a good starting point?)

2) because bar space is always a sorc problem I still miss a real class spammable to get rid of CS.
I would like if the cast time on standard frag would be removed. I don't know if that is to much to ask for, bc no other sorc is asking for that....?
Faster travel time would be great too - I agree on that.
I always like when chased (so they don't look at me) players always(!) exactly dodge when I cast frags
(btw different travel time between Fire-LA and Overload is something I don't like - but that's again possibly only me)

3) Finish the hybrid changes on potions/glyphes and skills/passives. That would help for sure everybody, but I want to mention how much this hurts me as a sorc.

4) And I like the idea of major Prophecy, because I would get the chance to get a free bar slot by removing mage light - but I'm not 100% sure I would realy do that with all the NBs in mind, which will be coming with U35?

1) I'm fine with the standard being 6 seconds because it parallels what shorter burst hots do at 5s. With the shield improvements I mentioned which would increase size, increasing duration any further would bring it to an unhealthy state we had near launch where shield stacking Sorc's esentially had double their health bars to break through before you even entered a fight with them. The shorter duration is in a place where you can use them proactively, but not for very long.

2) We've tried to get rid of the cast time on Crystal Frag for 8 years, it's only been lowered to 0.8s from what I think was 1.1s at one point? Frankly, I don't want to see it removed now because it would probably be coupled with removing the instant frag proc which makes it fun and unique to use.

I don't trust ZOS to redesign skills from the ground up anymore at this point.

Decreasing minimum travel time across all skills would be amazing, it's the entire reason they're so unreliable to use when coupled with how forgiving dodge rolling is. All projectile class spammables are basically never used in pvp at the high end, eg... Skulls and Cliff Racer which happen to be instant cast.

3) Hard, 100% agree. Very annoyed they started a second combat rework for U35 when they haven't finished the hybrid combat rework from U33 and U32, earlier this year. Sorc and NB don't have access to Major Prophecy/Savagery skills and pots don't give both so we're in an awkward place trying to make our Minor Prohecy/Savagery work. It's at a point where I had a PVP stam sorc using Mag Crit pots and it probably wasn't worth the stamina sustain loss it costed me, but I tried my best to do a workaround outside slotting Camo Hunter which I had no space for.

4) Yeah basically what I said for 3). To add to that, active versions of named buffs apply to your back bar, so you're missing an entire +12% Crit for where you probably keep the majority of your defensive kit. Crit heals are more important than people realize, especially important for sorcs where the majority of our class kit's healing is from flat heals that only boost from healing done or crit chance.

If you reply, maybe just @ me lol. This is too much to quote.

MetallicMonk

Buff Magsorc.