Lack of Class Identity

LeonAkando

This patch has been a massive step back in Class Identity, and the recent updates still do not fully address this.

Every single class is being boiled down to weapon abilities and shared abilities. Our class choice is effectively reduced down into what passives we get.
This has been a continual issue that every new player points out, every class feels the same and often even looks the same because they're using the same abilities. Update 35 is pushing this to the extremes.

It is no longer optimal for Stamsorcs to run Crystal Weapon (their dedicated spammable), bound armaments (a core flavor ability).
It's no longer optimal for Templars to use any version of Jabs.
Magicka Wardens receive so little benefit from Winter's Revenge.
Necromancer DOT damage was nerfed, despite being one of their primary identities.

Class abilities should be power creep over non-class abilities when the one-to-one is available.
I will use Mystic Orb, which has run the game for a while, as an example.
Mystic Orb is a general undaunted skill everyone can use. It is an AOE dot with a synergy to restore resources.
Blazing Spear is a templar ability that only templars can use. It is an AOE dot with a synergy to restore resources.

IF you are playing a Templar, Blazing Spear should always be the stronger choice. Mystic Orb should exist as an option for other classes who want that utility but it can't be quite as powerful as the Class that specializes in it.

People should be incentivized to use their class abilities over other options.
This also applies to prioritized damage types. The optimal Magden builds should not be fire mage + bear. They ARE the frost archetype. Frost damage should be better on them, and when running destruction staves, Frost should be their go to pick. The same goes for Magsorc, they should not be fire mage + daedra. They ARE the shock archetype. Lightning staves should be optimal on them.

These classes have so much potential to deliver a fun fantasy and unique aesthetic, but instead players will research the strongest set ups and be massively disappointed to see that their class choice has minimal to no effect on the style of their gameplay. It happens time and time again, and I urge ZOS to put forth an update with the intent of bringing power back to class abilities and optimizing classes to have unique identities.

CameraBeardThePirate

This is something huge that can't be understated. Zos often preaches "class identity" and flavor but at the end of the day, a huge chunk of class skills go completely unused in both PvP and PvE. Class skills like Skulls, Cliff Racer, Twisting Path, Blazing Spear, Swallow Soul, Stone Fist, and many, many more are either straight downgrades from other guild/weapon abilities or at most give very little benefit when compared to other options. Instead of drastically overhauling core combat mechanics every other patch, ZOS needs to look at unused class skills. You want data? Maybe look into the amount of skills that are untouched because of how lackluster they are. Changes like Resolving Vigor giving major resolve DO NOT give classes more identity. Most classes will drop their armor ability in PvP with this change. Homogenization needs to stop.

Arjuna1696

Big agree here. Cliff racer's stacking bleed is a little odd but it's at least powerful if you learn to use it right, and I've learned to quite like it. Neutering the warden and templar spammables doesn't make any sense to me. And flurry looks/feels ridiculous so I'm not keen to use that either

silentxthreat

this is really my main concern as well. I dont understand the massive nerfs to classes on top of light attack changes. Warden scorch just feels bad now. My templar would lose so much dps for using jabs, my dk is going to feel really bad in pvp, necros are going to flat out suck in pve

xylena_lazarow

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You want data? Maybe look into the amount of skills that are untouched because of how lackluster they are.

This bothers me too. They have class and skill usage statistics, right? There was a recent balance pass on underused morphs, though they seemed to miss the point that it's not the numbers on paper, it's that they're clunky, slow, unreliable, etc. Look at Ambush, which is arguably now overloaded, but still probably won't be used much because of the heinous cast delay.

Stx

I don't understand why it's so hard for zos to balance ability damage to make all spells viable... there will always be meta builds, but at the very least you could make sure all abilities are within 5 to 10% dps of each other.. but currently we have dots that literally deal 4 to 5 times the dps of other dots lol. You have passive pets that deal more dps than casted dots... you also have spammable abilities that deal 30 to 40% more damage than other spammables, or have very good secondary effects, while others have no secondary effects at all.

Then on top of that you have passives for slotting some abilities, and no passives for slotting others... it's all a mess.

In an ideal world, every ability would be within 5% dps of each other, so players could truly choose how they want to play. And every class would have unique mechanics on their spells. Spells like blastbones, shalks, backlash, grim focus, crystal fragments, storm atro, flames of oblivion, deep breath are all different in their own way, and fun to use in their own way.

boi_anachronism_

Frankly I main magblade, I took a slot in my armory to try out stamblade. On both sides the sheer amount of non-class abilities I end up using is staggering. Twisting path was a great dot and unique in the scheme of things. It was a mainstay on my bar. Post update I will definitely have to pull it in favor of more viable weapon or off-class dots. In addition to that with most classes utilizing off-class abilities it means that class passives themselves become a lot less important. Since class passives do not buff off-class abilities it makes everything even more homogeneous.

ToRelax

Stx wrote: »

I don't understand why it's so hard for zos to balance ability damage to make all spells viable... there will always be meta builds, but at the very least you could make sure all abilities are within 5 to 10% dps of each other.. but currently we have dots that literally deal 4 to 5 times the dps of other dots lol. You have passive pets that deal more dps than casted dots... you also have spammable abilities that deal 30 to 40% more damage than other spammables, or have very good secondary effects, while others have no secondary effects at all.

Then on top of that you have passives for slotting some abilities, and no passives for slotting others... it's all a mess.

In an ideal world, every ability would be within 5% dps of each other, so players could truly choose how they want to play. And every class would have unique mechanics on their spells. Spells like blastbones, shalks, backlash, grim focus, crystal fragments, storm atro, flames of oblivion, deep breath are all different in their own way, and fun to use in their own way.

Attempting to fully equalize the damage between abilities of similar types is one of the main culprits of every class feeling similar. If two abilities each have two effects, and then you make sure that one of them (such as base damage) is always the exact same, you'll only have one effect left that can decide which one gets used. And if the one fitting the current meta better happens to be available to everyone, that's one class skill less on most people's bars.

Jazraena

I disagree that class abilities should be the optimal choice in every situation. The class power fantasy concepts are too special and niche for that, and the approach runs contrary to the 'Play As You Want' Mantra.

I do, however, believe that either should be viable. Horizontal alternatives over clear winners.

Stx

ToRelax wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I don't understand why it's so hard for zos to balance ability damage to make all spells viable... there will always be meta builds, but at the very least you could make sure all abilities are within 5 to 10% dps of each other.. but currently we have dots that literally deal 4 to 5 times the dps of other dots lol. You have passive pets that deal more dps than casted dots... you also have spammable abilities that deal 30 to 40% more damage than other spammables, or have very good secondary effects, while others have no secondary effects at all.

Then on top of that you have passives for slotting some abilities, and no passives for slotting others... it's all a mess.

In an ideal world, every ability would be within 5% dps of each other, so players could truly choose how they want to play. And every class would have unique mechanics on their spells. Spells like blastbones, shalks, backlash, grim focus, crystal fragments, storm atro, flames of oblivion, deep breath are all different in their own way, and fun to use in their own way.

Attempting to fully equalize the damage between abilities of similar types is one of the main culprits of every class feeling similar. If two abilities each have two effects, and then you make sure that one of them (such as base damage) is always the exact same, you'll only have one effect left that can decide which one gets used. And if the one fitting the current meta better happens to be available to everyone, that's one class skill less on most people's bars.

I disagree. You can equalize dps on abilities without them feeling similar in the slightest. One example off the top of my head is twilight tormentor and haunting curse... they deal similar dps but are nothing alike at all. So a player who enjoys pets or passive dots could choose the tormentor, but I think curse is super fun, so I could choose curse, and my dps wouldn't suffer. I'm not saying abilities should all deal identical dps, secondary effects and utility functions should matter, but the dps of all abilities should be similar in order to truly let players play how they want.

kindnuguz

LeonAkando very good point and I agree.
Too bad the direction the game has been going for a while it might as well be CS or Fortnite or any other game that has power levels all the same when playing against other players. Having power levels all do the same seems to be the direction of choice.

But hard agree with LeonAkando

ToRelax

Stx wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I don't understand why it's so hard for zos to balance ability damage to make all spells viable... there will always be meta builds, but at the very least you could make sure all abilities are within 5 to 10% dps of each other.. but currently we have dots that literally deal 4 to 5 times the dps of other dots lol. You have passive pets that deal more dps than casted dots... you also have spammable abilities that deal 30 to 40% more damage than other spammables, or have very good secondary effects, while others have no secondary effects at all.

Then on top of that you have passives for slotting some abilities, and no passives for slotting others... it's all a mess.

In an ideal world, every ability would be within 5% dps of each other, so players could truly choose how they want to play. And every class would have unique mechanics on their spells. Spells like blastbones, shalks, backlash, grim focus, crystal fragments, storm atro, flames of oblivion, deep breath are all different in their own way, and fun to use in their own way.

Attempting to fully equalize the damage between abilities of similar types is one of the main culprits of every class feeling similar. If two abilities each have two effects, and then you make sure that one of them (such as base damage) is always the exact same, you'll only have one effect left that can decide which one gets used. And if the one fitting the current meta better happens to be available to everyone, that's one class skill less on most people's bars.

I disagree. You can equalize dps on abilities without them feeling similar in the slightest. One example off the top of my head is twilight tormentor and haunting curse... they deal similar dps but are nothing alike at all. So a player who enjoys pets or passive dots could choose the tormentor, but I think curse is super fun, so I could choose curse, and my dps wouldn't suffer. I'm not saying abilities should all deal identical dps, secondary effects and utility functions should matter, but the dps of all abilities should be similar in order to truly let players play how they want.

That's an odd example, given Curse and Twilight are very different kinds of damage abilites with no secondary effects. It's great when you are given a choice still when it somehow doesn't matter otherwise whether you use a pet or a delayed burst, but that really isn't what I was talking about.

A better example would be Entropy and Soul Trap dealing similar damage. Both ranged sticky DoTs. Entropy has better secondary effects. So people choose Entropy over Soul Trap. The end. Had Soul Trap provided more base damage, there would have been an actual decision to made.

Abilities like Lighting Form and Resolving Vigor are given secondary effects which are equal in power to primary sources of them (DoT and Armor buff, respectively), every now and then leading to one getting hilariously overloaded and subsequently losing it's previous effects - see Destructive Reach or now Veiled Strike. There would have been be no reason for any of this if skills were simply allowed to have different degrees to their effects.

ESO_Nightingale

We've been saying we want more frost dps representation for years. Class identity is something that's been crippled by the nearly constant hybridization and standardisation that's been happening for the past few years now.

Firstmep

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We've been saying we want more frost dps representation for years. Class identity is something that's been crippled by the nearly constant hybridization and standardisation that's been happening for the past few years now.

Tell me about it.
On stamplar I now run more magicka than stamina skills, and it really just feels like, why am i even stam at this point.
Theres literally nothing setting aside mag and stamplar, most ppl even run the same weapon setup dw/resto cuz that's what's best.

Stx

The homogenization changes killed stamplar. It really shined a light on how much worse the stamplar kit is compared to magplar.

Jazraena

An overnerf is not a homogenization problem, tbh.

Just... Ye Olde Sledgehammer Approach.

Mr_Stach

I think it's weird, the defense against Class Identity is "Play how you want?" Ok, I can appreciate that but let's look at the roles, you don't play Dual-wielder or Mage, or Bowman. Psijic Defender? Nope. You play a Warden or a Sorcerer, Templar, a Dragonknight, a Nightblade or a Necromancer.

Your Class is PRIMARY

Universal skills are SUPPLEMENTARY

This does not mean the Universal skill lines are unimportant, but are used to supplement your build.

But what does all that mean? It's simple, in a 1 to 1 comparison, Class Skills and Passives should be more impactful than Universal Skills. Now since 1 to 1 Bubble Comparisons aren't a healthy way to balance things on a whole there's a lot of things to consider as well, a lot of those things I won't even pretend to understand. But Flurry really shouldn't outperform Jabs, or any Class Spammable. Wardens should want to use Birds (we don't by the way...... like from my own sampling of the warden community), I think that you should be able to slap a Class Skill on your bar and see a use for it, there are skills and morphs that just don't have a use.

Zos, please do not Hybridize classes out of existence. The uniqueness of classes is why I personally like ESO.

Dragonknight is a class that just has it when it comes to Class Identity, and it shows when you play because you want to fit as many DK skills onto your bar because they just work so well together.

That's what the other classes deserve.

p.s. Let Sorcs and Wardens be cool with their Elements too..... Like I will give my Magic Damage to Templars or Nighblades, they can have it. Just let me be a Frosty Dude.

Billium813

LeonAkando wrote: »

Class abilities should be power creep over non-class abilities when the one-to-one is available.
I will use Mystic Orb, which has run the game for a while, as an example.
Mystic Orb is a general undaunted skill everyone can use. It is an AOE dot with a synergy to restore resources.
Blazing Spear is a templar ability that only templars can use. It is an AOE dot with a synergy to restore resources.

IF you are playing a Templar, Blazing Spear should always be the stronger choice. Mystic Orb should exist as an option for other classes who want that utility but it can't be quite as powerful as the Class that specializes in it.

I can't agree more. I like the idea that classes have niche skills that are ALWAYS better than the generic alternatives available in other skill lines. This example is a good one, but to play devil's advocate, it'd be almost impossible to line up 1:1 examples for all class skills.

The problem I think we get is that ESO has become such a "play anyway you want" kind of game that all class builds seem to be catered to. If we make all class skills arguable better than their generic skill counterparts (guilds/weapons/ect), I think we HAVE to balance that out by making some classes more niche than others.

For instance, maybe Templar is just the better Healer and Nightblade is just the better DPS. Templar CAN still be DPS with weapon skills, that option is still available to them! But we as a community would then have to acknowledge that the DPS skills available to Templar ARE WORSE than the DPS skills available to, say, Nightblade. Templar may have better group healing and resource regen over other classes, but WILL BE WORSE than Nightblades or DK for other roles.
The reason it HAS to be this way is because you cannot give all classes access to all the roles AND simultaneously make that stuff better than the generic alternatives! It would not be healthy for the game for skill bars to be always loaded with class skills because they are always the best.

Jeezye

As a magblade PvP main I 100% agree. There's just way too many skills right now that are "preset" on your bars. Momentum, camo hunter, vigor, rapid Regen, reverse slice, whirling blades, …

Every pvp build plays the same *** setup

Jazraena

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think it's weird, the defense against Class Identity is "Play how you want?" Ok, I can appreciate that but let's look at the roles, you don't play Dual-wielder or Mage, or Bowman. Psijic Defender? Nope. You play a Warden or a Sorcerer, Templar, a Dragonknight, a Nightblade or a Necromancer.

Your Class is PRIMARY

Universal skills are SUPPLEMENTARY

This does not mean the Universal skill lines are unimportant, but are used to supplement your build.

But what does all that mean? It's simple, in a 1 to 1 comparison, Class Skills and Passives should be more impactful than Universal Skills. Now since 1 to 1 Bubble Comparisons aren't a healthy way to balance things on a whole there's a lot of things to consider as well, a lot of those things I won't even pretend to understand. But Flurry really shouldn't outperform Jabs, or any Class Spammable. Wardens should want to use Birds (we don't by the way...... like from my own sampling of the warden community), I think that you should be able to slap a Class Skill on your bar and see a use for it, there are skills and morphs that just don't have a use.

Zos, please do not Hybridize classes out of existence. The uniqueness of classes is why I personally like ESO.

Dragonknight is a class that just has it when it comes to Class Identity, and it shows when you play because you want to fit as many DK skills onto your bar because they just work so well together.

That's what the other classes deserve.

p.s. Let Sorcs and Wardens be cool with their Elements too..... Like I will give my Magic Damage to Templars or Nighblades, they can have it. Just let me be a Frosty Dude.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be under the impression that I have some sort of principle issue with classes. I don't. You could make a TES game with clearly separated classes, giving a strong class identity to each.

But ESO is not that game, and never will be. For one because of ZOS trying (and often failing) to sell people on 'Play As You Want', and for the other simply through their choice of classes that are extremely niche, specific, and often equipped with only a tenuous grasp to TES lore at best.

Many, possibly most people drawn to TES or to fantasy in general are not going to go 'OMG I want to play a Dragon Knight' or 'OMG I want to play a guy that combines mushrooms, frost magic and... what even are these animals?'

The result is that to many people these classes are just tools to get close to the power fantasy they're actually after, which may be as simple as 'Fire Mage', but not some Akaviri Martial/Magical Arts Mix even the Mage's Guild finds wacky. And that desire is diametrically opposed to your desire of putting classes first, leaving ZOS with the unenviable task to find compromise in-between.

So yes, given that, there is absolutely no grounds for outright shoehorning people into class corsets by making class abilities the superior choice all the time. But it most definitely can't be that they're the bad choice either. Variants, secondary effects, and multiple viable choices can be the only way to go unless ESO changes absolutely elementary parts of the game by now.

Jeezye

Jazraena wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think it's weird, the defense against Class Identity is "Play how you want?" Ok, I can appreciate that but let's look at the roles, you don't play Dual-wielder or Mage, or Bowman. Psijic Defender? Nope. You play a Warden or a Sorcerer, Templar, a Dragonknight, a Nightblade or a Necromancer.

Your Class is PRIMARY

Universal skills are SUPPLEMENTARY

This does not mean the Universal skill lines are unimportant, but are used to supplement your build.

But what does all that mean? It's simple, in a 1 to 1 comparison, Class Skills and Passives should be more impactful than Universal Skills. Now since 1 to 1 Bubble Comparisons aren't a healthy way to balance things on a whole there's a lot of things to consider as well, a lot of those things I won't even pretend to understand. But Flurry really shouldn't outperform Jabs, or any Class Spammable. Wardens should want to use Birds (we don't by the way...... like from my own sampling of the warden community), I think that you should be able to slap a Class Skill on your bar and see a use for it, there are skills and morphs that just don't have a use.

Zos, please do not Hybridize classes out of existence. The uniqueness of classes is why I personally like ESO.

Dragonknight is a class that just has it when it comes to Class Identity, and it shows when you play because you want to fit as many DK skills onto your bar because they just work so well together.

That's what the other classes deserve.

p.s. Let Sorcs and Wardens be cool with their Elements too..... Like I will give my Magic Damage to Templars or Nighblades, they can have it. Just let me be a Frosty Dude.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be under the impression that I have some sort of principle issue with classes. I don't. You could make a TES game with clearly separated classes, giving a strong class identity to each.

But ESO is not that game, and never will be. For one because of ZOS trying (and often failing) to sell people on 'Play As You Want', and for the other simply through their choice of classes that are extremely niche, specific, and often equipped with only a tenuous grasp to TES lore at best.

Many, possibly most people drawn to TES or to fantasy in general are not going to go 'OMG I want to play a Dragon Knight' or 'OMG I want to play a guy that combines mushrooms, frost magic and... what even are these animals?'

The result is that to many people these classes are just tools to get close to the power fantasy they're actually after, which may be as simple as 'Fire Mage', but not some Akaviri Martial/Magical Arts Mix even the Mage's Guild finds wacky. And that desire is diametrically opposed to your desire of putting classes first, leaving ZOS with the unenviable task to find compromise in-between.

So yes, given that, there is absolutely no grounds for outright shoehorning people into class corsets by making class abilities the superior choice all the time. But it most definitely can't be that they're the bad choice either. Variants, secondary effects, and multiple viable choices can be the only way to go unless ESO changes absolutely elementary parts of the game by now.

Actually you understood it wrong. It’s not about power. It’s about diversity. A class skill is the default option for any new player and build.
Weapon choices should complement or tweak your gameplay to the style you desire. It’s okay to run rapid strikes as a Templar if you’re after a stamina spammable with heal, or because you want to combine it with maelstrom dots. It’s your choice, but it’s the secondary effects that should differentiate skills, not pure power or damage

Didgerion

LeonAkando wrote: »

This patch has been a massive step back in Class Identity, and the recent updates still do not fully address this.

Every single class is being boiled down to weapon abilities and shared abilities. Our class choice is effectively reduced down into what passives we get.
This has been a continual issue that every new player points out, every class feels the same and often even looks the same because they're using the same abilities. Update 35 is pushing this to the extremes.

It is no longer optimal for Stamsorcs to run Crystal Weapon (their dedicated spammable), bound armaments (a core flavor ability).
It's no longer optimal for Templars to use any version of Jabs.
Magicka Wardens receive so little benefit from Winter's Revenge.
Necromancer DOT damage was nerfed, despite being one of their primary identities.

Class abilities should be power creep over non-class abilities when the one-to-one is available.
I will use Mystic Orb, which has run the game for a while, as an example.
Mystic Orb is a general undaunted skill everyone can use. It is an AOE dot with a synergy to restore resources.
Blazing Spear is a templar ability that only templars can use. It is an AOE dot with a synergy to restore resources.

IF you are playing a Templar, Blazing Spear should always be the stronger choice. Mystic Orb should exist as an option for other classes who want that utility but it can't be quite as powerful as the Class that specializes in it.

People should be incentivized to use their class abilities over other options.
This also applies to prioritized damage types. The optimal Magden builds should not be fire mage + bear. They ARE the frost archetype. Frost damage should be better on them, and when running destruction staves, Frost should be their go to pick. The same goes for Magsorc, they should not be fire mage + daedra. They ARE the shock archetype. Lightning staves should be optimal on them.

These classes have so much potential to deliver a fun fantasy and unique aesthetic, but instead players will research the strongest set ups and be massively disappointed to see that their class choice has minimal to no effect on the style of their gameplay. It happens time and time again, and I urge ZOS to put forth an update with the intent of bringing power back to class abilities and optimizing classes to have unique identities.

Class identity does not go well with the balancing.
As soon as one class starts to overperfom in one area the community is all on top of it for the nerfs!.

Look at the 140k DPS that stamsorc was able to parse on the dummy! They finally got an identity! But it received a backlash from the community and a nerf from ZOS, and stamsorc is back at the square one without an identity.

I still believe that the class system was a mistake, every time zos tries to balance a class they take away from its identity.
It should have been skill lines only from the beginning! it would have been easy to balance, and all players would have access to the same tools.

Jazraena

Jeezye wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think it's weird, the defense against Class Identity is "Play how you want?" Ok, I can appreciate that but let's look at the roles, you don't play Dual-wielder or Mage, or Bowman. Psijic Defender? Nope. You play a Warden or a Sorcerer, Templar, a Dragonknight, a Nightblade or a Necromancer.

Your Class is PRIMARY

Universal skills are SUPPLEMENTARY

This does not mean the Universal skill lines are unimportant, but are used to supplement your build.

But what does all that mean? It's simple, in a 1 to 1 comparison, Class Skills and Passives should be more impactful than Universal Skills. Now since 1 to 1 Bubble Comparisons aren't a healthy way to balance things on a whole there's a lot of things to consider as well, a lot of those things I won't even pretend to understand. But Flurry really shouldn't outperform Jabs, or any Class Spammable. Wardens should want to use Birds (we don't by the way...... like from my own sampling of the warden community), I think that you should be able to slap a Class Skill on your bar and see a use for it, there are skills and morphs that just don't have a use.

Zos, please do not Hybridize classes out of existence. The uniqueness of classes is why I personally like ESO.

Dragonknight is a class that just has it when it comes to Class Identity, and it shows when you play because you want to fit as many DK skills onto your bar because they just work so well together.

That's what the other classes deserve.

p.s. Let Sorcs and Wardens be cool with their Elements too..... Like I will give my Magic Damage to Templars or Nighblades, they can have it. Just let me be a Frosty Dude.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be under the impression that I have some sort of principle issue with classes. I don't. You could make a TES game with clearly separated classes, giving a strong class identity to each.

But ESO is not that game, and never will be. For one because of ZOS trying (and often failing) to sell people on 'Play As You Want', and for the other simply through their choice of classes that are extremely niche, specific, and often equipped with only a tenuous grasp to TES lore at best.

Many, possibly most people drawn to TES or to fantasy in general are not going to go 'OMG I want to play a Dragon Knight' or 'OMG I want to play a guy that combines mushrooms, frost magic and... what even are these animals?'

The result is that to many people these classes are just tools to get close to the power fantasy they're actually after, which may be as simple as 'Fire Mage', but not some Akaviri Martial/Magical Arts Mix even the Mage's Guild finds wacky. And that desire is diametrically opposed to your desire of putting classes first, leaving ZOS with the unenviable task to find compromise in-between.

So yes, given that, there is absolutely no grounds for outright shoehorning people into class corsets by making class abilities the superior choice all the time. But it most definitely can't be that they're the bad choice either. Variants, secondary effects, and multiple viable choices can be the only way to go unless ESO changes absolutely elementary parts of the game by now.

Actually you understood it wrong. It’s not about power. It’s about diversity. A class skill is the default option for any new player and build.
Weapon choices should complement or tweak your gameplay to the style you desire. It’s okay to run rapid strikes as a Templar if you’re after a stamina spammable with heal, or because you want to combine it with maelstrom dots. It’s your choice, but it’s the secondary effects that should differentiate skills, not pure power or damage

I'm going by what has been said in the thread, which absolutely has been about power. I'm very much saying diversity is the way to go.

But presuming class skill as default is a dangerous assumption. Otherwise I pretty much agree with the secondary effects to differentiate.

Galarthor

Class identity is dead. With every update ZOS is increasing homogenization.

I suspect the main reason is to make their lives easier. After all, if all the skills are the same just with different animations balancing skills becomes so much easier. And they hide their true motivation behind the excuse of "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor". If the game in has been so difficult for the past years, why did ZOS leave us hanging for so long? Why, for example, did it take ZOS so many years to realize that the game is supposedly too difficult for anybody but high-end players? There are only 3 explanations: (1) incompetence, (2) indifference in the past, or (3) it's just an excuse. Whichever it is, it is not good for us or the game.

Unfortunately, with their current mindset / approach ZOS makes the game more bland with each update

ccfeeling

Zos cannot make class skills too good.

Other classes must complain.

See Surprise attack?

MindOfTheSwarm

Stx wrote: »

I don't understand why it's so hard for zos to balance ability damage to make all spells viable... there will always be meta builds, but at the very least you could make sure all abilities are within 5 to 10% dps of each other.. but currently we have dots that literally deal 4 to 5 times the dps of other dots lol. You have passive pets that deal more dps than casted dots... you also have spammable abilities that deal 30 to 40% more damage than other spammables, or have very good secondary effects, while others have no secondary effects at all.

Then on top of that you have passives for slotting some abilities, and no passives for slotting others... it's all a mess.

In an ideal world, every ability would be within 5% dps of each other, so players could truly choose how they want to play. And every class would have unique mechanics on their spells. Spells like blastbones, shalks, backlash, grim focus, crystal fragments, storm atro, flames of oblivion, deep breath are all different in their own way, and fun to use in their own way.

This is the exact thing the OP is complaining about. You’re suggestion is what the op is arguing against.

Wyrd88

Class identity? What?

Lol I just can't stop posting this picture everywhere, cause it's a perfect representation of current state of this identity.

Faulgor

Sorry to say, but classes have always sucked in ESO. None of them have ever had what deserves to be called an identity.

Using a purple, gold or red DOT can't obscure the fact that the fundamental gameplay of "apply DOTs, spam spammable, light attack between, repeat" is always the same, and is the actual reason why all classes feel the same: Because they are.
Changing Mystic Orb for Blazing Spear will do nothing to change this.

Sure, there is some flavor in utility skills that are mainly noteworthy in PVP, like Cloak and Streak. But for PVE, there's barely a difference, because players want a) balance and b) a "fast paced" light attack weaving playstyle.

Me? I'd rather have a diversity in builds and playstyles than classes. Classes were IMO a mistake from day 1.

Jazraena wrote: »

Many, possibly most people drawn to TES or to fantasy in general are not going to go 'OMG I want to play a Dragon Knight' or 'OMG I want to play a guy that combines mushrooms, frost magic and... what even are these animals?'

The result is that to many people these classes are just tools to get close to the power fantasy they're actually after, which may be as simple as 'Fire Mage', but not some Akaviri Martial/Magical Arts Mix even the Mage's Guild finds wacky. And that desire is diametrically opposed to your desire of putting classes first, leaving ZOS with the unenviable task to find compromise in-between.

So yes, given that, there is absolutely no grounds for outright shoehorning people into class corsets by making class abilities the superior choice all the time. But it most definitely can't be that they're the bad choice either. Variants, secondary effects, and multiple viable choices can be the only way to go unless ESO changes absolutely elementary parts of the game by now.

^ This.

Urvoth

The hybridization changes were completely the wrong direction to take the game, both from a class identity perspective and for RPG/lore reasons. If ZOS wanted to enable access for more hybrid builds, they should've added a new hybrid weapon line that MADE SENSE to be hybrid, like a 1 hand and rune or spellsword type skill line. Now this next patch is only going to make things worse.

LeonAkando

Urvoth wrote: »

The hybridization changes were completely the wrong direction to take the game, both from a class identity perspective and for RPG/lore reasons. If ZOS wanted to enable access for more hybrid builds, they should've added a new hybrid weapon line that MADE SENSE to be hybrid, like a 1 hand and rune or spellsword type skill line. Now this next patch is only going to make things worse.

The way hybridization has been handled so far has hurt a bit of class identity, but the concept itself is not harmful. For example, being a stamina build should not mean having an unused resource (magicka) in this case. It makes sense for roleplay and in game mechanics to incorporate some hybrid aspects.
A warrior sorceror (basically stamsorc) would still have the capacity to throw out the occasional powerful spell using their limited magicka pool or some form of dark healing to sustain themselves in battle.

xylena_lazarow

ccfeeling wrote: »

See Surprise attack?

They nerfed Templar Jabs into the ground apparently because they didn't want the class defined by spamming it, so I guess after 3 months of NB being nothing but Surprise spam, expect the same for them in u36.