Not only Nocturnal, Anyone looked at Mara’s Balm?

Lughlongarm

Mara’s Balm – Heavy
2 – Adds 1487 Armor
3 – Adds 424 Critical Resistance
4 – Adds 4% Healing Taken
5 – When a negative effect is removed from you, restore 2111 Health. When you take damage and have 6 or more negative effects, cleanse all negative effects. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

This set healing output is disgusting, probably the best in the game.
Its like "Robes of the Hist" on steroids+ Wyrd Tree's Blessing+ Eternal Warrior, backed together.
On a templar this set is a free "Breath of Life" every time you use "Extended Ritual".

This is what I see sweaty players on PTS using ATM, not Nocturnal.

Casdha

It has been a while since I've worried about the intricacies of how some things work but this makes me want to ask the question,

Do characters still get a cool down before another negative affect can be applied? If so, what is it? Does it apply to PvP?

On the surface, this seems like another set that could be used for building unkillable tanks in PvP

VixxVexx

They haven't learned from Undertaker and Savage Werewolf. Not putting a cooldown on a set is generally a bad idea and can lead to stuff proccing multiple times per second.

Just put a 1-2 second cooldown on the first part of the set.

An example from Decimus' stream:

Firstmep

Yeah I've noticed. But most of the focus is on balance changes, so this going live for sure.
Tbh I don't 100% mind, it's a big middle finger to all the maarselok sweatlords out there xD.

seventyfive

That's amazing for classes that have a resource effective cleanse. Not all classes do unfortunately, half of them not at all if I remember correctly. Purge and its morphs are only resource effective for coordinated groups.


Truly an average burst heal ability of 10k health worth 3-4k magicka baked into that Templar ability with this set.
If we look at it the other way, it turns into a slightly more expensive burst heal with a "small" bonus:
You're eternally immune to all dots and debuffs for the cost of losing another 5 piece bonus and spending a few hundred extra magicka on said "heal". Sold!

The funny part? So far I haven't even mentioned the actual cleanse baked into the set for free every 15 seconds.

FrankonPC

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Mara’s Balm – Heavy
2 – Adds 1487 Armor
3 – Adds 424 Critical Resistance
4 – Adds 4% Healing Taken
5 – When a negative effect is removed from you, restore 2111 Health. When you take damage and have 6 or more negative effects, cleanse all negative effects. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

This set healing output is disgusting, probably the best in the game.
Its like "Robes of the Hist" on steroids+ Wyrd Tree's Blessing+ Eternal Warrior, backed together.
On a templar this set is a free "Breath of Life" every time you use "Extended Ritual".

This is what I see sweaty players on PTS using ATM, not Nocturnal.

I need to do more testing on it but it looks like it's hist sap combined with prime crimson. The hot stacked w the burst heal seems pretty insane tbh, especially outnumbered

Sandman929

Looks pretty strong, but offensively ridiculous always gets more headlines than defensively ridiculous and we can barely ever get ZOS to pay attention to either.

jaws343

The problem with the set is that it is going to cause players to blow themselves and their teams up when it autopurges Plaguebreak.

Sets/Skills that autopurge are just not desirable as long as Plaguebreak exists.

TechMaybeHic

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem with the set is that it is going to cause players to blow themselves and their teams up when it autopurges Plaguebreak.

Sets/Skills that autopurge are just not desirable as long as Plaguebreak exists.

Yeah; I was just going to say. If PB is still being run, this will be countered. If it becomes common, PB will be run

Firstmep

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem with the set is that it is going to cause players to blow themselves and their teams up when it autopurges Plaguebreak.

Sets/Skills that autopurge are just not desirable as long as Plaguebreak exists.

Yeah; I was just going to say. If PB is still being run, this will be countered. If it becomes common, PB will be run

Pb is really only an issue for larger groups tbh, and those grps typically already have dedicated purgers anyway.

Lughlongarm

Firstmep wrote: »

Yeah I've noticed. But most of the focus is on balance changes, so this going live for sure.
Tbh I don't 100% mind, it's a big middle finger to all the maarselok sweatlords out there xD.

Even with 2 sec on the heal

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem with the set is that it is going to cause players to blow themselves and their teams up when it autopurges Plaguebreak.

Sets/Skills that autopurge are just not desirable as long as Plaguebreak exists.

Yeah; I was just going to say. If PB is still being run, this will be countered. If it becomes common, PB will be run

Pfff, its not even close, what's the burst damage on Plaguebreak ATM? Its got a 20 sec CD now. Mara’s Balm proc will heal for 13K every 15 sec while also healing you for~ 2.1k every sec. And this under regular conditions. Templar running this outnumbered will have insane healing output.

TechMaybeHic

Firstmep wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem with the set is that it is going to cause players to blow themselves and their teams up when it autopurges Plaguebreak.

Sets/Skills that autopurge are just not desirable as long as Plaguebreak exists.

Yeah; I was just going to say. If PB is still being run, this will be countered. If it becomes common, PB will be run

Pb is really only an issue for larger groups tbh, and those grps typically already have dedicated purgers anyway.

I see this "only impacts large group" stuff all the time but Cyrodiil all I see is large groups. And it doesn't take that much to have Plague Break do some nasty stuff and all I see zergs and ball groups mostly. So what are we saying this is not an issue with? Tower humpers? Often just ignore them or they get zerged down eventually and if this set helps them with that, fine.

Battlefields, this set can be an issue.

K9002

VixxVexx wrote: »

They haven't learned from Undertaker and Savage Werewolf. Not putting a cooldown on a set is generally a bad idea and can lead to stuff proccing multiple times per second.

Just put a 1-2 second cooldown on the first part of the set.

An example from Decimus' stream:

"We are committed to reducing the server calculations..."

neferpitou73

Plaguebreak

Sandman929

Plaguebreak isn't keeping this set in line...it's a 1vX set and Plaguebreak does nothing to 1

xylena_lazarow

It probably hasn't come up much because the blanket damage nerfs already plunge us into another boring tank meta, this set alone isn't sinking us further down. It is pretty ridiculous though, competitive fights will get even more boring, and it will no doubt start to draw complaints once randoms realize it's what the "unkillable" tower trolls are using.

doesurmindglow

Both this set and Nocturnal's are clearly beyond broken, and will need substantial adjustment if they go live.

The problem is it's hard to even talk about as it's increasingly unclear how long the game in general will survive with endgame PVE essentially collapsing entirely, guilds and prog groups disbanding, and the community slowly transitioning from outraged to despondent.

Put simply, yeah it's bad; it's too bad everything else is so much worse right now.

neferpitou73

Plaguebreak

Sandman929 wrote: »

Plaguebreak isn't keeping this set in line...it's a 1vX set and Plaguebreak does nothing to 1

You can't run it in a zerg is what I was implying. Which reduces its utility unless you're a ganker

FlamingBeard

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Yeah I've noticed. But most of the focus is on balance changes, so this going live for sure.
Tbh I don't 100% mind, it's a big middle finger to all the maarselok sweatlords out there xD.

Even with 2 sec on the heal

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem with the set is that it is going to cause players to blow themselves and their teams up when it autopurges Plaguebreak.

Sets/Skills that autopurge are just not desirable as long as Plaguebreak exists.

Yeah; I was just going to say. If PB is still being run, this will be countered. If it becomes common, PB will be run

Pfff, its not even close, what's the burst damage on Plaguebreak ATM? Its got a 20 sec CD now. Mara’s Balm proc will heal for 13K every 15 sec while also healing you for~ 2.1k every sec. And this under regular conditions. Templar running this outnumbered will have insane healing output.

Templar's cleanse is far too expensive to get much Healing Over Time from Mara's Balm. Rely on Extended Ritual re-casts for healing and your magicka pool will empty expeditiously.

I'd be more concerned about the auto-purge from Warden netch (also free to re-cast endlessly)

Other than those factors, Plaguebreak makes spamming purges counter-intuitive to survival when so many people run it.

Sandman929

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Plaguebreak

Sandman929 wrote: »

Plaguebreak isn't keeping this set in line...it's a 1vX set and Plaguebreak does nothing to 1

You can't run it in a zerg is what I was implying. Which reduces its utility unless you're a ganker

There are options between zerg and ganker.

Lughlongarm

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Yeah I've noticed. But most of the focus is on balance changes, so this going live for sure.
Tbh I don't 100% mind, it's a big middle finger to all the maarselok sweatlords out there xD.

Even with 2 sec on the heal

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem with the set is that it is going to cause players to blow themselves and their teams up when it autopurges Plaguebreak.

Sets/Skills that autopurge are just not desirable as long as Plaguebreak exists.

Yeah; I was just going to say. If PB is still being run, this will be countered. If it becomes common, PB will be run

Pfff, its not even close, what's the burst damage on Plaguebreak ATM? Its got a 20 sec CD now. Mara’s Balm proc will heal for 13K every 15 sec while also healing you for~ 2.1k every sec. And this under regular conditions. Templar running this outnumbered will have insane healing output.

Templar's cleanse is far too expensive to get much Healing Over Time from Mara's Balm. Rely on Extended Ritual re-casts for healing and your magicka pool will empty expeditiously.

I'd be more concerned about the auto-purge from Warden netch (also free to re-cast endlessly)

Other than those factors, Plaguebreak makes spamming purges counter-intuitive to survival when so many people run it.

I'm concerned about this set regardless to class, on templar it will perform the best(even better than Warden).

FrankonPC

A few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.



Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic

MentalxHammer

FrankonPC wrote: »

A few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.



Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic

Oh wow, I didn’t realize this set proc’d on negative effects ending, that’s just absurd. There’s so much wrong with that. Wearing this set will essentially make you invincible to anyone spamming crushing weapon, surprise attack, or any other spammable that produces a negative effect. Hitting a target with burning embers/venomous claw will basically heal your target with the status effect ending a few seconds later, not to mention the already gimped deep fissure will proc this twice every time it lands. That is beyond overpowered.

I’d need to test this, but with the sequence of how things go through the server you’d basically be invincible with sea serpents coil and this. Since sea serpents has no cooldown you could proc sea serpents, put the snare (negative effect) on yourself, top your HP off, get hit with 40% mitigation, take tiny damage, reapply the snare on yourself, heal from maras balm, repeat. You’d essentially be invincible with this combination. There is so much wrong with this set it’s sickening.

TechMaybeHic

FrankonPC wrote: »

A few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.



Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic

[snip] Are they thinking any of these sets through? Actually; maybe they are. Nerf light attacks, DOTs, HOTs. Then start pushing out sets. Lower the ceiling by making it to where you just equip a set to win.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Casdha

FrankonPC wrote: »

A few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.



Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic

Thanks for testing and answering some of my questions, even if you didn't intend too.

Now following that, in PvP, If you've got lets say a group surrounding you (without coordinating who fires what when) wouldn't these heals rise in proportion to attacks due to one persons attack restarting the negative effect timer on the last person's attack? (not to mention clearing them all and starting over every 15 seconds). Looks like groups would have to hit with lets say light attacks only, (without anything that would apply an effect) to bring this person down.


If so, this would be funny if the only folks who could beat it is a group of folks who only use light attacks and no rotations.

Forgive me, like I said it's been a while since I kept up with the ins and outs of how sets work.

jaws343

FrankonPC wrote: »

A few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.



Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic

That certainly changes things.

This would pair extremely well with Necro applying Defile to themselves on demand.

FrankonPC

Casdha wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

A few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.



Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic

Thanks for testing and answering some of my questions, even if you didn't intend too.

Now following that, in PvP, If you've got lets say a group surrounding you (without coordinating who fires what when) wouldn't these heals rise in proportion to attacks due to one persons attack restarting the negative effect timer on the last person's attack? (not to mention clearing them all and starting over every 15 seconds). Looks like groups would have to hit with lets say light attacks only, (without anything that would apply an effect) to bring this person down.


If so, this would be funny if the only folks who could beat it is a group of folks who only use light attacks and no rotations.

Forgive me, like I said it's been a while since I kept up with the ins and outs of how sets work.

So this is where it's tough to test on the pts. Each individual dot should be its own specific instance so 4 people spamming the same dot should refresh their dots and respective heals only. There's not really an open world pts to test and confirm this though, but that's how it should be.

They'll still do dmg to you w direct dmg effects, but the fact that you heal off cc break, snares, dot reapplications etc means your healing goes a lot further outnumbered than normal. I was almost staying topped off w my buddy spamming embers. I basically eliminated the burst aspect of the skill. I don't like to make definitive statements unless I do thorough tests, but unless I can get a group on pts there's not really a way to quantify its strength outnumbered. I'll try and get some duels in this weekend

FrankonPC

jaws343 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

A few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.



Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic

That certainly changes things.

This would pair extremely well with Necro applying Defile to themselves on demand.

Yes, necro purge also costs health so in theory you can make their purge free-ish

Necrotech_Master

interesting

im guessing "cooldown locks" such as kjalnar (you cant get new stacks from this for a few seconds after the proc happens) counts as a buff for you, not a negative effect

but it seems like "negative effect" is any effect that is counted as a debuff

i could see something like this being potent in PVE as well

like im not sure how this would work with enemies that have stacking dmg (like some poisons such as spiders in blackrose prison)

and technically in vmol twins when you get new head colors, the old ones are removed thus giving you a burst heal (that also isnt toned down by battle spirit)

ebix_

I think nocturnals ploy is so broken that overshadowed another broken set. tbh they should stop making pvp sets, [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Holycannoli

Unless they really gut Nocturnal's Ploy it will still be more annoying.

And I wonder how Mara's Balm will interact with Plaguebreak?