Trading: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow.

woufff

warlordangel wrote: »

woufff wrote: »

I absolutely love the current system, please do not change it. It's one of the reasons I love this game so much for so many years already

By the way, I'm in four trading guilds with almost no dues on both servers and all of them are always full with 500 guildies and a trader every week.

And no, I do not need to farm the whole day, just normal gameplay, daily writs & random dungeons
.

I have been seeing these comments an awfully lot but they add very little to the conversation or they simply do not clarify anything. What about it do you like? Why do you like it so much? If the need to keep up with quotas or there are soooo many guild who do not need to even institute dues and getting high end places is not an issue then what is the argument against auction houses.

You said yourself along with many other players that you just sell things as a normal course of game play. This is more of an argument for a neutral stand point if nothing else. In fact you sound as if you don't actually engage in trading all that much at all. So what is your argument? How are you against a change when it seems it would have very little impact on you. Would you really find it difficult to sell? To Buy?

[snip]

This stated, and on a more personal note, ESO is an exploration game for me and I like to go and explore the guild traders all over Tamriel. An auction house would take this away, beside all other arguments hundreds of people have already stated here. [snip]

Have fun anyway

[edited for baiting]

warlordangel

woufff wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

woufff wrote: »

I absolutely love the current system, please do not change it. It's one of the reasons I love this game so much for so many years already

By the way, I'm in four trading guilds with almost no dues on both servers and all of them are always full with 500 guildies and a trader every week.

And no, I do not need to farm the whole day, just normal gameplay, daily writs & random dungeons
.

I have been seeing these comments an awfully lot but they add very little to the conversation or they simply do not clarify anything. What about it do you like? Why do you like it so much? If the need to keep up with quotas or there are soooo many guild who do not need to even institute dues and getting high end places is not an issue then what is the argument against auction houses.

You said yourself along with many other players that you just sell things as a normal course of game play. This is more of an argument for a neutral stand point if nothing else. In fact you sound as if you don't actually engage in trading all that much at all. So what is your argument? How are you against a change when it seems it would have very little impact on you. Would you really find it difficult to sell? To Buy?

[snip]

This stated, and on a more personal note, ESO is an exploration game for me and I like to go and explore the guild traders all over Tamriel. An auction house would take this away, beside all other arguments hundreds of people have already stated here. [snip]

Have fun anyway

I have read other discussions. As far as I can tell from other threads they only started as a call for change or to complain about the current system. I tried to offer ideas and suggestions as well as to explain why I wanted a change as opposed just saying I wanted it. I opened this thread to hear and understand what people thought, why they did/didn't like the current trading system. I opened this thread to hear why people are so resistant to change. There have been a number of people who have contributed to this thread by sharing past experiences with auction housing and some have proposed changes that could be made.

But all you have to offer are generalities. An auction house would take it all away, how? The game is just an exploration game for me. Ok, so what would it matter? You like to explore other guild traders? Ok, but what if the information was easily pulled up at any trader?

P.S. I've played long enough to remember the veteran system, the CP system wasn't a thing yet, 2h weapons ruined the chance to have 2 5 piece sets equipped, and craglorn wasn't open to just anyone.

I may not have all the answers, and I may seem like just one more complainer, but that doesn't mean I should be denied the right to speak or be given meaningful answers or justification for the current system. If this thread is shut down because people have stated their reasons for keeping the current system as is then fine. I mean I'm gonna be salty no lies there but at least I will have something to think about when I go and reserve my pity party table for one. But for crying out loud don't just let it end with "Because I like it as is"

[edited to remove quote]

woufff

warlordangel wrote: »

woufff wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

woufff wrote: »

I absolutely love the current system, please do not change it. It's one of the reasons I love this game so much for so many years already

By the way, I'm in four trading guilds with almost no dues on both servers and all of them are always full with 500 guildies and a trader every week.

And no, I do not need to farm the whole day, just normal gameplay, daily writs & random dungeons
.

I have been seeing these comments an awfully lot but they add very little to the conversation or they simply do not clarify anything. What about it do you like? Why do you like it so much? If the need to keep up with quotas or there are soooo many guild who do not need to even institute dues and getting high end places is not an issue then what is the argument against auction houses.

You said yourself along with many other players that you just sell things as a normal course of game play. This is more of an argument for a neutral stand point if nothing else. In fact you sound as if you don't actually engage in trading all that much at all. So what is your argument? How are you against a change when it seems it would have very little impact on you. Would you really find it difficult to sell? To Buy?

[snip]

This stated, and on a more personal note, ESO is an exploration game for me and I like to go and explore the guild traders all over Tamriel. An auction house would take this away, beside all other arguments hundreds of people have already stated here. [snip]

Have fun anyway

I have read other discussions. As far as I can tell from other threads they only started as a call for change or to complain about the current system. I tried to offer ideas and suggestions as well as to explain why I wanted a change as opposed just saying I wanted it. I opened this thread to hear and understand what people thought, why they did/didn't like the current trading system. I opened this thread to hear why people are so resistant to change. There have been a number of people who have contributed to this thread by sharing past experiences with auction housing and some have proposed changes that could be made.

But all you have to offer are generalities. An auction house would take it all away, how? The game is just an exploration game for me. Ok, so what would it matter? You like to explore other guild traders? Ok, but what if the information was easily pulled up at any trader?

P.S. I've played long enough to remember the veteran system, the CP system wasn't a thing yet, 2h weapons ruined the chance to have 2 5 piece sets equipped, and craglorn wasn't open to just anyone.

I may not have all the answers, and I may seem like just one more complainer, but that doesn't mean I should be denied the right to speak or be given meaningful answers or justification for the current system. If this thread is shut down because people have stated their reasons for keeping the current system as is then fine. I mean I'm gonna be salty no lies there but at least I will have something to think about when I go and reserve my pity party table for one. But for crying out loud don't just let it end with "Because I like it as is"

Sorry If I came over a bit snobbish, it was not my intention to deny your right to speak out, even if I don't agree with you

ZOS is a commercial company, thus they want and need to make money. They're making money when people play their games. So, if the Guild Traders still exist as they are, this means that the majority of people think more or less like me and like the system. Believe me, if this would not be the case anymore, the actual system would be changed without asking me or anyone else if we like it or not

As I cannot understand why you and other people do not like it, you seem not be able to understand why people like me and other do like it, and I'm quite lazy in writing, so I will just leave it here and not explain again the many reasons in favour of our system today.

I can very well live with the idea that there also might be a lot of reasons for a central auction house, unfortunately I cannot think of a good one for me.



[edited to remove quote]

warlordangel

woufff wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

woufff wrote: »

I absolutely love the current system, please do not change it. It's one of the reasons I love this game so much for so many years already

By the way, I'm in four trading guilds with almost no dues on both servers and all of them are always full with 500 guildies and a trader every week.

And no, I do not need to farm the whole day, just normal gameplay, daily writs & random dungeons
.

I have been seeing these comments an awfully lot but they add very little to the conversation or they simply do not clarify anything. What about it do you like? Why do you like it so much? If the need to keep up with quotas or there are soooo many guild who do not need to even institute dues and getting high end places is not an issue then what is the argument against auction houses.

You said yourself along with many other players that you just sell things as a normal course of game play. This is more of an argument for a neutral stand point if nothing else. In fact you sound as if you don't actually engage in trading all that much at all. So what is your argument? How are you against a change when it seems it would have very little impact on you. Would you really find it difficult to sell? To Buy?

[snip]

This stated, and on a more personal note, ESO is an exploration game for me and I like to go and explore the guild traders all over Tamriel. An auction house would take this away, beside all other arguments hundreds of people have already stated here. [snip]

Have fun anyway

woufff wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

woufff wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

woufff wrote: »

I absolutely love the current system, please do not change it. It's one of the reasons I love this game so much for so many years already

By the way, I'm in four trading guilds with almost no dues on both servers and all of them are always full with 500 guildies and a trader every week.

And no, I do not need to farm the whole day, just normal gameplay, daily writs & random dungeons
.

I have been seeing these comments an awfully lot but they add very little to the conversation or they simply do not clarify anything. What about it do you like? Why do you like it so much? If the need to keep up with quotas or there are soooo many guild who do not need to even institute dues and getting high end places is not an issue then what is the argument against auction houses.

You said yourself along with many other players that you just sell things as a normal course of game play. This is more of an argument for a neutral stand point if nothing else. In fact you sound as if you don't actually engage in trading all that much at all. So what is your argument? How are you against a change when it seems it would have very little impact on you. Would you really find it difficult to sell? To Buy?

[snip]

This stated, and on a more personal note, ESO is an exploration game for me and I like to go and explore the guild traders all over Tamriel. An auction house would take this away, beside all other arguments hundreds of people have already stated here. [snip]

Have fun anyway

I have read other discussions. As far as I can tell from other threads they only started as a call for change or to complain about the current system. I tried to offer ideas and suggestions as well as to explain why I wanted a change as opposed just saying I wanted it. I opened this thread to hear and understand what people thought, why they did/didn't like the current trading system. I opened this thread to hear why people are so resistant to change. There have been a number of people who have contributed to this thread by sharing past experiences with auction housing and some have proposed changes that could be made.

But all you have to offer are generalities. An auction house would take it all away, how? The game is just an exploration game for me. Ok, so what would it matter? You like to explore other guild traders? Ok, but what if the information was easily pulled up at any trader?

P.S. I've played long enough to remember the veteran system, the CP system wasn't a thing yet, 2h weapons ruined the chance to have 2 5 piece sets equipped, and craglorn wasn't open to just anyone.

I may not have all the answers, and I may seem like just one more complainer, but that doesn't mean I should be denied the right to speak or be given meaningful answers or justification for the current system. If this thread is shut down because people have stated their reasons for keeping the current system as is then fine. I mean I'm gonna be salty no lies there but at least I will have something to think about when I go and reserve my pity party table for one. But for crying out loud don't just let it end with "Because I like it as is"

Sorry If I came over a bit snobbish, it was not my intention to deny your right to speak out, even if I don't agree with you

ZOS is a commercial company, thus they want and need to make money. They're making money when people play their games. So, if the Guild Traders still exist as they are, this means that the majority of people think more or less like me and like the system. Believe me, if this would not be the case anymore, the actual system would be changed without asking me or anyone else if we like it or not

As I cannot understand why you and other people do not like it, you seem not be able to understand why people like me and other do like it, and I'm quite lazy in writing, so I will just leave it here and not explain again the many reasons in favour of our system today.

I can very well live with the idea that there also might be a lot of reasons for a central auction house, unfortunately I cannot think of a good one for me.

Thank you very much for reaching out to me. People have devolving the conversation into a discussion about the difficulty of making money and that was never my intention. I keep trying to bring it back but it keeps snapping back to a conversation of well I make 750k weekly or my guild has no dues. Thats not what I was getting at.

I was part of guilds that did well. I sold in "Tamriel Wall Street", "Spirit Shields of Nirn" had traders and I sold in them, I was part of "Out-of-Connduct" and sold items hand over fist. When I was talking about dues, I wasn't talking about the difficulty in meeting them, I was talking about how it felt to feel like I constantly had to keep the income coming in to contribute to the trader to keep the cycle going (okay maybe that was me placing a little more pressure on myself than need be). But the heart of topic was the role in managing the guild trader.

My guild master for Spirit Shields spent hours before getting to actually play the game. She was record keeping sales and trying to forecast trader bids. This is of course only the most relevant actions to the discussion. There were also event planning such as auctions, raffles, and the furniture store. There was a lot to do and some of us tried to help. From what I had heard (hearsay) is that the guildmaster from "Spicy Burrito" had left the game due to the toxicity of the game, funding trader bids in large part herself, and the blowback when trader bids fall through. Sure its a little lemony snickets and bad luck, but still. My purpose wasn't from difficulty in selling, I just wanted to propose a new system or gather ideas to lessen the burden.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me, but if you would all just arbitrarily change your minds and just agree with me that would be great. But if you post to this thread or view this thread come and comment.

If you like the current system: Why? What do you like about it? Why does it work for you?
If you like the system but have concerns: What are they? What do you wish was added in?
If you don't like the system but are afraid or concerned with ramifications: What are they? What have you experienced that has you concerned?
If you don't like the system: What about it do you not like? What is your current experience? Do you have ideas you wished you could have voiced earlier?

Above all else...what does anybody think about my last idea? I just posted it last night and I kinda thought I was clever.

[edited to remove quote]

Karivaa

warlordangel wrote: »

So I am aware that many people are tired of hearing about the auction house debate, but I wanted to plead my case. I wanted to start off by describing my experience. I stopped playing Eso about a year ago and have been thinking of picking it back up, but every time I do I cringe at it. It is because of the trader system as it stands now. I played for years and for year it has been the same. I join a good strong guild like "Out-of-Conduct" on the playstation system. and I need to pay dues in order to stay. But, I have to continuously farm in order to pay my dues. It goes beyond that. I have to continuously farm to keep my slots full so I can make money to participate in the market place to buy goods. The cycle continuous as farm, pay dues, rinse and repeat. I felt like I had very little time to actually play the game itself and that I was paying to work. My old guild fell apart because of the record keeping involved with keeping track of sales, bids, and trying to forecast future bid prices and locations.

I don't really think anyone would lose out if the trader bids were taken out of the equation of gameplay. Current trader NPCs could be replaced in major locations or capitals cites, not just in Mournhold, with a central trading hub/ It could be spread out in major locations as to not have every player in the game converge on 1 location at any given time. Just think of a tent kinda bazaar style where trades could be dropped off. The NPCs could be races relevant to that region. Perhaps it could be overseen by imperials, the "Imperial Exchange". Wouldn't i be something if the event ticket trader woman ran this as a year-round career?

I was in a trader for years and didn’t farm and sold stuff. What level are you?

Shanee

My first thought is just simply, I love the eso trader system. It's unique and like no other on an mmorpg I've played before.

Secondly, is gold not already an issue? There's just too much of it! With removing guild traders, that's probably 100's of millions of gold not being removed from the game every week - What do you plan on adding to make sure this gold is still removed from the gane?

Will we need to pay 98% of the profit has a cut? Oh gosh.

---

Edit: Aah, I see you mentioned gold and how your only experience is Runescape and how that has a problem too. Ah yes. The game which was forced to hire professional real world economists to try help fix the mess they were in as they just kept making it worse and worse. Let's not try push ESO down that road.

CGPsaint

Centralizing the guild traders into an auction house would only make it easier for individuals or groups to corner and control the market. Hard pass.

wolfie1.0.

warlordangel wrote: »

So I am aware that many people are tired of hearing about the auction house debate, but I wanted to plead my case. I wanted to start off by describing my experience. I stopped playing Eso about a year ago and have been thinking of picking it back up, but every time I do I cringe at it. It is because of the trader system as it stands now. I played for years and for year it has been the same. I join a good strong guild like "Out-of-Conduct" on the playstation system. and I need to pay dues in order to stay. But, I have to continuously farm in order to pay my dues. It goes beyond that. I have to continuously farm to keep my slots full so I can make money to participate in the market place to buy goods. The cycle continuous as farm, pay dues, rinse and repeat. I felt like I had very little time to actually play the game itself and that I was paying to work. My old guild fell apart because of the record keeping involved with keeping track of sales, bids, and trying to forecast future bid prices and locations.

I don't really think anyone would lose out if the trader bids were taken out of the equation of gameplay. Current trader NPCs could be replaced in major locations or capitals cites, not just in Mournhold, with a central trading hub/ It could be spread out in major locations as to not have every player in the game converge on 1 location at any given time. Just think of a tent kinda bazaar style where trades could be dropped off. The NPCs could be races relevant to that region. Perhaps it could be overseen by imperials, the "Imperial Exchange". Wouldn't i be something if the event ticket trader woman ran this as a year-round career?

I fail to see how a GAH or any similar system would make a significant change to your predicament. You would still need gold to participate, and with a GAH that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be easier to come by. Nor does it mean that you would spend less time farming or spending gold you earned.

warlordangel

Karivaa wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

So I am aware that many people are tired of hearing about the auction house debate, but I wanted to plead my case. I wanted to start off by describing my experience. I stopped playing Eso about a year ago and have been thinking of picking it back up, but every time I do I cringe at it. It is because of the trader system as it stands now. I played for years and for year it has been the same. I join a good strong guild like "Out-of-Conduct" on the playstation system. and I need to pay dues in order to stay. But, I have to continuously farm in order to pay my dues. It goes beyond that. I have to continuously farm to keep my slots full so I can make money to participate in the market place to buy goods. The cycle continuous as farm, pay dues, rinse and repeat. I felt like I had very little time to actually play the game itself and that I was paying to work. My old guild fell apart because of the record keeping involved with keeping track of sales, bids, and trying to forecast future bid prices and locations.

I don't really think anyone would lose out if the trader bids were taken out of the equation of gameplay. Current trader NPCs could be replaced in major locations or capitals cites, not just in Mournhold, with a central trading hub/ It could be spread out in major locations as to not have every player in the game converge on 1 location at any given time. Just think of a tent kinda bazaar style where trades could be dropped off. The NPCs could be races relevant to that region. Perhaps it could be overseen by imperials, the "Imperial Exchange". Wouldn't i be something if the event ticket trader woman ran this as a year-round career?

I was in a trader for years and didn’t farm and sold stuff. What level are you?

I forget. Like Cp 1300-1400 or something like that.

warlordangel

Shanee wrote: »

My first thought is just simply, I love the eso trader system. It's unique and like no other on an mmorpg I've played before.

Secondly, is gold not already an issue? There's just too much of it! With removing guild traders, that's probably 100's of millions of gold not being removed from the game every week - What do you plan on adding to make sure this gold is still removed from the gane?

Will we need to pay 98% of the profit has a cut? Oh gosh.

---

Edit: Aah, I see you mentioned gold and how your only experience is Runescape and how that has a problem too. Ah yes. The game which was forced to hire professional real world economists to try help fix the mess they were in as they just kept making it worse and worse. Let's not try push ESO down that road.

I was kind of thinking that if bidding were put in, then perhaps players may have more agency in price control. For example in an auction style the listing price could be also be considered the asking price or starting point. Perhaps the idea may make the amount of gold irrelevant to a degree.

We could also consider how the government controls the money supply through fiscal policy. For example the Fed can lower the money supply by selling bonds to the Open Market. A lot of that does involve changing the federal funds rate. It could be a concept that if the global (server) gold supply was running to high then a portion could be removed and call it a tax. It might de incentivize career trading. That was messy idea, and probably poorly conceived.

What was Runescape's solution and how has it fared? The failures of others can serve as lessons for others.

warlordangel

CGPsaint wrote: »

Centralizing the guild traders into an auction house would only make it easier for individuals or groups to corner and control the market. Hard pass.

I never fully understood how that is. Are these specializing groups watching the market and buying up products sold at a lower price? Would being allowed to bid or make sales bid based curb this?

warlordangel

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

So I am aware that many people are tired of hearing about the auction house debate, but I wanted to plead my case. I wanted to start off by describing my experience. I stopped playing Eso about a year ago and have been thinking of picking it back up, but every time I do I cringe at it. It is because of the trader system as it stands now. I played for years and for year it has been the same. I join a good strong guild like "Out-of-Conduct" on the playstation system. and I need to pay dues in order to stay. But, I have to continuously farm in order to pay my dues. It goes beyond that. I have to continuously farm to keep my slots full so I can make money to participate in the market place to buy goods. The cycle continuous as farm, pay dues, rinse and repeat. I felt like I had very little time to actually play the game itself and that I was paying to work. My old guild fell apart because of the record keeping involved with keeping track of sales, bids, and trying to forecast future bid prices and locations.

I don't really think anyone would lose out if the trader bids were taken out of the equation of gameplay. Current trader NPCs could be replaced in major locations or capitals cites, not just in Mournhold, with a central trading hub/ It could be spread out in major locations as to not have every player in the game converge on 1 location at any given time. Just think of a tent kinda bazaar style where trades could be dropped off. The NPCs could be races relevant to that region. Perhaps it could be overseen by imperials, the "Imperial Exchange". Wouldn't i be something if the event ticket trader woman ran this as a year-round career?

I fail to see how a GAH or any similar system would make a significant change to your predicament. You would still need gold to participate, and with a GAH that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be easier to come by. Nor does it mean that you would spend less time farming or spending gold you earned.

A lot of the argument has to do with involvement of keeping this aspect of guild running less burdon some and time consuming. I did elaborate more later on, actually it was earlier on this page.

Mascen

IMO theres a viable middle ground between an auction house and the current status quo: Increasing the amount of guild traders at each hub, especially the alliance capitals.

As the game has gotten bigger and bigger over the years the trader problem has shrunk to the point that most of the smaller guilds can afford a trader. That being said, most of the random roadside and outlaws den traders dont get much traction if any. As such I'd also argue as part of the increase to move those traders in with the rest in the main zone locations.

CGPsaint

warlordangel wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Centralizing the guild traders into an auction house would only make it easier for individuals or groups to corner and control the market. Hard pass.

I never fully understood how that is. Are these specializing groups watching the market and buying up products sold at a lower price? Would being allowed to bid or make sales bid based curb this?

There are already people/groups who go around and buy up certain items to resell in order to control the market. With the current system, they have to travel from zone to zone, and trader to trader in order to make their purchases. With a centralized trader, they would just need to log in, search, and buy all from the same place. The current system is fine.

warlordangel

CGPsaint wrote: »

warlordangel wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Centralizing the guild traders into an auction house would only make it easier for individuals or groups to corner and control the market. Hard pass.

I never fully understood how that is. Are these specializing groups watching the market and buying up products sold at a lower price? Would being allowed to bid or make sales bid based curb this?

There are already people/groups who go around and buy up certain items to resell in order to control the market. With the current system, they have to travel from zone to zone, and trader to trader in order to make their purchases. With a centralized trader, they would just need to log in, search, and buy all from the same place. The current system is fine.

Which is why I proposed bidding as an answer. Perhaps revisiting the idea of instituting a ceiling.

Another option is to tweak the drop rate which would lessen the commodities intrinsic value.

Ph1p

Let’s talk about 3 aspects - the potential benefits of an auction house, possible drawbacks, and alternative improvements to address the problems you mentioned.

1) Auction house benefits

Higher transparency:
Today, players rely on add-ons like MM or ATT for actual sales data in the guilds they are a part of and Tamriel Trade Centre for a somewhat comprehensive overview of sales listings. A central auction house could provide full information end-to-end.

Broader access:
If you are not a member of a trading guild, your only option today is to sell via zone chat or to NPC traders (at ridiculously low prices). Depending on its design, a central auction house could allow everyone to post items for sale.

Simpler management:
Guild management and trader bids indeed eat up a significant amount of time and resources. I am a member of multiple trading guilds, each managing up to 500 members and checking their sales performance on a weekly basis. You could dispense with all of that, depending on the auction house is set up (see Access).

2) Auction house problems

Easier price fixing:
We already have attempts today with the current decentralized guild trader system to corner the market. But as others have mentioned, that would be a lot easier in a centralized system, where you don’t have to run to all ~200 guild traders in the game to capture all the supply.

Worse performance:
I can only speculate here, but I assume it will take a lot longer to parse through a server-wide sales database than the listings of a single guild trader. Every query would have to access the combined supply side of all traders in existence today plus additional traders drawn in by the easier access of an auction house.

Price homogeneity:
Not everyone will consider this a negative, but there would be a race to the bottom in terms of pricing. If you list even slightly above a certain floor price, you won’t sell at all, because somewhere someone will undercut you. Now this is great for the buyers, but it takes away from today’s nuances and playstyles, such as trader location and convenience, bargain-hunting, flipping, and so on.

Guild identity:
Trading guilds are distinct today also because of their unique traders and requirements. It’s a point of pride to set a new sales record or move up a tier in trader spots. If you set up a central auction house, what’s the purpose of trading guilds then? A reason guild leaders put so much time into this is because of the great communities they have built. How will these communities and their thousands of members be affected? My guilds offer trading and other gold-making tips, but also organize trial and dungeon runs, home furnishing competitions, guild auctions, and much more.

3) Alternative solutions

Guild tools:
I don’t understand why an MMO with a guild trading system makes it so hard for guild leaders to check how much their members have sold. Trading guilds should have an integrated sales view for guild masters, with a functionality to send a quota reminder or other guildwide mail, say, once a week (to avoid spam).

Integrated analytics:
Similarly, we should have some pricing information built into the game and not be reliant on 3rd party addons, which console players can’t access.

Better search and filter options:
Again, if you’re on PC or Mac you have access to addons to make it easier to find specific items or a good deal in a guild trader. But beginners and console players don’t.

Bidding functionality:
For completeness, let's talk about the bidding functionality that you described and wanted feedback on. I don’t see the point, to be honest. First, it makes no sense for the final bid to be above the asking price like in your inferno staff example. Why would you bid like that and not just buy the staff instead? Second, how does a seller get informed about bids? People can have up to 150 listings in 5 guilds and don’t want to receive a message every time someone bids on one of them. Third, if you are not notified, then you still need to review and micromanage them manually, which takes as much time as relisting an item.

Final thoughts

If your concern is with the complexity and time commitment of running a guild, then you should focus on and advocate for quality-of-life improvements for guild leaders. Also, the discussion keeps going back to the difficulty of making money, because that’s what your original post is all about. There is a whole paragraph about the need to “pay dues in order to stay”, “farm continuously”, and “keep my slots full so I can make money”, which leaves “very little time to actually play the game”. Only in the last sentence do you allude to how hard it for guild leaders to manage their communities.

Amottica

First off, no one needs to pay any dues. Joining a "good strong guild" does not mean it is the right guild for the player. I sell stuff just fine and do not pay dues. Even then, a guild I was in that did have dues for players that did not sell a small amount each week works well. If a player is not selling that small amount then why are they there? Granted, there are probably guilds that have higher requirements or always require dues, but that is a choice a player makes and agrees to. So that is not a real issue.

Even with anything that can be tossed in, the trading system for a game is such a small thing that it has never been something that affected me wanting to play it or not. If someone is truly hesitant and cringes at the idea of playing the game because of the trading system the game itself is clearly not a big draw to them.

Regardless, this is the trading system Zenimax has chosen, and until and unless server performance makes huge improvements consolidating trading to make it more centralized will not even be discussed at Zenimax due to the larger server load the larger searches will create.

kargen27

Basically you are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Actually works so well entire guilds are created around the market and a large number of players treat the market as end game content. And it can be end game content for players willing to put in the time. It also allows new and entry level players to participate.

End game traders put as much time and effort into getting good at trading as some players put in trying to make leader boards or complete trifectas in trials. They make tons of gold because they put in tons of effort. For them that effort is actually what makes the game fun and worth playing. So why take that away just to be like every other MMO?

The elite traders existing do not stop other players from also participating in trading. Many guilds have a trader regularly and have no dues. Even without a trader you can use the guild store to sell to other members of your guild. And there is always hawking your wares out on the street (zone chat) if you only occasionally have items to sell. All players can trade and there is a level for new and elite players with everything in between.

The economy is healthy. There are no monopolies and no serious manipulation of the market. Any manipulation only lasts maybe a day or two and is usually the result of players wanting new items immediately willing to pay high prices for those items.
The market ebbs and flows with supply and demand indicating a healthy economy. Most players no matter their level can purchase everything they need and most of what they want at decent prices. Some of the rare items prices reflect the challenge it takes to acquire them in game. That also indicates a well running economy.

It isn't broken so why insist on fixing the economy? Sure there could be some quality of life improvements especially for console players but the drastic changes people are asking for in this thread are not needed.

Northwold

People who assert that the system "isn't broken" do need to bear in mind that not every player plays the game the same way they do.

One particular problem that the current trading system brings up is that it cuts solo players off from any sensible mechanism to sell stuff (no, spamming zone chat is not a sensible selling mechanism).

These people do not want to join guilds and will not join guilds. They want to play solo, they want to play casually. It's completely irrelevant that you don't understand why they won't join guilds; they won't.

No, this does not mean they are "lazy". They may spend a lot of time in the game. They may grind resources. They may spend ridiculous amounts of time stealing to make gold.

This is not a negligible proportion of players, although solo players are very underrepresented on this forum. As you might well expect, given that this forum is full of people who are very hardcore ESO players indeed.

Three problems, really, arise with how the system is set up.

1) Guilds must bid for trading spots. There are no general trading spots for guilds that don't pay rent, such as pooled traders for "pauper" guilds, at which sellers are charged a high tax so that they're not in competition with sales by the "hardcore" guilds (although at that point the only reason for linking the pooled traders to guilds at all would be to appease fanatical players who simply refuse all change -- guild membership would become even more of an artificial and completely unnecessary gate).

Because guilds must bid, guilds often have to charge dues to their members to be able to afford the bids. That necessitates an active membership and means guilds need to kick people who dip in and out. Even if a solo player were willing to join a guild in principle if it were a mere formality, that need for activity effectively makes guilds a non-starter for them.

2) The very low guild member limit, again, necessitates guilds weeding out players who are relatively inactive. Again, that alienates more casual solo players who will find themselves spending all their time applying to guilds. And they won't, because that is not how they want to play.

3) The prices in the player economy, particularly on PC, are ludicrously out of line with the prices you get for selling things in the game world itself. That 100 gold sword that you could sell for 20,000 at a trader. That crafting material that sells for 5 gold in the game but 2,000 gold at a trader.

So solo players have no way to keep track with the kinds of prices that are a feature of the player economy. They are effectively cut off from buying from other players with any degree of regularity because they cannot make enough gold. (And to those who say "well make 18 characters and do crafting writs", go have a look at reddit or steam and see how many people actually do that. When account wide achievements came out, the reaction there to people running multiple characters was overwhelmingly "why would anyone be so ridiculous", *not* "oh yes I run crafting writs on all my 18 characters every single day, don't we all?" Much as these forums might make you feel otherwise, you are in a minority and honestly it is pretty strange to take such a mechanical and repetitious approach to a computer game.)

And fine, you might think. It doesn't matter that they can't keep track with player economy pricing because they play solo and so don't really need anything that they could get from the player economy, anyway.

Well, no, actually. Because various parts of the game that are very obviously solo nonetheless depend on being able to access the player economy -- to buy stuff -- to be playable. Stuff that is ridiculously, ridiculously expensive to solo players because player economy pricing is so out of whack.

Nowhere is that more obvious than with housing, the ne plus ultra of ESO solo activities. You are not going to get very far with housing, unless you want to spend literally two years furnishing every house or spend hundreds or thousands of pounds / euros / dollars in the crown store, if you cannot buy furnishing plans, crafting materials, and so on.

There is a real problem with the way trading is set up that makes playing parts of the game actively unpleasant for solo players who will not join guilds. These players exist, whether you like it or not -- and your judgment on their personal virtues is neither here nor there (indeed, if you derive a sense of pride for being more hardcore than anyone else in a video game it might be better to keep that to yourself) -- and represent a significant proportion of the player base.

It really needs to be addressed.

And at the end of the day, anyway, who actually likes this system in the real world beyond the people on this forum and the tiny minority of players who have made guild trading their in game life? The purported premise for guild trading of having to shop around is plain silly in the first place -- why would anyone consider running around the entire continent one painful loading screen at a time looking for a rare item fun -- and plain doesn't work on PC since Tamriel Trade Centre arrived.

So what on earth is the point of it? To force the bulk of your player base to go through a pointless hoop so they spend more time in the game? Is that really desirable when the reason they're spending more time in the game isn't that they're *having fun* but because they are having needless mechanics that are actively irritating thrown in their faces? "How do i fancy spending my Sunday? Hmm, I know, why don't I spend three hours visiting every trader in Tamriel and running the same database search over and over again. That sounds like fantastic fun."

Look around, Google it. When people talk about which MMO to play, ESO's guild trader system is regularly cited. As an annoying negative of ESO compared to everyone else.

warlordangel

I think the current problem with this thread right now isn't so much the trading system in and of itself. I know multiple people have their opinions on it. This thread has about 1.7k viewers but like what 80 replies? I would be very appreciative if we could get more people to weigh in. Right now I think I am only attracting people on the far ends of the spectrum. I mean I suppose that is to be expected, this isn't a very exciting topic and may be rather tiresome to read.

Many of my readers seem to still play. I stopped a year ago because of what seemed like endless obligations. I will not lie that maybe I have put too much pressure on myself when maybe I didn't need to, but I know I am not alone in feeling that way even as a single person. A single person, not a single player, just me and how I have viewed the issue.

I have read other threads before posting this one and I saw them devolve into bickering and slander, not to mention that it just seemed to be opened for the sake of complaining and noone really put anything constructive into the conversation from the start.

What does everyone think about seeing if people in our guilds or former players would like to post and share their thoughts? It's not a poll, but a chance to speak. People leave for a variety of reasons, changing into an auction will most undoubtedly cause people to leave. But people have already left due to the current system, its just the way things go.

What do we think of reaching out to people, not to argue but to share their experiences and opinions. There was a quote in one of my textbooks something to the effect of, "the collective wisdom is superior to the individual." It was in financial trading and markets book i think. Anyways, I'm off to work, I'll check in when I get home.

TheGreatBlackBear

The same ones that say they like this silly system as is and we don't we don't need a global auction house are the ones with a price checker on their phone, a bot in their discord and an addon which tells them where to buy good at the cheapest prices, and how much the item are going for so they don't lose money when listing themselves. Make it make sense please.

Vulkunne

warlordangel wrote: »

So I am aware that many people are tired of hearing about the auction house debate, but I wanted to plead my case. I wanted to start off by describing my experience. I stopped playing Eso about a year ago and have been thinking of picking it back up, but every time I do I cringe at it. It is because of the trader system as it stands now. I played for years and for year it has been the same. I join a good strong guild like "Out-of-Conduct" on the playstation system. and I need to pay dues in order to stay. But, I have to continuously farm in order to pay my dues. It goes beyond that. I have to continuously farm to keep my slots full so I can make money to participate in the market place to buy goods. The cycle continuous as farm, pay dues, rinse and repeat. I felt like I had very little time to actually play the game itself and that I was paying to work. My old guild fell apart because of the record keeping involved with keeping track of sales, bids, and trying to forecast future bid prices and locations.

I don't really think anyone would lose out if the trader bids were taken out of the equation of gameplay. Current trader NPCs could be replaced in major locations or capitals cites, not just in Mournhold, with a central trading hub/ It could be spread out in major locations as to not have every player in the game converge on 1 location at any given time. Just think of a tent kinda bazaar style where trades could be dropped off. The NPCs could be races relevant to that region. Perhaps it could be overseen by imperials, the "Imperial Exchange". Wouldn't i be something if the event ticket trader woman ran this as a year-round career?

So here's my stance on this.

I tried several times to build a Guild and the vision was to just have like a fun, casual place for people to find a group for PvE and do some trading as well. Alas, I could not make anything happen because in both instances, no one else cared and no one else was willing to put forth any risk into the venture.

Therefore, changes were made.

Others have already built better, stronger and faster trade guilds that are here to stay. Let them handle the heavy lifting. I'm an opportunist now that surfs the market and I know for the most part what items to invest in and how to find them. Primarily overtime I have dealt in motifs and materials. However that only goes so far. There are other more exclusive items worth millions and for a couple months I was able to sell those regularly after couple months with no sales to speak of.

Some problems you and I cannot solve ourselves, so its best to just take the money and avoid being stepped on. I own the ladder it does not own me and that is the difference between now and then. Best of luck.

Zulera301

As someone who plays FFXIV which has a centralized market I can tell you right now that it's SUPER easy for a rich player to corner the market on an item and manipulate the prices to their advantage. The undercut wars are fierce, but the sweaties and the people who have plenty of time on their hands will always win that battle. I know this, because I'm a rich player that absolutely has the ability to monopolize items in a centralized market, while in ESO if I wanted to do that I would have to visit like 260 traders or use TTC website or something.

now, the fact that FFXIV has a built in price check AND sales history tool is something ZOS could really stand to take a lesson from so that we don't need 2+ addons just for basic functions, but the guild traders are fine. Maybe add a few more to work as an even better gold sink, since they're not adding any more gold-sink houses, $ince they want to do crown sink$ instead.

JKorr

Alchemical wrote: »

True. One of the bigger issues I think has less to do with price fixing and is more motivating solo players to adapting to a group-based market system. I think because ones that accommodate single players are so common in other MMOS and it's what everyone's use to it can be hard to change minds about it. The convenience of not having any ties or social obligations in order to convert unwanted items to profit is admittedly a nice convenience when nobody is using cheesy tactics. Even then, I kept leather of all levels in stock at a consistent price and was still paying for whatever my competitors were trying to sell in my attempts to drive them off; to some people that is still the lesser evil compared to ESO's current system. I won't begrudge them that opinion either, it's a perfectly valid one, just not one I share.

I think giving visibility to other trade guilds outside firmly established ones will help, and I think there's should be emphasis on explaining how working together to grow it as a business can be a rewarding type of gameplay rather than think of trade guilds as just something to spend one of your limited guild slots on so that you can sell things. It's an image problem and ESO doesn't explain it, much like it doesn't explain many of its other more complicated systems, which leads to people not engaging with it. It needs that 'new to beginner' onboarding I mentioned to get more players and more of their hoarded materials into the market at those lower levels to keep competition healthy and players engaged with the system.

Obviously even still that's not going to satisfy people who simply do not want to 'play' any kind of market whatsoever, they just want to shrug off their goods for more than vendor price. Maybe if there was some kind of NPC vendor (I would still keep them region exclusive personally to avoid complete centralization) who would sell items from anyone but take a more substantial cut than guild traders and/or you only could list one item at a time versus 30, that might be a decent compromise. It would still make guilds categorically the better option for people who wanted to trade often, but give people a way to get rid of their spare odds and ends for more than 10g at a vendor while giving them a taste of what the economy is like if they want to pivot into more serious trading. Such a volatile side market might even help to curb inflation by giving people with less economic investment some pull when it came to pricing. I'd probably watch such a vendor eagerly to snipe things, which would result in more of my 'big trader' gold getting spread around to little guys. But I could also see it destabilizing the whole system if it became the 'defacto' way to sell despite its draw backs, so I'm not sure if it's an idea worth pushing.

I am currently in 5 player guilds. One is a "trading" guild, where the focus is actually trading. There are no dues or required sales. Optional raffle and intermittent auctions, optional participation. Only obligation is to log in every 2 weeks/let the gm know you'll be away so don't kick please. The other 4 guilds are primarily social guilds with no dues, no "gotta be on at X time and participate in Y trial/pledge/battleground", no real demand to be social and interactive, actually; and 3 of them have traders. The one that doesn't never tried for one, no one is interested in trading for profit. How much more casual can the system get? Everyone that wants to try trading in my guilds can, with no pressure to keep slots filled, farm mats constantly, or do "end game content" to get drops that sells for billions and billions. No gm or guildmate dictates what price an item should be, so pricing low to sell fast is very possible. So no obligation, no dues, no written on daedra skin parchment signed in blood contracts, no need to actually chat with people, allowed to sell as many or as few items as you want, priced how you want, is not casual enough to allow people who don't want to play the market to participate. If the current system isn't casual enough, I'm not sure what system would be. A centralized always have to undercut price to sell your stuff auctionhouse/trader wouldn't help those players either.

kargen27

"One particular problem that the current trading system brings up is that it cuts solo players off from any sensible mechanism to sell stuff (no, spamming zone chat is not a sensible selling mechanism).

These people do not want to join guilds and will not join guilds. They want to play solo, they want to play casually. It's completely irrelevant that you don't understand why they won't join guilds; they won't."

Solo players are not going to have access to trials and other content either. The trading system is as much a part of the game as PvP or trials. If a player chooses not to participate that is on them.

It is very easy to find a guild that usually has a trader and charges no dues. I'm in one now on the EU server (my main server is US) that has only one requirement. Log in at least once every two weeks.

One change I would like to see is more traders added to the game. Not in the major hubs but out and about in the world. I would like to see another trader added in all the places where only one trader exists. So two traders in thieves dens, beside wayshrines and things like that. Maybe more players would be willing to hit the out of the way locations if there was more than one trader to visit.

I still like the idea of a central board in each zone that will show items for sale within that zone and where they are located. Prices would not be included. Only the item and where it is located. That way players just wanting something with no care for price can go to the most convenient location and purchase the item. Players that want a bargain will have to visit all the traders that have the item listed to find the best price. You would be unable to purchase from the central board. It would be information only and the player would need to go to the actual trader to purchase an item.

Northwold

kargen27 wrote: »

Solo players are not going to have access to trials and other content either. The trading system is as much a part of the game as PvP or trials. If a player chooses not to participate that is on them.

On this point only, worth pointing out that this is a false equivalence because trials are a stand alone feature of the game. The player economy, meanwhile, plugs in to other features of the game and some of them in essence depend on it to be usable. While some people treat it as a gameplay component, it is in no way equivalent to, say, a chapter or a dungeon (or, yes, a trial). It is also a back end system.

kargen27

Northwold wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Solo players are not going to have access to trials and other content either. The trading system is as much a part of the game as PvP or trials. If a player chooses not to participate that is on them.

On this point only, worth pointing out that this is a false equivalence because trials are a stand alone feature of the game. The player economy, meanwhile, plugs in to other features of the game and some of them in essence depend on it to be usable. While some people treat it as a gameplay component, it is in no way equivalent to, say, a chapter or a dungeon (or, yes, a trial). It is also a back end system.

Correct to a point but my premise still stands. The player is making a conscious decision not to participate. You can join a trade guild that has zero requirements and play solo if you wish. You do not have to interreact with guild mates in any way. I see no reason to change a system that works well and is considered by many to be one of the best features of the game because others do not want to participate in even the most miniscule of ways.

warlordangel

I would also like to point out that a lot of the non-obligation trader guilds seem like very isolated instances. Most guilds I see are dues based. Secondly, where is your guildmaster getting the gold and how do they feel about it? Is this enjoyable for them?

Northwold

kargen27 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Solo players are not going to have access to trials and other content either. The trading system is as much a part of the game as PvP or trials. If a player chooses not to participate that is on them.

On this point only, worth pointing out that this is a false equivalence because trials are a stand alone feature of the game. The player economy, meanwhile, plugs in to other features of the game and some of them in essence depend on it to be usable. While some people treat it as a gameplay component, it is in no way equivalent to, say, a chapter or a dungeon (or, yes, a trial). It is also a back end system.

Correct to a point but my premise still stands. The player is making a conscious decision not to participate. You can join a trade guild that has zero requirements and play solo if you wish. You do not have to interreact with guild mates in any way. I see no reason to change a system that works well and is considered by many to be one of the best features of the game because others do not want to participate in even the most miniscule of ways.

As I said above, casting judgment on people who play differently from you as if one type of player is a superior being to the other gets this debate absolutely nowhere (you just invite similar sentiments back, most especially because we are talking here about how a video game -- a toy -- is set up). The fact is, those players exist and to them -- they are also "many" -- the trading system is considered one of the *worst* features of the game.

They have different views on what constitutes a worthwhile experience to yours. And yes, you can dismiss their views, but that is not argument and that is not discussion. That is just saying "my view is better than yours".

Ph1p

warlordangel wrote: »

I would also like to point out that a lot of the non-obligation trader guilds seem like very isolated instances. Most guilds I see are dues based.

Yes, many - perhaps even most - guilds have sales quotas or other requirements to make it easier to finance their trader of choice. However, as many others have pointed out here, there are lots of options with very low or even no obligations, be they financial, social, or otherwise. You can easily pick one from the Guild Finder, which even has an option to filter for casual trading guilds. So even if they constitute a minority, casual no-fee guilds exist, are looking for members, and can be readily joined.

warlordangel wrote: »

Secondly, where is your guildmaster getting the gold and how do they feel about it? Is this enjoyable for them?

For obvious reasons guild trader bids are a closely guarded secret, but you can get an idea of their magnitude from stories like this or this.

A key element is that the 3.5% tax income from sales are typically not enough to finance a steady guild trader. So guilds rely on voluntary donations, raffles/lotteries, auctions (just another form of donation), etc. to keep up their bids. Is this enjoyable? The administrative part of reminding people of quotas and removing inactive players, for which ESO provides no quality-of-life tools and where guild leaders receive lots of hate and toxicity, surely isn't. The feeling of accomplishment and sense of community - maybe